Planting Democracy in the World – A Mantra for Freedom
Mohammad Gill March 6, 2005
#67 Posted by Romair on March 9, 2005 12:38:39 pm
The events in Lebanon are interesting. 70,000-80,000 people demonstrated agaisnt the Lebanese govt., causing the Prime Minister to resign. Now 500,000 people have demonstrated in favor of the Prime Minister, after which he is ready to become Prime Minsiter again.
500,000 people demonstration is equivalent of to a 18 million person demonstration in Pakistan. One out of every eight Lebanese was in the demonstration.....
Lebanon, like Afghanistan, has been a victim of other countries fighting their wars within its boundaries. This is the way powerful countries fight their wars. Israel, Palestinians, Syrians, USA (through Israel) and Iran (through Hizbollah) have fought in Lebanon.
Israel occupied Lebanon for 18 years. It was finally defeated by Hizbollah, after a bloody civil war. Hizbollah is supported by Syria and Iran, and represents primarily the 40% Shia population of Lebanon. It is the most popular party in the Lebanese parliament. To the point that 1 out of 8 Lebanese protested in its favor.
Israel, continously backed by USA, supported the Christian factions in Lebanon, and occupied parts of it. This resulted in the Sabra and Shatilla massacre, which caused outrage in the world. Ariel Sharon (then Defence Minister) was personally held responsible, by an Israeli commission, for the killings of 2500 refugees. The commision recommended Sharon should not hold public office again. He went on to become the Prime Minister. And was called, ``A man of peace`` by Bush.
A court case on human rights was filed against Sharon in Belgium. However, the USA pressured Belgium by threatening to move the NATO headquarters. After which, Belgium actually amended its law to not allow cases against non-Belgians be filed in Belgium.
Syria moved into Lebanon decades ago to checkmate Israel. It was afraid Israel would cut through Lebanon and Syria. Syria never left, and is using its association with Hizbollah to pressurize Israel on its occupation of Golan Heights.
Hizbollah has been declared a terrorist organization by the USA. However, according to Time magazine, and apparently the current demonstration of 500,000 it may win even more seats in the next elections in Lebanon.
So Israel and USA will be trying to get rid of the ruling Lebanese govt. of Hizbollah. While Syria and Iran are going to try to keep it in. What will the people of Lebanon do?
500,000 people demonstration is equivalent of to a 18 million person demonstration in Pakistan. One out of every eight Lebanese was in the demonstration.....
Lebanon, like Afghanistan, has been a victim of other countries fighting their wars within its boundaries. This is the way powerful countries fight their wars. Israel, Palestinians, Syrians, USA (through Israel) and Iran (through Hizbollah) have fought in Lebanon.
Israel occupied Lebanon for 18 years. It was finally defeated by Hizbollah, after a bloody civil war. Hizbollah is supported by Syria and Iran, and represents primarily the 40% Shia population of Lebanon. It is the most popular party in the Lebanese parliament. To the point that 1 out of 8 Lebanese protested in its favor.
Israel, continously backed by USA, supported the Christian factions in Lebanon, and occupied parts of it. This resulted in the Sabra and Shatilla massacre, which caused outrage in the world. Ariel Sharon (then Defence Minister) was personally held responsible, by an Israeli commission, for the killings of 2500 refugees. The commision recommended Sharon should not hold public office again. He went on to become the Prime Minister. And was called, ``A man of peace`` by Bush.
A court case on human rights was filed against Sharon in Belgium. However, the USA pressured Belgium by threatening to move the NATO headquarters. After which, Belgium actually amended its law to not allow cases against non-Belgians be filed in Belgium.
Syria moved into Lebanon decades ago to checkmate Israel. It was afraid Israel would cut through Lebanon and Syria. Syria never left, and is using its association with Hizbollah to pressurize Israel on its occupation of Golan Heights.
Hizbollah has been declared a terrorist organization by the USA. However, according to Time magazine, and apparently the current demonstration of 500,000 it may win even more seats in the next elections in Lebanon.
So Israel and USA will be trying to get rid of the ruling Lebanese govt. of Hizbollah. While Syria and Iran are going to try to keep it in. What will the people of Lebanon do?
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#66 Posted by echoboom on March 9, 2005 10:19:20 am
And this is how the Mullahs(good word--use it often), the fundos(good word use it) and terrorists ( good word --use it) and Evil Empire ( good word use it) respond to the
Roti-KapRRa-and-makaan giving United Satans of the Ba Ba Blacksheep and cantonement canines.
Those from the Madressas produce learned people. Those from Ba Ba Blacksheep schools produce Rushdiks ( Lit-LeecheeRRs), socio/pol. sci/econo-sorcery, ghetto subjects all, or employees of multi-nationals [ the ultimate in mind-mortgaging].
It is the Mullahs of Iran & soon in Iraq who have always & will always rule the minds of the world. Thew undoing of the ``West`` has begun, just as the Mongols were conquered by the Ayatollahs 800 years ago.
Allama Iqbal had forecast exactly this scenario, down to a `T` .
``He was not a prophet, but was certaily touched by Gabriel`s wings``--Anna Marie Schimmel. Germany`s most honored & respected scholar.
Allah has sent the US there to get conquered under the illusion that it is ``conquering``.
Iran firm on nuclear plans, threatens to stop dialogue
TEHRAN: Iranian officials threatened to break off negotiations with France, Britain and Germany if the EU heavyweights continue insisting on Tehran abandoning all sensitive atomic activities.
European officials began a new round of talks with Iranian negotiators in Geneva, aimed at working out a permanent resolution to the stand-off over Iran’s nuclear programme, which Washington says is a front to build atomic weapons.
Tehran insists that it is intended solely to generate electricity and has rejected an EU demand to terminate its uranium enrichment programme, which could be used to produce fuel for nuclear power plants or atomic weapons.
“If the Europeans refuse our proposals in the talks during the next couple of days, their proposals will be strongly opposed by Iran as well,” foreign ministry spokesman Hamid Reza Asefi was quoted as saying by Iran’s student news agency, Isna.
European diplomats close to the talks said no breakthroughs
were expected. Iranian President Mohammad Khatami called on the EU to back down.
“Pressures on Iran will serve nothing and we hope they will stop.
It would be good if Europe also resisted the US pressure,” he told Croatian television during a visit there. “Iran will not give up efforts to master nuclear technology because it has a moral right to do so, and no force will prevent us from pursuing it,” he added.
In a further sign of defiance, Iran’s Parliament added a clause to next year’s budget bill, obliging the government to conduct feasibility studies for constructing nuclear power plants that would generate 20 gigawatts.
The government has so far announced plans for producing only 7 GW of power from nuclear reactors by ’20. Iran’s first 1 GW reactor is due to come on-stream in late ’06.
Continued...Roti-KapRRa-and-makaan giving United Satans of the Ba Ba Blacksheep and cantonement canines.
Those from the Madressas produce learned people. Those from Ba Ba Blacksheep schools produce Rushdiks ( Lit-LeecheeRRs), socio/pol. sci/econo-sorcery, ghetto subjects all, or employees of multi-nationals [ the ultimate in mind-mortgaging].
It is the Mullahs of Iran & soon in Iraq who have always & will always rule the minds of the world. Thew undoing of the ``West`` has begun, just as the Mongols were conquered by the Ayatollahs 800 years ago.
Allama Iqbal had forecast exactly this scenario, down to a `T` .
``He was not a prophet, but was certaily touched by Gabriel`s wings``--Anna Marie Schimmel. Germany`s most honored & respected scholar.
Allah has sent the US there to get conquered under the illusion that it is ``conquering``.
Iran firm on nuclear plans, threatens to stop dialogue
TEHRAN: Iranian officials threatened to break off negotiations with France, Britain and Germany if the EU heavyweights continue insisting on Tehran abandoning all sensitive atomic activities.
European officials began a new round of talks with Iranian negotiators in Geneva, aimed at working out a permanent resolution to the stand-off over Iran’s nuclear programme, which Washington says is a front to build atomic weapons.
Tehran insists that it is intended solely to generate electricity and has rejected an EU demand to terminate its uranium enrichment programme, which could be used to produce fuel for nuclear power plants or atomic weapons.
“If the Europeans refuse our proposals in the talks during the next couple of days, their proposals will be strongly opposed by Iran as well,” foreign ministry spokesman Hamid Reza Asefi was quoted as saying by Iran’s student news agency, Isna.
European diplomats close to the talks said no breakthroughs
were expected. Iranian President Mohammad Khatami called on the EU to back down.
“Pressures on Iran will serve nothing and we hope they will stop.
It would be good if Europe also resisted the US pressure,” he told Croatian television during a visit there. “Iran will not give up efforts to master nuclear technology because it has a moral right to do so, and no force will prevent us from pursuing it,” he added.
In a further sign of defiance, Iran’s Parliament added a clause to next year’s budget bill, obliging the government to conduct feasibility studies for constructing nuclear power plants that would generate 20 gigawatts.
The government has so far announced plans for producing only 7 GW of power from nuclear reactors by ’20. Iran’s first 1 GW reactor is due to come on-stream in late ’06.
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#65 Posted by arjun_m on March 9, 2005 9:41:15 am
#64 by vertex on March 9, 2005 8:27am PT
I don`t won`t some ignoramus issuing decrees from the pulpit, but by the same token I wouldn`t appreciate naked people romping down the street becuause the state refuses to forbid such behavior.
There`s a long way between banning the sale of alchohol and allowing gay marriages....Most muslim countries are on the wrong side if the divide..
Muslims living in the west/non-muslim countries are always supportive of secularism...muslim living in muslim majority countries all want their countries to be Islamic...Know of an Islamic country that is even trying to be secular...and by secular, I don`t mean gay marriage secular..I mean secular to any degree...
I don`t won`t some ignoramus issuing decrees from the pulpit, but by the same token I wouldn`t appreciate naked people romping down the street becuause the state refuses to forbid such behavior.
There`s a long way between banning the sale of alchohol and allowing gay marriages....Most muslim countries are on the wrong side if the divide..
Muslims living in the west/non-muslim countries are always supportive of secularism...muslim living in muslim majority countries all want their countries to be Islamic...Know of an Islamic country that is even trying to be secular...and by secular, I don`t mean gay marriage secular..I mean secular to any degree...
#64 Posted by vertex on March 9, 2005 8:27:50 am
amit,
``These are all excuses to avoid doing the right thing i.e. provide equality, when you are in the majority but expect others to do the right thing in their societies when you live as a minority there. ``
Not necessarily. For example I hate the mullah, but I still wouldn`t opt for the secularism of Turkey which is intrusive and oppressive. I don`t won`t some ignoramus issuing decrees from the pulpit, but by the same token I wouldn`t appreciate naked people romping down the street becuause the state refuses to forbid such behavior.
I have learned to tolerate much in secular lands...I would suggest that those who want a top-down secularization of society learn to tolerate faith in the *public* within Muslim countries as I have learned to tolerate it`s absence outside.
If anything, the secularists are equally guilty of being duplicitous as they want Muslims to assimilate into secular culture, however themselves refuse to assimilate within Muslim societies.
``These are all excuses to avoid doing the right thing i.e. provide equality, when you are in the majority but expect others to do the right thing in their societies when you live as a minority there. ``
Not necessarily. For example I hate the mullah, but I still wouldn`t opt for the secularism of Turkey which is intrusive and oppressive. I don`t won`t some ignoramus issuing decrees from the pulpit, but by the same token I wouldn`t appreciate naked people romping down the street becuause the state refuses to forbid such behavior.
I have learned to tolerate much in secular lands...I would suggest that those who want a top-down secularization of society learn to tolerate faith in the *public* within Muslim countries as I have learned to tolerate it`s absence outside.
If anything, the secularists are equally guilty of being duplicitous as they want Muslims to assimilate into secular culture, however themselves refuse to assimilate within Muslim societies.
#63 Posted by vertex on March 9, 2005 7:52:00 am
hamidm2,
Fareed ``slurp slurp`` Zakaria didn`t know what he was talking about...too juiced up on spoiled grape juice. The fact is, the spread of democracy doesn`t suit the neo-con agenda because what you`ll get is otherwise legitimate anti-American regimes in rather strategic places. So, nuances must be added to keep up the illusion of illegitimacy pursuant to the ideological agenda that Mr. Z supports. Where I come from, we call it ``being a suck``.
You know...you get your way, but even then it`s not good enough.
The fact is, when liberal democracies behave like nazis or commies in spreading their faith...they really shouldn`t be considered any much better...no matter how they treat *their* people.
On the bright side, now I can poke those stupid anti-Islam polemicists in the eye with this little melody: ``Democracy is spread by the sword``. Small pleasures...
Fareed ``slurp slurp`` Zakaria didn`t know what he was talking about...too juiced up on spoiled grape juice. The fact is, the spread of democracy doesn`t suit the neo-con agenda because what you`ll get is otherwise legitimate anti-American regimes in rather strategic places. So, nuances must be added to keep up the illusion of illegitimacy pursuant to the ideological agenda that Mr. Z supports. Where I come from, we call it ``being a suck``.
You know...you get your way, but even then it`s not good enough.
The fact is, when liberal democracies behave like nazis or commies in spreading their faith...they really shouldn`t be considered any much better...no matter how they treat *their* people.
On the bright side, now I can poke those stupid anti-Islam polemicists in the eye with this little melody: ``Democracy is spread by the sword``. Small pleasures...
#62 Posted by hamidm2 on March 9, 2005 7:37:25 am
vertex,
............... isalmists of all shades, like the communists and nazis before them, are always trying to obfuscate ....................... i do believe that both mr gill and i are talking about liberal democracy as defined by zakaria as being the ``real democracy`` ............... anything else is camel doodoo ...........
............... isalmists of all shades, like the communists and nazis before them, are always trying to obfuscate ....................... i do believe that both mr gill and i are talking about liberal democracy as defined by zakaria as being the ``real democracy`` ............... anything else is camel doodoo ...........
#61 Posted by vertex on March 9, 2005 7:23:55 am
hamidm,
``............... yes - without the separation of church and state you cannot have constitutional liberalism ``
Mr. Gill made it a point to distinguish between liberalism, constitutional liberalism and democracy proper. So yes, you can have a democracy without secularism.
``.............. yes - otherwise what you have is elections that can be manipulated by nazis, communists, mullahs or others of their ilk ``
And neo-cons. Oops...
Politics will always be manipulated by special interests in ``liberal democracies``
``................. secularism is a necessary (but not sufficient) condition for democracy ``
Not true. See above.
``............ there can be no democracy with a religious government (you can have elections, like in iran )``
Unless mandated by the people...duh. At best it`s a paradox.
``............... yes - without the separation of church and state you cannot have constitutional liberalism ``
Mr. Gill made it a point to distinguish between liberalism, constitutional liberalism and democracy proper. So yes, you can have a democracy without secularism.
``.............. yes - otherwise what you have is elections that can be manipulated by nazis, communists, mullahs or others of their ilk ``
And neo-cons. Oops...
Politics will always be manipulated by special interests in ``liberal democracies``
``................. secularism is a necessary (but not sufficient) condition for democracy ``
Not true. See above.
``............ there can be no democracy with a religious government (you can have elections, like in iran )``
Unless mandated by the people...duh. At best it`s a paradox.
#60 Posted by amit on March 8, 2005 10:12:22 pm
Re:hamidm#52
Those were terrific answers - really pithy. It took me 10 interacts with Romair to get my point across, while you have cut to the chase in 1 interact. Hats off to you, sir!! If Pakistan produces people like you, there is hope for all of us :-). Ever consider moving to India? We would love to have you with us :-)
It is amazing to see Romair complain about non-secular forces in USA, India etc, but when it comes to Pakistan, he will not support secularim. He says Pakistanis will not accept secularism, they will not give up ``public injunctions`` of religion whatever they may be etc. These are all excuses to avoid doing the right thing i.e. provide equality, when you are in the majority but expect others to do the right thing in their societies when you live as a minority there. I have met so many Pakistanis in my life and most of them are not religious fundos by any means. Why they cannot have a constitutionally liberal, secular democracy escapes me.
Those were terrific answers - really pithy. It took me 10 interacts with Romair to get my point across, while you have cut to the chase in 1 interact. Hats off to you, sir!! If Pakistan produces people like you, there is hope for all of us :-). Ever consider moving to India? We would love to have you with us :-)
It is amazing to see Romair complain about non-secular forces in USA, India etc, but when it comes to Pakistan, he will not support secularim. He says Pakistanis will not accept secularism, they will not give up ``public injunctions`` of religion whatever they may be etc. These are all excuses to avoid doing the right thing i.e. provide equality, when you are in the majority but expect others to do the right thing in their societies when you live as a minority there. I have met so many Pakistanis in my life and most of them are not religious fundos by any means. Why they cannot have a constitutionally liberal, secular democracy escapes me.
#59 Posted by hamidm2 on March 8, 2005 7:40:18 pm
arjun,
............ you must understand that echo probably belongs to one of the gangs of graffiti artists whose handiwork can be seen on walls and bridges all over pakistan ......... their slogans usually include exhortations to kill ahmedis, shias and those who support ahmedis and shias .......... the internet is just another avenue for their ``art``..........
............ you must understand that echo probably belongs to one of the gangs of graffiti artists whose handiwork can be seen on walls and bridges all over pakistan ......... their slogans usually include exhortations to kill ahmedis, shias and those who support ahmedis and shias .......... the internet is just another avenue for their ``art``..........
#58 Posted by arjun_m on March 8, 2005 6:39:38 pm
#57 by echoboom on March 8, 2005 5:23pm PT
Is Islam at war with normal font sizes? Are normal font-sizes a no-no according to the koran?
Is Islam at war with normal font sizes? Are normal font-sizes a no-no according to the koran?
#57 Posted by echoboom on March 8, 2005 5:23:17 pm
THE WEST, WAR, AND ISLAM
A message to the Islamic World: The Battle for Freedom Is Won Only in the Minds of Men: The West`s distorted viewpoint of what is loosely called ``the Arab world`` is Danger Nr.1 for all the Islamic Nations
by Ernst Zundel
MANNHEIM, GERMANY -- (OfficialWire) -- 03/08/05 -- If the typicalIslamic person could perceive what the typical Westerner thinks abouthim - his traditions, culture and religion - he would be amused, shocked, or perhaps even frightened. To the Western mind, the Islamic world is inscrutably bemusing - an exotic enigma, part fairy tale, part attitudes formed in colonial times in which, frequently, perfectly normal and logical acts are construed with misunderstandings and misgivings.
To the Westerner, the Islamic world is a lurid hodge-podge of exotic imagery - a myth adapted from 1001 Nights - comprised of huge harems, wild sex orgies, opulent palaces, flying carpets, incredible wealth, fierce warriors, hordes of thieves, shrewd and dishonest traders,
read the rest here.
#56 Posted by bbabu on March 8, 2005 5:15:41 pm
hamidm2 #52
`` democracy for dummies ........
mr gill, if you don`t mind, let me give some simple answers to mr romair`s brilliant questions .........
Are you suggesting that democracy is not possible without secularism?
............... yes - without the separation of church and state you cannot have constitutional liberalism
Are you suggesting that democracy without secularism is useless?
.............. yes - otherwise what you have is elections that can be manipulated by nazis, communists, mullahs or others of their ilk
Are you suggesting that secularism is more important than democracy or vice-versa?
................. secularism is a necessary (but not sufficient) condition for democracy
If Iraq ends up with democracy with a religious govt. will it be better off than being under a secularism dictatorship?
............ there can be no democracy with a religious government (you can have elections, like in iran ) ``
when hamid means democracy he really implies democracy + pluralism
it implies the minority (whether they are religious, economic, political or cultural) are granted certain inalienable rights.
I used to wonder if democracy is good in polarized societies like pre-partition India, Lebanon, Sri Lanka, Nigeria or 1970 Pakistan. The more I think the alternatives are worse.
`` democracy for dummies ........
mr gill, if you don`t mind, let me give some simple answers to mr romair`s brilliant questions .........
Are you suggesting that democracy is not possible without secularism?
............... yes - without the separation of church and state you cannot have constitutional liberalism
Are you suggesting that democracy without secularism is useless?
.............. yes - otherwise what you have is elections that can be manipulated by nazis, communists, mullahs or others of their ilk
Are you suggesting that secularism is more important than democracy or vice-versa?
................. secularism is a necessary (but not sufficient) condition for democracy
If Iraq ends up with democracy with a religious govt. will it be better off than being under a secularism dictatorship?
............ there can be no democracy with a religious government (you can have elections, like in iran ) ``
when hamid means democracy he really implies democracy + pluralism
it implies the minority (whether they are religious, economic, political or cultural) are granted certain inalienable rights.
I used to wonder if democracy is good in polarized societies like pre-partition India, Lebanon, Sri Lanka, Nigeria or 1970 Pakistan. The more I think the alternatives are worse.
#55 Posted by Romair on March 8, 2005 4:45:49 pm
The Clinton interview, at the World Economic Forum is a must hear (linked posted by echoboom). Excellent interview.
It is good to hear a US President take full responsiblity for the US`s action in Iran from 50`s onwards, and admitting that the USA supported Iraq and Saddam. This is the kind of truth and reconciliation the US needs to carry out to establish some credibility in the Middle East. And he gets a good round of applause from the most Western crowd...........
Somewhat paraphrased,
``If you look at Iran.............It`s a sad story which really starts in the 50s when the USA got rid of Mossadaq and brough the Shah in....We got rid of their parliamentary democracy..........Most of the things Saddam Hussain did in 80s, were with the full support of the USA............I publicly apologized to Khatami for USA overthrowing Mossadaq............Iran is the only country in the world that has now had six elections, since the first election of Khatami. Only country where liberals or progressives have won 2/3rd of the vote for six elections. There is no other country in the world, in which the people I identify with got 2/3rd of the vote. I cannot say that about Israel or even my own country...........They still kind of like the West.........How would those 2/3rd react if military action is taken.............Israel attack on Iran option is not available in Iran...........One of the reasons we invaded Iraq is because Saddam did not have the capacity to hurt his neighbors and the USA.........Iran has that capacity...........It is madness..........There is an elected govt. in Iran which wants reproachment with USA..........
I don`t know that there is a target in Iran that can be taken out with one or two bombs, with no civilian casualities..........Its much more difficult..........They are a much more formidable foe............There ought to be some sort of mega-deal.............The religious council in Iran has not entirely shut down democracy...............We ought to give some final push to diplomacy.............
There has been a lot of research about this (USA) elections..........We got about a draw on Iraq.........as many against and for it............Elected Bush on security, not on Iraq, but on how he handled 9/11...........
We should be trying to make Iraq work...........lets see what happens in the elections.....``
Hmm......Clinton got his privates handed to him by the Republican Party Right for having consentual sex............Bush is rooted on by the same party, even after killing so many in Iraq............and he is about to screw up things in Iran also............
Excellent interview...........Bring Clinton back...........Or find a Monica for Bush..........
It is good to hear a US President take full responsiblity for the US`s action in Iran from 50`s onwards, and admitting that the USA supported Iraq and Saddam. This is the kind of truth and reconciliation the US needs to carry out to establish some credibility in the Middle East. And he gets a good round of applause from the most Western crowd...........
Somewhat paraphrased,
``If you look at Iran.............It`s a sad story which really starts in the 50s when the USA got rid of Mossadaq and brough the Shah in....We got rid of their parliamentary democracy..........Most of the things Saddam Hussain did in 80s, were with the full support of the USA............I publicly apologized to Khatami for USA overthrowing Mossadaq............Iran is the only country in the world that has now had six elections, since the first election of Khatami. Only country where liberals or progressives have won 2/3rd of the vote for six elections. There is no other country in the world, in which the people I identify with got 2/3rd of the vote. I cannot say that about Israel or even my own country...........They still kind of like the West.........How would those 2/3rd react if military action is taken.............Israel attack on Iran option is not available in Iran...........One of the reasons we invaded Iraq is because Saddam did not have the capacity to hurt his neighbors and the USA.........Iran has that capacity...........It is madness..........There is an elected govt. in Iran which wants reproachment with USA..........
I don`t know that there is a target in Iran that can be taken out with one or two bombs, with no civilian casualities..........Its much more difficult..........They are a much more formidable foe............There ought to be some sort of mega-deal.............The religious council in Iran has not entirely shut down democracy...............We ought to give some final push to diplomacy.............
There has been a lot of research about this (USA) elections..........We got about a draw on Iraq.........as many against and for it............Elected Bush on security, not on Iraq, but on how he handled 9/11...........
We should be trying to make Iraq work...........lets see what happens in the elections.....``
Hmm......Clinton got his privates handed to him by the Republican Party Right for having consentual sex............Bush is rooted on by the same party, even after killing so many in Iraq............and he is about to screw up things in Iran also............
Excellent interview...........Bring Clinton back...........Or find a Monica for Bush..........
#54 Posted by hamidm2 on March 8, 2005 4:31:31 pm
Re: # 44
SR,
i agree with you ........... mushy is in the same ranks as the ayatollas and hosni mubarak even though romair thinks he is the cat`s meow .........
SR,
i agree with you ........... mushy is in the same ranks as the ayatollas and hosni mubarak even though romair thinks he is the cat`s meow .........
#53 Posted by SR on March 8, 2005 4:29:35 pm
Re: # 50 echoboom
Thanx for the links.
Clinton is a very smart man whose views carry weight with me. Anyone who can be on the phone with world leaders discussing serious international issues while simultaneously getting a blow job, is a real man in my book. A man whose opinions cannot be dismissed lightly.
Just one side comment about your response though...
If you were to try using civilized, moderate, conciliatory, tolerant and polite language, perhaps you`ll get a few people trying to understand your point. As it is, I suspect, most will simply tune you out. So please try and cut down the venom in your words, you might actually find that people will be more reasonable in their responses.
Unfortunately, I am also one of your Ba Ba Blacksheep, faarin-returned (actually I didn`t return) kalloo-goraa, totaa-mainaa etc, but it doesn`t mean we cannot be civilized to one another. Please consider. Thank you again.
...SR
Thanx for the links.
Clinton is a very smart man whose views carry weight with me. Anyone who can be on the phone with world leaders discussing serious international issues while simultaneously getting a blow job, is a real man in my book. A man whose opinions cannot be dismissed lightly.
Just one side comment about your response though...
If you were to try using civilized, moderate, conciliatory, tolerant and polite language, perhaps you`ll get a few people trying to understand your point. As it is, I suspect, most will simply tune you out. So please try and cut down the venom in your words, you might actually find that people will be more reasonable in their responses.
Unfortunately, I am also one of your Ba Ba Blacksheep, faarin-returned (actually I didn`t return) kalloo-goraa, totaa-mainaa etc, but it doesn`t mean we cannot be civilized to one another. Please consider. Thank you again.
...SR
#52 Posted by hamidm2 on March 8, 2005 4:11:20 pm
democracy for dummies ........
mr gill, if you don`t mind, let me give some simple answers to mr romair`s brilliant questions .........
Are you suggesting that democracy is not possible without secularism?
............... yes - without the separation of church and state you cannot have constitutional liberalism
Are you suggesting that democracy without secularism is useless?
.............. yes - otherwise what you have is elections that can be manipulated by nazis, communists, mullahs or others of their ilk
Are you suggesting that secularism is more important than democracy or vice-versa?
................. secularism is a necessary (but not sufficient) condition for democracy
If Iraq ends up with democracy with a religious govt. will it be better off than being under a secularism dictatorship?
............ there can be no democracy with a religious government (you can have elections, like in iran )
............ please correct me if i am wrong ............
mr gill, if you don`t mind, let me give some simple answers to mr romair`s brilliant questions .........
Are you suggesting that democracy is not possible without secularism?
............... yes - without the separation of church and state you cannot have constitutional liberalism
Are you suggesting that democracy without secularism is useless?
.............. yes - otherwise what you have is elections that can be manipulated by nazis, communists, mullahs or others of their ilk
Are you suggesting that secularism is more important than democracy or vice-versa?
................. secularism is a necessary (but not sufficient) condition for democracy
If Iraq ends up with democracy with a religious govt. will it be better off than being under a secularism dictatorship?
............ there can be no democracy with a religious government (you can have elections, like in iran )
............ please correct me if i am wrong ............
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