No Retreat

check out ``his`` team ............


urstruly is third from the right

Urstruly #80: ``please explain to me, is there an avenue open for women running among men here?``

Now to answer your question (even though you will not answer mine). There is one avenue that springs to mind. And that is the tawaf around the Kaaba.

But to get to the gist of your question: Depends on what you are using for interpretation. If you are basing your interpretation on Hadith, then women are condemned to hell, regardless of what they do, since most of the people in hell will be women. They cannot even walk amongst men, much less run. Then again, there are stories of women fighting in wars amongst men. At the same time, according to the same interpretations of hadith, men cannot wear shorts or track suits (below their ankles). Or tight clothes (once again track suits). Which means, all sports of any kind are banned for any Muslim human being, unless he wears a dhoti; and that too above the ankles............and a very lose one at that...........So Muslims should not participate in sports, at all - men or women............if you want to follow hadith-based Shariah...........

However, if you interpret from the Quran, there is hardly any restriction on anything (barring a few issues). The Quran is far too abstract, and far too small to start putting restrictions on each and every thing. This, along with the fact that Islam bans the clergy (and pushes egalitarianism at its basic core), is why it has been quite successful over the years. In fact the success of Islam, will always be inversely proportional to the size of the clergy, at any time in history..........

In addition, the Quran requires a context in which it is to be interpreted. That is far too obvious. Since most parts of the Quran are interpreted within a context, already..........

For example, the timings for setting a fast are describe in verse 2:187, as:

``may eat and drink until the white thread of light becomes distinguishable from the dark thread of night at dawn.``

Now suppose I move to Yellowknife, in the Nothern part of Canada, where they have 24 hours of sunlight, at certain times. And 24 hours of darkness. When do I set my fast? And when do I open it?

If I follow the Quran strictly, I will die, if I fast in Yellowknife, because I will not be able to eat for weeks, because the sun will not have come out or set..........

So, maybe, just maybe, men wore dhotis while running in the local sporting events, during the time of Muhammad, because track suits had not been invented............If they had Adidas and Nike back then, they would have opted for for track suits............

My aunt who is in her early forties, teaches at a local Medical College in Lahore. All her life she has been going to Lawrence gardens. Before she heads to lecture, she drops off her daughters at the Convent, and then goes to Lawrence Gardens, runs 3 miles in full shalwar kameez, sneakers and hijab. She normally does not wear hijab but while running in Lawrence Gardens, she always does wear it. She has kept herself in great shape due to this habit, as well as reaped stress lowering benefits in her hectic life. She is a religious and highly spiritual person, and I myself have prayed behind her as she led Maghrib prayer enmasse with her nieces and nephews at a picnic we had in Lawrence Gardens.

The air and the public spaces are not the property of the men, they belong to women equally.
The MMA plays upon the fears and insecurities of men while using the flag of Islam.

Urstruly #80: ``Unlike you people, we Muslims infer jurisprudence from Qura`n and hadith. Now please explain to me, is there an avenue open for women running among men here? You have posted the evidence yourself.``

As usual, you have not answered the question I asked. And are trying to divert the discussion. I asked you to point me to the, ``Islamic jurisprudence (as it is inferred from Qura`n and Hadith),`` which stated that it is legal for you to wear shorts. You did not point me to anything.

The last time we had a discussion, I had challenged you to explain how Hadith could be considered genuine, when they were orally passed, over 200 years, before being written. You stated that they were in written form in a museum in Turkey. I challenged you on that. And you refused to reply, other than the standard declaration of calling me an Ahmedi, or a non—Muslim etc.

You seem to have a habit of throwing around the term, “Quran and Hadith,” unnecessarily, thereby turning Islam into a joke. Apparently, very few people on this site have studied the subject, and thus, you try to bulldoze your ideas, over them. I have spent a lot of time studying Islam and the life of Muhammad. Two things I am quite fascinated by. Which is probably why I am not as turned off by Islam as many people and not as obsessed with it as many. In fact, other than my own profession, much of my book reading is on the history of Islam.

It is also why I can easily see the hollowness of so many arguments that you try to pass of, as if based in Islam. And I challenge you to prove them. And over my four years or more on Chowk, you have yet to prove one. Even though I tend to argue them in your own domain, i.e. Shariah.

Let me provide you with the truth: Under any Shariah, with a basis in hadith, it is banned for a Muslim male to expose any portion of his leg, between the navel and knee. This is what is widely acceptable, by, “scholars.” So wearing shorts is banned in Islam, not only for women, but for men, also. Because even the longest shorts expose something between the navel and knee. So they are banned according to Hadith.

In fact, according to Hadith (I can quote them to you, if you want); men are not wear pants going below the ankle. Do you wear pants? I assume you do. Do they go below your ankles? I assume they do. Then you are in violation of Shariah.

It is also illegal to wear tight pants. Once again, I am sure, you do that as well, if you wear jeans.

So your own dress code is in strict violation of Shariah, because, you wear shorts and pants. What will be the punishment for that? At the very least, don’t you think you should first apply the Shariah on yourself, before targeting women and other entities?

Gotta admit...saris do look rather majestic....as a formal uniform it`s at least striking and impressive albeit not very functional...

are bhau, please drive your santro to a nearby police station in amchi mumbai and you will see plenty of female cops in khakhi saris.

I`m kinda proud of our indian women......they`re cops, firefighters, weightlifters, construction workers, professionals of all disciplines, dancing girls......they span the whole spectrum of occupations.......way to go.......i got another pic pf weightlifter malleswari........cool..........

http://thatscricket.indiainfo.com/olympics/2000/image/indiaathletics.html

Re: # 73

???...Indian female police wear uniform///pants////atleast in the metros///maybe in the towns and villages they wear saris////most of them are butch and with busty bosoms///they chew paan, cuss, swear, are gruff and show no mercy to anyone....especially men. Women in the armed forces are more genteel and well proportioned.Maybe, many of them are the progeny of armed forces personnel.

urstruly to romair ...

``Unlike you people, we Muslims infer jurisprudence from Qura`n and hadith.``

............ so romair is a kafir after all ! .......... and pray, who are ``we`` muslims ? ... are we talking about the murderous mullah brigade that is out to grab power by getting us all excited over bare legs and bosoms ? ............. the koran and the hadith are like das capital and the communist manifesto - divine documents to be exploited by wicked men ...........

Re: # 63
I totally agree with Urstruly here. I just want to add in that there was a photo session of PM with Mukhtaran Mai just recently one wonder`s if same thing occur with the wives of PM or President then the will make that issue Public and do photo sessions in front of press, I feel that they are using Mukhtaran Mai as a ladder to move forwad which they the call modernism. I moved to West in my teen age since then i am waitting for that day when a rape case will be make public one wonders why this thing does not happen here where a women get rapped after each 20seconds. I listened Qazi Sahib views on marathon race he just said that he has no ojection on womens taking part in such activity but there should be seprate arrangements for each gender since Pakistan is an Islamic State.

Re: # 63
I totally agree with Urstrulyhere. I just want to add in that there was a photo session of PM with Mukhtaran Mai just recently one wonder`s if same thing occur with the wives of PM or President then the will make that issue Public and do photo sessions in front of press, I feel that they are using Mukhtaran Mai as a ladder to move forwad which they the call modernism. I moved to West in my teen age since then i am waitting for that day when a rape case will be make public one wonders why this thing does not happen here where a women get rapped after each 20seconds. I listened Qazi Sahib views on marathon race he just said that he has no ojection on womens taking part in such activity but there should be seprate arrangements for each gender since Pakistan is an Islamic State.

Re: # 79

My job is done. I have pointed you towards the right direction.

Unlike you people, we Muslims infer jurisprudence from Qura`n and hadith. Now please explain to me, is there an avenue open for women running among men here? You have posted the evidence yourself.

Urstruly #63: ``First of all, under Islamic jurisprudence (as it is inferred from Qura`n and Hadith) the bare minimum for both men and women is specifically defined in no uncertain terms. For men the bare minimum (in jurists terminology it is called ``sattar`` meaning the `covered` or `hidden`.) is an area that starts right below the navel and goes up to right above the knee cap.``

The bare minimum dress, according to Islam, for men, is actually not from the navel to right above the knee cap. It is from the navel to the knee. Do point me to where you got the definition, of right above the knee..........

``So men can wear shorts, without even wearing shirts. I have thus worn shorts.``

I don`t know of any kind of shorts that go to the knee, other than a very very long pair of Bermuda shorts, or Capri pants. No male wears those to play sports. So, within the boundaries of the discussion you have given, i.e. Shariah, men are only allowed to wear extremely long Bermuda shorts. So you along with any sports team in Pakistan, is in violation..........Even if we take your definition, normal shorts do not go, ``right above the knee cap,`` i.e. they go to the middle of the thigh. So, even according to your definition, sports shorts are not allowed in Islam............

I don`t believe in using Hadith, for jurisprudence. But since you do, here are some references:

1. Reported Muhammad Jahsh, ``The Messenger of Allah, upon whom be peace, passed by Ma`mar while his thighs were uncovered. He said, to him, `O Ma`mar, cover your thighs, for they are (part of the) `aurah.`` This is related by Ahmad, al-Hakim and al-Bukhari in Tareekh and in mu`allaq form in his Sahih.

2. Reported Jurhad, ``The Messenger of Allah passed by me when the cloak I was wearing did not cover my thigh. He said, `Cover your thigh, for it (is part of the) `aurah.`` This is related by Ahmad, Abu Dawud and at-Tirmidhi, who called it hassan, and by al-Bukhari in mu`allaq form in the Sahih.

3. Hadith - Sunan of Abu Dawood, Narrated AbuJurayy Jabir ibn Salim al-Hujaymi
The Prophet saaws said, ``Have your lower garment halfway down your shin; if you cannot do it, have it up to the ankles. Beware of trailing the lower garment, for it is conceit and Allah does not like conceit.``

Re: # 58

HisExcellency:

Actually you are missing the point. And it is because you probably don`t live in Pakistan.

As mentioned earlier, Punjab isn`t the Pakhtun belt where with the help of Americans and Faujiz the mullahs managed to engineer a victory. Cities like Gujranwala are industrial towns and are going through the SAME evolutionary process as other agrarian cities have gone through. This means woman will be participating in the public sphere. More not less.

Your comment on foreign investors only going to Lahore, Karachi, ISB was very immature. Lahore, Karachi, ISB only make up 15-20 percent of Pakistan`s population. But most terrorists - sectarian and otherwise - emerge from the cities you mentioned. The CONSERVATIVE centers. A foreigner isnt going to care whether Lahore, Karachi, ISB is in the tribal belt, or in Sipah-Sahab`s adda ie Jhang district.

Plus, asking the Punjab government to focus only on Lahore is not smart. That`s why you`re not a politician or a representative of the people (probably also why you prefer Fauji governments).

But you can see the clash of conservative and progressive values quite clearly.

Gujranwala has become the center of obscenity. I have no problems with that particularly since the obscenity is mostly due to a reaction to convulted paradigms of morality. But this becomes problematic when people begin to start to hoot and holler with something as innocent as a public mix-gender marathon. Whereas if two-weeks sold out strip shows go on in the theatres everyday is acceptable.

The relativity of moral values needs to be addressed. Because the reality has changed.

Re: # 72

Vertex (and yourtruly)... dickheads, why don’t you run whatever way you want, like Kuran and hadees squeezed in your ass, and let other decide how they want to run? Is that a good compromise or what? Nobody in most of Pakistan gives a shyt about what people like you think or believe, you can go and fk yourself.

I am quite sure, the pant-wearing cops outnumber the sari-wearing ones in this job