Wapsi (The Returning)

How to buy DVD of `WAAPSI`` in India?

From Richard Grenier`s famous essay in Commentary the American Jewish Committee Magazine...

http://eserver.org/history/ghandi-nobody-knows.txt

Skeptics might also not be surprised to learn that as independence approached, Gandhi`s inner voice began to change its tune. It has been reported that Gandhi ``half-welcomed`` the civil war that broke out in the last days. Even a fratricidal ``bloodbath`` (Gandhi`s word) would be preferable to the British.

And suddenly Gandhi began endorsing violence left, right, and center. During the fearsome rioting in Calcutta he gave his approval to men ``using violence in a moral cause.``


There is other stuff in this article that makes even more disturbing reading...

Re: # 295

Still sticking to your old line of argument i.e. lies

Good for you.

#290 by MaheshG2

[Is that all you have to say about the murder of an innocent man?]

Man, the guy is a total fake. As long as you don`t contest his arguments, he will go on and on forever. The moment you produce some evidence like I did with his hero, the man resorts to blabbering incoherently.

#288 by Yasser

[I`ve already answered this question as well in the post above. Please refer to it...]

Where? Or are you speaking thru your hat?

Re: # 286
Just a small correction.Patiala was never a muslim majority state.The only muslim majority area in east Punjab was a small nawabi state of Maler Kotla.Though Maler Kotla was surrounded from all sides by hindu/sikh majority areas but there was not a single attack on it and there was no migration from that town.The reason was the protest registered by the erstwhile nawab of Maler Kotla,Sher Khan, against the killing of younger sons of Guru Gobind Singh Ji by the nawab of Sirhind in early part of seventeenth century.
Maler Kotla still is a muslim majority town.
I dont mean to say that there were no killings in other parts of Punjab.Fanatics on both sides were competing with each other at that time,like who sends most dead bodies in the trains to the other side.

Re: # 286
Just a small correction.Patiala was never a muslim majority state.The only muslim majority area in east Punjab was a small nawabi state of Maler Kotla.Though Maler Kotla was surrounded from all sides by hindu/sikh majority areas but there was not a single attack on it and there was no migration from that town.The reason was the protest registered by the erstwhile nawab of Maler Kotla,Sher Khan, against the killing of younger sons of Guru Gobind Singh Ji by the nawab of Sirhind in early part of seventeenth century.
Maler Kotla still is a muslim majority town.
I dont mean to say that there were no killings in other parts of Punjab.Fanatics on both sides were competing with each other at that time,like who sends most dead bodies in the trains to the other side.

Re: # 290

No sir... but I`ll have my say where it matters, and not to prove my ``humanity`` to total strangers ...

Manto #287,

Is that all you have to say about the murder of an innocent man?

if you are shocked by the fact that only 1 million out of 6 million remained in W. Punjab and Sindh, why aren`t you shocked by the fact that almost no Muslims remain in E. Punjab out of a population of much more than 6 million. Jullundur, Amritsar, Patiala, Ludhiana, Ferozepore, Pathankot, Gurdaspur, Ambala, and Panipat all had significant Muslim populations. That is what happened in 47 in Punjab - ethnic cleansing on both sides.

Sure, I am shocked.

I will even admit that more Muslims moved to Pakistan than did Hindus and Sikhs to India.

But the fact remains that after the population exchange minorities became an insignifcant part of the population in Pakistan. That is the main point.

As far as your contention that Gujarat type riots would take place in Pakistan if only the victims were present, you are dead wrong. The jihadis, mullahs, and fanatics, as despicable as they are, do not care about killing the minorities` men, women, and children. In fact, they may be more interested in establishing an ``Islamic State`` that ``saves`` these infidels from hell, by trying to convert them. Most of all they are more interested in eliminating those ``liberal`` Muslims who stand in their way of imposing an ``Islamic`` state. Individual fanatics may blow themselves up and kill some non-Muslims, but they have been targeting other Muslims in Pakistan mainly.

Kardesh, I am afraid you have totally lost it here.

You are talking as if Mullahs and Jehadis do not kill infidels. Jehadis have been killing infidels in droves from time immemorial.

And how are they going to convert the minorities if they refuse to be converted? How else are they going to accomplish it without violence? Why would minorities convert if they are not afraid for their lives and livelihood?

Unlike the Hinduva-inspired RSS/BJP/VHP/SP/BD/JS fanatics, the jihadists are not out for revenge for perceived atrocities from the 8th and 10th through 19th centuries. They are not trying to rape Hindu and Sikh women so that they can be happy that the sins of Ghaznavi, Ghori, and Babur have been repaid. Come on, MaheshG2, see the difference. Jihadists believe in violence for ``independence`` from infidels, including Muslim liberals and imposition of ``Islamic`` rule and are even willing to commit suicide to accomplish these goals. Hindutva fanatics want to extract revenge for past humiliations and are willing to commit violence only if their own lives are not in danger. This was the case in Gujarat, Bombay and most other riots where the RSS types were ``victorious.``

Jihadis resort to violence to get their way (one does not need RSS type reasons to kill people). They just don`t have Hindu/Sikh victims to target in Pakistan. Hence, they make their way to Kashmir and do it there or simply target liberal Muslims.

Kardesh, it`s comical to see you assert that Jehadis and mullahs will blow themselves up and eliminate liberal muslims who stand in their way but will not blow up minorities who stand in their way.

You have to admit you sound completely ridiculous here.

Re: # 283

``If that is the case, why don`t you cut and paste the reply?``

I`ve already answered this question as well in the post above. Please refer to it...

Re: # 284

What humanity... displaying pleasure on the murder of an innocent man...

Re: # 285

MahesG2,
I think your numbers make sense. Yes, 5 million or more Hindus and Sikhs left West Punjab to go to East Punjab - especially in 1947-48. I have been trying to tell you that. Yes, you can call it ethnic cleansing. But it is also a fact that many more millions, possibly 8 to 10 million Muslims came to Pakistan from East Punjab, Delhi, UP, Rajasthan, and Gujarat.
After 1947-48, there were hardly any Muslims left in East Punjab. Patiala, I have been told was a Muslim majority princely state, where many of the inhabitants were systematically killed by the maharaja`s forces. I heard similar situation happened in kapurthala. Amritsar district, also having a huge, if not a majority Muslim population, was totally cleansed. So ethnic cleansing occurred in both halves of Punjab. The point is that after this 47 madness, no Gujarat type riots took place in West Pakistan to this day.
If you are shocked by the fact that only 1 million out of 6 million remained in W. Punjab and Sindh, why aren`t you shocked by the fact that almost no Muslims remain in E. Punjab out of a population of much more than 6 million. Jullundur, Amritsar, Patiala, Ludhiana, Ferozepore, Pathankot, Gurdaspur, Ambala, and Panipat all had significant Muslim populations. That is what happened in 47 in Punjab - ethnic cleansing on both sides.

As far as your contention that Gujarat type riots would take place in Pakistan if only the victims were present, you are dead wrong. The jihadis, mullahs, and fanatics, as despicable as they are, do not care about killing the minorities` men, women, and children. In fact, they may be more interested in establishing an ``Islamic State`` that ``saves`` these infidels from hell, by trying to convert them. Most of all they are more interested in eliminating those ``liberal`` Muslims who stand in their way of imposing an ``Islamic`` state. Individual fanatics may blow themselves up and kill some non-Muslims, but they have been targeting other Muslims in Pakistan mainly.

Unlike the Hinduva-inspired RSS/BJP/VHP/SP/BD/JS fanatics, the jihadists are not out for revenge for perceived atrocities from the 8th and 10th through 19th centuries. They are not trying to rape Hindu and Sikh women so that they can be happy that the sins of Ghaznavi, Ghori, and Babur have been repaid. Come on, MaheshG2, see the difference. Jihadists believe in violence for ``independence`` from infidels, including Muslim liberals and imposition of ``Islamic`` rule and are even willing to commit suicide to accomplish these goals. Hindutva fanatics want to extract revenge for past humiliations and are willing to commit violence only if their own lives are not in danger. This was the case in Gujarat, Bombay and most other riots where the RSS types were ``victorious.``

Don`t forget the the influx of Muslims from Punjab, Delhi, UP, Gujarat, Rajasthan, and Bombay was huge in the period from 1947 through 1950 - when the doors to Pakistan were closed. To say that over 5-6 million people came to West Pakistan and approximately 5 million left West Pakistan would not be an exaggeration. Hopefully, someone with more exact and accurate numbers can enlighten us. Yes, I understand from reading books that approximately 1-2 million people perished (nice word for slaughtered) during partition - primarily in Punjab, some in Delhi, and many in Bihar and Bengal.

So, if millions of Hindus and Sikhs left and millions of Muslims arrived, is it any wonder that a population that may have been in double digit percentages has shrunk to low single digits? I think the math will support this - because this is the truth. I am not aware of mass conversions or slaughter taking place after 1948.

The article I posted from Dawn took the influx and outflux both into account. If you can check out that article for the exact numbers. My contention is that even taking both into account the minority population came down by more than a whopping 80% (6 million before partition, 1 million after).

If you want to do the actual math, I can help you.

Pakistan population before partition 32 million (1941). Number of minorities in Pakistan 6.4 million (20% of 32 million).

Pakistan population after partition 39 million (1951). Number of minorities in Pakistan 1.3 million (3.2% of 39 million).

Therefore, 5.1 million people out of 6.4 million were either driven out, massacred or converted. Let`s say they were not even driven out they simply left.

5.1 million is 80% of 6.4 million. Therefore, minority population came down by 80%. That by any definition of the term is ETHNIC CLEANSING!!!!

Pakistan, as a government, did not wipe out its minorities, neither did the GOI. Most Hindus and Sikhs left Pakistan, especially Punjab, due to the danger to their lives in 47 and the fact that they did not want to live in an Islamic state. The deliberate desire of Sikh leaders to reconvene a solid majority in East Punjab, along with the mass killings of Muslims in East Punjab, especially Patiala, Amritsar, and Kapurthala, helped to facilitate this huge migration.

You seem to be hung up on semantics. Will you find it more acceptable if I said Pakistan got rid of its minorities. Even if no mass slaughter or conversion took place after 1948, there was a population exchange over a period of 4 years. Both you and HP seem to be hung up no massacres after 1948. Let me grant you that because that is not even my main point.

The point is whatever happened, even if you guys just want to admit to just population transfer, no massacres, no conversions, you CAN NOT get away from the fact that there was complete ethnic cleansing in West Pakistan (80% of minority population being thrown out is no joke!!).

To claim no gujarats took place in Pakistan after 1947-51 is simply ridiculous.

Maybe if Bin Laden, or Mullah Omar were the CMs of Punjab and Sindh, we could still have such a horrible thing happen in Pakistan - but I think that Pakistanis are not inclined to killing men, women, and children en masse. Most Indians are also not inclined to engage in mass slaughter. You need an organizations, e.g. Siv Sena/RSS/BJP/JS/SP/BD type activists, propaganda, slogans, newspapers that support that type of ideology, a state infrastructure, and a weak central government, willing to let that happen.

Oh, come on. Kardesh, Pakistan has Bin Laden and Mullah Omar`s as CMs all over the place. There is an Islamic minority in Pakistan that will easily kill men, rape women and they have the state sanction. The only thing lacking is the presence of potential victims.

Are you really telling me that if there was a significant minority presence like in India there would be no riots like Gujarat in Pakistan? Especially, considering the following facts:

1) There is a huge Jehadi culture in Pakistan.
2) Children are officially taught in schools that Hindus are the bad guys.
3) Hindus/Christians/Sikhs have been relegated to second class status in Pakistan when Pakistan officially became an Islamic republic.
4) Even without a significant presence of Hindus/Sikhs Pakistanis still end up killing each other.

HP, can you also answer this post?

#282 by Yasser

[Furthermore your lame comebacks, personal abuse and insults have made it abundantly clear that you have no argument and are motivated by the run of the mill bigotry that is indicative of the culture you are the product of.]

Paki culture is superior? Yeah sure. Here is an example of Paki ``culture``.

Man `declared infidel` killed by mob

Excerpts:

``The sources quoted witnesses as saying that Ashiq had begged for his life and while trying to escape he managed to climb a tree. But the mob chased him and someone shot him. Ashiq`s family refused to accept his body saying he was an infidel.``

``The local cleric had issued an edict declaring Ashiq an infidel and announced death as punishment, the SP said.``

One of these days, they are going to get you too, because not only are you an Ahmadi, you put Pakistan ahead of the Kalima. So watch out bud!

#282 by Mantolives

[I have answered your question in detail several times on several boards including the Stuka Board.]

If that is the case, why don`t you cut and paste the reply?

[If you feel you won the argument then like I have been saying over the last 5 weeks ... be happy and secure in your knowledge.]

Is that another way of admitting that you have been caught with your pants down?

[I have maintained my dignity and honor in face of your abuse.]

The funniest statement on Chowk in a while. You called me liar, blind, bigot, and then claim to have maintained dignity and honor? If you are dignified, I`m happy being not.

Another post goes waste without an answer. But its okay. I was never expecting an answer. It was fun getting you riled up though.