A Good Reason To Cheer

Harimau #168,
{``These organizations, although different in many respects, have all promoted the argument that because Hindus constitute the majority of Indians, India should be a Hindu state. ``}

They have the right to decide what they want to do. As long as it is done in a manner that does not involve mass murder, rapes, arson, and looting. When they do these horrible things, they and their benefactors, should be tried as criminals for their misdeeds. Those who support their behavior should be kept under close scrutiny.

#171
``the means to separate weapons-grade plutonium from the output of the karachi nuclear reactor was there as far back as 1981``

The KANUPP CANDU reactor is under IAEA safeguards so its highly unlikely that Pakistan could have extracted plutonium from the spent fuel from that reactor.

But, what the heck, sometimes truth can be stranger than fiction! Could you ask your contact once more if he really means they extracted plutonium from spent fuel from KANUPP :-)

How about ``doint things that are bound to get you caught equals incompetence`` then?
Or how about ``jeopardizing your country`s defense strategy for personal gain equals treachery``? Save your applause for people like Dr. Munir and the hundreds of brave and talented Pakistanis who worked quietly and without fanfare and at government pay scales to make their country safe.

I am aware that KRL is a separate entity (a profit making enterprise for qadeer, I may add). But that changes nothing. As I said in #163, qadeer was responsible for one step of a bigger process only. And the overall process was PAEC managed. I did not even mention the critical testing process. The preparation of test facilities and conduct of tests was with PAEC, and also totally out of qadeer`s hands - and a number of cold tests were done at chagai there prior to 1988. nevertheless, qadeer pushed himself into the limelight after chagai by holding a press conference - and the PAEC`s chagrin with qadeers shenanigans following chagai even hit pakistani newspapers of the time.

Urstruly #172: No one is accusing Qadeer of incompetence. People are, correctly in my opnion, accusing him of self-promotion and being a traitor. The self-promotion is obvious. He is everywhere. And his name has become far bigge than the name of the whole team. And the traitorship is something he, himself, admitted to on TV.

When a person tries to become bigger than the team he is leading, he should be fired. That is my philosophy. There is no, ``I`` in team, as they say. Pakistan`s nuclear bomb was not a research project, in which only one person had the knowledge and skill. It wasn`t even a manufacturing project. It was more a project of intelligence and finding ways around the walls that had been constructed, thereby keeping nuclear technology to only first-world countries.

In it, Qadeer did his part by bringing in designs from Holland. He, then, lived in Pakistan and worked for the govt. For this, he deserves credit. But there are so many individuals involved in this project. There was a Pakistani who was caught trying to smuggle parts from US. He risked his life. There are so many scientists, who remain unknown till today, who ran all these nuclear facilities in Pakistan. There are soldiers who spent their days and nights gaurding these facilities. So on and so forth.

Qadeer was just one link. The program is still functioning, when he retired. Infact, he was forced to resign by this govt., because he had far overstayed his stay in that position.

I am quite sure that the govt. was involved in selling some of this technology. This includes the civilian and miiltary govt. I actually have nothing against it. The USA sells and gives its nuclear technology to Israel. This has been covered in detail in books. It sold it to France. And it has its missiles located in Europe. Why can`t Pakistan do the same to other govts? Infact, the NPT says that all countries, in good faith, will reduce and eliminate their nuclear stockpiles. However, every country is adding to it.

The problem I have is, that Qadeer Khan started making money off it, for himself. That makes him a traitor.

The nuclear program and the team that built it are important and are heroes. All Pakistanis (except those of the Hoodbhoy mentality) are rightfully proud of them. However, all that pride should not be placed on one man. If you are looking for heroes in the Nuclear team, you should look at the whole team. Or find a scientist who is important, but has relied on simplicity and a low profile.

The worst thing to do is to shower all your praises on the one person who sold out the team, after spending years hogging all the limelight...........in the process putting his country in a lot of difficulties also.........

Re: # 172

``Self-promotion equals incompetence`` is quite a convincing thesis.

By the way KRL is a separate entity from PAEC, under different ministries having different management and source of funding. Former falls into the Ministry of Finance whereas PAEC is under Ministery of Science of Technology. PAEC was recruiting base for Dr. Qadeer and that`s about it but KRL as a separate entity had a different mandate from that of PAEC headed by Dr. Munir.

Urstruly: Calling Urstruly. You made me do a lot of work writing that lengthy post #163 for you. Please do me a favor in return and never again refer to qadeer as if he is God`s gift to pakistan. I agree with Romair - the guy is first and foremost a self-promoter, and fools no one other than maulvis (and no one accused maulvis of having a brain).

bongdongs #167: Actually, Khushab was only the latest in a series of steps Pakistan had taken that developed its plutonium generating ability. Thus, the means to separate weapons-grade plutonium from the output of the karachi nuclear reactor was there as far back as 1981 by adding to the pinstech facility. Khushab merely expanded this capacity. While I have no special knowledge on these things, from general reading about this technology it seems the enriched uranium method is a more rapid method than plutonium,and that may well have been the reason qadeer managed to get his approach (enriched uranium) accepted. India, btw, chose the plutonium method, as i understand it.

No doubt south asia is a far more dangerous place today than it would have been if leaders (and the babus!!) on both sides had shown some sensitivity for the misery of the vast majority of their populations.

rsridhar #165 How democracy can come to Pakistan? I have no idea. The general has neutralized international pressure as well as the ``silent majority`` domestically by playing the ``mullah card``. i.e. as Louis XV said on his death bed, ``apres moi, le deluge`` i.e. after me, the storm (or mullahs in this case). In 1966, internal demonstrations forced Ayub off power and resulted in one the few free and fair elections after the 1950`s in Pakistan. I dont see that happening again - musharaff is too clever and makes sure the pot never reaches a boiling point by doing things he knows go well with the silent majority (free press, peace with india) and also the current economic growth rates also go in his favor. If you have any ideas, let me know.

#166 by Romair on March 27, 2005 6:58pm PT


Dr. Qadeer openly, on TV, admitted comprimising Pakistan`s most important possession and making money off it, for his own person.


So you think that confession was voluntary? I`ve got a dam on the chenab I`m willing to let got for 10$...10$ is a bargain price..considering you pakis are so anxious about it....

Ref Mullah32 #134

[..... the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Bajrang Dal, the ruling BJP, and the umbrella organization Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (National Volunteer Corps, RSS), all of whom collectively form the sangh parivar (or ``family`` of Hindu nationalist groups). These organizations, although different in many respects, have all promoted the argument that because Hindus constitute the majority of Indians, India should be a Hindu state. `` ]

Sheesh, I thought what Jinnah wanted, Pakistan for the Muslims and India (actually, Hindustan; he couldn`t bear the thought of calling it India, nor could ``Dawn``) for the Hindus.

Don`t tell me you are now going against Jinnah. What next? Will you be asking for the reunification of India and Pakistan?

#163

Good post. Essentially my reading is the same, except I would disagree on one point:

`` There are in fact two options to obtain weapons-grade material, namely uranium enrichment and use of plutonium. Pakistan already had the infrastructure for the latter.``

AQK was critical in building up fissile material. The only plutonium Pakistan has access to, is from the only un-safegaurded facility in Pakistan, the ``khushab`` reactor. Here is photo of it:http://www.isis-online.org/images/khushab/reactor.html

By all accounts Khushab went critical only in the late `90`s.

Urstruly #139: ``If Dr. Qadeer has taught us something it is that ``Everything is possible``. How long we are going to to remain stuck in this ``it can`t be done`` mindset.``

I think you are overly enamoured with Dr. Qadeer. No single person cannot do something for which you are giving credit to Dr. Qadeer. Infact, the most competent individuals are usually the ones that keep a low profile, and never claim credit.

Pakistan`s nuclear program is indeed a success. However, it is a success of an organization and its many members. If Dr. Qadeer has hogged all the spotlight than that shows he is not a team player. I had a neighbor who was a very senior scientist in Pakistan`s nuclear program. He was the most down to earth person and simple person I have ever met. No one in Pakistan knows the guys name, but who knows, maybe, he was more important than Qadeer. Saadgi is a great virtue in Islam and outside of Islam.........

Compare the demeanour and lifestyle of India`s Kalam and Abdul Qadeer........

Dr. Qadeer openly, on TV, admitted comprimising Pakistan`s most important possession and making money off it, for his own person. The possession had been developed by the hard work of so many people. Yet he sold it for his own benefits. In any other country, he would have been tried as a traitor.

Just because someone speaks the loudest and hogs the most spotlight, doesn`t mean he is actually as important as he says he is.

As for developing fighter airplanes, it is a very sophisticated process. Probably far more sophisticated than building nukes. For nukes, it is just difficult to acquire the material, since it is controlled internationally. The technology itself for nukes is 50 years old. However, fighter technology of 50 years ago is considered ancient. Just building a missile that an F-16 fires is beyond the capabilty of nearly every country in the world........

Pakistan is following exactly the correct path in its military aircraft development. Having seen it from the insdie, I can say with confidence, it is run quite efficiently. Pakistan, with the help of China, is doing exactly what it needs to do, and exactly what it can do within its own capacity.

It cannot build its own aircraft. Nor is there any need to waste its own money to build aircraft. It assembles them and puts them together and builds parts of them with China. And purchases certain main parts from abroad. It has done so on the Karakoram-8 and now on the JF-17.

This is the line Pakistan should keep concentrating on. It should rely on its nuclear deterent. It should jointly develop its miltiary aircraft with China and actully try to set them as an export industry, for the Middle East. It is trying to do that. It should even get private companies invovled in that. And it should purchase the more sophisticated parts, like the engine, missiles, avionics etc from abroad, and reverse engineer as much of that as possible.

However, reverse engineering a whole aircraft, with all its part, is something I have never heard of being done anywhere in the world. The Soviets are the only ones, who did it to some extent. If you know of any examples, do highlight them.........

So, no need to build the whole aircraft, unless the supporting industries of the whole country have developed to a certain point. Qadeer could not have done anything to help along those lines.

#153 by tahmed32
(...dont underestimate the ingenuity or practical sense of pakistani defense people or their dedication to ensuring the defense of Pakistan (despite their bad habit of ``helping`` civilians run the country when they feel like it): they could switch to mules instead of missiles, and place nukes all over India if necessary (that is EVEN if the miracle of a bullet stopping a bullet ever became reliabe technology).
What can i say? You are a funny guy. Perhaps, logic is not your forte.
(So, the only solution to this madness is peace. And peace means democratic states in both India and Pakistan. )
Agreed.
Peace is vital. People in India seem to want peace. Just finished watching the Zee Film awards held in London. Flags of Pak and India were shown together on the giant size screen. Incredible , i thought. Even 1 year ago, this was inconceivable.
If people are allowed to have their say, there will be peace.
India already has a democracy where people today want peace. How do you propose Pak have a true democracy?
Sridhar

bbabu #162

{{As a whole the LCA project was a reach for India. I do not know if it is the most optimum use of scare resources. But I would not call the project a complete failure. The subsystems and components built for the LCA find application in other imported combat aircraft.}}

I’ve followed the LCA project closely for the last half-dozen years via open source reports; I track the progress of flight testing on a weekly basis. I probably have a reasonable idea of the actual score … I think everything the LCA project has managed to date, starting from a low base and in the face of many obstacles, has been a tremendous achievement. The experience gained and the trained manpower built up will serve in very good stead in future projects. There are no short cuts in that business. One of the disparaging phrases in my post (LCA “stagger[ed] into the air with a foreign engine”) was lifted bodily from a ‘novel’ that a prolific Chowkie was writing a few years ago. My intent was purely sardonic.

{{Pakistan has handed over Chine a F-16 to replicate it. … The Chinese are still working on it. I am sure there are no Pakistani origin nationals working on F-16s who have access to steal the blueprints.}}

I know of those reports. I hinted at some of the key difficulties to Urstruly. You can’t easily build a functioning clone of a complex piece of hardware without access to the design documentation – you would need to know why some things were done the way they were, which apparently minor elements are performance-critical and which are not, what problems were encountered in the course of validating the design and what the fixes were, what the tolerances involved in fabricating various components are, their expected duty cycles, etc. Things get enormously complicated when some of the key function is incoporated in software that you can’t decode. In the past I’ve tried playing straight guy with Urstruly with little success – so I thought I’d try a different tack this time.

urstruly: I thought chowk was for relaxation, but now i am back on duty and see you want me to provide proof. damn. more work. but no problem.

First, lets be clear that you have stated your basis for supporting khan (i.e. that the US wants him, as i noted in #159). This certainly does not match the standard of facts, values and (to and a third) logic. After all, Pakistan already has the bomb (or a few scores of them by now) and the know-how etc. The cat is already out of the bag - so, if the US wants him, common sense would say it is for reasons other than preventing pakistan from becoming a nuclear power.

Second, having lived through the pakistan nuclear bomb project for the past 30 years, surely you must recall the timeline even if there are no AEC scientists around for you to question. Thus, if anyone is to be called the father of the pakistani nuclear bomb, it is ZAB (much as i despise his wadera politics) who made the famous UN speech in 1971 about pakistan never again being as helpless as it was back then. It was he, not Qadeer, who got the project started with his famous conference of pakistan nuclear scientists in January 1972 in Multan, and it was he who envisioned Pakistan`s nuclear defense that has proved so effective, and it was he who appointed AEC as project manager (under Dr. Munir Khan - who oversaw the project until the end). So, reason would dictate that if anyone is to claim to be the father of the pakistani nuclear bomb, it would be bhutto, not qadeer. But you wont hear a peep about this in Pakistan from the military (who after all hanged bhutto), nor will you hear a peep from qadeer who is happy to get the glory.

Third, so if qadeer was not the father, was he the project manager? The answer is no. It was Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission (headed by Dr. Munir Khan - who saw the project through the critical years until retirement in 1991. Qadeer was subcontracted outside of the AEC to do one key step (uranium enrichment). All other steps (and a scientist from AEC told me there are 18-19 steps involved) were outside his purview. So, that honor goes to the unsung heroes led by Munir (and including Pakistanis who risked their lives and freedom to get the necessary parts - including the famous case of one Pakistani who was tried and convicted in philadelphia for trying to take nuclear triggers, banned items, to Pakistan).

Fourth, so if qadeer was not the project manager, and in charge of one step only (uranium enrichment), was he essential to this step? The answer is a clear no. There are in fact two options to obtain weapons-grade material, namely uranium enrichment and use of plutonium. Pakistan already had the infrastructure for the latter.

I have to go now, although I could add additional points as well. but let me know first what you have to say of the above (which you clearly dont need to be have an AEC man tell you - since this is public information that you should be aware of if you have been reading newspapers past 30 years).

AlephNull #144

`` {{India has been trying for decades to manufacture its Light Combat Aircraft and can barely get it off the ground.}}

But Romair, don’t you see that you are comparing apples and oranges? The Indians stupidly tried to design, not just manufacture, their own fighter aircraft from scratch, so that they could master most or all of the relevant technologies, build up the in-house infrastructure and expertise, and thus be independent of armtwisting and price-gouging by foreigners. The design task was far beyond their limited competence. Little wonder the pathetic little LCA barely staggers into the air with a foreign engine. Foolish qualms over unlicensed production prevent Indians from simply cloning already proven designs. ``

As a whole the LCA project was a reach for India. I do not know if it is the most optimum use of scare resources. But I would not call the project a complete failure. The subsystems and components built for the LCA find application in other imported combat aircraft.

`` Urstruly has no such scruples. He proposes to make an exact xerox copy of an already tried-and-tested design (F-16) of which multiple copies exist in Pakistan’s possession. That’s surely a much easier task than designing an aircraft from scratch and validating the design in all its aspects. It’s right up Dr. Xerox Khan’s alley. It doesn’t need wind tunnels and other exotic equipment or an prolonged flight test program. In any case Pakistan already indigenously manufactures sophisticated high-tech weapons such as atomic bombs and missiles. Even the incompetent Indians manufacture Jaguars, for instance, under license, and will be manufacturing (not just assembling) the Su-30 MKI. Mere cloning of a 70’s era aircraft shouldn’t be such a big deal for Pakistan. ``

Pakistan has handed over Chine a F-16 to replicate it. I presume this was done a decade ago. The Chinese are still working on it. I am sure there are no Pakistani origin nationals working on F-16s who have access to steal the blueprints.