What is Secularism?
Mohammad Gill March 18, 2005
#82 Posted by hamidm2 on March 20, 2005 4:57:55 pm
Re: # 81
razi mian,
``Saying that secularism is inevitable in the modern world and is a necessary evil is a different claim from commending it. ``
........... do you know how silly that sounds? ........... it is kind of like saying :
``Saying that a round wheel is better than a square wheel is a different claim from commending it``
.......... the problem with islam is that even its most ``reasonable`` proponents are precariously close to the lunatic fringe ............
razi mian,
``Saying that secularism is inevitable in the modern world and is a necessary evil is a different claim from commending it. ``
........... do you know how silly that sounds? ........... it is kind of like saying :
``Saying that a round wheel is better than a square wheel is a different claim from commending it``
.......... the problem with islam is that even its most ``reasonable`` proponents are precariously close to the lunatic fringe ............
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#81 Posted by Razijaffery on March 20, 2005 4:47:04 pm
Salam Dr. Gill,
A few comments: The move from descriptive secularism (what it is) to normative secularism (defensible, plausible, inevitable, ougth-to-be) in your article is not very clear and you did not present any argumets for it. Iqbal`s own understanding of this issue could be questionable and indeed is after at least 83 years of Ataturk`s usurp of power in Turkey. Iqbal did not live long to deliberate on the consequences of secularism. I know of one girl here who had to leave Turkey to wear Hijab. The birth of secularism and its eventual embracement as a state religion - read Chirac`s speech on why wearing religious symbols cannot be accomodated in France - and you might see the potential conflict between Islam and secularism. Furthermore, your comment on religious equality goes against the Islamic legal understanding of `dhimmis` which accepts no egalitarianism and treats non-Muslims as secondary class citizens while taking into account their human dignity. This of course is a complicated matter and I won`t extend any straightforward claims about it. Saying that secularism is inevitable in the modern world and is a necessary evil is a different claim from commending it. I have a hunch that you are arguing for the latter and in doing that not paying enough attention to how and in what sense it contradicts traditional Islamic understanding of religion and politics, which as you yourself noted were not separate spheres.
A few comments: The move from descriptive secularism (what it is) to normative secularism (defensible, plausible, inevitable, ougth-to-be) in your article is not very clear and you did not present any argumets for it. Iqbal`s own understanding of this issue could be questionable and indeed is after at least 83 years of Ataturk`s usurp of power in Turkey. Iqbal did not live long to deliberate on the consequences of secularism. I know of one girl here who had to leave Turkey to wear Hijab. The birth of secularism and its eventual embracement as a state religion - read Chirac`s speech on why wearing religious symbols cannot be accomodated in France - and you might see the potential conflict between Islam and secularism. Furthermore, your comment on religious equality goes against the Islamic legal understanding of `dhimmis` which accepts no egalitarianism and treats non-Muslims as secondary class citizens while taking into account their human dignity. This of course is a complicated matter and I won`t extend any straightforward claims about it. Saying that secularism is inevitable in the modern world and is a necessary evil is a different claim from commending it. I have a hunch that you are arguing for the latter and in doing that not paying enough attention to how and in what sense it contradicts traditional Islamic understanding of religion and politics, which as you yourself noted were not separate spheres.
#80 Posted by delhiwala on March 20, 2005 4:09:01 pm
Re: # 75
Yes, Change will spread in the masses in not just Pakistan but elsewhere. Muslims have access to internet and other mass media tools now. They will not stay satisfied with their present status in their home countries.
Once they start asking change it will like Domino Effect.
It is so true and you all know it, but are delusional in your thinking.
Yes, Change will spread in the masses in not just Pakistan but elsewhere. Muslims have access to internet and other mass media tools now. They will not stay satisfied with their present status in their home countries.
Once they start asking change it will like Domino Effect.
It is so true and you all know it, but are delusional in your thinking.
#79 Posted by echoboom on March 20, 2005 11:30:31 am
Other nations forbid blasphemy,
so why don`t we?
By James Lileks
A court has ruled that a fashion company can`t run ads that make fun of the Last Supper. To be specific:They can`t make fun of a painting done 1,500 years after the event. Pretentious denim-vendors Girbaud parodied Leonardo DaVinci`s famous painting; bishops complained, and the government banned the ad.
Typical for Red-State-Uber-Alles Amerika, eh?
But this happened in France. Yes, it`s Europe that has blasphemy laws - secular, post-Christianity Europe, ome-for-the-cathedrals-and-stay-for-the-hash-cafe Europe. The ruling came from a French court in response to a case brought by a group of
French bishops.
Said Thierry Massis, the bishops` lawyer, ``When you attack sacred things, you create a moral violence that is dangerous for our children. Tomorrow we`ll have Christ selling socks.`` Don`t give them any ideas. It`s still a miracle that Lot`s wife hasn`t endorsed Morton Salt. The bishops` complaint might seem rather exaggerated,
.....continued
so why don`t we?
By James Lileks
A court has ruled that a fashion company can`t run ads that make fun of the Last Supper. To be specific:They can`t make fun of a painting done 1,500 years after the event. Pretentious denim-vendors Girbaud parodied Leonardo DaVinci`s famous painting; bishops complained, and the government banned the ad.
Typical for Red-State-Uber-Alles Amerika, eh?
But this happened in France. Yes, it`s Europe that has blasphemy laws - secular, post-Christianity Europe, ome-for-the-cathedrals-and-stay-for-the-hash-cafe Europe. The ruling came from a French court in response to a case brought by a group of
French bishops.
Said Thierry Massis, the bishops` lawyer, ``When you attack sacred things, you create a moral violence that is dangerous for our children. Tomorrow we`ll have Christ selling socks.`` Don`t give them any ideas. It`s still a miracle that Lot`s wife hasn`t endorsed Morton Salt. The bishops` complaint might seem rather exaggerated,
.....continued
#78 Posted by echoboom on March 20, 2005 9:44:10 am
69:Mantolives
What is it in #60 that got your goat?.
And what is this ``hint`` about Iqbal Academy? An ``insider``? `He` should know better.
Since when has it been an exclusive domain of the Iqbal Academy to convert even a ``Once-muslim`` , let alone, as you put it, ``goraa-chura``.
Goraas, chura or not-chura (your term), are flocking to Islam on their own. Perhaps you choose to read and report only what leads to further delusions about the Ba Ba Blacksheep of Paki Baighairat Leadership.
Hamidm2: #64
Tiktiki was the frame on which the Zanees/Sahraabees were spreadeagled before the Jallad would take a long start form the ``pavilion Line`` , whip-lash in hand like a cowboy minus horse would strike upon the wretched one.
This, I`m told, was the great Jumma Matinee and a the crowd chanted Allah-O-Akber in unison but with baited glee and fear. You would have been a show-piece exhibit, but you did the wise thing and left.
The stupid thing that you do is that you are still not content with your boozing-buddy companions. You keep in touch with the masjid crowd, you visit their homes, you make this a subject in your household. You torment yourself unnecessarily.
Look hamidm2: I`m not that ``good`` a person and you are not that ``bad``. The way your frothy-foam calms down and settles tell me a lot about you. You and I could perhaps be equally at home in a masjid or a maikhana--but why give an inch here, right?:)
You ARE a closet mullah . We know that. Only ``horrible-hindoos`` should not discover that.
PS: Your read on Wahabbis is right on!(#76), but then this is the nexus between The Saudi
family (Saudi; as in Umvee & Abbasi) and the Imperialists. Wahabi ``teachings`` have been lassoed in and the common man in Saudia is as much oppressed by the Imperialist lackeys ( Saudis) as the Pakistanis ( or other muslims) are by their own ``Masters, not Friends``.
Tahmed32, by the way, subscribes to the Wahabee thought , if not belonging to the sect.
Whatever he says he is at heart a well-meaning muslim.
You will not find me critical of any ``sect`` among muslims for ``political`` reasons. That is supposed to be a private affair--a family thing. If you give a chink of opening to the ``free-thinkers`` they try to make inroads into the house.
Incidentally for our hindoo friends: There are quite a many hindoo saudi-arabians who have been there for centuries. They dress, walk, and talk like well everyone else. Very powerfull financially as well as ``advisors`` to the Royals. Most Pakistanis mistake them for muslims.
The ``Dehlvi`` clan is one of the prominent Indian but muslim clan. They have been there for
almost 400 years.
What is it in #60 that got your goat?.
And what is this ``hint`` about Iqbal Academy? An ``insider``? `He` should know better.
Since when has it been an exclusive domain of the Iqbal Academy to convert even a ``Once-muslim`` , let alone, as you put it, ``goraa-chura``.
Goraas, chura or not-chura (your term), are flocking to Islam on their own. Perhaps you choose to read and report only what leads to further delusions about the Ba Ba Blacksheep of Paki Baighairat Leadership.
Hamidm2: #64
Tiktiki was the frame on which the Zanees/Sahraabees were spreadeagled before the Jallad would take a long start form the ``pavilion Line`` , whip-lash in hand like a cowboy minus horse would strike upon the wretched one.
This, I`m told, was the great Jumma Matinee and a the crowd chanted Allah-O-Akber in unison but with baited glee and fear. You would have been a show-piece exhibit, but you did the wise thing and left.
The stupid thing that you do is that you are still not content with your boozing-buddy companions. You keep in touch with the masjid crowd, you visit their homes, you make this a subject in your household. You torment yourself unnecessarily.
Look hamidm2: I`m not that ``good`` a person and you are not that ``bad``. The way your frothy-foam calms down and settles tell me a lot about you. You and I could perhaps be equally at home in a masjid or a maikhana--but why give an inch here, right?:)
You ARE a closet mullah . We know that. Only ``horrible-hindoos`` should not discover that.
PS: Your read on Wahabbis is right on!(#76), but then this is the nexus between The Saudi
family (Saudi; as in Umvee & Abbasi) and the Imperialists. Wahabi ``teachings`` have been lassoed in and the common man in Saudia is as much oppressed by the Imperialist lackeys ( Saudis) as the Pakistanis ( or other muslims) are by their own ``Masters, not Friends``.
Tahmed32, by the way, subscribes to the Wahabee thought , if not belonging to the sect.
Whatever he says he is at heart a well-meaning muslim.
You will not find me critical of any ``sect`` among muslims for ``political`` reasons. That is supposed to be a private affair--a family thing. If you give a chink of opening to the ``free-thinkers`` they try to make inroads into the house.
Incidentally for our hindoo friends: There are quite a many hindoo saudi-arabians who have been there for centuries. They dress, walk, and talk like well everyone else. Very powerfull financially as well as ``advisors`` to the Royals. Most Pakistanis mistake them for muslims.
The ``Dehlvi`` clan is one of the prominent Indian but muslim clan. They have been there for
almost 400 years.
#77 Posted by ZahraJ on March 20, 2005 9:28:06 am
Re: # 75
Theek Hae`, but still your stance is not very convincing.
Rozaiba`s two cents had a perspective. Still not too convincing!
Theek Hae`, but still your stance is not very convincing.
Rozaiba`s two cents had a perspective. Still not too convincing!
#76 Posted by hamidm2 on March 20, 2005 8:33:14 am
women in prayer .......
............ in and of itself, women leading congregations of the faithful in religious rituals is no big deal as zahraj points out, but it is one small step in opening up islam like other religions, secret orders and cults before it ........... after all, even most christian churches, jewish sects and indian tribes seem to have a problem with women leading men in prayer and rain dances .......... it all goes back to men having a problem with following women - the last time they did it they got thrown out of the garden of eden ............
.......... but, on a more serious note, this is exactly what is needed to break the hold of wahabi islam which keeps the majority of muslims mired in regressive and retrograde obscurantism.........tody it is a woman leading prayers, tomorrow it might be a sect that declares that prayers are mandatory only once a week and who knows, god willing, we might one day have the ulema given in and allow wine on weekends .............. sects like the druze and ismailis already offer a path to modernity and any small step by the mainstream that breaks with 1400 yeart old traditions is a step in the right direction ............
............ in and of itself, women leading congregations of the faithful in religious rituals is no big deal as zahraj points out, but it is one small step in opening up islam like other religions, secret orders and cults before it ........... after all, even most christian churches, jewish sects and indian tribes seem to have a problem with women leading men in prayer and rain dances .......... it all goes back to men having a problem with following women - the last time they did it they got thrown out of the garden of eden ............
.......... but, on a more serious note, this is exactly what is needed to break the hold of wahabi islam which keeps the majority of muslims mired in regressive and retrograde obscurantism.........tody it is a woman leading prayers, tomorrow it might be a sect that declares that prayers are mandatory only once a week and who knows, god willing, we might one day have the ulema given in and allow wine on weekends .............. sects like the druze and ismailis already offer a path to modernity and any small step by the mainstream that breaks with 1400 yeart old traditions is a step in the right direction ............
#75 Posted by freethinker on March 20, 2005 8:18:27 am
ZahraJ:
The point that I tried to make was that the world is changing. Our stereotypical thinking will have to change too. Our old mindset will need to give in to the new realities, whether we like it or not.
Lady Imam was unthinkable in the past but soon in the future it will cease to be a big deal. Those of us who are holding fast to the old orthodox model in which woman was only `the queen of the kitchen` are in for a big a shock. (Muslim) Woman is finding her own space in the modern world. She is becoming captain of her own ship.
Mohammad Gill
The point that I tried to make was that the world is changing. Our stereotypical thinking will have to change too. Our old mindset will need to give in to the new realities, whether we like it or not.
Lady Imam was unthinkable in the past but soon in the future it will cease to be a big deal. Those of us who are holding fast to the old orthodox model in which woman was only `the queen of the kitchen` are in for a big a shock. (Muslim) Woman is finding her own space in the modern world. She is becoming captain of her own ship.
Mohammad Gill
#73 Posted by ZahraJ on March 20, 2005 7:44:59 am
#71: I see your perspective, but what`s the big deal about it.
- Is it because she will be a role model for other women?
- Is it because now male imams will be challenged?
- Is it because it is a controversial role?
I guess I am missing the point. When it comes to prayers, I am more interested in the prayers than who is leading. It may be something to do with the fact that I rarely perform my prayers in a group like scenario. Since I work in NY City, am I going to frequent this mosque because of the Lady Imam? If it is in the vicinity of midtown, I may like to visit for the sake of curiosity. I do not think that my prayers would become richer and more focused because of the gender of the Imam.
From the equality perspective, it makes sense. If a man can lead the prayers, a woman should be able to do so. I won`t take it any further.
Zahra
- Is it because she will be a role model for other women?
- Is it because now male imams will be challenged?
- Is it because it is a controversial role?
I guess I am missing the point. When it comes to prayers, I am more interested in the prayers than who is leading. It may be something to do with the fact that I rarely perform my prayers in a group like scenario. Since I work in NY City, am I going to frequent this mosque because of the Lady Imam? If it is in the vicinity of midtown, I may like to visit for the sake of curiosity. I do not think that my prayers would become richer and more focused because of the gender of the Imam.
From the equality perspective, it makes sense. If a man can lead the prayers, a woman should be able to do so. I won`t take it any further.
Zahra
#71 Posted by freethinker on March 20, 2005 3:21:03 am
Regarding Dr. Amina Wadud; there has been more emphasis on her leading the Friday prayer, which truly is a revolutionary event than her being a Professor of Islamic Studies in a U.S. university. If a woman has led the Friday prayer once, it will happen again and again and again. Not only by Dr. Wadud, by other women also. This is how our world is changing.
To me, the fact of Dr. Wadud being a professor and an author (like Fatima Mernissi, perhaps) is an equally important thing. We need many more like her.
Mohammad Gill
To me, the fact of Dr. Wadud being a professor and an author (like Fatima Mernissi, perhaps) is an equally important thing. We need many more like her.
Mohammad Gill
#70 Posted by freethinker on March 20, 2005 3:01:22 am
nazarhayatkhan sahib:
You wrote Wahab was born only 300 years ago. It`s a long time on the scale at which developments are currently taking place. The last century has been a revolutionary one. It gave us relativity, comprehension of an expanding universe, quantum mechanics, nuclear energy and Nagasaki and Hiroshima, computer and internet which triggered the globalization. We`re living in one small village now. Darwin`s theory of evolution was produced in the nineteenth century.
Those who want to reverse the time and go back 1400 years (because that is when the world began in their perception) in time are living in fantasy land. They`ll be the losers.
We`ll have to remove the religious prism to see the world around us. Yesterday I published an article (Twenty Years After) in Dawn (Sci-Tech magazine) on string theory. I received an e-mail from an excited high school Muslim girl (I assume from Pakistan) who wants to know more about `strings` and the M-theory. This is a hopeful sign Wishing you well,
Mohammad Gill
You wrote Wahab was born only 300 years ago. It`s a long time on the scale at which developments are currently taking place. The last century has been a revolutionary one. It gave us relativity, comprehension of an expanding universe, quantum mechanics, nuclear energy and Nagasaki and Hiroshima, computer and internet which triggered the globalization. We`re living in one small village now. Darwin`s theory of evolution was produced in the nineteenth century.
Those who want to reverse the time and go back 1400 years (because that is when the world began in their perception) in time are living in fantasy land. They`ll be the losers.
We`ll have to remove the religious prism to see the world around us. Yesterday I published an article (Twenty Years After) in Dawn (Sci-Tech magazine) on string theory. I received an e-mail from an excited high school Muslim girl (I assume from Pakistan) who wants to know more about `strings` and the M-theory. This is a hopeful sign Wishing you well,
Mohammad Gill
#69 Posted by MantoLives on March 20, 2005 2:08:11 am
Re: # 60
Tell me oh great one .... why do you reside in the heathen darul-Harb of the secular west...
Have you tried to ``Kush`` some ``farangis`` recently... Has your ``Iqbal academy`` in Canada converted the ``gora churas`` ?
You are a tax paying citizen/resident of Canada right? The British Queen is your sovereign.... Doob kay mur jao tum!
And you have the nerve to call others names?
Tell me oh great one .... why do you reside in the heathen darul-Harb of the secular west...
Have you tried to ``Kush`` some ``farangis`` recently... Has your ``Iqbal academy`` in Canada converted the ``gora churas`` ?
You are a tax paying citizen/resident of Canada right? The British Queen is your sovereign.... Doob kay mur jao tum!
And you have the nerve to call others names?
#68 Posted by MantoLives on March 20, 2005 2:02:49 am
Re: #66
So ... obviously the guy drew the cartoon was an idiot of the highest order...
The organization which is responsible for this Woman led khutba is on the hit list of Daniel Pipes as an ``Islamist`` organization....
The organization i.e. Progressive Muslims Union is anti-BUSH anti-WAR to the core... it is a creature of the left...
So... some idiot gets up and draws and the cartoon and you, urstruly, of all people reproduce it here...
Sad.
So ... obviously the guy drew the cartoon was an idiot of the highest order...
The organization which is responsible for this Woman led khutba is on the hit list of Daniel Pipes as an ``Islamist`` organization....
The organization i.e. Progressive Muslims Union is anti-BUSH anti-WAR to the core... it is a creature of the left...
So... some idiot gets up and draws and the cartoon and you, urstruly, of all people reproduce it here...
Sad.
#67 Posted by nazarhayatkhan on March 19, 2005 10:47:10 pm
Gill
I am with you & laud your direction. But if you think explanation of definition of `secularism` can lead to rosy days, that is not true. You are touching the tip of the iceberg. And prescribing aspirine for head injuries.
Islam is fundamentally an exclusive religion. And it openly treats everyone else as being wrong. The others are required to be put on the right path and, if required, even by force. Or even eliminated. Other scriptures may also be having intolerant streaks but their followers have moved on.
We will not go into a needless debate on this issue. But Wahab of Saudi Arabia was born only about 300 years ago and the real radical Islam is not older than the last 70 years or so and is timed with the discovery of oil in the Saudi Kingdom.
No reformation is on the horizon. The only reformation is wide spread liberal education and letting the socities to simply move on.
And permit the women to be Imams in the mosques as the picture below shows.
nhk
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