Desperately Seeking Dictators and Dissenters
Farzana Versey February 15, 2005
#36 Posted by nasah on February 16, 2005 5:07:46 am
``I am not sure whether it matters, one way or the other, what US magazines think``(Romair)
exactly -- no it doesn`t matter one way or the other -- what a US magazine says -- because Musharraf IS a crooked Dictator by any definition of a crook......
exactly -- no it doesn`t matter one way or the other -- what a US magazine says -- because Musharraf IS a crooked Dictator by any definition of a crook......
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#35 Posted by veeresh on February 16, 2005 3:55:33 am
The Americans have a view on Pakistan, good for them. Why should it bother anybody else, especially if the anybody else, India in this case, does have its own vision intact? So, lady, this is not world opinion, this is CIA opinion. It is probably not even American opinion, if there is such a thing.
Sure, some Indians will celebrate these disclosures. Presumably some Pakistanis will also be celebrating these disclosures. Matter of fact, most anybody who will profit from churn will celebrate these disclosures. That also is nothing new.
I would like to think that by and large Indians, wo/man on the street, has got tired of all these troubles. That includes large parts of the Kashmir Valley too.
At one time not too long ago Pakistan dirty tricks department would end up impacting vast tracts of India, from the North East to the east and along the Gangetic Belt into Pakistan, along the border and thence to Mumbai. Some amount of help from friends in the desert would impact coastal areas. And then ofcourse there was Kashmir, not to forget urban Delhi.
Today it is different. Kashmir is going through a tourism boom, regardless. Barring some amount of trouble-making in the Saharanpur area and parts of eastern UP, where else in India does Pakistan have the capability?
The defining over-riding religion in India now is the middle-class rupee, and all are welcome to join.
Democracy assimilates, not just within but also nearby.
Sure, some Indians will celebrate these disclosures. Presumably some Pakistanis will also be celebrating these disclosures. Matter of fact, most anybody who will profit from churn will celebrate these disclosures. That also is nothing new.
I would like to think that by and large Indians, wo/man on the street, has got tired of all these troubles. That includes large parts of the Kashmir Valley too.
At one time not too long ago Pakistan dirty tricks department would end up impacting vast tracts of India, from the North East to the east and along the Gangetic Belt into Pakistan, along the border and thence to Mumbai. Some amount of help from friends in the desert would impact coastal areas. And then ofcourse there was Kashmir, not to forget urban Delhi.
Today it is different. Kashmir is going through a tourism boom, regardless. Barring some amount of trouble-making in the Saharanpur area and parts of eastern UP, where else in India does Pakistan have the capability?
The defining over-riding religion in India now is the middle-class rupee, and all are welcome to join.
Democracy assimilates, not just within but also nearby.
#34 Posted by ballukhan on February 16, 2005 3:27:04 am
``Therefore, ...............In today’s global scenario, democracies institutionalise dictatorial policies and terrorism works as legitimate political dissent``
My......! My..........!
Somebody has really come apart now.
``Consciously or subconsciously, a section of the public tends to sympathise with the terrorist persona. It probably reveals a part of our repressed selves.....``
People go to such ludicurous extent of writing articles in support of dictators.............Terrorism..........and against Democracy!!!!!!!!
It is could have very well come from any ordinary fauzi boot licker (or a wanna be boot licker trying to get into the current Pakistani fauzi elite circuit of Lahore)........Welcome to the pureland!!
My......! My..........!
Somebody has really come apart now.
``Consciously or subconsciously, a section of the public tends to sympathise with the terrorist persona. It probably reveals a part of our repressed selves.....``
People go to such ludicurous extent of writing articles in support of dictators.............Terrorism..........and against Democracy!!!!!!!!
It is could have very well come from any ordinary fauzi boot licker (or a wanna be boot licker trying to get into the current Pakistani fauzi elite circuit of Lahore)........Welcome to the pureland!!
#33 Posted by HisExcellency on February 16, 2005 2:44:58 am
re: kaurasach #5
``There is nothing absolute in the world. It is all relative. One terrorist act in Tokyo doesn`t justify an immoral regime in Pakistan``
You are correct. There is nothing absolute in the world. It`s all relative. Therefore, immorality and terrorism are also relative. One man`s terrorist is another man`s hero. A military regime seen as immoral in one part of the world, may be seen as the last hope of economic survival and stability in another part of the same world.
``There is nothing absolute in the world. It is all relative. One terrorist act in Tokyo doesn`t justify an immoral regime in Pakistan``
You are correct. There is nothing absolute in the world. It`s all relative. Therefore, immorality and terrorism are also relative. One man`s terrorist is another man`s hero. A military regime seen as immoral in one part of the world, may be seen as the last hope of economic survival and stability in another part of the same world.
#32 Posted by Dash_Dot on February 16, 2005 2:25:05 am
mantolives here is another perspective for you...your comments on this please....
India is most preferred outsourcing destination
PRAGATI VERMA
TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 15, 2005 09:34:16 PM ]
NEW DELHI: India is leading the list of the most favoured outsourcing destinations across the world.
India is currently home to 228 offshoring projects, followed by Britain’s 187, China’s 132, America’s 123, Canada’s 98, and Singapore’s 95. Behind Singapore are Germany and Ireland with 77 each, Australia with 72, and the Netherlands with 52, according to the data gathered by United Nations Conference on Trade and Development (UNCTAD).
In Europe, UK ws the clear leader with 20 per cent of the value of the worldwide contracts awarded last year. Germany, though played a key role in boosting Europe’s ranking, with its share jumping to 12.5 per cent from less than 1 per cent four years back.
Analysts point out that mega-contracts from UK including HSBC, National Rail Enquiries, Aviva and Lloyds TSB insurance hit the headlines last year.
US and UK have been the traditional leaders in offshoring thanks to their dominance of English language in the two countries. Asia Pacific region was much behind at 7 per cent last year.
Europe overtook US last year, cornering close to half of the £40 billion offshored business activities while US trailed behind with 44 per cent of all the large projects.
In contrast, US cornered 47 per cent of the market and Europe had only 41 per cent in 2003. European companies offshored contracts worth £19 billion, more than double the level seen in 2002, according to research from global sourcing firm, TPI.
India is most preferred outsourcing destination
PRAGATI VERMA
TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 15, 2005 09:34:16 PM ]
NEW DELHI: India is leading the list of the most favoured outsourcing destinations across the world.
India is currently home to 228 offshoring projects, followed by Britain’s 187, China’s 132, America’s 123, Canada’s 98, and Singapore’s 95. Behind Singapore are Germany and Ireland with 77 each, Australia with 72, and the Netherlands with 52, according to the data gathered by United Nations Conference on Trade and Development (UNCTAD).
In Europe, UK ws the clear leader with 20 per cent of the value of the worldwide contracts awarded last year. Germany, though played a key role in boosting Europe’s ranking, with its share jumping to 12.5 per cent from less than 1 per cent four years back.
Analysts point out that mega-contracts from UK including HSBC, National Rail Enquiries, Aviva and Lloyds TSB insurance hit the headlines last year.
US and UK have been the traditional leaders in offshoring thanks to their dominance of English language in the two countries. Asia Pacific region was much behind at 7 per cent last year.
Europe overtook US last year, cornering close to half of the £40 billion offshored business activities while US trailed behind with 44 per cent of all the large projects.
In contrast, US cornered 47 per cent of the market and Europe had only 41 per cent in 2003. European companies offshored contracts worth £19 billion, more than double the level seen in 2002, according to research from global sourcing firm, TPI.
#31 Posted by ferozk on February 16, 2005 1:46:08 am
re: FV
The general drift of the article was quite entertaining but if it was intended as a caus d` celebre, then that is another story, but as far as the generalization of the international situation, in the present sense, was intoned, there were a lot of slips between the lip and the cup. First of all, my only comment and it is a comment of disagreement with the article, is that terrorism is never a legitimate expression of political dissent. To a degree, I can ``buy`` the argument that western democracies can be blamed for institutionalizing Third World dictatorships, and I think that you have, on purpose, blurred the distinction when you have equated terrorism as a political expression.
I am more than willing to accept the proposition that terrorism is more an example of an asymetrical warfare than it is a political dissent. Generally, terrorism is a very hard term to define, when once upon a time terrorists have won the Nobel Peace Prize (Begin and Sadat 1979). I do not favor terrorism, because it seeks to vocalize its arguments outside the established rubic of international relations, which are geared towards maintaining the status quo (ante) and not in upsetting it. I am aware that there are serious imbalances within the system and it does create injustices, but the solution is not a nihilistic approach that seeks to erdicate the present international status quo, but in reforming the system itself. Even if I am willing to accept the proposition that terrorism is a political dissent, I will have to add the caveat that more than a political dissent, terrorism is the stifling of political dissent by drowning out the voice of compromise by encouraging the voices of extermists to gain a monoploy in the political discourse and is nothing more than marginization of the mainstream opinion through intimidation and use of political violence.
Violence, for what ever reason regardless of its justifications, is not dissent.
Ciao
The general drift of the article was quite entertaining but if it was intended as a caus d` celebre, then that is another story, but as far as the generalization of the international situation, in the present sense, was intoned, there were a lot of slips between the lip and the cup. First of all, my only comment and it is a comment of disagreement with the article, is that terrorism is never a legitimate expression of political dissent. To a degree, I can ``buy`` the argument that western democracies can be blamed for institutionalizing Third World dictatorships, and I think that you have, on purpose, blurred the distinction when you have equated terrorism as a political expression.
I am more than willing to accept the proposition that terrorism is more an example of an asymetrical warfare than it is a political dissent. Generally, terrorism is a very hard term to define, when once upon a time terrorists have won the Nobel Peace Prize (Begin and Sadat 1979). I do not favor terrorism, because it seeks to vocalize its arguments outside the established rubic of international relations, which are geared towards maintaining the status quo (ante) and not in upsetting it. I am aware that there are serious imbalances within the system and it does create injustices, but the solution is not a nihilistic approach that seeks to erdicate the present international status quo, but in reforming the system itself. Even if I am willing to accept the proposition that terrorism is a political dissent, I will have to add the caveat that more than a political dissent, terrorism is the stifling of political dissent by drowning out the voice of compromise by encouraging the voices of extermists to gain a monoploy in the political discourse and is nothing more than marginization of the mainstream opinion through intimidation and use of political violence.
Violence, for what ever reason regardless of its justifications, is not dissent.
Ciao
#30 Posted by mshergill on February 16, 2005 1:35:09 am
I remember reading that when India and Pakistan became independent, many political figures from the west prophesised that both the countries would collapse within the next five years.
In a similar light, CIA reports should not be taken seriously, remember the fantasies of lies which they created about Iraq in the recent past.
A little bit of thinking and common sense will show that it is in India`s interest to have secure neighbours which include Pakistan.
In a similar light, CIA reports should not be taken seriously, remember the fantasies of lies which they created about Iraq in the recent past.
A little bit of thinking and common sense will show that it is in India`s interest to have secure neighbours which include Pakistan.
#29 Posted by harish_hyd on February 16, 2005 1:31:30 am
#21 by Mantolives
[Another achievement of General Musharraf is the empowerment of Women and Non-Muslim Pakistanis, and revival of their status somewhat to the extent that it was pre-1979]
Sure! The Hudood Laws, whereby a raped woman must produce 4 ‘pious’ male witnesses to get the rapist convicted has been repealed, Saima Sarwar’s father, a bigshot who had his daughter murdered bang inside Asma Jahangir’s office because she tainted family honor by eloping with a guy, has been brought to book, and Paki women are crying with joy!
No amount of superficial measures such as reservations to Parliament can elevate women’s status until such abominable laws are repealed, and Mushy has done diddly squat about them.
[Another achievement of General Musharraf is the empowerment of Women and Non-Muslim Pakistanis, and revival of their status somewhat to the extent that it was pre-1979]
Sure! The Hudood Laws, whereby a raped woman must produce 4 ‘pious’ male witnesses to get the rapist convicted has been repealed, Saima Sarwar’s father, a bigshot who had his daughter murdered bang inside Asma Jahangir’s office because she tainted family honor by eloping with a guy, has been brought to book, and Paki women are crying with joy!
No amount of superficial measures such as reservations to Parliament can elevate women’s status until such abominable laws are repealed, and Mushy has done diddly squat about them.
#28 Posted by harish_hyd on February 16, 2005 1:30:11 am
#21 by Mantolives
[Another achievement of General Musharraf is the empowerment of Women and Non-Muslim Pakistanis, and revival of their status somewhat to the extent that it was pre-1979]
Sure! The Hudood Laws, whereby a raped woman must produce 4 ‘pious’ male witnesses to get the rapist convicted has been repealed, Saima Sarwar’s father, a bigshot who had his daughter murdered bang inside Asma Jahangir’s office because she tainted family honor by eloping with a guy, has been brought to book, and Paki women are crying with joy!
No amount of reservations can elevate women’s status until such abominable laws are repealed, and Mushy has done diddly squat about them.
[Another achievement of General Musharraf is the empowerment of Women and Non-Muslim Pakistanis, and revival of their status somewhat to the extent that it was pre-1979]
Sure! The Hudood Laws, whereby a raped woman must produce 4 ‘pious’ male witnesses to get the rapist convicted has been repealed, Saima Sarwar’s father, a bigshot who had his daughter murdered bang inside Asma Jahangir’s office because she tainted family honor by eloping with a guy, has been brought to book, and Paki women are crying with joy!
No amount of reservations can elevate women’s status until such abominable laws are repealed, and Mushy has done diddly squat about them.
#27 Posted by Layman on February 16, 2005 12:34:19 am
Actually FV I am a bit disappointed by your article in the issues you are trying to address. I think Indians should not read too much into the 10 worst dictators thing. We should be worried about our own internal situation:
- Some states are out of bounds due to terrorism or insurgency: J&K, Assam, other N-E states.
- Some states are messed up in terms of law & order: UP, Bihar.
- An increasing number of states are under attack from Naxalites: some districts of Karnataka, AP, Orissa, West Bengal, MP.
Not to mention the casteism and the communalism and the corruption that goes on under the cloak of socialism/communism, Hindutva and secularism.
In a lot of political parties and states ruled by them, there is no democracy, but one-man rule (or one-woman rule in the case of Amma). Sonia, Laloo, Mayawati, Bal Thakrey, Jayalalitha, Karunanidhi rule their parties/states like dictators.
This is what we should be worrying about, not the Pukis.
- Some states are out of bounds due to terrorism or insurgency: J&K, Assam, other N-E states.
- Some states are messed up in terms of law & order: UP, Bihar.
- An increasing number of states are under attack from Naxalites: some districts of Karnataka, AP, Orissa, West Bengal, MP.
Not to mention the casteism and the communalism and the corruption that goes on under the cloak of socialism/communism, Hindutva and secularism.
In a lot of political parties and states ruled by them, there is no democracy, but one-man rule (or one-woman rule in the case of Amma). Sonia, Laloo, Mayawati, Bal Thakrey, Jayalalitha, Karunanidhi rule their parties/states like dictators.
This is what we should be worrying about, not the Pukis.
#26 Posted by nasah on February 15, 2005 10:30:14 pm
Bush is indeed a World Dictator -- and a murderous one to BOOT -- because the world did not ELECT him to rule by Pax Americana....
#24 Posted by baaghiraja on February 15, 2005 9:49:39 pm
Gee, never heard the US and the Indians say anything as apocalyptic about Gen. Zia. Musharraf is a poodle compared to him.
Stuka/HP:
Umm ... are dictatorships always a bad thing? Don`t think so.
rgds,
NfP
Stuka/HP:
Umm ... are dictatorships always a bad thing? Don`t think so.
rgds,
NfP
#23 Posted by HP on February 15, 2005 9:28:41 pm
#9 by vivek on February 15, 2005 11:41am PT
``America is the largest dictatorship in the world today.``
That`s pure nonsense. Not only is George W. Bush democratically elected,”
#6 by stuka
“That is rhetorical bunkum. How is the US a dictatorship? Bush won the popular vote.”
For political junkies, are you guys really naïve or have you put on tinfoil hats temporarily just to despise FV?
So, you think FV is not aware that Bush won elections by popular votes. They don’t have TV and Newspapers in Bombay or what!
Here is your homework kids!
Just read the article again and solve this riddle. “America is the largest dictatorship” Think about it and read the article repeatedly.
I believe stuka recently came back from Lahore, the non political Capital of Pakistan. I guess he lost it there :-) ^-^
``America is the largest dictatorship in the world today.``
That`s pure nonsense. Not only is George W. Bush democratically elected,”
#6 by stuka
“That is rhetorical bunkum. How is the US a dictatorship? Bush won the popular vote.”
For political junkies, are you guys really naïve or have you put on tinfoil hats temporarily just to despise FV?
So, you think FV is not aware that Bush won elections by popular votes. They don’t have TV and Newspapers in Bombay or what!
Here is your homework kids!
Just read the article again and solve this riddle. “America is the largest dictatorship” Think about it and read the article repeatedly.
I believe stuka recently came back from Lahore, the non political Capital of Pakistan. I guess he lost it there :-) ^-^
#22 Posted by MantoLives on February 15, 2005 8:59:48 pm
Romair....
I agree with your post... however I must point out... economic growth and options of entertainment are SECULAR concerns. Another achievement of General Musharraf is the empowerment of Women and Non-Muslim Pakistanis, and revival of their status somewhat to the extent that it was pre-1979.... this is also a secular concern.
That said... Amit has a point about the issue of succession... which is the primary issue in Pakistan`s history. This is where Musharraf needs to work out an exit strategy for the army... and gradually the movement towards a fully functional constitutional democracy.
#21 Posted by MantoLives on February 15, 2005 8:59:44 pm
Romair....
I agree with your post... however I must point out... economic growth and options of entertainment are SECULAR concerns. Another achievement of General Musharraf is the empowerment of Women and Non-Muslim Pakistanis, and revival of their status somewhat to the extent that it was pre-1979.... this is also a secular concern.
That said... Amit has a point about the issue of succession... which is the primary issue in Pakistan`s history. This is where Musharraf needs to work out an exit strategy for the army... and gradually the movement towards a fully functional constitutional democracy.
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