The Barbarians Within The Gates!

I think its clear that Pakistan must abandon the last 25 years of Islamisation and return to the original promises of Jinnah through constitutional reform. Now is the best chance to do it, with a military autocratic dictator who has the power to change the constitution at will. Unfortunately the chance that democracy will create a secular society in Pakistan is negligible due to the governments insistence on linking Nationalism with Islam through backward educational policies and the like.

Pakistanis must reconstruct their national identity outside of religion. Certainly there was a valid reason for Pakistan`s creation outside of a move towards Islam...the fear of being an oppressed minority.

All religious texts are by their very nature vague and subject to interpretation. Therefore the Quran cannot serve as a valid legal doctrine.

Unfortunately the secular liberals are not a majority in Pakistan, so a democracy will not create secularization. While having a dictator is unfortunate, I`d suggest that all influential Pakistanis take advantage of this golden opportunity to push for fundamental change. Since Mussharaf can keep control of the army he can maintain order during a transition to the civilian government and guarantee secularism a la Turkey.

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While everyone was trying to give their opinion about the art of being
called a muslim, I ran into science of becoming an Ahmadyya (aka
Quaidiani).

Now here is a simple guide to become a Qudiani. Maybe Ijtehad and reformation has occured because now descendants are incharge.

Not bad I say, could be easily adopted by muslims--without the benefit of conversion.


tahmed, what do you say. Would you not hug Sattar2?


Just for academic interest.

(drinking is conspicuously absent--loophole, loophole!)

conditions of baiat for quadianis

kaalchakra,

When you mentioned Ahmadi alliances in confrontation between non-Muslims and non-Ahmadi-Muslims … are you referring to actual events of the past, or is it more of a hypothetical question? I am somewhat unclear …

Islam implores people to side with the oppressed … regardless of their faith or affiliations. Furthermore, it defines very stringent criteria for fighting jihad. Owing to these teachings, Ahmadi-Muslim position on certain issues has deviated from that of mainstream Muslims.

One example is that of fighting jihad against the British before partition. Muslim scholars actively debated if conditions for this jihad, as prescribed by Islam, existed or not. Based on teachings of Islam, Ahmadi-Muslims saw no validity to this jihad. It is worth noting that the British granted Muslims religious freedom which Muslims did not have before. In some parts of Punjab the Sikh government would severely penalize Muslims for practicing their faith. This changed with the arrival of British.

Ahmadis pursued peaceful resolution to the sub-continent crises. They worked alongside the British and other Muslims in partition of sub-continent. Mullahs have exploited anti-British emotions to excite masses to violence against Ahmadis. Ahmadis have shunned violence and adopted peaceful resolutions of these conflicts. This seems to have worked in their favor … as they have survived, and globally spread, despite outright persecution and propaganda.

If you have more questions, hit me what you feel like …

tesah

Probably for different reasons. Hindus who hated Jinnah couldn`t figure out why a secular person would want to create a nation based on religion. Muslims who hated him did so because he was secular.

Re: # 51

The pre-Pakistan generation is still alive and they know how the `Mazhabie` (the religion-mongers), both hindu and muslims, hated Jinnah, the muslim league and the pakistan movement. They are still doing the same by fomenting sectarianism.

sattar2

I find Ahmedi Islam to be a very pleasant and respectable religious approach, but have some strong misgivings about the political affiliations and roles of Amedi Muslims in any confronatation between non Muslims and non Ahmedi Muslims.

I look forward to discussing this concern with you at a time of your convenience. Thanks.

Malikjahanzeb,

Agreed, one may rightfully argue that Islam is a sub-standard ideology. By the same token, human race itself is arguably a sub-standard species. It depends upon the context in which you view things.

As for Ahmadi version of Islam not having a chance … it is somewhat of a speculative comment (which does not necessarily make it incorrect). Islam itself did not stand a chance initially … but was able to deliver to a worldwide audience. European settlers that initially reached the Americas did not stand a chance either … they almost got wiped out a few times due to severe weather, droughts, and diseases. It is too soon to predict the future of Ahmadi Islam with reasonable certainty.

Dude, your ideas are working for you … but will not necessarily work for me. So I’ll stick with what makes sense to me …

Arjun,

My issue is about anyone who is unfairly targeted … even apostates, blasphemers, and whoever. Violence or fatwas are not the answer … they only add fuel to the fire.

You are probably referring to the sign on 680 freeway, close to Jacklin exit … yeah, I gather mullahs aren`t too happy about it ... another reason for their calls for jihad againt the big satan. I guess not everyone can be happy all the time … but we try …

tahmed (#254),

If you wanted to, you’d have known by now. After insisting that your posts weren’t addressed to sattar … you now want me to copy and paste your posts. You are being evasive ... and making excuses.

It seems that with microsoft shortcuts … and now google … every low IQ mullah feels entitled to acting like an enlightened scholar. May be you should stick with “worrying about the future of mankind”. And feel free to use google as needed.

I too have read Quran, and understood it differently than you. Somehow you feel entitled to issuing fatwas of kuffr against everyone who disagrees with you. Lose your only-I-got-it-right attitude man … before lecturing others on what god said and what he meant. And that’s the simple point ummah failes to understand.

Nazarhayatkhan

Allow us to separately acknowledge the series of your articles and postings in relation to Sanatana Dharma. A broad and free-flowing stream of water by its very nature defies easy description, but overall, you possess a better sense of its ebb and flow than often we ourselves do. Apparently we are so busy being `Hindus` that we ignore the real Dharma.

#255 by sattar2 on April 5, 2005 3:41pm PT

why are you all worked up....you live in the US, don`t you...you are free to call yourself muslim..

I`ve even seen stretches of some freeway in the bay area adopted by the ``Ahmedi muslim community``..i bet maulana urstruly pops a nerve everytime he passes such a sign...

re: Haroon Ellahi

Haroon, to answer your question, I have no personal definition of ``Muslim``. Consequently, I am willing to accept a person`s claim that they are Muslim and if they are lying, then it is upon Allah to judge them and it is not my right to judge if a person is a Muslim or is not a Muslim.

Ciao

Feroz

From what I can see- mullahcracy will always remain in a commanding position amongst Pakistani muslims since they prefer to talk theology while discussing polity!!!

sattar yaar,

why are you consistantly sticking to a substandard version of a substandard idealogy. why bother? can`t you see that it is not your intellect or your mind which puts you in an awkward and weak position, rather it is the weak philosophy you are trying to defend, just because you were born in an ahmadi family. the mere fact that Mirza sahib`s message couldn`t spread to wide-spread audiance and has no such chance, proves futility of such a movement.

I sinserely invite you to the truth, to abandonning of these frail myths, to an intellectually powerful position, to the world of moral courage and to tranquility. Once you drop the whole mess of such obsolete ideas, I can guarentee you that you will feel much much better.

mj

tahmed,

… in addition, the following further casts you as a rabid mullah …

Going by your definition (#191), one cannot rightfully deny that Ahmadis and Sufis and Shias and Wahabis … all are Muslims. You on the other hand have declared them non-Muslim at some point in time or another …

… you’d probably go back and qualify your definition of Muslim now … which simply proves silliness of this whole exercise … not to mention your meaningless obsession. Urstruly here has beaten you to the punch … see how long his definition is. You are merely trying to outdo him at sheer silliness. I hope you win. Or should I hope he remains the title holder … ?

sattar: You wrote three posts accusing me of berating your beliefs - I ask you politely to cut and paste what I wrote that you consider offensive, and you refuse to do that. If you had any manners, you would apologize to me for your false accusation that you are unable to substantiate.

I have therefore not wasted any more of my time reading the rest of your post. Have a good day.

Haroonellahi # 248

There is actually much truth in young people`s perception of Hinduism :(

You do see people worshipping rats, and doing even crazier things. We have loved to burn widows, although thankfully, we are coming out of that age. The caste system is still with us!

So if anyone claimed that Hinduism has nothing to do with any of this, I would say the person was being as dishonest as are the old people who are trying to turn Islam into Hinduism, by claiming that Islam has no requirements. If Islam can become Hinduism with just a name change, I would have no problem supporting Islam!

The definition and defintional approach of Hinduism cannot be applied to Islam because the entire philosphical and moral bases of the two are completely different. One has to make a choice here. It`s not like you can sleep in the day time and claim it is dark night for the whole world! :)

Religions have their specific strengths and weaknesses. One has to make an individual decision about which ones he or she can live with.

My support to Hinduism comes after looking at all its huge weaknesses, huge strengths, and deciding that overall, this is the way for me. Note: there are other religions that I think are better for other people depending upon how and how deeply they think. So there is no one shoe fits all approach in talking about God.

Hinduism is traditionally defined the way you see many latest and progressive Muslims trying to define Islam now. But I will show why those definitions make complete sense for Hinduism and none at all for Islam.