Shatranj ke Khiladi

#277 by HisExcellency on April 21, 2005 9:54am PT


Nobody is expecting a land transfer at this stage.


And you shouldn`t expect that from India....at any stage..


It is this intransigence that I am talking about. Given that Pakistan and Kashmiris have already petered down their maximalist positions, there is no reason for India to be hard-nosed about modalities and preliminaries.


Like I said before, India giving up it`s demand for Pakistani Kashmir IS flexibility...no redrawing of borders includes no transfer of land from Pakistan to Kashmir..

Whether you think that`s inflexible or intransigent doesn`t really matter...


All such ideas work fine if we consider Kashmir as a bilateral problem (which it is not).


Whether India considers Kashmir a bilateral problem is for the people of India to decide..


There are 3 parties to the dispute.


Again...that`s the way you see things...but the way India seens things, the kashmiris are party to the dispute but there`s still no way India is giving up this land..

It is this intransigence that I am talking about. Given that Pakistan and Kashmiris have already petered down their maximalist positions, there is no reason for India to be hard-nosed about modalities and preliminaries.

If you go to your neighbour`s and claim his TV as yours and after years you peter down your claim to only the antenna you dare to call it flexibility?

Should you neighbour hand over his antenna to you because you have climbed down from your earlier position of claiming his TV in its entirity?

re: jay

Whether the travel document is issued by UN or India is really not the point. The point is that it`s not an Indian passport. All Indian citizens require a passport when they leave the country. But this is not a requirement for Kashmiris traveling from IOK to Azad Kashmir or Pakistan. Effectively Indian govt has classified Kashmiris as semi-Indian or non-Indian citizens (depending on how you look at it). This is a step in the right direction, but still more needs to be done to accomodate the overwhelming Kashmiri desire for self-determination.

re: vivek

Nobody is expecting a land transfer at this stage. We are only expecting India to let Kashmiris leadership meet their counterparts in Azad Kashmir and Pakistan. Alas, even a simple little prerequisite to peace process is not being met. Leaders of the Hurriyat Conference are even prepared to travel abroad on Indian passports, but the Govt of India has not issued passports to several important members of the APHC. Govt of India isn`t even prepared to accept that J&K is a disputed territory.

It is this intransigence that I am talking about. Given that Pakistan and Kashmiris have already petered down their maximalist positions, there is no reason for India to be hard-nosed about modalities and preliminaries. It is this attitude that sends the wrong kind of signals to smaller neighbors of India such as Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka and Pakistan. As individuals, Indians behave quite reasonably with other South Asians. But the Indian govt has this ``dictatorial`` attitude towards its neighbors.

This attitude of Indian govt shall turn the Big Game into a ``No Game``!

re: arjun_m

The fanfare in India was organized by the govt, not the people of J&K. And there were political reasons for this fanfare. Indian govt wanted to paint this as an official sendoff from India to Pakistan. That is why the Indian PM and J&K CM were there at the ceremony. However, Pakistan does not see this as a bus traveling from India to Pakistan. This is a bus traveling from one part of Kashmir state to another part of the same state. This is exactly why no Pakistani official was present at the receiving ceremony. Only the Azad Kashmir administration led by its PM Sikandar Hayat Khan was present. If you notice the uniforms of the police officers at the ceremony, even they were wearing Azad Kashmir police colors. Not the regular black/khaki uniforms worn by Pakistani police officers.

re: rsridhar

The Nation op-ed is certainly one of the strands of thought in Pakistani think tanks. Whether it hits the bulls eye or misses it completely, is something that the people of Kashmir have to decide. All such ideas work fine if we consider Kashmir as a bilateral problem (which it is not). There are 3 parties to the dispute. Let the leadership of all 3 parties meet without travel restrictions. At this point, India is prepared to facilitate people-to-people contact in Kashmir but not leadership-to-leadership contact. India wants to decide which leaders are allowed to travel and which are not. This is counterproductive.

Re: # 277

``Whether the travel document is issued by UN or India is really not the point. The point is that it`s not an Indian passport. All Indian citizens require a passport when they leave the country. But this is not a requirement for Kashmiris traveling from IOK to Azad Kashmir or Pakistan. ``

I think the NDA Government was more interested in having a passport so that no tom-dick-harry from pakistan can come to india and diappear. Passport is more authentic than a single sheet of paper. After the chandigarh test, some 40 pakis didn`t return, the BJP then held a conference emphasizing that UPA should hold to the passport demand.

Re: # 277 HisEx
//.....It is this intransigence that I am talking about. ..//

Yeah well - India doesn`t care. What are you going to do? Start jihad? You have tried that already. Nothing happened...... Look - you have played the game and you have lost. Only thing you can do now is accept defeat gracefully and slinker away.

There is no point whining and chest-beating - you look pathetic when you do that. ``Alas, even a simple little prerequisite to peace process is not being met`` - stop begging like this. If and when we think anyhting is a ``prerequisite``, we would do it. So quit whining.

What a l00ser.

What part of no redrawing of borders isn`t clear...

Threat to peace process not eliminated: Singh


NEW DELHI: Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said on Wednesday that the threat to the peace process had not been eliminated and asked Pakistan to implement its assurances in letter and spirit.

Making a statement to both houses of parliament on President Pervez Musharraf’s recently concluded visit, Singh said he was satisfied with the progress achieved in talks. “I mentioned to President Musharraf that the whole process of serious and sustained dialogue hinges on building an atmosphere of trust and confidence, free from violence and terror. We look forward to Pakistan implementing their assurances in letter and spirit,” Singh said.

He asserted that the redrawing of boundaries was not possible and both countries had agreed to pursue further measures to enhance interaction across the Line of Control. “The threat to the peace process from extremists and militant organisations has not been eliminated,” he said.

Referring to the joint statement made on Monday, the Indian prime minister said the reaffirmation of the commitments made in the joint statements of Islamabad and New York last year addressed “our concerns relating to terrorism from across the border”. He said “the Kashmir issue has bedevilled relations between India and Pakistan for too long to hope for an immediate resolution”.

Emphasising that the redrawing of boundaries was not possible, he said India was committed to take all measures that could bring the people of both sides together, including transportation and trade across the border and the Line of Control. “Both of us agreed to continue discussions in a sincere, purposeful and forward looking manner,” he said. He added that Musharraf had agreed that the confidence building process between the two countries had made significant progress.

Musharraf vows to stop militants in Kashmir

China and India are the last two big markets left.As long as these two nations stay as they are they have nothing to worry about.Each cannot afford to antagonize the other.They have more to gain economically by staying friendly and play chess with the western powers.Bush will be gone in three years.Pakistan will be ripe for an indian invasion or a chinese takeover.Either way, pakistan`s `goose` is cooked and they know it.

#167 by Romair

[All this stuff about becoming a player is ego-based. It has no practical benefits.]

Didn’t see too many Pakis complain when Paki generals thought they could assume the leadership of the Ummah by virtue of being the sole nuclear power in the Islamic world. Now that the US has kicked Paki butt over their support to Taliban post-9/11, all of them have suddenly become against becoming players. Even today, this decision to lie low is based purely on the fact that Pakistan just cannot exert any influence beyond its borders, possibly Afghanistan’s.

[As I asked earlier, whom does India plan to have as its allies?]

Just because Pakistan cannot bring itself to ally with India, do you think there aren’t any other countries that will be willing? Even today, countries like France and Germany have begun to sit up and take notice of India’s growing prowess. As trade between India and these countries begins to grow, there is no reason why India cannot influence them to become its allies.

[India could try to force others to ally with it, much like Russia forced its neighbors.]

India has cordial relations with almost all of its neighbors barring Pakistan and Bangladesh. But then, do you think the US became a great power based on alliances with its neighbors like Canada and Mexico?

[But India is not powerful enough. And the neighbors will jump ship, as soon as they get the chance. And they will hate India for it.]

India is much powerful than all of its neighbors combined, barring China of course.

[Pakistan and India and SAARC nations should aspire to be EU. An economic union, of loosely federated, or even independent states, which have a common currency and free trade and no visas.]

What is the incentive for India to join an economic union with other weaker economies like Pakistan’s? Or do you want Pakistan to piggyback on India’s successes?

[The solutions to South Asia`s problems lie soving internal conflicts and problems. Not in trying to create new problems for others, by becoming players.]

Didn’t see such noble sentiments when Pakis thought they were bleeding India through a thousand cuts? Now that the Paki economy is in shambles and all dreams of wresting Kashmir lie in tatters, Pakis have discovered the virtues of solving South Asia’s problems.

[Had the USSR just solved its internal problems, instead of unnecessarily trying to become a player, it would have been far better off today, than the disintegrated country it turned into.]

The USSR disintegrated more because of its poor economy than its internal problems. Its economy did not keep pace with its military expenditure. India spends just about 2.5 % of its GDP on defense.

[Where is India going to get its energy needs fulfilled from to feed all the people, much less for becoming a player.]

India’s economy will continue to grow well into the 2050s and its economy will be as massive as the US economy by 2075. Even today, India is cobbling up alliances and investing in overseas energy sources.

[It is the Kuttaas from the Cantonemente & Civilian Kennels and their kuttee spouses and puppies who are the real curse upon Pakistan. These snakes who have been weaned by Miss Muffets of the grammar schools are the haraamzaadays & ghulaamzaadays who are the Rushdick promoters.] - boom boom.

...make up your mind old man...first you think they are dogs (kutta) of civil and military breed and then declare them snakes weaned by miss muffet, and then they are bastard (haramsaday) and finally call them ghulamzaday ( slave)... makes one wonder if you are
right up there...;)

Re: # 270

khamkhwa he just bought a dictionary and he had to use all the words he knows.... 8-()

delhiwala #263

`` He should have picked different choice of words.``

His opinion of Musharraf`s speech is less biased than mine or yours

Re: # 269

Babu Ji,
What I am saying is this;
At the end of the day, Nations will do what they want to do. Everybody knows that Pakistan was with old Afghan regime for whatever reasons, and they were pushed into no choice after 2001. They had to comply with the USA for their own survival and Mush had to do this task. He could have picked different words to make his argument or case. Thats All.

Re # 267

Temporal,

What is Chusni? I have seen you addressing chusni/echoboom.
Is that echoboom`s other/prior handle/nick or does it mean something!
Just curious.

Hello chusni/echoboom

enough frothing? coffee?

Hello Captain Clueless...Looks like Canuckistan is going to focus on aid for Pakistan and trade ties with India....even canuckistan thinks pakiland needs aid..along with rawanda and burkina faso....



Canada Overhauls Foreign Aid Programme

From: IFTIKHAR ALI
NEW YORK: -- Canada will overhaul its foreign aid programme, devoting most of its assistance to a group of 25 countries, including Pakistan, rather than spreading it out over more than 150 nations as at present, the government announced in Ottawa Tuesday.
The announcement was made in a wide-ranging foreign policy review which reconfirmed Ottawa`s intention to double its foreign aid to more than 5 billion Canadian dollars billion ($4 billion) by 2010 from 2001 levels, according to media reports from the Canadian capital.
Critics have long complained about what they see as the unfocused nature of Canada`s overseas assistance and ask why Ottawa is giving money to such emerging superpowers as China.

It said the 25 nations -- including Benin, Burkina Faso, Rwanda and Zambia -- were among the poorest on earth and had already demonstrated they could use aid effectively. But one key proposed recipient is Kenya, which Canada recently criticized for not clamping down on corruption.

The 25 major recipients in 2010 will be:
-- Benin, Burkina Faso, Cameroon, Ethiopia, Ghana, Kenya, Malawi, Mali, Mozambique, Niger, Rwanda, Senegal, Tanzania, Zambia
-- Bolivia, Guyana, Honduras, Nicaragua
-- Bangladesh, Cambodia, Indonesia, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Vietnam
-- Ukraine

A Caucasian friend of mine said something to the effect
`` It looked like the guy (Musharraf) would sell his mom ...``
bbabu:261

---

would?

Most likely the guy did. Most likely the guy is a product of such a transaction...

Other than Zia-ul-Haque, who was named by a civilian President ( Bhutto) all the rest are/were appointed by remote control. The masters make sure that such an appointee : Drinks, is a zaanee, does not pray, fast, nor performs Hajj ( Umra is legal reqmt. for visa; should not be cofused with religious bent: good for hoodwinking avaam though); does not keep beard, does not show interest in Islam or muslim affairs, keeps aloof from the company of Ulema but mixes very frankly with westernised-kanjaRR scum. Travels often to crawl upon the masters carpet, whimpers a lot when screws are tightened & begs for clemency, prefers progress over honour, believes in material gains over self respect and and and...

Enjoys selling his mom in open market.

Do you not see how these KanjaRRs take their wives on foreign tours. They copy their master.
Koi inn kanjaRRoan sey poochhay kay abay beevi ko naukri pay lai jaanay kee kyaa zaroorat hai.

Do Chinese, Indians, Japanese, Germans, Saudis, Iranis --name anyone who is not a pimp and KanjaRR does it and you will soon have the answer.

It is the Kuttaas from the Cantonemente & Civilian Kennels and their kuttee spouses and puppies who are the real curse upon Pakistan. These snakes who have been weaned by Miss Muffets of the grammar schools are the haraamzaadays & ghulaamzaadays who are the Rushdick promoters.