A Good Reason To Cheer

Friends,
I am a well-wisher of BOTH India AND Pakistan. Please note that in the long term ``India on fire`` or ``Pakistan going to the dogs`` is not good for either nation. As it is, people elsewhere in the world cannot distinguish Indian from Pakistani. They frequent each other`s restaurants, spice stores, and theaters (OK, I went overboard, well, at least the Pakis go to watch Indian movies). State-sponsored wide-spread rapes, murders, looting, arson, and mayhem by cheering, jeering, howling, police-led mobs with symbols painted on their faces and teeth missing from their mouths are gruesome sights. People elsewhere start connecting Gujarat with India and India with Pakistan. In the end all desis appear as immigrants from areas where life is cheap, where emotions are let loose with unmatched fury, where women are covered head to toe but raped at the slightest excuse, where children are loved by their parents, who are very much at ease in justifying the rape, burning, and slaughter of other parents` children. Whether it`s mass murder in Gujarat, public panchayat-sanctioned rape in Pakistani Punjab, wife abuse after Friday prayers in NWFP, rape of physician by army officer in Baluchistan, or sadistic mistreatment of Dalits all over India, the collateral victims will be those hailing from the sub-continent. You can justify almost anything, but in the end, people may judge you for what you resemble without asking your permission. For our own selfish reasons, let`s learn to be civilized.

Revathy,
Extremely well-written and unmistakenly compassionate to the victims. I think that your distaste for the 2002 massacres came through your words as if you yourself had suffered the horrible rapes, mutilation, burning, and slaughter. Thank you for your compassion, your objectivity, and your delight at Mr. Modi receiving at least a proverbial slap in the face. With people like you around, I am not that worried about India`s place in human society.

Romair: U are right. But the point is that there are no short cuts and elections, howeever messy, need to be the first state to build a civic society. Even if NS and BB are corrupt to the core, the fact that they are answerable to the people would make a difference.

The fact is Pakistan never had a democracy. Not because leaders were never freely elected, but because leaders never stepped down due to the popular vote. As Indira Gandhi did even after declaring emergency and still losing elections.

The rampage in Gujarat was criticized all across India except in the state itself where communal polarization was at its peak. The issue here is foreign intervention, not the viability of Modi as a leader.

Do these leftist idiots really think that refusing a visa will make Modi moderate? If anything they have made a martyr out of him. I do believe in secularism, in fact I believe in Jinnah`s secularism. One where religion is not the business of the state. But I want the feeling of secularism come from within, not forced top down by foreign countries or by a liberal elite. In fact the Hindu backlash in Iindia is a direct result of the ``vote bank secularism`` practised by the elite. The results are there to see.

Xposted from YLH`s thread:

http://www.islaminterfaith.org/dec2004/article1.htm

Limited information, of course, but it is hard to imagine that Maulana Kalbe Sadiq presents any kind of threat to the US.

Re: # 58

I agree with what you have written, but would like to point the fact that Modi won a landslide victory after the riots. According to his supporters, that vindicates him.

Revathy,

The US that denies Modi a visa also denies others visas - or turns them back at the airport even when they have valid visas: see the following, taken from the Pioneer. The issue of Modi has to be settled in India, not by the US Dept of State or by the International Court of Justice. In any case, only if Indians take on Modi is there any assurance that Gujarat-like events won`t happen again. What is going on is not well-intentioned, as visible below, it is blatant interference by the US in the affairs of India. The rejoicing is premature.

-Arun


Shias up in arms after US does a Modi on Sadiq

Subodh Ghildiyal/Siddharth Kalhans/ New Delhi/Lucknow

Shia community in India is up in arms against the treatment meted out to cleric Kalbe Sadiq by the United States of America. Conspiracy theories are back in the currency against the US and anti-US sentiment has resurfaced after the lull following the attack on Iraq.

A much-respected cleric, Sadiq was turned back from Chicago airport on March 17 and had to return to the United Kingdom. Sadiq was on an invitation from the Shia Assocation for a religious Moharram congregation. Kalbe Sadiq is on his annual three-month trip to Gulf-UK-US where he is welcomed to address the `majlis`.

This is not an isolated incident as the Shias are drawing a pattern after two more scholars were denied entry by the US in March, the month of Moharram. Maulana Safi Haider of Tanzimul Makatib Madrasa (group of 1000 madrasas) was barred entry earlier in March by the US. Another scholar Maulana Qazi Askari of Delhi was reportedly ``humiliated and turned back`` by the US in March.

The community leaders said the American Shia Association had registered its protest with the White House and demanded an apology from President Bush.

With the news trickling down, anti-US sentiments, too, have begun to spread in the city of Lucknow which has a five-lakh strong Shia community. Posters and pamphlets protesting the treatment meted out to the religious leader were distributed in the Shia-dominated localities of Kazmain, Pull Ghulam Hussain and Dargah Hazrat Abbas. It is believed that Maulana Kalbe Jawwad, another respected Shia cleric and Imam-e-Juma, may speak on the issue to the community in the Majlis after the Friday prayers in Imambara tomorrow. The `majlis`, the community leader said, may see good attendance.

Speaking to The Pioneer, Kalbe Sibtain, Sadiq`s son, said his father had a valid visa but was barred entry at the Chicago airport without any reason. ``He told us that he had been quoted Article 235 (b) of some law of the country,`` he said.

Sadiq has been visiting the US for the last three decades as a preacher. ``He has never had any problem. It has all changed after September 11, we think,`` said Sibtain, adding, ``He was shocked but said we should not raise a hue and cry about it.``

However, the issue has already acquired sharp anti-US overtones. Kalbe Jawwad blamed the ill-treatment meted out to Sadiq on US attempts to drive a wedge between Muslims in general (Sadiq is opposed to a separate Shia Board and is vice-president of All India Muslim Personal Law Board) and the Shia community in particular. He blamed the recent formation of a separate Shia Board as against the AIMPLB umbrella on the ``evil`` US designs. ``The new board was formed on US directions and the people responsible are presently enjoying their stay in America,`` said Maulana Jawaad. Incidentally, Maulana Atthar, who heads the newly-formed Shia Board, and other office-bearers are on a tour to the US. ``Those who are touring US for 30 years are denied entry and those who have never done so are given fresh visas. The gameplan is clear,`` said Jawwad.

Jawwad`s line of argument has led to competitive anti-Americanism. Debunking the accusation that his father was an American stooge, Atthar`s son Maulana Yasoob Abbas speculated that the root of the ill-treatment to Sadiq could lay in the anti-US stance he adopted during and after the attack on Iraq. ``There were strong protests in Lucknow and entry of Americans to Shia monuments was barred. Sadiq had also participated in a pro-Saddam rally organised in Ramlila Maidan in Delhi in June 2004,`` he said, adding that this was the first Moharram after the protest rally.

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{PS., Kalbe Sadiq is a follower of Ayatollah Sistani, and thus the rally refered to above could have been anti-American, but could hardly have been pro-Saddam}

re: stuka # 56

Great point. Hinduism differs in that it arises from an empty core, while many others approach religion by filling the core with everything imaginable.

Those five pillars of Hinduism are merely re-statements of the varna system, with the originally available freedom emphasized separately as an additional pillar.

It`s traditional hinduism as hindus intutitively understand it, described in a language more accessible to everyone.

I think the discussion around Modi highlights the fact that a democratic system requires all three branches (legislative, executive and judiciary) to function, as designed. If any one of these is comprimised, then the system fails and can even be turned on its head to legitimize human rights violations.

Elections, in and of themselves, do not give any individual (or elected body) carte blanche in doing anything he/she wants. If that were the case, the a President could start shooting at people and killing them. Since he/she is elected, nothing could be done about it.

Even after elections, the elected person (or body) remains subservient to the judiciary. This is why Bill Clinton could have been kicked out, even though he was elected to a four year term.

In Pakistan, Nawaz Sharif was having a case heard against him in the Supreme Court. There was a chance that he would be found guilty. So he physically stormed the Supreme Court. But the Chief Justice stood his ground. So he then split the Supreme Court in two pieces and had the judges get rid of their own Chief Justice. He appointed one of those ex-judges as the next President of the country. And the cases against him were not heard again, until after the coup.

Similarly, Benazir has been convicted in Switzerland, by a court, for corruption and kickbacks. She will get convicted in Pakistan also, for the same massive corruption, if she returns to face the judiciary. This is why she is living abroad. She is currently trying to put political pressure on the govt., through her party. Her main demand is that she will co-operate with the govt., not if it listens to her party`s demands. But if the govt. specifically drops all corruption cases against her. There is a good chance she would win any election for Prime Minister, even today, due to Pakistan`s feudal-based elections. After which, she could return to Pakistan, get elected, and ensure, her cases are never heard again.

So if we use, ``being elected`` as the only criteria for democracy, then Nawaz Sharif and Benazir will get elected again. And after that, they can influence the courts to drop all charges against them. Similarly Modi is, ``elected.`` But that is only half the democratic process. If he has been found not guilty by a fair and independent judiciary, then he completes the full description of democracy. No one can then argue against him.

However, if he, or his party, has been able to influence the judiciary and/or witnesses, thereby exonerating him, then his being, ``elected`` becomes meaningless. Infact, it becomes more a hinderance to fairplay and legitimacy, because people will continue to use that to justify any action against him...................

``One thing I amire and envy of the muslims is their peerless unity an support for a fellow muslim, irrespective of morality and duty, in front of an outsider. Others should learn this trait``

Kaura, Leftists who belong to the Muslim faith do no such thing. There is some ``Muslim Woman`` forgetting her name who chooses to debase her own religion in her book. I was shocked by what I read.

Basically Marxism is its own religion, and dangerous too all others.

Kaalchakra:

An excellent post.

To embrace all things at all times means that one does not hold any store for one`s own values.

Pride at one`s own value system has to necessarily translate into a disdain for those values that are inmical to your own.

I like the points you make though I would differ with your classification of it being limited to Hinduism. I would be glad if those are the values that Hinduism chooses to embrace, however.

53 by echoboom on March 24, 2005 9:53am PT


It is time that at least China, India, and the muslims


So you`re saying the hindus, the muslims and the commies should make common cause against the US....

I knew you were crazy....didn`t figure you`d be stupid as well....

re: Stuka # 43

Tragically we have learnt to take bits and pieces of our mode of living, and label those tattered pieces as Hinduism.

The ``all-embracing, all-inclusive`` provision of Hinduism has been/is/must be a very small part of a much larger, sustainable, positively oriented, whole. Anybody who embraces every living creature, needs to have his head examined, and will be very badly hurt. The strange fetish of blind embrace takes advantage away from the embracer and hands it to the embraced, irrespective of their comparative abilities.

For too long we have lived in the stultifying shadows of ``Hinduism`` defined by others for their own convenience We need to step forward and articulate our own Hinduism - one that expresses our own thinking and aspirations.

We need to receive a comprehensive view that is simultaneously ancient and modern. We await a view that respects the individuality of all our diverse peoples, yet captures the overall complexity, dynamism, and elegance of the full range of Indic thought and Indic living.

---

Once I had summarized ``Hinduism as defined by Hindus`` in terms of its five pillars as follows:


We Hindus define Hinduism to be our individual and collective pursuit of constantly greater

1. knowledge - through all forms and means of understanding

2. Warring ability - through ever vigilant recognition and monitoring of existing and new threats; and proactive acquisition, maintenance, and timely use of overwhelming intellectual, spiritual, social, physical, and military power against all unfriendly peoples and unfriendly ideologies

3. Wellbeing - though accumulation and use of economic wealth; and achievement, appreciation, and maintenance of beautiful healthy living, which enhances individual happiness and social harmony

4. Productivity and creativity - through highest possible productivity, unfettered creativity, and courageous quest for new and greater possibilities in all human endeavors

5. Freedom - to enter and exit the boundaries of Hinduism; to maintain multiple or no religious affiliations; to choose the forms, rituals, words, and places of worship; to determine manners of relating and communicating with the Great Unknown; to arrange, conduct, and terminate all worldly affairs in a manner of one`s own choosing, including selecting one`s calling, one`s mate, one`s language and form of expression, and place of dwelling, as commensurate with our common and fundamental pursuits of knowledge, warring ability, wellbeing, productivity, and creativity.

None of us may be alive to see this or better articulated Hinduism replace the externally defined, tattered bits people carry in their heads. But there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that this most ancient and modern of all religions needs Hindus` own, widest possible, articulation.

Despite my complete revulsion at what Modi did (and the internal enquiry does hold him culpable) I am not prepared to let the cat settle any dispute among the two monkeys.

This investiture of authority to the cat by the monkey in-house brawls has suppressed the monkey`s evolution.

If modi had done something bad to americans, irrespective of their belief, I would not object at all. In fact I would support & applaud it.

As an `as if` scenario, Would Indira `emegency` Gandhi be treated the same?

This interference whether in Iran-Gas pipeline & many other matters around the world must be confronted & countered head-on.

It is time that at least China, India, and the muslims who form over 50% of the world should make sure that the elephant, the donkey, and the bulldog stay corralled on a short leash.

It is not impossible. All it needs is a sense of honour, dignity, and self-respect.

Rest follows in the wake.

I keep reading these articles by Revathy Gopal and their types on Chowk. And I keep reading the very justifiably enraged reactions from Indians who are patriotic and have not prostituted themselves to anti-national and anti-hindu forces. I find people like Harimau, Prashant123 etc. trying strenuously to bolster their arguments with logic and facts.

It’s like they are saying – see, I’m not just saying this for nothing – I have this, this and this fact to support this. But the types like Revathy Gopal are different – they are one-time bomb-throwers. Throw a bomb in the middle of Chowk and leave, and watch the fun from the sidelines.

Initially I used to wonder, if these people are really so morally strenuous, then why don’t they engage in debate? Why don’t they try to refute the points raised by these people?
I think I understand why. I think the answer lies in the background these people come from. I think these people are carrying a chip on their shoulders due to something in their past, family background, perceived ethnic slights suffered – something. It could even be that people like Revathy Gopal and RSridhar are actually anti-Indian muslims assuming false identities. They are just after the perverse pleasure of seeing their hated adverseries go nuts.

I knew a Indian muslim couple, and once they invited me and my parents over for dinner. During dinner, my mother found one of the pieces of meat kind of strange, and my friend’s wife on questioning revealed that she had served us beef. On our way back, we were discussing why they had done that, since they were from India, and knew we were brahmins. We concluded that it was their way of getting back at us Hindus, seeing us eat beef would give them some kind of perverse pleasure. Seeing Revathy in action I wonder whether her situation might not be similar in some way. Something from her background rejoices in seeing hindus being bashed.

People like Amrita I have much more respect for. Amrita might be an idiot, but she is an honest idiot. She is honestly trying to come up with arguments that her feeble intellect allows her to. Feeble intellect – you say this is an accusation unsupported by facts? How about this – 1. How come she doesn’t have an answer to the question – why, if she’s so fair, has she never written about the anti-sikh riots, or the current government’s efforts to suppress the report? 2. How come she doesn’t comprehend that letting America with its background pass a judgement on one of our elected ministers, without even the pretense of due process is a slap on India’s face… 3. How come she has never been able to refute a single point that, for example HariMau has raised regarding the accuracy of the reporting on the Gujarat riots. 4. How come she does not consider the chief minister of Gujarat who was present during the last big riot, guilty of the same thing. 5. How come she does not write so passionately about Kashmiri Hindus… I could go on forever.

And to all of those who wonder why we bother to come in to Chowk at all and try to debate – it is only because there is an International audience, and influences how India is perceived internationally – which in turn affects India’s fortunes. If the audience was limited to Pakistan, believe me, you would not find us even looking your way.

The interference by the White House in the case of Terri Schiavo — the woman at the centre of America`s latest right-to-die controversy — marks another milestone in President George W. Bush`s campaign for faith over fact. More concerned with the wonder of miracles than Ms. Schiavo`s 15-year irreversible vegetative state, Mr. Bush and his allies have blithely overturned multiple court decisions to maintain artificial feeding and let evangelical populism triumph over medical opinion.

Thanks to the policies and prejudices of the Bush administration, science has become a dirty word. In many classrooms, the teaching of evolution is hampered by the teachers themselves.

Leftist and `Liberals` are the fifth column. They are hell bent on destroying the democratic and secular states which gives them liberty to free thought. Cancer of the body. Others are taking advantage of this weakness. There is a backlash in the US. That is why Bush with bungled war and poor economy was able to win the reelection, and Modi stayed in power.

One thing I amire and envy of the muslims is their peerless unity an support for a fellow muslim, irrespective of morality and duty, in front of an outsider. Others should learn this trait.