A Good Reason To Cheer

RG:
Very powerful. Mini-Arundhati Royesque. Please keep writing on similar social issues.
PRK

Kar de shesh,

I thought about your proposal for a long time.

I spent quite a while mulling over the deeply spiritual issue of hacking off the foreskin.

I weighed my options. On the one hand, eternal happiness, minus the foreskin. On the other, outright rejection at the gates of heaven.

It was a very tough decision.

But I think I’ll pass.

Regards,

Ajeya

Re: # 190,
Ajeya,
OK, because you insisted, I have forwarded your request to the fundo recruiters. Your physical is scheduled for next month. The headdress is a good idea. At least you will have plenty for bandages when you undergo a sunta (sic).

Re#189 by shesh kar de

”Seriously, I will add your name to the Hindutva list.”

NO! Really? Please don’t! You mean, I can’t make it to any of the million “good” fundamentalist lists in Pakiland?

“Thanks for popping up and being counted. “
Of course, that is the main purpose for my existence.

“Now, please go change your dhoti”
Should I change into something more sophisticated? Like a 10-yard cloth wrapped around my head?

Alrighty then....

Re: # 186
Ayeja,
bus sirf ayeja. Arey yaar kabhi kabhi Chalejaya karo. Seriously, I will add your name to the Hindutva list. Thanks for popping up and being counted. Now, please go change your dhoti - it does not match your Armani coat.

#187 by harish_hyd on March 29, 2005 0:28am PT

There`s a pattern there....When pakiland ditched the taliban, they said they`re doing it out of the goodness in their hearts....before Uncle Sam leaned on musharraf, A.Q. Khan was the ``father of the Islamic bomb``....now that they`ve had to debrief him(which is a nice term for virginia farm boys getting him down to his briefs), they`re saying he was just a clerk in the nuke prog....

#174 by Romair

[People are, correctly in my opnion, accusing him of self-promotion and being a traitor. The self-promotion is obvious. He is everywhere. And his name has become far bigge than the name of the whole team. And the traitorship is something he, himself, admitted to on TV.]

This argument would have been more convincing if Pakistan had acted before the US put a gun up its a$$. After all, no one in the world believes that Khan used PAF C-130s to transport centrifuges and other nuclear material without the PAF knowing the contents of the plane. The Paki Army knew it and was trading nuclear technology and material to make money because the Paki economy was in dire straits. Khan is merely the fall guy. It will be better if Pakis own up to the fact rather than propagate some half-a$$ed theories about Khan being a traitor and a self-promoter.

Re Kardesh #132

``Ajeya,
I set your dhoti on fire with the remark about Modi`s rectum. Sorry, pal, didn`t mean to offend you and your poster hero. I am just making a list of the more notorious BJP/RSS/VHP/BD/SP/JS right-wing foaming at the mout right-wing Hindutva types and you popped up. Sorry to have rattled your cage, no go back to your lathi routine.``

Actually you didn`t. The smoke you see is Mushu blowing smoke up your Sherwani. If it tickles, don`t get too excited. Mushu is never going to deliver on the real thing. So stop bending over for him.

re:#170 by tahmed32
Tahmed Sahib,
I have no idea how Pak could be a democracy. I wish i had. I have some thoughts on the subject though.
Democracy is something that people need to wish passionately. Once majority of Pakistanis wish it to happen passionately and believe in it, it will happen.
The big questions is: do the people want democracy? I have seen Pakistanis applaud the military regime many times in the past (one eg is during the coup when Nawaz Sharief was overthrown) and many seem to believe that only a central authority like the Army chief can do something good for Pak. Pakistanis in general seem to abhor their politicians and seem to think better of Army Commanders.
Is it then possible that Pak`s solution actually lies with Army rule? Why should we even believe democracy is the solution to Pakistan? If Musharraf is able to take your country on the path of progress, why should one even bother about democracy? These are the things Pakistanis must think and debate.
India as a democracy stagnated for decades under a socialistic system and has been developing fast only in the last decade or so. A communist China, OTOH, realized the importance of freemarket and has adapted a unique system of tight centalized control over the economy but liberalization of foreign investments about 10 years ahead of India and is on a much faster growth curve. Singapore has yet another model that has worked well for that country. What model would be good for Pak? This is what Pakistanis must debate.
There are some caveats to remember:
1. Whatever model is chosen, it should be chosen by free debate and should have majority agreeing to it.
2. The model must have a place for the Army in the power structure. In what form, that is for the people to decide. Pak Army will not give up power easily. If Army is left out, Pak would continue to see Coups unleashed by the Army.
3. Whatever model Pak adopts, it is vital that peace with India is ensured. This should be inherent in the model. For eg, if the model of governance gives trade with India lot of importance, then peace will follow. Peace will lead to prosperity for both countries.
These are some of my thoughts.
Sridhar

bongdongs: Hard to respond to your point given that it is so vaguely stated. I assume you are referring to the fact that qadeer was not the only one in pakistan involved in his wheelings dealings, then i agree with you.

As for the party line, the only party line i try to follow is the one i have set for myself: i.e. one that meets the tests of being factual, logical, and consistent with basic values of respect for human life, all faiths, and peace and prosperity in particular for the long-suffering poor people in south asia. if this sounds self-flattering, please remember that this is what i am prepared to have everything i write judged against. Being human, i dont claim to get an A plus against this benchmark everytime, but at least i try most of the time to keep these benchmarks in mind whether it is for myself or when considering something written by someone else. i dont expect to improve my real life situation by writing posts on chowk, nor do i think it matters one bit what the handful of people on chowk think.

anyway, i appreciate your well-written posts, and thank you for your friendly and civilized manner which i hope i have reciprocated.

#182
``And the mess he created in the process - trying to peddle his junk to every tom, dick and gaddafi who was able and willing to cough up the cash``

I (very humbly) suggest you look at the contents of the documentation that came out of Libya and then place them in the context of AQK role in the Pak nuclear program and then draw your conclusions.

I know the party line right now is to blame AQK, but the contents of the Liyan expose reveal the true story.

I shall desist from following up with any more posts on this, as we will then start treading down well-worn paths.

bongdongs: He probably did speed up things a bit - and certainly provided a broader base for pakistan`s nuclear program by providing this second option. But was he worth the trouble to Pakistan? I doubt it. And the mess he created in the process - trying to peddle his junk to every tom, dick and gaddafi who was able and willing to cough up the cash - is something that no one fully knows. But certainly a far cry from the near veneration given to him by the mullahs of pakistan (and as i said to urstruly, no one ever accused these mullahs of having a brain).

#180
`` he was not even critical to that one step in the process (obtaining weapons grade material)``
I totally agree he is not the ``father of the bomb``, but where I would beg to differ is that AQK is critically important for the fact that Pakistan had the bomb in the mid `80`s and not the mid `90`s.

bongdongs: hey what do i know? to borrow from mr. urstruly`s phrase, we are all mr. laloo panjoos shooting the breeze on chowk! :-)
what seems quite clear is that pakistan had the ability to go the plutonium route, and paec was pushing that as a more cost effective route to go and one where we had the infrastructure. so, far from being the father of the pakistani nuclear bomb, he was not even critical to that one step in the process (obtaining weapons grade material). that is the only point i was trying to make to convince mr. urstruly on.

PINSTECH has been experimenting with a reprocessing plant for extraction of plutonium from spent fuel from the late `70`s. It managed to import part of a French solvent extraction plant before the US interruped the process. In the `80`s there were reports of PINSTECH managing to get a pilot scale plant running and various tests being carried out. In the `90`s this plant was expanded (or a new one built) probably in anticipation of the Khusab reactor.

But, it begs the question where would the spent fuel going to come from in the `80`s? Before Khusab PAEC did not have access to an unsafegraded facility. Building Khusab and the related heavy water plant has been a great success for PAEC but this is only in the `90`s.

bongdongs: nothing i have said on chowk on this issue is based on private contacts - this is public information previously reported in various newspaper or journal articles. Thus, I didnt know pinstech had extended the facility to develop the ability to extract weapon`s grade plutonium back in 1981 - I looked up the date on the internet. Even today`s Dawn carries an article about pinstech being further extended in various civil and defense related research areas.

Harimau #168,
{``These organizations, although different in many respects, have all promoted the argument that because Hindus constitute the majority of Indians, India should be a Hindu state. ``}

They have the right to decide what they want to do. As long as it is done in a manner that does not involve mass murder, rapes, arson, and looting. When they do these horrible things, they and their benefactors, should be tried as criminals for their misdeeds. Those who support their behavior should be kept under close scrutiny.

#171
``the means to separate weapons-grade plutonium from the output of the karachi nuclear reactor was there as far back as 1981``

The KANUPP CANDU reactor is under IAEA safeguards so its highly unlikely that Pakistan could have extracted plutonium from the spent fuel from that reactor.

But, what the heck, sometimes truth can be stranger than fiction! Could you ask your contact once more if he really means they extracted plutonium from spent fuel from KANUPP :-)

How about ``doint things that are bound to get you caught equals incompetence`` then?
Or how about ``jeopardizing your country`s defense strategy for personal gain equals treachery``? Save your applause for people like Dr. Munir and the hundreds of brave and talented Pakistanis who worked quietly and without fanfare and at government pay scales to make their country safe.

I am aware that KRL is a separate entity (a profit making enterprise for qadeer, I may add). But that changes nothing. As I said in #163, qadeer was responsible for one step of a bigger process only. And the overall process was PAEC managed. I did not even mention the critical testing process. The preparation of test facilities and conduct of tests was with PAEC, and also totally out of qadeer`s hands - and a number of cold tests were done at chagai there prior to 1988. nevertheless, qadeer pushed himself into the limelight after chagai by holding a press conference - and the PAEC`s chagrin with qadeers shenanigans following chagai even hit pakistani newspapers of the time.

Urstruly #172: No one is accusing Qadeer of incompetence. People are, correctly in my opnion, accusing him of self-promotion and being a traitor. The self-promotion is obvious. He is everywhere. And his name has become far bigge than the name of the whole team. And the traitorship is something he, himself, admitted to on TV.

When a person tries to become bigger than the team he is leading, he should be fired. That is my philosophy. There is no, ``I`` in team, as they say. Pakistan`s nuclear bomb was not a research project, in which only one person had the knowledge and skill. It wasn`t even a manufacturing project. It was more a project of intelligence and finding ways around the walls that had been constructed, thereby keeping nuclear technology to only first-world countries.

In it, Qadeer did his part by bringing in designs from Holland. He, then, lived in Pakistan and worked for the govt. For this, he deserves credit. But there are so many individuals involved in this project. There was a Pakistani who was caught trying to smuggle parts from US. He risked his life. There are so many scientists, who remain unknown till today, who ran all these nuclear facilities in Pakistan. There are soldiers who spent their days and nights gaurding these facilities. So on and so forth.

Qadeer was just one link. The program is still functioning, when he retired. Infact, he was forced to resign by this govt., because he had far overstayed his stay in that position.

I am quite sure that the govt. was involved in selling some of this technology. This includes the civilian and miiltary govt. I actually have nothing against it. The USA sells and gives its nuclear technology to Israel. This has been covered in detail in books. It sold it to France. And it has its missiles located in Europe. Why can`t Pakistan do the same to other govts? Infact, the NPT says that all countries, in good faith, will reduce and eliminate their nuclear stockpiles. However, every country is adding to it.

The problem I have is, that Qadeer Khan started making money off it, for himself. That makes him a traitor.

The nuclear program and the team that built it are important and are heroes. All Pakistanis (except those of the Hoodbhoy mentality) are rightfully proud of them. However, all that pride should not be placed on one man. If you are looking for heroes in the Nuclear team, you should look at the whole team. Or find a scientist who is important, but has relied on simplicity and a low profile.

The worst thing to do is to shower all your praises on the one person who sold out the team, after spending years hogging all the limelight...........in the process putting his country in a lot of difficulties also.........

Re: # 172

``Self-promotion equals incompetence`` is quite a convincing thesis.

By the way KRL is a separate entity from PAEC, under different ministries having different management and source of funding. Former falls into the Ministry of Finance whereas PAEC is under Ministery of Science of Technology. PAEC was recruiting base for Dr. Qadeer and that`s about it but KRL as a separate entity had a different mandate from that of PAEC headed by Dr. Munir.

Urstruly: Calling Urstruly. You made me do a lot of work writing that lengthy post #163 for you. Please do me a favor in return and never again refer to qadeer as if he is God`s gift to pakistan. I agree with Romair - the guy is first and foremost a self-promoter, and fools no one other than maulvis (and no one accused maulvis of having a brain).

bongdongs #167: Actually, Khushab was only the latest in a series of steps Pakistan had taken that developed its plutonium generating ability. Thus, the means to separate weapons-grade plutonium from the output of the karachi nuclear reactor was there as far back as 1981 by adding to the pinstech facility. Khushab merely expanded this capacity. While I have no special knowledge on these things, from general reading about this technology it seems the enriched uranium method is a more rapid method than plutonium,and that may well have been the reason qadeer managed to get his approach (enriched uranium) accepted. India, btw, chose the plutonium method, as i understand it.

No doubt south asia is a far more dangerous place today than it would have been if leaders (and the babus!!) on both sides had shown some sensitivity for the misery of the vast majority of their populations.

rsridhar #165 How democracy can come to Pakistan? I have no idea. The general has neutralized international pressure as well as the ``silent majority`` domestically by playing the ``mullah card``. i.e. as Louis XV said on his death bed, ``apres moi, le deluge`` i.e. after me, the storm (or mullahs in this case). In 1966, internal demonstrations forced Ayub off power and resulted in one the few free and fair elections after the 1950`s in Pakistan. I dont see that happening again - musharaff is too clever and makes sure the pot never reaches a boiling point by doing things he knows go well with the silent majority (free press, peace with india) and also the current economic growth rates also go in his favor. If you have any ideas, let me know.

#166 by Romair on March 27, 2005 6:58pm PT


Dr. Qadeer openly, on TV, admitted comprimising Pakistan`s most important possession and making money off it, for his own person.


So you think that confession was voluntary? I`ve got a dam on the chenab I`m willing to let got for 10$...10$ is a bargain price..considering you pakis are so anxious about it....

Ref Mullah32 #134

[..... the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Bajrang Dal, the ruling BJP, and the umbrella organization Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (National Volunteer Corps, RSS), all of whom collectively form the sangh parivar (or ``family`` of Hindu nationalist groups). These organizations, although different in many respects, have all promoted the argument that because Hindus constitute the majority of Indians, India should be a Hindu state. `` ]

Sheesh, I thought what Jinnah wanted, Pakistan for the Muslims and India (actually, Hindustan; he couldn`t bear the thought of calling it India, nor could ``Dawn``) for the Hindus.

Don`t tell me you are now going against Jinnah. What next? Will you be asking for the reunification of India and Pakistan?

#163

Good post. Essentially my reading is the same, except I would disagree on one point:

`` There are in fact two options to obtain weapons-grade material, namely uranium enrichment and use of plutonium. Pakistan already had the infrastructure for the latter.``

AQK was critical in building up fissile material. The only plutonium Pakistan has access to, is from the only un-safegaurded facility in Pakistan, the ``khushab`` reactor. Here is photo of it:http://www.isis-online.org/images/khushab/reactor.html

By all accounts Khushab went critical only in the late `90`s.

Urstruly #139: ``If Dr. Qadeer has taught us something it is that ``Everything is possible``. How long we are going to to remain stuck in this ``it can`t be done`` mindset.``

I think you are overly enamoured with Dr. Qadeer. No single person cannot do something for which you are giving credit to Dr. Qadeer. Infact, the most competent individuals are usually the ones that keep a low profile, and never claim credit.

Pakistan`s nuclear program is indeed a success. However, it is a success of an organization and its many members. If Dr. Qadeer has hogged all the spotlight than that shows he is not a team player. I had a neighbor who was a very senior scientist in Pakistan`s nuclear program. He was the most down to earth person and simple person I have ever met. No one in Pakistan knows the guys name, but who knows, maybe, he was more important than Qadeer. Saadgi is a great virtue in Islam and outside of Islam.........

Compare the demeanour and lifestyle of India`s Kalam and Abdul Qadeer........

Dr. Qadeer openly, on TV, admitted comprimising Pakistan`s most important possession and making money off it, for his own person. The possession had been developed by the hard work of so many people. Yet he sold it for his own benefits. In any other country, he would have been tried as a traitor.

Just because someone speaks the loudest and hogs the most spotlight, doesn`t mean he is actually as important as he says he is.

As for developing fighter airplanes, it is a very sophisticated process. Probably far more sophisticated than building nukes. For nukes, it is just difficult to acquire the material, since it is controlled internationally. The technology itself for nukes is 50 years old. However, fighter technology of 50 years ago is considered ancient. Just building a missile that an F-16 fires is beyond the capabilty of nearly every country in the world........

Pakistan is following exactly the correct path in its military aircraft development. Having seen it from the insdie, I can say with confidence, it is run quite efficiently. Pakistan, with the help of China, is doing exactly what it needs to do, and exactly what it can do within its own capacity.

It cannot build its own aircraft. Nor is there any need to waste its own money to build aircraft. It assembles them and puts them together and builds parts of them with China. And purchases certain main parts from abroad. It has done so on the Karakoram-8 and now on the JF-17.

This is the line Pakistan should keep concentrating on. It should rely on its nuclear deterent. It should jointly develop its miltiary aircraft with China and actully try to set them as an export industry, for the Middle East. It is trying to do that. It should even get private companies invovled in that. And it should purchase the more sophisticated parts, like the engine, missiles, avionics etc from abroad, and reverse engineer as much of that as possible.

However, reverse engineering a whole aircraft, with all its part, is something I have never heard of being done anywhere in the world. The Soviets are the only ones, who did it to some extent. If you know of any examples, do highlight them.........

So, no need to build the whole aircraft, unless the supporting industries of the whole country have developed to a certain point. Qadeer could not have done anything to help along those lines.

#153 by tahmed32
(...dont underestimate the ingenuity or practical sense of pakistani defense people or their dedication to ensuring the defense of Pakistan (despite their bad habit of ``helping`` civilians run the country when they feel like it): they could switch to mules instead of missiles, and place nukes all over India if necessary (that is EVEN if the miracle of a bullet stopping a bullet ever became reliabe technology).
What can i say? You are a funny guy. Perhaps, logic is not your forte.
(So, the only solution to this madness is peace. And peace means democratic states in both India and Pakistan. )
Agreed.
Peace is vital. People in India seem to want peace. Just finished watching the Zee Film awards held in London. Flags of Pak and India were shown together on the giant size screen. Incredible , i thought. Even 1 year ago, this was inconceivable.
If people are allowed to have their say, there will be peace.
India already has a democracy where people today want peace. How do you propose Pak have a true democracy?
Sridhar

bbabu #162

{{As a whole the LCA project was a reach for India. I do not know if it is the most optimum use of scare resources. But I would not call the project a complete failure. The subsystems and components built for the LCA find application in other imported combat aircraft.}}

I’ve followed the LCA project closely for the last half-dozen years via open source reports; I track the progress of flight testing on a weekly basis. I probably have a reasonable idea of the actual score … I think everything the LCA project has managed to date, starting from a low base and in the face of many obstacles, has been a tremendous achievement. The experience gained and the trained manpower built up will serve in very good stead in future projects. There are no short cuts in that business. One of the disparaging phrases in my post (LCA “stagger[ed] into the air with a foreign engine”) was lifted bodily from a ‘novel’ that a prolific Chowkie was writing a few years ago. My intent was purely sardonic.

{{Pakistan has handed over Chine a F-16 to replicate it. … The Chinese are still working on it. I am sure there are no Pakistani origin nationals working on F-16s who have access to steal the blueprints.}}

I know of those reports. I hinted at some of the key difficulties to Urstruly. You can’t easily build a functioning clone of a complex piece of hardware without access to the design documentation – you would need to know why some things were done the way they were, which apparently minor elements are performance-critical and which are not, what problems were encountered in the course of validating the design and what the fixes were, what the tolerances involved in fabricating various components are, their expected duty cycles, etc. Things get enormously complicated when some of the key function is incoporated in software that you can’t decode. In the past I’ve tried playing straight guy with Urstruly with little success – so I thought I’d try a different tack this time.

urstruly: I thought chowk was for relaxation, but now i am back on duty and see you want me to provide proof. damn. more work. but no problem.

First, lets be clear that you have stated your basis for supporting khan (i.e. that the US wants him, as i noted in #159). This certainly does not match the standard of facts, values and (to and a third) logic. After all, Pakistan already has the bomb (or a few scores of them by now) and the know-how etc. The cat is already out of the bag - so, if the US wants him, common sense would say it is for reasons other than preventing pakistan from becoming a nuclear power.

Second, having lived through the pakistan nuclear bomb project for the past 30 years, surely you must recall the timeline even if there are no AEC scientists around for you to question. Thus, if anyone is to be called the father of the pakistani nuclear bomb, it is ZAB (much as i despise his wadera politics) who made the famous UN speech in 1971 about pakistan never again being as helpless as it was back then. It was he, not Qadeer, who got the project started with his famous conference of pakistan nuclear scientists in January 1972 in Multan, and it was he who envisioned Pakistan`s nuclear defense that has proved so effective, and it was he who appointed AEC as project manager (under Dr. Munir Khan - who oversaw the project until the end). So, reason would dictate that if anyone is to claim to be the father of the pakistani nuclear bomb, it would be bhutto, not qadeer. But you wont hear a peep about this in Pakistan from the military (who after all hanged bhutto), nor will you hear a peep from qadeer who is happy to get the glory.

Third, so if qadeer was not the father, was he the project manager? The answer is no. It was Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission (headed by Dr. Munir Khan - who saw the project through the critical years until retirement in 1991. Qadeer was subcontracted outside of the AEC to do one key step (uranium enrichment). All other steps (and a scientist from AEC told me there are 18-19 steps involved) were outside his purview. So, that honor goes to the unsung heroes led by Munir (and including Pakistanis who risked their lives and freedom to get the necessary parts - including the famous case of one Pakistani who was tried and convicted in philadelphia for trying to take nuclear triggers, banned items, to Pakistan).

Fourth, so if qadeer was not the project manager, and in charge of one step only (uranium enrichment), was he essential to this step? The answer is a clear no. There are in fact two options to obtain weapons-grade material, namely uranium enrichment and use of plutonium. Pakistan already had the infrastructure for the latter.

I have to go now, although I could add additional points as well. but let me know first what you have to say of the above (which you clearly dont need to be have an AEC man tell you - since this is public information that you should be aware of if you have been reading newspapers past 30 years).

AlephNull #144

`` {{India has been trying for decades to manufacture its Light Combat Aircraft and can barely get it off the ground.}}

But Romair, don’t you see that you are comparing apples and oranges? The Indians stupidly tried to design, not just manufacture, their own fighter aircraft from scratch, so that they could master most or all of the relevant technologies, build up the in-house infrastructure and expertise, and thus be independent of armtwisting and price-gouging by foreigners. The design task was far beyond their limited competence. Little wonder the pathetic little LCA barely staggers into the air with a foreign engine. Foolish qualms over unlicensed production prevent Indians from simply cloning already proven designs. ``

As a whole the LCA project was a reach for India. I do not know if it is the most optimum use of scare resources. But I would not call the project a complete failure. The subsystems and components built for the LCA find application in other imported combat aircraft.

`` Urstruly has no such scruples. He proposes to make an exact xerox copy of an already tried-and-tested design (F-16) of which multiple copies exist in Pakistan’s possession. That’s surely a much easier task than designing an aircraft from scratch and validating the design in all its aspects. It’s right up Dr. Xerox Khan’s alley. It doesn’t need wind tunnels and other exotic equipment or an prolonged flight test program. In any case Pakistan already indigenously manufactures sophisticated high-tech weapons such as atomic bombs and missiles. Even the incompetent Indians manufacture Jaguars, for instance, under license, and will be manufacturing (not just assembling) the Su-30 MKI. Mere cloning of a 70’s era aircraft shouldn’t be such a big deal for Pakistan. ``

Pakistan has handed over Chine a F-16 to replicate it. I presume this was done a decade ago. The Chinese are still working on it. I am sure there are no Pakistani origin nationals working on F-16s who have access to steal the blueprints.

US firm offers `exclusive` F-16s to India

March 27, 2005 14:49 IST


US aviation manufacturer Lockheed Martin has offered to build `exclusive` F-16 fighters for the Indian Air Force, much superior to any existing fighters in service in the world.

``If India`s requirements are beyond any existing fighters, we are prepared to make upgraded F-16s to India`s specifications with complete transfer of technology,`` Mike Kelly, Senior Executive of Lockheed Martin told PTI.

The comments assume importance in the wake of the US administration`s decision on Saturday to clear sales of F-16s to Pakistan and allow American firms to sell sophisticated weapons to India.

``We have in the past taken up the building of such exclusive fighters for the UAE [United Arab Emirates] and are prepared to manufacture F-16s to India`s special requirements,`` he said.

Lockheed Martin currently manufactures two versions of F-16s. While Block 50-52 is being supplied to the US and European air forces, the Block 60 has been developed exclusively for the United Arab Emirates.

``We are ready to develop new Block 70 for the IAF,`` the Lockheed Martin official said.

Besides Lockheed Martin, the US announcement on Saturday has cleared the ground for the other American aviation giant, Boeing, to bid for India`s plans to acquire 126 multi-role combat aircraft.

Boeing would face competition from Dassault, the makers of French Mirage fighters, Swedish Grippen and the Russians.

tahmad

and your accusations on Dr. Qadeer are somehow based on ``objective standard of facts and values`` right. I simply asked what proof do you have and you said go ask any scientist of PAEC. Is this your objective proof? give me a break.

So how am I supposed to approach the PAEC scientists, ``Excuse me Sir, My name is Mr. Lallu Panju and I am a blogger at Chowk dot com, could you please tell me that Dr. Qadeer did not make the bumm``

urstruly: one more thing - your last part about your fascination with qadeer explains a lot: ``To me matter is simple, if Dr. Qadeer has nothing to do with the development of Pakistan`s nuclear arsenal, as you claim, then why neo-colonial powers want his head on a platter``.

That is, if the US says the sun rises from the east, you assume it rises from the west. In other words, you are basing your views not on some objective standards of fact and values, but simply relative to the US position which you believe to be the embodiment of evil.

No wonder your remarks seem so far removed from common sense when it comes to politics.

A lot is said and claimed about Modi , but there is little understanding.

There are many who think Modi would be ashamed of post-Godhra riots. Infact Modi would have been a total nobody today if not for the post-Godhra riots. And he was a nobody before the Godhra incident.


Infact Modi wouldn`t have been re-elected as the chief minister of Gujarat and quite possibly the most popular politician in India today (hated by the minority , admired by the majority)....had he not allowed the hindus to vent their revenge on the muslims for their actions in Godhra. Nobody would even have heard of him. Nobody had heard of Modi before the Gujarat riots.

Modi was just a backroom administration guy from RSS who had never contested an election was given the chief minister`s post because of internal squabbles in the BJP between the 2 top and most powerful aspirants for the CM`s position in Gujarat - Keshubahi Patel and Suresh Mehta. Modi was seen as a compromise candidate as he was considered to be `insignificant` and with no mass base.

But after Gujarat riots , he won 2/3rd majority for his party in the state in what was his very first election. It was an equivalent of a batsman scoring a triple century and taking 10 wickets on test debut.

HP aka Hacked Penis....

As long as Indian courts do not convict Modi of any crime , as long as the electorate continues to vote for him , he will continue to be the chief minister of India`s richest state - a state which is economically more productive than the whole of Pakistan.

It doesn`t matter what foreign governments , NGOs , `human rights` activists etc. say or dont say. Even if Modi personally went and chopped the heads of a few muslims and raped their wives in front of a 1000 witnesses , he is innocent as long as the Indian courts deem him to be. He will continue to be the CM as long as the people of Gujarat - majority of them , want him to be.

I think the folks here missed the real reason why US finally agreed to deliver F-16s to Pakistan >> Because US wants India to buy F-16s and F-18s ..... which it will , out of compulsion to counter Pakistan`s purchase of F-16.

Indian government officials are idiots if they think delivery of F-16s TO Pakistan is an anti-India measure by US. It would have been anti-India if the delivery of F-16s to Pakstan wasn`t accompanied by an offer of the same and the more advanced F-18s to India...

US and the company that manufactures F-16s , F-18s - Lockheed Martin , just wanna make some $$$. Thats it.

urstruly: on Qadeer - I said you were ignorant of Qadeer`s doings, and recommended talking to any scientist of the Pakistan AEC to learn exactly what he contributed. So dont twist my words. The prophet also said something about the truth (I refer to the prophet since obviously what other men claim the prophet said is more important to you than the Quran).

On F-16`s: it is clear your knowledge of intellectual property rights is as dismal as your knowledge of this man you worship (qadeer). Go educate yourself, then talk to me.

tahmad

I did not ignore your post, I just didn`t know what to say; because your post lacks objectivity and truth and ladden with misfed propaganda. But there are two points that I would like to bring in;

1. We did not buy F-16 now. We bought those 21 years ago, and they are only being delivered now sans interest and penalty and that pisses me off immensely. That is the reason I say that we are under no obligation for intellectual property rights and we must replicate these planes in collaboration with Chinese or Russians.

2. Regarding Dr. Qadeer I would advise you to refrain from heresay unless you have an irrefutable case against him. Remember, the Holy Prohet (pbuh) said that slandering a fellow Muslim is like eating the flesh off of the carcass of your own dead brother. To me matter is simple, if Dr. Qadeer has nothing to do with the development of Pakistan`s nuclear arsenal, as you claim, then why neo-colonial powers want his head on a platter; shouldn`t they be asking for the heads for all those of PAEC who are ``really`` behind this as you claim. Please take off your colored glasses of prejudice and hatered of your own people and let them live.

rsridhar: I think for the time being it is clear we have a nuclear stalemate. Dont count on the patriot missiles though. Even the US has been having trouble with anti-missile technology, since that is like firing a bullet to intercept a bullet (as the example goes). So, just as Indians have been waiting for 50 years certain of the imminent collapse of Pakistan, they will be waiting a long time for the imminent neutralization of pakistani missile-nuke technology. And EVEN if this happened - dont underestimate the ingenuity or practical sense of pakistani defense people or their dedication to ensuring the defense of Pakistan (despite their bad habit of ``helping`` civilians run the country when they feel like it): they could switch to mules instead of missiles, and place nukes all over India if necessary (that is EVEN if the miracle of a bullet stopping a bullet ever became reliabe technology).

So, the only solution to this madness is peace. And peace means democratic states in both India and Pakistan.

urstruly: I will generously assume you skipped reading that post i addressed to what i wrote to you about dr. qadeer (and are not merely studiously avoiding it). I also assume that your continued fascination with aeronautical engineering caused you to skip the part i wrote about pakistan being already well equipped for external defense (missiles plus nukes) and F-16s being redundant. That is fine. In time, the truth comes out. Then you will remember my words and feel sorry that you ignored what I wrote while you still had time to reverse your decision to buy F-16`s (btw, the last part is a joke).

here is a little story in the meantime to provide some food for thought: In WWII the japanese built mighty battleships (Yamato I believe was the name of the biggest), and germans built what came to be known as pocket battleships and the royal navy of UK too had its own pride of battleships. In the US meanwhile, someone was using his head and argued that battleships were obsolete - they were sitting ducks for planes. So, the US focussed aircraft carriers. And lo and behold: the battleships (british, japanese, germans) spent the war either hiding from planes or getting sunk.

The same is happening today - the future is pilotless planes. Very convenient. And until they arrive, missiles will do fine. Planes are toys for pilot boys to have fun with. I know some pilot boys who I bet are even now savoring to go up in the sky afterburners blazing in these shiny new F-16s. But poor abdul haq`s son wont go to school because pilot boys are having fun.

Anyway, dont mind me. Carry on with your aeronautical engineering of the F-16.

arjun: you obviously have a reading impediment (in addition to your unfortunate tendancy to lapse into howls of ``pakiland, pakiland`` when you get excited). Re-read what I wrote about your giving fake links and selective googling.

Re: # 140 rs
//..``rejecting India at the altar`` of a new relationship, former Senator Larry Pressler has said...//

Pressler also said this : ``India is in a very subservient position with the US``. And that is the crux of the matter. 60 years gone down the drain and India, ``the great civilization``, is still subservient ..... it` still begging ..... and and it`s still looking for ``friends`` and ``camps`` to attached to. And getting ``rejected at the altar`` in the process.

And commies and fools still rule the roost.

Anybody posting with cr@p in urdu fonts should be spanked 20 times and banned for 7 days. Anything you want to say- say it in English, so that everybody can read it.

#147 by arjun_m on March 27, 2005 6:56am PT

dang...

how does a logic controller replace the embeded driver software?


that`s embeded software or drivers.....

#139 by Urstruly on March 27, 2005 5:31am PT


I am assuming that the customized software that you have mentioned in your post can now be replaced by Progammable lLogic Controllers-PLC. Commercial PLCs exist for the past 25 years or more and they have been standardized ever since. I do not see a big problem as far as control, sensor and mechanical interface is concerned. However, I do accept that avionics is something that we need time to work on and for that I suggested that we use borrowed equipment.


how does a logic controller replace the embeded driver software?

#134 by tahmed32 on March 27, 2005 3:50am PT

prophet tahmed(peace be unto your self righteous left butt cheek)....google is just a tool...It can`t find links for thinks that didn`t happen...

for e.g., If I searched google for a list of Paki army officers who were prosecuted for the genocide in Bangladesh or forcing the taliban down the throats of the afghans, I doubt I`d find anything....

If you are making a claim, it`s not very difficult to google up links that support you claim...assuming your claims are true to beging with...and that you have an IQ above room temperature....

#130 by HP on March 26, 2005 9:43pm PT

before you duel with AlephNull, shouldn`t you start with the basics...

Romair #133

{{India has been trying for decades to manufacture its Light Combat Aircraft and can barely get it off the ground.}}

But Romair, don’t you see that you are comparing apples and oranges? The Indians stupidly tried to design, not just manufacture, their own fighter aircraft from scratch, so that they could master most or all of the relevant technologies, build up the in-house infrastructure and expertise, and thus be independent of armtwisting and price-gouging by foreigners. The design task was far beyond their limited competence. Little wonder the pathetic little LCA barely staggers into the air with a foreign engine. Foolish qualms over unlicensed production prevent Indians from simply cloning already proven designs.

Urstruly has no such scruples. He proposes to make an exact xerox copy of an already tried-and-tested design (F-16) of which multiple copies exist in Pakistan’s possession. That’s surely a much easier task than designing an aircraft from scratch and validating the design in all its aspects. It’s right up Dr. Xerox Khan’s alley. It doesn’t need wind tunnels and other exotic equipment or an prolonged flight test program. In any case Pakistan already indigenously manufactures sophisticated high-tech weapons such as atomic bombs and missiles. Even the incompetent Indians manufacture Jaguars, for instance, under license, and will be manufacturing (not just assembling) the Su-30 MKI. Mere cloning of a 70’s era aircraft shouldn’t be such a big deal for Pakistan.

Faith and a ‘can-do’ attitude can move mountains – literally, as Dr Qadeer demonstrated at Chagai. Oh ye of little faith! Learn from the shining example of Dr. Qadeer, as Urstruly has.

“Ultimately , facts are that Modi has not been convicted by any court of law in India and is very much a democratically elected leader of the Indian people.”- Gujju

The fact is that no cases against the “parcharak” and “Jan Sanghi” have been allowed to go to the courts. The fact that Indian people regularly ELECT CRIMINALS does not reduce the crime.

Three years later, the survivors still await justice and reparations. Even as Muslims were the primary targets of violence in 2002, Christians were attacked and robbed during the post-Godhra riots. For those targeted, including dalits and adivasis, Narendra Modi, the architect of the state organised pogrom, is a monster whose words and deeds have endorsed rapes, the forced abortion of foetuses and their display on trishuls, brutalities that irrevocably scar the present. ,b>More than 2,000 of 4,000 cases filed by the victims were never investigated or dismissed, leading the Supreme Court of India to transfer several out of the state. On February 23, 2005, an Ahmedabad court sentenced three persons to four years imprisonment for stabbing to death Naseembibi Safar Ali, a pregnant woman, onFebruary 28, 2002, in Madhavpura, Ahmedabad. To find the male perpetrators guilty of murder and punish them with four-year sentences makes a mockery of justice and aligns the state, once again, with the sexualised violence that was Gujarat in 2002.
Modi is a pracharak (proselytiser) for the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), the xenophobic Hindu fundamentalist organisation, which, along with other Hindu extremist groups, receives funds from the US and UK.
What was worse, due to state complicity in all this, the victims had no way to get justice within the state of Gujarat. The Supreme Court had to intervene and transfer the cases out of the state and these cases are now going on in the state of Maharashtra. More than 3000 cases closed by the state police for `want of evidence` had to be reopened as per directive of the Supreme Court. The lower judiciary was totally communalised and higher judiciary in Gujarat is also partly contaminated with communal ideologies. What was more shocking was that the state appointed prosecutors were members of VHP. How on earth could these victims ever get any justice?
The Gujarat state government, led by Chief Minister Narandra Modi of the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), not only failed to take appropriate action to prevent the violence, but has since failed to properly investigate the crimes committed. It has consistently sought to impede successful prosecutions of those allegedly involved in the massacres, leading the Supreme Court and National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) to intervene on several occasions.
Activists and witnesses pursuing accountability continue to be targeted by influential extremists in Gujarat. The highest levels of government in Gujarat have created an extremely hostile environment. Chief Minister Modi has called human rights workers “five-star activists and pseudo-secularists” who are trying to tarnish the image of his state. This has encouraged a climate of impunity, where perpetrators of the riots and those that took part in the violence feel they can threaten activists and witnesses to discourage them from pursuing justice, without a response from state authorities.
The Gujarat police have initiated very few criminal investigations and have been largely non-responsive in cases where activists have lodged complaints about threats or attacks. No credible witness protection program has been established by the state government, which seems more interested in protecting those responsible for the violence than witnesses and victims.

The fact, however, is that after the riots, the state authorities in Gujarat have mounted a systematic assault on the rights and security of a segment of its citizens, on a scale and with an impunity that is unmatched in independent India, barring the dark months of the Emergency. Of the 4,252 cases registered after the carnage, 2,107 have already been closed on the grounds that there is not enough evidence even to submit a charge-sheet to the courts. In 36 cases, the courts have acquitted the accused. In no case have the accused been punished.

http://www.countercurrents.org/gujarat-mander231103.htm

re:#121 by Urstruly
Hey Urstruly,
Care to translate what that article says? To ignoramuses like me, it all looks like an ant crawling on the landscape. Urdu is a wonderful language but By Gosh, why is the script so screwed up?
Sridhar

re: post# 126 by tahmed
``If the intended purpose is to provide an effective deterrent to India, then they are not necessary - Pakistan already developed missiles that are far more effective vehicles for developing nuclear bombs and thus has the necessary deterrent.``
Well spoken.
What u say is correct. But then if India were to get Patriot (i doubt it will as the rleations with US just nosedived after the news of F16 sale), missiles will be nullified. F16 then remains the only viable option to deliver the nuclear weapons. So, i do not begrudge Pak the F16. My only contention is: today Pak seems to have a dictator who has the right frame of mind about mending fences with India. How it came about after Kargil is puzzle to me but i guess USA has a lot to do with it and we need to be grateful to that nation. But what after him? Would F16 then become another weapon to flaunt?
Giving F16 to Pak has ensured continued cooperation from Pak. Unfortunately this came at a time when Indo-US relationship was poised for a take off.
Sridhar

re: F16 sale to Pak: will it affect Indo-US relationship?
http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=419645
An interesting artilce.
Excerpts:
(The Bush administration`s decision to sell F-16 jets to Pakistan amounts to ``rejecting India at the altar`` of a new relationship, former Senator Larry Pressler has said.

``Yesterday (March 25 when President George W. Bush called Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to convey the F-16 decision) was a sad day, the day we lost India,`` Pressler told IANS in an interview. He is the Republican author of the Pressler Amendment which banned military assistance to Pakistan because of its nuclear programme.

``If I were the leader of India I would have no option but to seek an alliance with China for military reasons,`` Pressler said.).
Ominous last sentence? Or just rhetoric? Only time will tell.
Sridhar

Re: # 133 Romair

If Dr. Qadeer has taught us something it is that ``Everything is possible``. How long we are going to to remain stuck in this ``it can`t be done`` mindset.

First, and main thing is that Pakistan has the infrastructure to build aircraft and it is already doing it. We do not have to start from the scratch like KRL.

Second, we have expertise to assemble, manufacture, and engineer aircrafts and we are already doing it.

Third, a supplier base of freign and local suppliers already exist.

Fourth, what I suggested was the reverse-engineering of an already tried and tested aircraft and not to start R&D from aeronautics 1-0-1.

Personally, my experience is that of product development. I take over the work from blue prints and lead the product thru various feasibility stages, protototypes, validation, and production to the market. THerefore, I feel qualified to say that it can be done.


We usually, look down upon anything non-American as inferior and incompetent. It has more to do with our mindset rather than reality. For example, Russians have beaten Americans in every endeavor of space exploration (except that of landing on the moon) which rather was a pomp and show than an edge our Rusians. Yet we have a mindset that Russians make inferior products.

When I was in Pakistan I saw a Chinese forklift for the very first time. It was the ugliest piece of machinery that I had ever seen. Imagine a Pakistani Bedford truck sliced from behind the crew cabin and attached with two forks on that side. It was being powered by a diesel engine and its noise could scare children in one mile radius. While most of my collegue scoffed at it I was immensely humbled by it. Because it made the bold stataement that ``China can do it``.


Aleph null

I am assuming that the customized software that you have mentioned in your post can now be replaced by Progammable lLogic Controllers-PLC. Commercial PLCs exist for the past 25 years or more and they have been standardized ever since. I do not see a big problem as far as control, sensor and mechanical interface is concerned. However, I do accept that avionics is something that we need time to work on and for that I suggested that we use borrowed equipment.

For an attack to be premeditated , planned and systematically organised in advance by Modi and his henchmen in the RSS , as claimed by Human Rights Watch and other private NGOs , and some private citizens like Farzana Versey , one would require sixty volunteers , thirty five of them women and children , to agree to being burnt alive.

Also , questions remain as to the co-incidence of the 2000 odd muslim mob being present outside the coach at precisely about the time that it was on fire. And questions remain about how the doors of the coach remained locked from outside. Surely , the least that the 2000 odd muslim mob could do was to remove the locks in the door , if it wasn`t responsible for setting the coach on fire. Else , even if they did not set fire to the coach (a lot of the investigation pertains to the matter of whether the coach was set fire from inside or from outside) , they still stand guilty of mass murder by doing nothing and watching as the people in the coach were being consumed by fire.

Ultimately , facts are that Modi has not been convicted by any court of law in India and is very much a democratically elected leader of the Indian people.

People will have their opinion against him or for him. Many have annouced their judgement on him. Some for and others against.

Everybody has the right to their opinion. But the only opinion that counts is that of the Indian electorate. And the only judgement that counts is that of the Indian courts.

Foreign countries may or may not grant him a visa. But as long as Modi enjoys the support of the majority of those who vote in the election , he will continue to remain the chief minister of India`s richest and most productive state.

Human Rights Watch is just a private NGO and has no constitutional or legal bearing on India. Their opinion have the same validity as those of say hijra32 and hacked penis , the great cyber warrior eunuchs of Pakistan.

further to #134: Also note in particular the part from the excerpt which says that these Gujerat `` attacks on Muslims throughout the state were planned, well in advance of the Godhra incident, and organized with extensive police participation ``.

For years (and constantly on this board), Indian posters (and not just the certified lunatics like harimau) have been claiming that the attack on muslims was revenge for Godhra. The above piece (from the international Human Rights Watch) says it was planned well in advance - with police participation.

HP: I was just kidding urstruly a bit about his being in trouble now that mr. know-it-all of #128. You are absolutely right - this guy aleph null is of course a ``google expert`` on aeronautical engineering, just like he is a ``google expert`` on everything else (arjun wins the championship trophy as google expert though - he goes a step further by pretending to substantiate his half-assed anti-Pakistan bs through internet links that have nothing to do with his conclusions).

Coming back to topic of this article, you will see that these ``google experts`` somehow magically lose this talent when it comes to Modi. That is, you will see this board littered with posts harping on Modi not being found guilty and berating Revathy for insulting their fragile ``national pride`` by speaking the truth. So, I have decided to assist our esteemed neighbors to the east who lose their ``google-ability`` when it comes to Modi by doing the research for them. For example, here is a 70 page report (all you had to do was google and find out if you were interested) of the international Human Rights Watch titled (and the sub-title itself, which I have cut and pasted in the link below should tell you something) Human Rights Watch report: State Participation and Complicity in Communal Violence in Gujarat

Thank God there are people like Revathy in India as well as these ``google experts``. And thank God for international watchdog organizations like HRW (which no doubt the Modi monkeys on chowk will now claim is biased).

For the convenience of our ``google experts`` who make selective use of their talent, I have cut and paste below a is an excerpt from the summary of the above-mentioned report:

``The Gujarat government chose to characterize the violence as a ``spontaneous reaction`` to the incidents in Godhra. Human Rights Watch`s findings, and those of numerous Indian human rights and civil liberties organizations, and most of the Indian press indicate that the attacks on Muslims throughout the state were planned, well in advance of the Godhra incident, and organized with extensive police participation and in close cooperation with officials of the Bharatiya Janata Party (Indian People`s Party, BJP) state government.

The attacks on Muslims are part of a concerted campaign of Hindu nationalist organizations to promote and exploit communal tensions to further the BJP`s political rule-a movement that is supported at the local level by militant groups that operate with impunity and under the patronage of the state. The groups most directly responsible for violence against Muslims in Gujarat include the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Bajrang Dal, the ruling BJP, and the umbrella organization Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (National Volunteer Corps, RSS), all of whom collectively form the sangh parivar (or ``family`` of Hindu nationalist groups). These organizations, although different in many respects, have all promoted the argument that because Hindus constitute the majority of Indians, India should be a Hindu state. ``

Urstruly #125: There is no way Dr. Qadeer or anyone could have produced an aircraft in Pakistan, in five years. Once again, have you ever worked on an aircraft. Put one together. Seen how it is done. Are you aware of where Pakistan`s industry fits into this whole picture.

Manufacturing fighter aircraft is one of the most difficult things to do in the world. There are barely any countries, who successfull do it. USA, France, Sweden, UK, and Russia are about the only ones that can produce new generation aircraft (F-16, Mirage 2000s). And even Russia has now gotten into this league, after solving its metallurgical problems with turbines.

The main reason is that aircraft manufacturing requires a lot of industries in a country to be perfoming at a very high level. Materials, Electronics, software development, Aerospace itself, etc. Hardly any country has these industries. Even the Europeans are now building aircraft jointly.

Pakistan has none of these industries at any level to come even close to manufacturing an aircraft. India has been trying for decades to manufacture its Light Combat Aircraft and can barely get it off the ground.

The flight test procedures for aircraft alone take years to validate. Not to mention the fact that one needs a lot of university research. Twenty years ago, all of Pakistan had one Aeronautical Engineering program (run by PAF). And had one wind tunnel. I believe even today it just has one such program and the same wind tunnel.

Pakistan has taken the correct approach and it assembles aircraft. And rebuilds them. And does that very well. This is what the Chinese do also. Pakistani airplanes use Russian designs and engines. Chinese airframes. British radars. And American/French missiles and American electronics.

Pakistan manufactures only the Mushaak propellor trainer, under license from Sweden. And in that only the airframe is manufactured in Pakistan. The engine is imported from Avco Lycoming (owned by Textron, USA). And the electrical systems are imported from the USA, also.

One should not get carried away with Dr. Qadeer. He is not an aerospace engineer. And even if he were, the best thing he could do would be to design an aircraft on paper (which I have done also, as have so many other poeple in the Air Force). But unless he could overhaul the whole industry of Pakistan, from one end to the other. There isn`t much he could do in building an aircraft................

One should live in the real world...........when deciding what Pakistan and a specific Pakistani can do.............

Re: # 119
Ajeya,
I set your dhoti on fire with the remark about Modi`s rectum. Sorry, pal, didn`t mean to offend you and your poster hero. I am just making a list of the more notorious BJP/RSS/VHP/BD/SP/JS right-wing foaming at the mout right-wing Hindutva types and you popped up. Sorry to have rattled your cage, no go back to your lathi routine.

Re: # 128
You forgot the other essential components:
Stewardess
Peanuts
Seatbelts

#129 by tahmed32
Tahmed,
You are always nice to this dimwit #128. Any special reason?

This person has a long list of expertise based on google search engine. You get three or four sites, put some pieces together, paraphrase them and add some spice of hate and boom... There you have a-null or a-hole depending on what mood I am in.
If somebody were to make a list of his areas of expertise, Google would be at the top, middle and at the bottom of the list.

Urstruly: Now you are in trouble. One of our resident know-it-alls from India is here (#128 below). ha! ha! If you are not careful he will start smoldering in his own spite.

Urstruly #125

{{An aircraft is basically three systems:

1. Material
2. Mechanics
3. Controls}}

{{The production of light weight alloys is where Dr. Qadeer could have worked his wonders; in addition special high temperature metals used in turbine engines is also his line of expertise. For example, the centrifuges rotate at speeds exceeding 150K RPMS; keeping the integrity of an equipment at this speed and saving it from disintegration due to the friction of material being centrifuged is only possible when special metals are used in its production.}}

That is a brilliant suggestion – set Dr AQ Khan to work making single-crystal turbine blades. The great metallurgist should master them in no time. The rest of the engine, as well as the airframe are comparatively a matter of routine.

{{The toughest components of the three are 1. and 2.}}

I’m just a wee bit worried about the ‘controls’ (number 3, which you believe is not so tough). IIRC the F-16 is a fly-by-wire aircraft, and moreover is neutrally stable. It won’t fly too well without the proper control laws. Those laws are probably implemented in software, in EEPROMs somewhere in the flight control computer. Unless you can decode or replicate those control laws, your cloned aircraft may just fall out of the sky or may never be capable of full-scale combat manoeuvres. There may be several other vital components whose function is similarly implemented in software. Not a pleasant thought …

But perhaps this is merely my skeptical lack of faith. For the true believer all things are possible and no obstacle is too great – as Doctor Abdul Qadeer Khan’s own achievements prove. On balance you are correct – 5 years sounds about right to get a clone of the F-16 into the air, after which trivial details like radar and weapons systems can be worked out. Go for it.

Urstruly: As for Qadeer - I suggest you try to talk to any scientist from the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission (the project managers for the nuclear bomb project) and you will realize that you know nothing about him. And the more you know, the more this man stinks - who can be more napaak then him for jeopardizing the sacred task of the defense of Pakistan for purposes of personal gain??

urstruly: while i agree that it is a sad day for all right thinking pakistanis (imho of course), but not for the reasons provided by nazir naji whose article you paste in #121. That is, while F-16`s may not be the latest technology (as he complains about) but whether they are necessary for the intended purpose. If the intended purpose is to provide an effective deterrent to India, then they are not necessary - Pakistan already developed missiles that are far more effective vehicles for developing nuclear bombs and thus has the necessary deterrent.

The reason it is a sadder day than even you seem to realize is because today:

1. We are going for an overkill in external defense with F-16`s. And therefore wasting money.

2. While we have an overkill in extrernal kill, we have an underkill in internal defense - as illustrated by the Mukhtar Mai case, which should make every ghairat mand pakistani man hang his head in shame. Where are all these islamic radicals who bomb shias while they say their prayers in mosques, who take to the streets at any pretext against the US, but are nowhere to be seen when 5 men rape a woman and are told by the high court that they can go free due to lack of evidence?? What we need is more chhittars for the thugs like these rapists, who roam around our countryside, and not F-16s.

Re: # 123 Romair

An aircraft is basically three systems:

1. Material
2. Mechanics
3. Controls

The toughest components of the three are 1. and 2. The easiest part in reverse engineering is the mechanics. The hydralics, mechanics, and profile of wind surfaces are not hard to reproduce in reverse-engineering. The coordinate measuring machines can recreate parts and moulds at the click of buttons.

The materials are crucial because of the stresses and strains that a combat aircraft endures during its service. The production of light weight alloys is where Dr. Qadeer could have worked his wonders; in addition special high temperature metals used in turbine engines is also his line of expertise. For example, the centrifuges rotate at speeds exceeding 150K RPMS; keeping the integrity of an equipment at this speed and saving it from disintegration due to the friction of material being centrifuged is only possible when special metals are used in its production. Pakistan has good specialized plastic manufacturing capabilities that are used in military and aeronautical purposes. I do not feel comfortable in going into details beyond that are in public domain.

The third parts is the controls, navigation, and aids such as gyroscopes, radars and weapon system etc. which is the hardest part in my opinion. Here we could make some compromises initially and could use borrowed equipment from other make of aircrafts such as mirages and Chinese migs. But it is an evolutionary process. I know a guy personally who was suppling NaPakAF with circuit boards at $20 a piece from a samll workshop in his basement with 5 or 6 apprentices; whereas original equipment manufacturer would`ve charged $1600 for same circuit board. So it can be done.

Dr. Qadeer has an additional attribute which no other man in Pakistan has; he can organize and manage things in this `andhair nagri chopat raj` and most of all he can get the things done.

re:#113 by mohar11
I am sure u have heard the oft-repeated cliche: there are no permanent friends, only permanent interests.
If u have been reading the news, China and India are going to sign a Free Trade Agreement when Chinese Premier visits India. Already, the trade is worth more than 16 billion dollars. A free trade agreement will make this one of the biggest trading blocks. However, you are right in saying that China will not give up on its strategic friend Pakistan so easily but who knows what trade can do? Ten years from now, when the 2 way trade is 60 billion dollars, there will be no reason for China to antagonize India.
US is trying to leverage India against China as it thinks of China as its rival in future. Why would US then do something as stupid as arming a military dictator with offensive weapons like the F16, knowing fully well that dictators do not stay on the job for ever and are either overthrown in a coup or worse still, assasinated. My response in that post was out of frustration at what happened. It did not make sense to me.
I am however also reading some news that tells me US is taking its relation with India to a new level. One has to wait and see. It makes eminent sense for US to forge a new strategic relationship with India like the one it has with Turkey or Israel. If that happens in the long run, this sale of F16 would not really matter, would it?
Sridhar
P.S: My usage of the term China camp was inappropriate. There is no such camp. I just meant China.

Urstruly #: ``My guess is that had Dr. Qadeer put in charge of that project we would have produced a better aircraft at Kamra Aeronautical Complex in the first five years.``

This is an interesting statement. Just out of curiousity, are you familiar with how military aircraft are designed and built? And are you familiar with Kamra Aeronautical Complex, and what goes on there? I actually worked there for a while. It is no doubt an impressive set-up. But could you highlight how Dr. Qadeer could have produced an aircraft there in the first five years. Or even in the first twenty years? What exactly would he have done?

WHY NA-PAK FAUJ IS A CURSE UPON PAKISTAN

WHY F-16S ARE A CURSE NOT A BLESSING

#116 by Urstruly on March 26, 2005 11:38am PT


My guess is that had Dr. Qadeer put in charge of that project we would have produced a better aircraft at Kamra Aeronautical Complex in the first five years.


Hey...maybe A.Q. Khan can reverse engineer a xerox machine and make Pakiland a hub of manufacturing photocopying devices....we all know he`s very adept at using one, from his time in holland...

Re #118 by kardesh

Hey you jehadi backbencher,
Here’s an answer to your questions:

“What is the air time using F-16s from Mauripur AFB to Ahmedabad or Gandhinagar (whereever Modi hangs around)?”

MORE than the time using Su-30MKI from a number of indian air force bases to Islamabad. How many Su-30MKIs can fit in Musharraf’s rectum? We won’t waste a plane on him – just a broomhandle would suffice.

Here’s a comparison of F-16 vs Su-MKI (manufactured in India currently):

http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/comparison-f16-f18-su30-1.html

Incidentally, India has been offered the F-18 (never had to beg like you guys, of course), AND the offer for Licenced production. They are actually bidding for a contract for the purchase of 128 fighters. We MIGHT choose to buy it. ONLY IF WE WANT TO.

Hey all you aeronautical gurus,
I have a few important questions:

What is the air time using F-16s from Mauripur AFB to Ahmedabad or Gandhinagar (whereever Modi hangs around)?
How many F-16s can fit it Modi`s rectum? - Pain is not a concern.
Will the Congress government allow these overflights for a humanitarian mission?
Can we get Al-Kayda pilots for the ``soft`` landings? The PAF pilots just have to take off and then jettison themselves before the border.

revathy: very good piece.
amrita: makki di roti in aangan ?
urstruly # 102 : grow up.
masanamuthu # 104 : grow up.

tahmad

As a Pakistani I think it is a day of shame for us. I just posted my last pot to put a garam aalu on Hindus behind because otherwise there is no reason for us to gloat.

The fact of the matter is that Pakistan has no reason to celebrate F-16. This is approximately 30 year old technology and we should have reverse engineered this piece of shit by now as Americans reneged on their promises and eat our money. My guess is that had Dr. Qadeer put in charge of that project we would have produced a better aircraft at Kamra Aeronautical Complex in the first five years. But fauji haramzaday need their kick backs and only if they get some time from insulting pat