Soapbox Sania

#287 by indikad75

BTW, where in Hyderabad are you?

#283 and #287 by indikad75

Excellent posts!! You couldn`t have put it any better than this. Prashant123 is the Hindu version of vertex :-)

Re: # 287

More good points.........much better replies than those offered by trolls like Vertex

Re: # 100

``So I dont know how we are gonna handle this , but in the event of a serious India-Pakistan war breaking out , (for the ones we have had so far were limited and confined to the borders) , we can fully expect atleast 120 million of the 150 million muslims in India to strike out against India and help out Pakistan just the way the Mukthi Bahani and the Bengalis helped Indian Army defeat Pakistan in 1971.``

You couldnt have got worse man. This is insulting. 120 million Muslims in India dont need help from a country which has smaller numbers as compared to IMs here to create a war in India. The idea is so repulsive. You know man what you are actually doing by making these statements is denigrating the sacrifice made by thousands of Indian soldiers (of all faiths) who fought against Pakistan. You think the 1965 and 1971 wars fought along all places where India shared a border with Pak (and I am not even talking about the Naval battles which were off those so called borders) was a restricted conflict?? !! Just goes to show how much you know about our Army and its wars. You are making an insinuation which is extremely gross. Indian Muslims have fought and died for this country and will continue to do so despite extremist thoughts like yours.

Another clarification: Mukti Bahinis were not precursors of VHP or Bajrang Dal as you might have thought. They too were Muslims and were fighting against the Pakistani oppression in Bangladesh. It was Bengalis (later Bangladeshis) vs Pakistanis who were all Muslims. The Mukti Bahini, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, and his Awami League were fighting for their independence from Pakistan. Nothing of that sort is happening with Indian Muslims. Get your ideas clear.

indikad ji
# 283

Shaabash! That was an excellent post and a great punch. I think vertex needs to learn from you. He has lots of valid points but his insistence on his/their (?) exclusivity from common norms of Indian society/country make people react negatively.

Keep it up. None of us has any right to question your or anybody`s loyalty to the country until and unless one proves himself/herself a traitor.

Regards

Re: # 283

Good points made.....IMHO there are far more Hindus who subvert the Indian constitution and its laws through their actions than IM-s. Perhaps we can look at the number of cases under IPC which have been booked against people and profile them on communal lines.

Probably, the IM-s are much more fearful of Indian laws and the governmental aurthorities.....and you are probably going to find more hindus confidently moving in the corriders of power trying to fix things illegally..........their loyality to the Indian laws is infact no better or worse than that of anyone from a different community..........

Re: # 278

Murali`s is not a Sinhala.. he is Tamilian and so is his wife.

Re: # 97

Re: # 97

``During the Kargil war , many maulvis thoughout India had issues fatwa against muslims joining the Indian Army..... ``

This is interesting, Can you please give me links/references? I would like to explore this a lil more.

``Basically , the difference between hindus and muslims of India is that hindus see India as their country. ``

I think it is extremely sad to hear a comment like this from you. Prashant, it is comments like this which puts Indian Muslims on a perpetual trial. Why am I as an Indian Muslim asked to prove my loyalty to this country in some extraordinary way. You can be a Hindu, not pay your taxes, break rules of this country and still be a patriot just coz u are a Hindu. Sorry I dont accept it. I am AS Indian as any Hindu and I refuse to take this test of loyalty. Who gave you this right to question my Indianness anyway? Lets stop asking IMs to choose between country and religion. It is ridiculous. Religion is a private matter.

``To hindus their country is more important than religion. There is no concept of extra-territorial loyalties for hindus.``

Heard of the Kailash Yatra to Mansarovar and Mt.Kailash. Am sure you know Mansarovar is not in India. You need a passport to get there. Thousands of Hindus go there every year. Why? Why do they go to another country i.e. China - a country which launched an unprovoked military assault on India in 1962. Let me give you the official Indian position on China: China continues to illegally occupy 38,000 sq km of Indian territory in Kashmir, besides 5,180 sq km ceded by Pakistan to China. Beijing, on its part, lays claim to 90,000 sq km of territory in Arunachal Pradesh, and has just recognised Sikkim as an Indian state.
But Hindus will still go to Kailash.. tomorrow if China denies entry to Kailash, it would become all the more difficult for Hindus to get there. Talk about extra-territorial loyalties.

``As for muslims , my uncle used to live in Mumbai in the 70s/80s/90s.........I wish he was a little net savvy and recount his personal experiences and observations of muslims there. A vivid description of muslim behaviour in Mumbai , India after the last ball six hit by Javed Miandad should make for interesting reading``

Havent we heard so much about it. And since you raised cricket and Indian Muslims, I am sure you owuld have heard of Zaheer Khan, Mohammad Kaif and Irfan Pathan? The last said knocked over quite a few Pakis in the last couple of series played between the countries. Ever felt that extra territorial loyalty in them?

Am not denying that there are Muslims in India who support Pakistan. And I am all for throwing them out of MY country. For all you know they might not be Indian at all but some migrant Bangladeshi staying illegally in India. But for God sake dont make them out to be representative of Indian Muslims. Let me give you a few examples here. Check out these links:

http://www.indianexpress.com/ie20011226/nat12.html

It talks about the Naval officer, Lt.Cdr Raj Kumar- definitely a Hindu - who was caught along with two other sailors (Hindus again) selling off photos of Indian Naval ships to ISI agents. Am sure it didnt even come to your notice or was it deliberately ignored??? And mind you man, this is just one case.. there are so many others where Hindus have been involved spying. Samba is another I can quote

http://www.sabrang.com/cc/comold/aug00/costory2.htm

This one carries an interview of the then IG Intelligence, BSF, Vibhuti Narain Rai.. and this is what he said,
``If you were to examine in detail all the espionage–related arrests made since Independence, we can see that non–Muslims — Hindus, Christians and Sikhs — have all been caught for spying. This includes those caught for spying at the army headquarters, defence establishments, our top scientific establishments. Monetary gains and the greed for more are not confined to a particular community! For money, hard cash, anybody will do anything``

Should we start generalising? Reminds me of the Muhammad Ali story at WTC- I am not sure how true it is because no sources were cited but it makes sense: Muhammad Ali was visiting the site of the World Trade Center (WTC) to see the devastation. A number of reporters approached him, and one of them asked, “how do you feel knowing that the terrorists share your religion?” Staying true to his wit, Muhammad Ali responded, “how do you feel knowing that Hitler shared yours?”

Dont worry I wont ask you as to how you feel that Raj Kumar and the others caught with him share your religion? I am not going to blame all Hindus for their mistake. The religion has nothing to with it. And that applies to all. Hope atleast this makes you think twice before making comments which hurt self respecting INDIANS like me.

What is the definition of a modern Hindu? One who cannot stand the idea of a modern Muslim unless s/he follows the path of nirvana or has been lobotomised by smart marketing?

One of the questions I had posed in the article: Has Sania managed to change people’s views about Muslims? Going by the responses on this board, the answer is NO!
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#228 by vivek:

[Ultimately muslims have to make their own choices and if they make the wrong one, they should not blame the rest of us for that.]

We made our choice when we decided to stay back in India to make it a better place! We do not blame “the rest of you” for our wrong choices but don’t expect us to applaud the rest of YOU for us making the right ones!
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#230 by avkrishna to vertex (Some excellent posts from you, vertex; I hope there are more ‘mullahs’ like you…):

[What if Hindus don`t care so much for the success of ``Indian`` experiment? whatever it might be (I am assuming that you are referring to ``Secular`` constitution)]

Then it might fail, but at least there would have been an attempt.

[What if Hindus want India officially to be a Hindu country?]

That’s sweet. You are asking! So, be our guest… But there is a problem. Will there be a plebiscite to decide how many Hindus agree? Hindus say that Hinduism cannot be defined, it can include atheists, animalists, minimalists, maximalists, feminists, anarchists…of course you can have a “sarva ‘ism’ sambhava” sort of Constitution. But my guess is that it won’t work.

Anyhow, if you think there is viability and understanding among Brahmins (North and South blocs), Rajputs, Baniyas, Dalits and various other streams of belief and non-belief, then do present a blueprint. We, the largest minority, shall go through it and see if it is feasible and what parts of the land can come under this ‘official Hindu India’ jurisdiction. Happy? :)

PS: Please take this in a lighter vein; there is no way you will get anything from us!
PPS: I have posted a response to your note on my writer’s page…
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#243 by rahul_capri:

[But what is bothersome is when undemocratic, archaic and unrepresentative organisations like AIMPLB decide on legal matters pertaining to all Muslims. They are influencing every Muslim`s life in a big way. Can a muslim still say let ``us`` decide what we want. Are the AIMPLB ``us``?]

The AIMPLB is a fractured organisation. You might be aware that there was also a breakaway group and a separate one started by women. It is wrong to say that they decide legal matters pertaining to all Muslims. There are several sects that follow their own councils and counsel.

When Muslims say ‘us’, it is more of an identification with being a minority of a certain kind. In contemporary India, even atheists feel the need to at least understand the compulsions of the community.

Re. your earlier post, I have already stated that I have no problems at all with Sania’s skirt; when I mentioned “so god will forgive her” in the blurb, it was a reference to her seeking such forgiveness. It wasn’t what I would like her to do.

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And:

The first para is supposed to set the tone…

I did not call myself a liberal freak; somebody else did.

Poor Sania’s family is now expected to keep a cut-out of Praful Bidwai’s article…go beyond the first sentence of that laudatory quote…

What is my problem if a Muslim is called a patriot? It is a problem because people deem it is necessary to do so. I have already answered it in an earlier post.

[Damned if we do, damned if we don`t.]

Oh god! With such a victim attitude, some of you can talk about having an official Hindu country…just admit it: you would be at a complete loss without us.

Re: # 212
``Nope. You are WRONG. Why should that be left to muslims only? Why can`t I have say who is a model muslim or model anything else? As a fellow-indian, I have a right to say when other fellow-indians are going down the wrong path, because how the muslim community[we are talking about 130 mil people] fairs affects profoundly how the country overally will fair. It`s affects me, you and Kalam, Abdul and everybody. ``

Excellent observation.

I agree, whether someone is a ``good`` Indian muslim/hindu/sikh/christian would definitely depend upon the appraisement of his actions and character by people from other Indian communities as well................... we cannot have a person who espouses violence (jehad, dharmayuddha or whatever you ay) against members of other communities being considered as a `good` person!
So if any of these chowk mullahs do not consider APJ as a `good` muslim without considering how his character and actions are appraised by non-muslims in India then they are living in their fools paradise.

Re: # 172

More Muslims are getting killed in Kashmir than Hindus. Please dont make it a Hindu vs Muslim thing. Terrorists are terrorists. Lets not tag them with religions and create fruther trouble.

All these discussions are so cheap and tawdry.Tawdry writing begets tawdry comments.Phlegm.

Re: #277 by indikad75

So the LTTE and the Sri Lankan government are one and the same?

Re: # 41

By that logic, the jehadis in Kashmir are only creating violence for their demand on Kashmir to be fulfilled. Give them Kashmir and it will all stop.

The LTTE not only attacked an Indian PM (later blasted him out of this world, when he became ex PM) but have also been indulging in acts of violence against India, its people and that too on out territory. They have attacked Indian Naval and Coast guard ships and have supplied arms to Naxals in Andhra. Isnt that against India?

Re: # 40

vivek, every city has a conservative side to it. BTW, Sania doesnt live in the old city, neither does she study there.. she comes from Nasr School for girls which is one of the posh schools in Hyderabad (and the hemlines as high as what FV had `eons ago`). So i dont think it is an achievement of any sort. Had Sania`s father, Imran Mirza been an auto driver from Mallepally (part of the old city you mentioned), her mother a housewife doing stitching work on her sewing machine, and she a student of Madrasa e Aliya, I would have agreed with your view point. Old city doesnt symbolise the Hyderabad of today. Lets give credit purely to her abilities to play and win. Most importantly, all this adulation and attention is only as long as she is successful. Remember, someone called Anna Kournikova?

#207 by FarzanaVersey

[It takes gall for anyone to even have to say he is “patriotic”. This is bothersome. Were Shankar Dayal Sharma, V.V.Giri, R. Venkataraman and even K.R.Narayanan declared patriotic by punks?]

But that is because we are discussing Kalam and not the other gentlemen. Even so, those of us who have read Kalam`s books or his speeches can vouch for his patriotism. Every speech, every book of his oozes patriotism. So just what is wrong if people call him a patriot? Something surely must be wrong with you because we call a Muslim a patriot, that`s bothersome. We don`t, it is still bothersome. Damned if we do, damned if we don`t.