Syed J Hussain February 15, 2005
#1 Posted by temporal on February 15, 2005 10:21:20 am
ijmaa and ijtihad is called for...
Hajj in present context is an outdated concept
and
a revenue grab by the protectors of the harmain;)
Hajj in present context is an outdated concept
and
a revenue grab by the protectors of the harmain;)
#2 Posted by vertex on February 15, 2005 12:17:22 pm
temporal,
``Hajj in present context is an outdated concept``
No, what IS getting outdated (and fast) is taking any and all Islamic traditions and slapping the label ``outdated`` on them. Even the ones that quite frankly are hard to object to!
If you fear about Haj being a money grab, then let`s get rid of the self-proclaimed ``protectors``. They have nothing to do with Haj anyway....
``Hajj in present context is an outdated concept``
No, what IS getting outdated (and fast) is taking any and all Islamic traditions and slapping the label ``outdated`` on them. Even the ones that quite frankly are hard to object to!
If you fear about Haj being a money grab, then let`s get rid of the self-proclaimed ``protectors``. They have nothing to do with Haj anyway....
#3 Posted by nasah on February 15, 2005 1:31:50 pm
Kul tawaf-e Kaaba meiN poochaa ye dil se zuhn nay
buutt gaye iss ghar se buutt-khana parasti ruh gaiee
buutt gaye iss ghar se buutt-khana parasti ruh gaiee
#4 Posted by temporal on February 15, 2005 2:01:39 pm
daktar sahib aap nay theek tashkhis ki
humaray Huzoor nay teen sO saath bo`ot saaf kardyay
aur hum kumnaseebOn nay kaaba kO bo`ot bana dya
humaray Huzoor nay teen sO saath bo`ot saaf kardyay
aur hum kumnaseebOn nay kaaba kO bo`ot bana dya
#5 Posted by syedjaved on February 17, 2005 4:40:28 am
Dear Temporal- Now it lies on us to take up the task of putting things in right order. But how should we do this? Only through love, spirit of accommodation, and kind words we can put our meanings across to hostile listeners. In the present context it has become our abiding responsibility to do this as violence, murder, and plunder perpetrated by irrational, biggotted and semiliterate mullah has really earned bad name to Islam and done a great disservice to Islam. We need to revive prestine teachings of Islam and bring forth real beauty of the teachings of Islam which inculcate only love, peace, serenity, wisdom and prosperity and promotes human civilisation divorced from all kinds of coercion and intimidation. May God we realise this!
#6 Posted by syedjaved on February 17, 2005 4:49:13 am
Re: # 1 How can you say tht it is an outdated idea? Pl clarify. No believing Muslim can say this. This is one of the pillars of Islam.
#7 Posted by syedjaved on February 17, 2005 4:54:47 am
Re: # 2 How can you say tht it is an outdated idea? Pl clarify. No believing Muslim can say this. This is one of the pillars of Islam.
#8 Posted by djkewl on February 19, 2005 7:06:04 am
i think the basic idea (purpose) behind this great yearly event was for the muslims to interact with each other and discuss their problems. But with the time it became a ritual as other religions pilgrimages. since ajamis cant interact with arabs because of language and in the eyes of arabs; ajamis are 2nd class muslims (like in pakistan we treat pathan laborers).
#9 Posted by syedjaved on February 20, 2005 1:42:51 am
Re: # 8 Yes, You have got it right. I must point out, as you already know, that Islam does not make any distinction among humanbeings on the basis of cast, clour, creed and profession. If we do so we are doing so under the influence of other ideologies or cultures we interact with. Islamic teachings are very clear. Labourers are hightly respected people because they swet out and earn their livings with honest labour. We have been ordained to perform hajj if we are able to do so once in our lives. We must do this. It entirely depends on us how good we are to benefit from Hajj in changing times as Ummah in the best manners.
#10 Posted by teshah on February 24, 2005 5:25:06 pm
A Punjabi poet had said: -
Pathar di pooja hondi e ki kahbe ki but khane
Faraq sirf enaN e ik gharhiae ik ungharhia e
(Black stone is worshipped both in Kahba and Butkhana, the only difference being that the black
Stone in Kahba is unchiselled whereas the one in Butkhana, `the Shivling` is the chiselled one.)
They play with the Satan by throwing small pebbles on its granite idol, rather three of them, now
converted into just a wall, in this age when an atom bomb can finish all these satans.
My question is why is it that the greatest leaders of the Indian Muslims, Quaide Azam and Allama Iqbal
did not perform either Haj or Umra. All those `leaders` who came afterwards performed the ritual as their first priority. They were all selfish and selfseekers
like all hajies. They even started performing Haj and Umra at public expence. What a joke they have
made of this ritual which in any case has a pagan origin. The only difference Islam made is treating it as
Qibla No.2, Qibla awwal being still the BeitulMaqdas.
At the end I may requrst that chowk should not be allowed to be made a forum for such `tableeghi`
Articles which may draw criticism not palatable to the religion-mongers.
Pathar di pooja hondi e ki kahbe ki but khane
Faraq sirf enaN e ik gharhiae ik ungharhia e
(Black stone is worshipped both in Kahba and Butkhana, the only difference being that the black
Stone in Kahba is unchiselled whereas the one in Butkhana, `the Shivling` is the chiselled one.)
They play with the Satan by throwing small pebbles on its granite idol, rather three of them, now
converted into just a wall, in this age when an atom bomb can finish all these satans.
My question is why is it that the greatest leaders of the Indian Muslims, Quaide Azam and Allama Iqbal
did not perform either Haj or Umra. All those `leaders` who came afterwards performed the ritual as their first priority. They were all selfish and selfseekers
like all hajies. They even started performing Haj and Umra at public expence. What a joke they have
made of this ritual which in any case has a pagan origin. The only difference Islam made is treating it as
Qibla No.2, Qibla awwal being still the BeitulMaqdas.
At the end I may requrst that chowk should not be allowed to be made a forum for such `tableeghi`
Articles which may draw criticism not palatable to the religion-mongers.
#11 Posted by syedjaved on February 25, 2005 9:03:28 am
Re: # 10 Dear Teshah,
Whatever we do we cannot do away with religion in our lives. Every one is following some sort of set of rules. Even those who claim to be secular even in their personal lives they follow certain set of rules in their life. So why to be angry on people who follow Islam as their mode of life. The article hints are one aspect of Islam. The occasion of Hajj that is not being utilize fully by Ummah. It does not censore anyother religion. I pray to Almighty God be kind on all humanity and bring the light and peace of Islam to all. Unfortunately certain elements within the community of Islam, who are in acute minority, who have acted rashly and earned bad name to Islam. Islam itself should not be discounted for their deeds.
You call for banishing all such articles from Chowk. What kind of wisdom is this? Is this the freedom of expression secular persons like you propound and support? We as humanbeings should not hate other people because of their beliefs. This is the message of Islam which has temporarily been lost upon the world at large. I wish you all the best and request you to kindly reread the article and comment upon its contents without allowing your personal bias interfere with your reading. Good Luck!
Whatever we do we cannot do away with religion in our lives. Every one is following some sort of set of rules. Even those who claim to be secular even in their personal lives they follow certain set of rules in their life. So why to be angry on people who follow Islam as their mode of life. The article hints are one aspect of Islam. The occasion of Hajj that is not being utilize fully by Ummah. It does not censore anyother religion. I pray to Almighty God be kind on all humanity and bring the light and peace of Islam to all. Unfortunately certain elements within the community of Islam, who are in acute minority, who have acted rashly and earned bad name to Islam. Islam itself should not be discounted for their deeds.
You call for banishing all such articles from Chowk. What kind of wisdom is this? Is this the freedom of expression secular persons like you propound and support? We as humanbeings should not hate other people because of their beliefs. This is the message of Islam which has temporarily been lost upon the world at large. I wish you all the best and request you to kindly reread the article and comment upon its contents without allowing your personal bias interfere with your reading. Good Luck!
#12 Posted by teshah on February 25, 2005 4:16:52 pm
Re: # 11
I am sorry dear if you took me as biased against Islamic ritualists. I did not criticize Islam as such, but I cannot conceal my revulsion against certain ritualistic practices which I consider paganistic and against the spirit of Islam which you call `Touheed``. I am not a `Secularist` if you mean it to be `Laadeen` but I do believe that Truth, Morality and `Aql` are above `Faith` or `Aqeeda`. The rise and fall of any `Umma`is determined by these principles and not by ritualism and schavinistic sectarianism. So when you talk of Touheed and ritualism bordering on `Shirk` in the same breath you are obviously contradicting yourself and insulting reason or Aql and thus close the door on discussion. This is what all religionists do. They construct their own reality on the basis of their `Aqeeda` and then call it `Mukammal Zabitae Hayyat`. So thought the paganistic Arabs but the Quran broke their atomized belief with the power of reason (Braaheen) and caused the explosion of Islam releasing the power which with passage of time got solidified into ritualism of today, manifested in its worst form in the Pakland.
.
I am sorry dear if you took me as biased against Islamic ritualists. I did not criticize Islam as such, but I cannot conceal my revulsion against certain ritualistic practices which I consider paganistic and against the spirit of Islam which you call `Touheed``. I am not a `Secularist` if you mean it to be `Laadeen` but I do believe that Truth, Morality and `Aql` are above `Faith` or `Aqeeda`. The rise and fall of any `Umma`is determined by these principles and not by ritualism and schavinistic sectarianism. So when you talk of Touheed and ritualism bordering on `Shirk` in the same breath you are obviously contradicting yourself and insulting reason or Aql and thus close the door on discussion. This is what all religionists do. They construct their own reality on the basis of their `Aqeeda` and then call it `Mukammal Zabitae Hayyat`. So thought the paganistic Arabs but the Quran broke their atomized belief with the power of reason (Braaheen) and caused the explosion of Islam releasing the power which with passage of time got solidified into ritualism of today, manifested in its worst form in the Pakland.
.
#13 Posted by syedjaved on February 27, 2005 1:51:06 am
Re: # 12 Dear Tesha, No religion is without rituals so why to blame Islam for sanctifying certain rituals. Hajj these days is being performed according to the sayings and practice of Holy Prophet PBUH. We can however augument the utility of Hajj in the light of teachings of Islam in the changing times perticulary now when Ummah is facing challenges of unknown magnitude.
We are from God and we will certainly return to Him. This phase we call life is very important because the fruit of this life is eternal blessings or curse for us. We need to spend it only or try to spend it the way God ordained for us. Our Aql is to help us in this regard which we call ``the hidden prophet` in us. We are free to choose the path to Hell or Heaven. There is no compulsion in Islam. We must respect ``signs of God`` as in the Quran God says respecting signs of God is great and bebeficial for us. The Quran has named many things as signs of God such as Safa and Marwa, black stone etc.
Isam does offer a code of ethics to spend life peacefully. It is complete code of life to those who accept it as such. It does not forces itself on other people and those who are doing so in the name of Islam they are doing a great disservice to Islam and are earning nothing but wrath of God because they are acting completely against the spirit of Islam.
I respect your opinion and have not taken any offence. I appreciate your criticism.
We are from God and we will certainly return to Him. This phase we call life is very important because the fruit of this life is eternal blessings or curse for us. We need to spend it only or try to spend it the way God ordained for us. Our Aql is to help us in this regard which we call ``the hidden prophet` in us. We are free to choose the path to Hell or Heaven. There is no compulsion in Islam. We must respect ``signs of God`` as in the Quran God says respecting signs of God is great and bebeficial for us. The Quran has named many things as signs of God such as Safa and Marwa, black stone etc.
Isam does offer a code of ethics to spend life peacefully. It is complete code of life to those who accept it as such. It does not forces itself on other people and those who are doing so in the name of Islam they are doing a great disservice to Islam and are earning nothing but wrath of God because they are acting completely against the spirit of Islam.
I respect your opinion and have not taken any offence. I appreciate your criticism.
#14 Posted by teshah on February 28, 2005 4:38:04 pm
Re: # 13
Thank you dear Javed. The tragedy is that the religion without a living prophet becomes a sword in the hands of tyrants and obscurantists. They are by their nature anti-human and anti-prophet. They don`t tolerate even those who relate themselves to the prophet and are targetting peoples whom they even suspect to be his progeny. For them the black stone which they call with Arabic name as ``Hajre Aswad`` (though they have converted Arabic `Salat` into a persian `Namaz`)is a divine being but even the progeny of the prophet are `Kafirs`and `Wajibul-qatl`. So what are the signs of Allah. Isn`t the Adam the greatest sign of Allah Who had cursed Iblees for refusing to prostrate before him. At least so says the Quran which they profess to believe. So is not the Man , the progeny of adam, the greatest sign of Allah. What the greatest humanist of all times Bulle Shah had said:-
``Masjid, dha de , mandir dha de, dha de jo kujh dhenda
ik bande da dil nah dhaweeN Rab dillaN wich rehnda``
(Destroy all false signs of God but don`t blaspheme against the man as God does not live in masjid or mandir but in the heart of the man).
Thank you dear Javed. The tragedy is that the religion without a living prophet becomes a sword in the hands of tyrants and obscurantists. They are by their nature anti-human and anti-prophet. They don`t tolerate even those who relate themselves to the prophet and are targetting peoples whom they even suspect to be his progeny. For them the black stone which they call with Arabic name as ``Hajre Aswad`` (though they have converted Arabic `Salat` into a persian `Namaz`)is a divine being but even the progeny of the prophet are `Kafirs`and `Wajibul-qatl`. So what are the signs of Allah. Isn`t the Adam the greatest sign of Allah Who had cursed Iblees for refusing to prostrate before him. At least so says the Quran which they profess to believe. So is not the Man , the progeny of adam, the greatest sign of Allah. What the greatest humanist of all times Bulle Shah had said:-
``Masjid, dha de , mandir dha de, dha de jo kujh dhenda
ik bande da dil nah dhaweeN Rab dillaN wich rehnda``
(Destroy all false signs of God but don`t blaspheme against the man as God does not live in masjid or mandir but in the heart of the man).
#15 Posted by syedjaved on March 2, 2005 2:09:35 am
Re: # 14
Dear Tesha your are right that humanity has always been at loggerheads with obscurentists, extremists and blockheads. God sent Holy Prophets to make people wise. Pl read my article on ``The so-called Islamic Extremism`` published in Pakistan Observer on 23-11-2004. (www.pakobserver.net) I am sure we have identityof views on this point. However, humanity had mutured to this extent that God Almight in his own wisdom decided to terminate the line of Prophethood and finalise it with the arrival of Holy Prohet Muhammad PBUH. In Quran we have eternal message in our hands. The Quran and Ahle-Bait-e- Muhammad will guide us now till the day of judgement and will take us to HolyProphet PBUH at fountain Kausar.
The sanctityof Black Stone is sanctioned and protected by HolyProphet PBUH and his Ahle Bait (AS). It is just like respecting the Camel of Hazrat Saleh (AS) or other similar things such as running betweem Safa and Marwa etc.
Yes, Islam has absolute regard and respect for human life so much so that all prayers and does and donts of Sharia are made subject to the safety and security of human life. Pl enlighten me after you have read the recommended article on extremism.
Dear Tesha your are right that humanity has always been at loggerheads with obscurentists, extremists and blockheads. God sent Holy Prophets to make people wise. Pl read my article on ``The so-called Islamic Extremism`` published in Pakistan Observer on 23-11-2004. (www.pakobserver.net) I am sure we have identityof views on this point. However, humanity had mutured to this extent that God Almight in his own wisdom decided to terminate the line of Prophethood and finalise it with the arrival of Holy Prohet Muhammad PBUH. In Quran we have eternal message in our hands. The Quran and Ahle-Bait-e- Muhammad will guide us now till the day of judgement and will take us to HolyProphet PBUH at fountain Kausar.
The sanctityof Black Stone is sanctioned and protected by HolyProphet PBUH and his Ahle Bait (AS). It is just like respecting the Camel of Hazrat Saleh (AS) or other similar things such as running betweem Safa and Marwa etc.
Yes, Islam has absolute regard and respect for human life so much so that all prayers and does and donts of Sharia are made subject to the safety and security of human life. Pl enlighten me after you have read the recommended article on extremism.
#16 Posted by teshah on March 2, 2005 5:50:03 pm
Re: # 15
``The sanctity of Black Stone is sanctioned and protected by HolyProphet PBUH and his Ahle Bait (AS)``.
I am not aware of the above. I only know a tradition according to which Hazrat Umar had kissed the stone out of love for the prophet but with a revulsion (Abahat) only because the prophet had kissed it (May be not as a religious ritual but only because of nostalgia due to a long seperation from it). Can you please quote any authentic tradition, etc., in support of your contention that worship of the stone is sanctified as a religious ritual.
Sorry, I could not find your article in the Observer.
``The sanctity of Black Stone is sanctioned and protected by HolyProphet PBUH and his Ahle Bait (AS)``.
I am not aware of the above. I only know a tradition according to which Hazrat Umar had kissed the stone out of love for the prophet but with a revulsion (Abahat) only because the prophet had kissed it (May be not as a religious ritual but only because of nostalgia due to a long seperation from it). Can you please quote any authentic tradition, etc., in support of your contention that worship of the stone is sanctified as a religious ritual.
Sorry, I could not find your article in the Observer.
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