The Sweltering Sky

Re: # 12
//...Farzana Versey looks at immigrants legal and illegal as human issues..//

No she doesn`t. It`s the same old cry-me-river sob-story about muslim ummah. Read the following from the article:

[``On the other hand, there is acceptance of Hindu infiltrators in the North East. The deputy minister for national security in the previous government, I. D. Swami, had agreed to give them special treatment``]

She is complaining because special consideration has been given to hindus from Bdesh. Such special considerations are necessary because hidnus are severely persecuted in Bdesh. If ``human interest`` was her intention - then she would have never railed against the policy. In fact she should be out there championing such policies which is only hope for hindus[and other minorities] stuck in land of jihad that is Bdesh has become.

Re: # 12
//[As a neighbour the least we could do was to offer them refuge...]. ...Does this only apply if the applicant is a Hindu? ..//

Not only hindu - but other persecuted minorities e.g. christians, sikhs, chakmas [if any]. But the applicant has to prove that he/she/they are being persecuted and liberal policies should be adopted what should be considered as valid proof.

Refuge in India should be offered only to persecuted minorities in muslim countries like Bdesh.

Mr Snark

I don`t why you have such soft corners for Bangladeshi illegals, such things should not be encouraged.

India should have two-pronged policy to handle this : One, it should have liberal immigration policy towards persecuted minorities(hindus, sikhs, if any etc) from Bdesh. ... Two, it should have a temporary work visa policy which can be used other Bdeshis to come in in search for work.Needless to say - this visa should be very restricted.

Otherwise, the border should be cealed completely. Any illegal immgirants present should be deported.

Re: # 21

Where have I said that it`s impossible? On the other hand, can you please provide me instances of such an incident - where a _Bangladeshi_ illegal immigrant turned out to be a jihadi? My discomfort with the dominant discourse on Bangladeshi illegal immigration stems from my perception that such discourse is motivated to a substantial degree by the religion of the immigrants, not by the actual proven security detriment or the actual resource drain on the Indian state. It is a good thing that we do not brand the entire Nepali community as a whole as untrustworthy thieves based on the actions of a few. We should be proportionately reluctant to brand the entire Bangladeshi community in India terrorists.

Aha_snark #20,

Why do you consider it impossible that Bangladeshi jehadis can sneak in along with the refugees and create trouble in India?

Re: # 19
re: cayenne:

[.......Punjabis from modern day india do not migrate to Nigeria, Uganda, Egypt, Singapore and Brunei!!.They were the ones who went during colonial days and settled there.]

ahh but you never said so in your earlier post. Or were we supposed to understand what you thought?

[Yes, `60 Minutes` did a whole episode reporting on how many terrorista from south asia and the middle east ... (clipped) If you want details contact `60 minutes` and research North American articles about the same issue.]

Since you made the assertion, do you not think that you should support it? Or do you make assertions and leave marshalling the supporting testimony to your readers?

[It is well known that Bangladesh has used its` territory to subvert india.Based on the evidence india has given to the world , the effete UN et al, at the latest donor conference on bangladesh, bangladesh was not even invited.HOHO.At last the world is taking note of the menaces that we indians face from our neighbors.]

Right. Ridicule efforts of a neighbouring country to find aid. That`ll bring displays of gratitude and foster friendship. And no one will think that we`re a regional bully.

[And India`s interests should be paramount to indians.You are a disgrace.]

Coming from you, I take that as a compliment.

[It is true that the Air India bombing plot was hatched and concieved in canada.SO, canada did harbour the criminals who did it.]

Umm, so if Charles Sobhraj muses about a criminal plan in India and commits the crime in Katmandu, the State of India harboured him?

[And, the crime is a matter for the canadian crown to solve dutifully and bring the perpetrators to justice.This is international law, not an obligation.]

Kindly tell me which canon of International Law states this.

[You research and tell me!!.]

So. You make allegations and assertions. And then want me to research and prove them. Right.

[They are complicit then as much as the criminals who perpetrated the crime.]

Mm hmm. Then the Government of India is as culpable as the real thief when my Israeli friend was mugged in New Delhi, just because the police have not convicted anyone. Right?

You still have not answered a number of questions that I have raised in your earlier post.
1. What accessible support do you have for your claim that Bangladeshi illegal immigrants have, AS A COMMUNITY, been subversive of the Indian State and ungrateful for their opportunities in India
2. Can you please point me to a source of authority that states that ``There has been an insidious plan to penetrate Canada`s lower levels of government and judiciary by insidious south asians and middle easterners, funded by Wahabi money``
3. How can you say that the Government of India has asked for the Canadian Government to ``restart`` the Air India Trial? Can you please show me a website where this is reported?
4. How can you say Bangladesh is a theocracy?
5. What relevance do insults to stuka have in this discussion?

cheers,

#17 by Aha_Snark on April 18, 2005 12:02pm PT

.......Punjabis from modern day india do not migrate to Nigeria, Uganda, Egypt, Singapore and Brunei!!.They were the ones who went during colonial days and settled there.Currently Amrika, Kaneda and lastly the UK are MFN`s.Iraq for a few, `cause of the money.Fair enough.Yes, the last time i flew overseas, all the airline attendants who cleaned the toilets were punjabi speaking and from indian punjab during a stopover in Londinium.Touche`.All over the UK too.Yes, `60 Minutes` did a whole episode reporting on how many terrorista from south asia and the middle east slipped into canada from the US after 9/11, taking advantage of their lax asylum laws.The same program did another episode where they mentioned the same situation and mentioned US pressure brought to bear on Canadian authorities to police their country more effectively.If you want details contact `60 minutes` and research North American articles about the same issue.You will find aplenty.

As for the bangladeshis ,who cares what happened back in the days.I am dealing with the now.It is well known that Bangladesh has used its` territory to subvert india.Based on the evidence india has given to the world , the effete UN et al, at the latest donor conference on bangladesh, bangladesh was not even invited.HOHO.At last the world is taking note of the menaces that we indians face from our neighbors.We don`t need more of them in our land.The dalai has forsaken violence and is now talking the macao/hong kong formula for tibet.He is gracious towards his hosts, namely us, and is also accomodating towards the chinese.He is welcome.Gayoom is a supporter of india.The `maldives` is actually an anglicised version of the tamil/malyalam ``mala thivu`...translated `mala islands``.Maldivians are dravidians who were converted during the arab spice trade.Read Ibn Batuta`s travels through India.And, he visited much later.The maldivians are friendly and courteous towards us indians.And, they are muslims too.Religion is not the issue.Attitude is.And India`s interests should be paramount to indians.You are a disgrace.

It is true that the Air India bombing plot was hatched and concieved in canada.SO, canada did harbour the criminals who did it.And, the crime is a matter for the canadian crown to solve dutifully and bring the perpetrators to justice.This is international law, not an obligation.They did not do a good job of it.They have restarted the process because of pressure.You research and tell me!!.Even the Libyans had the decency to own up for the Lockerbie bombing.The canadians owe india and the indian government an apology for the shabby way in which they have handled this inquiry.They are complicit then as much as the criminals who perpetrated the crime.

Canada has made itself irrelevant over the years.Much of the happenings in Canada are not even mentioned on page 10 of any newspaper, even in djibouti, for sure.Yet it is a big, sparsely populated country that is ripe for human migration.And, they do need people.Ripe for nefarious people to play.

Re: # 13
re rahulmal:
[We should support all the human rights organiztions that are facilitating the poor people of Bangladesh get into our country.]

Right. And which ``human rights organiztions`` are doing so? Can you please show me where it has been said (apart from your good self) that such entities are facilitating illegal Bangladeshi immigration?

[BDR tortures, kills BSF officer]

As reported, the incident is shocking and heinous and I strongly condemn it. It is apparently a barbaric violation of international law and custom. But what does it have to do with Bangladeshi illegal immigration? Or are you saying that people cannot, should not or must not _Leave_ or _flee_ a country where such a thing takes place? Or that we should only accept immigrants from countries with impeccable records?

Re: # 10
re cayenne:

[..........Many times individuals and countries do things that defy common sense. Only in hindsight is everything 20/20]

I completely AGREE with you.
[There has been an insidious plan to penetrate Canada`s lower levels of government and judiciary by insidious south asians and middle easterners, funded by Wahabi money]
This is a most serious allegation. Undoubtedly, it must have been reported and commented on. Can you please point me to a website that hosts such reports or comments?

[... and still, Canada is harbouring dangerous terrorists and criminals from the south asian and middle eastern nations].

mm hmmm. Just like we grant political asylum or refugee status when we ``harbour`` ``dangerous terrorists`` such as the Dalai Lama, Maumoon Abdul Gayoom, the President of the Maldives in 1988 and the political opposition in Nepal from the royal takeover a few months ago. If country X oppresses Mr. Q and he seeks asylum in country Y, which calls him a ``dangerous terrorist and criminal``, does he automatically become one or will person C who supports country Y`s (alleged) claim have to present at least a shred of evidence to support his/her assertion? I`m not saying that Canada has not given asylum to questionable persons. I`m asking for something supporting your contention that it grants asylum only, substantially or overwhelmingly to ``dangerous terrorists`` and ``criminals``.

[For now, US pressure has resulted in these forces lying dormant.]

Right. And if these ``forces`` did not exist, they would ... appear to be lying dormant, wouldn`t they? And what forms does US exert pressure on Canada? And what would they do if they were active? How can you answer the previous question without extensive knowledge of their motives and methods?

[Unless the rest of the world starts putting pressure on Canada to weed out these elements of terror, we will once again be hit by them at an unsuspecting time.]

So you say. Until now, you have not cited a single shred of evidence, from partisan sources or otherwise that Canada is harbouring elements of terror that will ``hit`` the ``rest of the world`` (but not Canada?).

[Indian pressure has come to bear on Canada restarting the trial...]

You mean that the Government of India has asked for the Canadian Government to ``restart`` the trial? Can you please show me a website where this is reported?

[... against the criminals who are living free , sheltered by Canadians, in the Air India bombing.]

But if the highest court in the land with the following reasoning, the accused are still ``criminals``? ``Justice is not achieved, however, if persons are convicted on anything less than the requisite standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Despite what appear to have been the best and most earnest of efforts by the police and the Crown, the evidence has fallen markedly short of that standard.``[1]

[In my opinion the Canadians are also criminals and should be treated as such, till they bring the perpetrators of this heinous crime to justice.]

All Canadians? Even cousin Pinky, who`s three years old?

[Bangladeshis have no goodwill towards indians.]

Riight. That`s why the Indian cricket team was cheered when it first played Pakistan in Dhaka. I`m not saying that the BNP did not come to power on an ``Indian Hegemony`` plank. That they did so does not mean that the entire country has and will forever have no goodwill towards India. And according to one news report [2] by a retired counter intelligence operative, they had a huge amount of goodwill towards India, but it vanished over the past 36 years. How? Why? These are questions we should be asking ... rather than painting an entire country (that owes it`s existence to India`s actions at that time) as harbouring ``no goodwill`` towards India.

[BUt, they are subversive and aren`t really grateful for the chance.]

Kindly show how they are, as a community, A) Subversive and B) not ``really grateful for the chance``. I`ll tell you how to do it. Find out instances where Bangladeshi immigrant _individuals_ have been guilty of subversion in India and then, contrasting it with figures of total Bangladeshi illegal immigration in India, set forth the proposition that the entire population of Bangladeshi illegal immigrants is ``subversive``.
Secondly, tell me how Bangladeshi illegal immigrants should demonstrate and declare their gratitude (to India?) ``for the chance``.

[I don`t know if it is their theocracy that teaches them so, but once these people get here, even when they`re living among rodents they pretend that they`re inheritors of some big cultural lineage of Bengalis.]

Just like all Bengalis. And what`s wrong of being proud of your cultural roots, even if rats play among your feet? Oh and how is it a theocracy when the Prime Minister or the President are not necessarily from the clergy? Or do not become religious heads automatically when they are appointed so?

[Ateast the punjabis who clean toilets in London, NewYork and Toronto do it willingly for the almighty dollar.]

You mean they aren`t proud of their culture? Are you kidding? And the Bangladeshi rickshaw puller carts people around for his culture? Can you please clarify?

[``Stuka`` is an aberration.He will sell his soul and his loyalty to his country for a doughnut.]

We`re not discussing stuka here. Or are we? What does insulting stuka have to do with the discussion at hand?

[But most punjabis are loyal menial servants of the white people.They only migrate to countries with white populations.]

Right. Like Nigeria, Uganda, Egypt, Singapore and Brunei.[3]

[SO, its` not about religion.]

How have your statements in this interact shown this to be?

Cayenne, in your interact, you have made the following assertions that are completely unsupported, even by sources such as hinduunity.org or rss.org:-

1. Wahhabi ``money`` is funding an ``insidious plan`` by ``insidious south asians and middle easterners`` to ``penetrate Canada`s lower levels of government and judiciary``
2. Canada is harbouring dangerous terrorists and criminals from the south asian and middle eastern nations.
3. For now, US pressure has resulted in these forces lying dormant.
4. Unless the rest of the world starts putting pressure on Canada to weed out these elements of terror, we will once again be hit by them at an unsuspecting time.
5. Indian pressure has come to bear on Canada restarting the trial...
6. Bangladeshis have no goodwill towards indians.
7. (Illegal Bangladeshi immigrants) are subversive and aren`t really grateful for the (opportunity to make a living in India).
8. ...once these people get here, even when they`re living among rodents they pretend that they`re inheritors of some big cultural lineage of Bengalis.
9. ``Stuka`` is an aberration.He will sell his soul and his loyalty to his country for a doughnut.
10. ...most punjabis are loyal menial servants of the white people.They only migrate to countries with white populations.
11. Bangladesh is a theocracy.

In your post of 295 words, you`ve made 11 unsupported declarations. I`m going to postulate a pet unit called a grabkrocch - it`s refers to the number of unsupported declarations per 100 words (ud/100w) of Chowk interact. Your post is 3.73 grabkrocchs.

I apologise to you for calling your earlier post ``xenophobic frothing``. I should not have called you or your post names. Again, my apologies.

cheers.
[1] http://www.courts.gov.bc.ca/Jdb-txt/SC/05/03/2005BCSC0350.htm
[2] http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=2004112502601000.htm&date=2004/11/25/&prd=th&
[3] http://www.uohyd.ernet.in/sss/cinddiaspora/occ8.html

I think we citizens should take matters into our own hands , if the govt. is hard pressed for the task, i.e. hunting down illegals.The citizens of border towns in texas are volunteering to apprehend illegals from across mexico.If they can do so in their country, we can in ours.Let`s go hunt for illegal bangladeshis and hand them over to the authorities.As for nepalese,the kingdom of Nepal,like Bhutan are defacto protectorates of India.It`s either us or the Chinese!!.NO contest there.We have reciprocal treaties with these nations where citizens, goods and services can move freely.With bangladesh, there isn`t reciprocity or trade.There`s only hate for India.No mercy to Bangladeshis.

Re: # 14:

Just need to clarify...

[About FV being fair, I would have agreed with you had I not read one of her posts in another board where she wrote that majority communalism is more dangerous than minority communalism.]

This comment was not made by me...however, I did interact on the subject.
- - -

Aha_Snark:

Thanks for seeing it as a humanising story; there will always be complex issues within issues.

Aha_Snark,
I think by Indian law even if one is born in India, it does not automatically make him/her a citizen. So children of refugees are not automatic citizens, just like children of lankan tamils are not. We are a nation with poor resources to track down illegals, so illegals are going to be a major menace to our society, no matter where they come from.

About FV being fair, I would have agreed with you had I not read one of her posts in another board where she wrote that majority communalism is more dangerous than minority communalism. This maybe true of other countries but not of India, because in India muslims number close to 130 million, which is more than the population of many nations and hence are not a minority in the classical aspect.

We should support all the human rights organiztions that are facilitating the poor people of Bangladesh get into our country. Let`s be fair, we have enough for ourselves and some more to spare.

If you`ve not made up your mind, this will help you ...

BDR tortures, kills BSF officer

AGARTALA: Bangladesh border guards abducted a BSF officer from a flag meeting, beat him up and hit him with an axe before shooting him dead at point blank range at a border town near Agartala in Tripura, BSF officials said. Two other BSF personnel were also injured in the violence on Saturday.

Full Article

Re: # 7
Re vivek:

[I think its very unfair to ask a developing country like India to take the burden of illegals from Bangladesh. ]

I completely AGREE on this front. I am not for a moment for ``illegal`` (whatever that is) immigration. However, if a person applies for refugee status from the Government of India and receives it, if s/he goes on to apply for citizenship and receives that too, should this process be begrudged? If someone has been living and working in India for more than 30 years, should that person be begrudged Indian citizenship? What about the children of that person born in India? Should all non-Hindus be ineligible for Indian citizenship? You say that [As a neighbour the least we could do was to offer them refuge...]. Does this only apply if the applicant is a Hindu?

Do you agree with the fifteenth word of this document?[1] Should it describe India or would you ask for it to be expunged?

Farzana Versey looks at immigrants legal and illegal as human issues, which, in my opinion, is a good thing to do. She paints a picture of people living in wretched poverty who cross the border into India, hoping for a better life.

[1] http://indiacode.nic.in/coiweb/coifiles/preamble.htm

The fifth colunm is getting bigger and stronger by the day.

6 by Aha_Snark on April 18, 2005 6:23am PT
Re: # 3

Re xenophobic frothing by cayenne #3

..........Many times individuals and countries do things that defy common sense.Only in hindsight is everything 20/20.There has been an insidious plan to penetrate Canada`s lower levels of government and judiciary by insidious south asians and middle easterners, funded by Wahabi money.The Americans have been screaming bloody murder at the Canadians for over three years now, and still, Canada is harbouring dangerous terrorists and criminals from the south asian and middle eastern nations.For now, US pressure has resulted in these forces lying dormant.Unless the rest of the world starts putting pressure on Canada to weed out these elements of terror, we will once again be hit by them at an unsuspecting time.Indian pressure has come to bear on Canada restarting the trial against the criminals who are living free , sheltered by Canadians, in the Air India bombing.In my opinion the Canadians are also criminals and should be treated as such, till they bring the perpetrators of this heinous crime to justice.

Bangladeshis have no goodwill towards indians.They escape living hell to come to India.A rather meagre existence in India is better than Bangladesh.BUt, they are subversive and aren`t really grateful for the chance.I don`t know if it is their theocracy that teaches them so, but once these people get here, even when they`re living among rodents they pretend that they`re inheritors of some big cultural lineage of Bengalis.Ateast the punjabis who clean toilets in London, NewYork and Toronto do it willingly for the almighty dollar.``Stuka`` is an aberration.He will sell his soul and his loyalty to his country for a doughnut.But most punjabis are loyal menial servants of the white people.They only migrate to countries with white populations.SO, its` not about religion.Throw them bangladeshis out of India is what i say for our own good.