No Retreat
Beena Sarwar April 25, 2005
#1 Posted by cayenne on April 25, 2005 1:45:37 am
You paks cannot have your cake and eat it.or , for that matter , all of us.Your country portrays itself as a champion of islam and reaps enormous benefits in terms of money and investment from rich nations such as Saudi Arabia, which is a Wahabi theocracy and with that munificence will come compliance with their accepted norms of behaviour.You cannot take their money with one hand and then tell them that they cannot tell you what to do with it.And, women are as responsible for men, for the well being of any society.Tell the Saudis and other rich fundamentalists to piss off, gird up your loins, work hard and be content with the fruits of your labor and create the society that is free, fair and equitable to all , with room for all , including those with fundamentalist views and reactionaries.OR, you can just claim ancestry in india and emigrate back here.That`s what we indians have done.We don`t whine.We have created our own equity.That`s why the world is respecting us.
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#2 Posted by Urstruly on April 25, 2005 6:09:20 am
I would very much like to see Mushraf`s wife, his daughters, and his daughter in law as well as that of Chudri Shujaat`s and shoukat Aziz`z running in the knickers first. (apni nikaltay nahiN aur hamari dekhne aa jaatay haiN). I think they should set an example first. After all Zia ul Haq rode a bike to work too, didn`t he?
#3 Posted by Kulharee on April 25, 2005 7:31:02 am
Re: # 2
Urstruly, Are you pretending to be dumb? There’s no need for that. What difference does it make if women of their family run or not? Not all Mullah’s would like to marry their 6 year old girl off to a 60 year old man either, so shove it. Every woman is born with a pussy, and your Mullahs seem to have reduced human and civil rights down to a sight of a pussy. They can shove their Islam up their ass and get the freck out of people’s lives. Pakistani women are not goats, and no one owns them. Get used to it poochie.
Urstruly, Are you pretending to be dumb? There’s no need for that. What difference does it make if women of their family run or not? Not all Mullah’s would like to marry their 6 year old girl off to a 60 year old man either, so shove it. Every woman is born with a pussy, and your Mullahs seem to have reduced human and civil rights down to a sight of a pussy. They can shove their Islam up their ass and get the freck out of people’s lives. Pakistani women are not goats, and no one owns them. Get used to it poochie.
#4 Posted by Urstruly on April 25, 2005 8:28:17 am
Re: # 3
Yes sir, that is the kind of enthusiasm I am talking about. All I asked was that those gentlemen named in my post should bring out their own women first with the kind of enthusiasm you show for yours.
Frankly, I just want to see if these people are making a chtiya out of us or not - just because their foreign masters told so. My skepticism is not baseless. Historically, these very people used to swing wives in key clubs during Ayub, Yehya, and Bhutto era because their masters were doing the same. In zia era they suddenly became modest saint because their masters told them to and now they are after our women because their masters have put new demands upon them. Practice what you preach, is all I am asking.
Yes sir, that is the kind of enthusiasm I am talking about. All I asked was that those gentlemen named in my post should bring out their own women first with the kind of enthusiasm you show for yours.
Frankly, I just want to see if these people are making a chtiya out of us or not - just because their foreign masters told so. My skepticism is not baseless. Historically, these very people used to swing wives in key clubs during Ayub, Yehya, and Bhutto era because their masters were doing the same. In zia era they suddenly became modest saint because their masters told them to and now they are after our women because their masters have put new demands upon them. Practice what you preach, is all I am asking.
#5 Posted by Kulharee on April 25, 2005 8:55:53 am
Re: # 4
It`s OK, you missed the point. Explain to me, what does women competing in an event has to do with what Mushy or his company hold dear? Do you mean to say that women should need a permission of the government for such mundane stuff as running?
OK, what about being able to breath? Is that OK?
It`s OK, you missed the point. Explain to me, what does women competing in an event has to do with what Mushy or his company hold dear? Do you mean to say that women should need a permission of the government for such mundane stuff as running?
OK, what about being able to breath? Is that OK?
#6 Posted by kaurasach on April 25, 2005 9:13:05 am
#3,
Kulharee did some good chopping. he he.
Ursfalsely, did have one point albeit pointed in the wrong direction. The muslas hide their women (`sisters`) behind burqa and come to oggle the Kafir women. There was a article about how Kailash women are harassed by starved muslas.
One such musla wanted to meet a kafir`s `family`. The kafir knew muslas intentions. He responded, first the musla should introduce his `family`. The face of musla turned bright red with 50% shame and 50% anger.
Kulharee did some good chopping. he he.
Ursfalsely, did have one point albeit pointed in the wrong direction. The muslas hide their women (`sisters`) behind burqa and come to oggle the Kafir women. There was a article about how Kailash women are harassed by starved muslas.
One such musla wanted to meet a kafir`s `family`. The kafir knew muslas intentions. He responded, first the musla should introduce his `family`. The face of musla turned bright red with 50% shame and 50% anger.
#7 Posted by vertex on April 25, 2005 9:22:11 am
cayenne,
FYI although Saudi links to Pakland were very much true during the Zia era, Pakistan`s main financier (read: pimp de jour) now days are Western.
Kulharee,
Muslims, men or women, don`t need assh-les for defenders. So you can take your perverse and ignorant views on our relgion and stuff it up your own ass poochie.
FYI although Saudi links to Pakland were very much true during the Zia era, Pakistan`s main financier (read: pimp de jour) now days are Western.
Kulharee,
Muslims, men or women, don`t need assh-les for defenders. So you can take your perverse and ignorant views on our relgion and stuff it up your own ass poochie.
#8 Posted by Kulharee on April 25, 2005 10:43:47 am
Re: # 7
Vertex… what does running have to do with your religion? Do you mean moving legs may irritate it? Is that what you think of your religion? In that case, may be women runners should be required to wear full-body undies (and not thongs) so your religion is safe, and men runners should wear cups over their merchandize so your religion is intact from violent shakes that running may cause. I feel for you.
Vertex… what does running have to do with your religion? Do you mean moving legs may irritate it? Is that what you think of your religion? In that case, may be women runners should be required to wear full-body undies (and not thongs) so your religion is safe, and men runners should wear cups over their merchandize so your religion is intact from violent shakes that running may cause. I feel for you.
#9 Posted by vertex on April 25, 2005 11:52:56 am
Kulharee,
Blah blah blah. Where the hell do you see me defending the mullah? Put your rubber sword away and stop playing the role of the Knight in Shining armor. Muslims, and Muslim women in particular, really don`t need your kind of ``protection``.
Insofar as women running in public with shorts on...duh...*public*. The conflict was obvious. A similar question could have been asked as to what the big deal was if the women ran inside a stadium. There`s no real practical reason to have it outside. I think you`re clever enough to recognize a battle over access to public spaces and the rules that govern it. If running around in your undies doesn`t bug you, I think you`re also clever enough to see how it could bother others. The bottom line, though, is that it really doesn`t matter what YOU think about this matter - nor I for that matter - as we`re not an immediate part of that society.
Blah blah blah. Where the hell do you see me defending the mullah? Put your rubber sword away and stop playing the role of the Knight in Shining armor. Muslims, and Muslim women in particular, really don`t need your kind of ``protection``.
Insofar as women running in public with shorts on...duh...*public*. The conflict was obvious. A similar question could have been asked as to what the big deal was if the women ran inside a stadium. There`s no real practical reason to have it outside. I think you`re clever enough to recognize a battle over access to public spaces and the rules that govern it. If running around in your undies doesn`t bug you, I think you`re also clever enough to see how it could bother others. The bottom line, though, is that it really doesn`t matter what YOU think about this matter - nor I for that matter - as we`re not an immediate part of that society.
#10 Posted by Kulharee on April 25, 2005 12:10:18 pm
Re: # 9
Well Vertex, if you are concerned about nuisance in “public” places or spaces, can you please have those morons stop blaring nonsense out of speakers so loud so early in the morning? Nashay ka satyanass kar daytay haiN.
Where did you see me defend anyone or not defend anyone? You can defend whom you want and all you want. I just wanted to tell you that Pakistani women who want to run, or compete in any athletic activity, shouldn’t (don’t) need your or anyone else’s permission.
And stop acting as a self appointed spokesperson of muslim men and muslim women.
Well Vertex, if you are concerned about nuisance in “public” places or spaces, can you please have those morons stop blaring nonsense out of speakers so loud so early in the morning? Nashay ka satyanass kar daytay haiN.
Where did you see me defend anyone or not defend anyone? You can defend whom you want and all you want. I just wanted to tell you that Pakistani women who want to run, or compete in any athletic activity, shouldn’t (don’t) need your or anyone else’s permission.
And stop acting as a self appointed spokesperson of muslim men and muslim women.
#11 Posted by Romair on April 25, 2005 12:37:02 pm
I think there is a simple solution to all of this:
Let the women in Pakistan make the rules and laws related to women in Pakistan, both from the religious and secular side. Let them decide what is a proper dress and let them decide what women should do and not do.
The general argument used by men is that they are concerned about the well-being of women in Pakistan, due to which they are pushing their views. Why not let the women decide, for themselves, what is in their own well-being?
In a conservative and religious society like Pakistan, women will always be objectified, from both sides. The religious brigade will use women to push their agenda by locking them in their rooms. And the anti-religious brigade will attach the progress of women with displaying their bodies (or body parts).
As long as it is the religious and anti-religious women fighting it out between each other, regarding what women should do, things will be ok for women. However, if the men step in to the debate, from either side, women as a whole, will suffer, regardless of who wins the debate.............
Let the women in Pakistan make the rules and laws related to women in Pakistan, both from the religious and secular side. Let them decide what is a proper dress and let them decide what women should do and not do.
The general argument used by men is that they are concerned about the well-being of women in Pakistan, due to which they are pushing their views. Why not let the women decide, for themselves, what is in their own well-being?
In a conservative and religious society like Pakistan, women will always be objectified, from both sides. The religious brigade will use women to push their agenda by locking them in their rooms. And the anti-religious brigade will attach the progress of women with displaying their bodies (or body parts).
As long as it is the religious and anti-religious women fighting it out between each other, regarding what women should do, things will be ok for women. However, if the men step in to the debate, from either side, women as a whole, will suffer, regardless of who wins the debate.............
#12 Posted by vertex on April 25, 2005 1:02:40 pm
Kulharee,
``Well Vertex, if you are concerned about nuisance in “public” places or spaces, can you please have those morons stop blaring nonsense out of speakers so loud so early in the morning? Nashay ka satyanass kar daytay haiN.``
Well jee, if it pisses you off so much I don`t know. I kinda like it then...the fact is, loud public pronouncement of faiths (yes, even in the wee hours of the morn) are typical in India from all faith groups. That battle, if it ever was fought, was settleed a long time ago.
``Where did you see me defend anyone or not defend anyone? You can defend whom you want and all you want. I just wanted to tell you that Pakistani women who want to run, or compete in any athletic activity, shouldn’t (don’t) need your or anyone else’s permission.``
Apparently they do, and as for the shouldn`t bit...I agree to a degree. I won`t be supporting nude marathons anytime soon. And to be honest, I`m not a libertarian so it`s useless to get on a slippery slope with me. Basically, I support the right to impose a dress code, although I despise the lengths the ignorant mullahs would go. A happy solution for me would be to a) have the marathon on private property and b) have the police kick the snot out of all the MMA protesters.
``And stop acting as a self appointed spokesperson of muslim men and muslim women.``
Take a poll bud, and find out for yourself. I`m merely speaking the obvious.
``Well Vertex, if you are concerned about nuisance in “public” places or spaces, can you please have those morons stop blaring nonsense out of speakers so loud so early in the morning? Nashay ka satyanass kar daytay haiN.``
Well jee, if it pisses you off so much I don`t know. I kinda like it then...the fact is, loud public pronouncement of faiths (yes, even in the wee hours of the morn) are typical in India from all faith groups. That battle, if it ever was fought, was settleed a long time ago.
``Where did you see me defend anyone or not defend anyone? You can defend whom you want and all you want. I just wanted to tell you that Pakistani women who want to run, or compete in any athletic activity, shouldn’t (don’t) need your or anyone else’s permission.``
Apparently they do, and as for the shouldn`t bit...I agree to a degree. I won`t be supporting nude marathons anytime soon. And to be honest, I`m not a libertarian so it`s useless to get on a slippery slope with me. Basically, I support the right to impose a dress code, although I despise the lengths the ignorant mullahs would go. A happy solution for me would be to a) have the marathon on private property and b) have the police kick the snot out of all the MMA protesters.
``And stop acting as a self appointed spokesperson of muslim men and muslim women.``
Take a poll bud, and find out for yourself. I`m merely speaking the obvious.
#13 Posted by Kulharee on April 25, 2005 1:19:24 pm
Re: # 12
Vertex
Not really…. Eskplane two things to me: (1) what the hell in the world India has got to do with this? (2) What gives anyone any right over what kinda shorts one wears for running? I doubt that anyone will run naked or in shorts that show butt crack. At least not for a while. It is funny you want to take poll in a place where opinion are expressed by holding gun to one’s head. Next time you see someone running with shorts that you don`t like, go and hide in your nearest Mosque.
Beena Ji… In the midst of all this friendly debate between the civilized and the 7th century Bedouin Arabs, I forgot to say how sad it made me to read your article. It is beautifully written and it communicates hope.
Vertex
Not really…. Eskplane two things to me: (1) what the hell in the world India has got to do with this? (2) What gives anyone any right over what kinda shorts one wears for running? I doubt that anyone will run naked or in shorts that show butt crack. At least not for a while. It is funny you want to take poll in a place where opinion are expressed by holding gun to one’s head. Next time you see someone running with shorts that you don`t like, go and hide in your nearest Mosque.
Beena Ji… In the midst of all this friendly debate between the civilized and the 7th century Bedouin Arabs, I forgot to say how sad it made me to read your article. It is beautifully written and it communicates hope.
#14 Posted by cayenne on April 25, 2005 1:21:44 pm
##10 by Kulharee on April 25, 2005 12:10pm PT
Re: # 9
And stop acting as a self appointed spokesperson of muslim men and muslim women.
>>>>>>So wise.I hope ``vertex` reads this before he/she continues to make an a&se of himself.
Re: # 9
And stop acting as a self appointed spokesperson of muslim men and muslim women.
>>>>>>So wise.I hope ``vertex` reads this before he/she continues to make an a&se of himself.
#15 Posted by HisExcellency on April 25, 2005 3:41:47 pm
The MMA may be wrong on the religion column, but their stance on the marathon is correct. Our society is very conservative and takes pride in these conservative Islamic values. We should accept those aspects of Western culture that are compatible with our religious and cultural values... and reject those that don`t. This is the essence of an Islamic society.
Why was Punjab govt even thinking of holding an outdoor marathon with women athletes in Gujranwala, D.G.Khan and Sargodha!! Lahore is much more liberal than rest of Punjab. But smaller cities of Punjab are very conservative.
Is the marathon supposed to be a sports event? Or is it a symbol of ``Western liberalism``? If it was the former, then it could easily be organized inside a stadium. But if this marathon was a symbol of Western liberalism, the MMA was justified in opposing it.
Why was Punjab govt even thinking of holding an outdoor marathon with women athletes in Gujranwala, D.G.Khan and Sargodha!! Lahore is much more liberal than rest of Punjab. But smaller cities of Punjab are very conservative.
Is the marathon supposed to be a sports event? Or is it a symbol of ``Western liberalism``? If it was the former, then it could easily be organized inside a stadium. But if this marathon was a symbol of Western liberalism, the MMA was justified in opposing it.
#16 Posted by HisExcellency on April 25, 2005 3:53:10 pm
#11 by Romair
``As long as it is the religious and anti-religious women fighting it out between each other, regarding what women should do, things will be ok for women``
This would be a workable solution. Perhaps a Parliamentary Committee on Women`s Affairs comprising women legislators from PPP, MMA, PML-Q and other parties should decide on such matters. This will ensure that a consensus decision is made, instead of a decree from the MMA or the President.
``As long as it is the religious and anti-religious women fighting it out between each other, regarding what women should do, things will be ok for women``
This would be a workable solution. Perhaps a Parliamentary Committee on Women`s Affairs comprising women legislators from PPP, MMA, PML-Q and other parties should decide on such matters. This will ensure that a consensus decision is made, instead of a decree from the MMA or the President.
#17 Posted by Saj1981 on April 25, 2005 4:12:09 pm
It is really a joke that in this day and age, adult women are not able to run in a bloody marathon. Pakistan really should look at where the nation is headed if things this inane are causing a nationwide commotion. For god`s sake its not like women are starting nudist camps around the major cities are they....bloody running..if that gets the mullahs all hot and bothered...f*** them could and should be the national attitude from the ``silent majority``
#18 Posted by hamidm2 on April 25, 2005 4:21:08 pm
Re: # 15
excellency,
......... a marathon is a sports event - they even have it in the olympics ........ for those of us who have tried running a few miles, it is an amazing feat of human endurance - there is nothing more fascinating than the last few miles of a well contested race .........
............ mullahs should stick to greco-roman wrestling with young boys from the madrassas - a sport they have mastered ........
#19 Posted by vertex on April 25, 2005 4:46:40 pm
Kulharee,
``(1) what the hell in the world India has got to do with this?````
LOL, you tell me, you`re the one bringin it up.
``What gives anyone any right over what kinda shorts one wears for running?``
In public spaces, most societies regulate what one can and can`t wear. Period.
``I doubt that anyone will run naked or in shorts that show butt crack.``
Ahem..er...are we now officially on the slippery slope?
``It is funny you want to take poll in a place where opinion are expressed by holding gun to one’s head.``
Don`t know about that. This could apply more to us Indian muslims....say the wrong thing and you can see your family burnt at the stake by a mob of Hindu freakazoids.
``Next time you see someone running with shorts that you don`t like, go and hide in your nearest Mosque.``
Why?
``(1) what the hell in the world India has got to do with this?````
LOL, you tell me, you`re the one bringin it up.
``What gives anyone any right over what kinda shorts one wears for running?``
In public spaces, most societies regulate what one can and can`t wear. Period.
``I doubt that anyone will run naked or in shorts that show butt crack.``
Ahem..er...are we now officially on the slippery slope?
``It is funny you want to take poll in a place where opinion are expressed by holding gun to one’s head.``
Don`t know about that. This could apply more to us Indian muslims....say the wrong thing and you can see your family burnt at the stake by a mob of Hindu freakazoids.
``Next time you see someone running with shorts that you don`t like, go and hide in your nearest Mosque.``
Why?
#20 Posted by MaheshG2 on April 25, 2005 5:04:50 pm
Don`t know about that. This could apply more to us Indian muslims....say the wrong thing and you can see your family burnt at the stake by a mob of Hindu freakazoids.
Are you saying liberal Muslims are safer in Pakistan than in India?
In public spaces, most societies regulate what one can and can`t wear. Period.
Would you still be arguing in a similar manner if all men are ordered to wear only salwar kameez?
Are you saying liberal Muslims are safer in Pakistan than in India?
In public spaces, most societies regulate what one can and can`t wear. Period.
Would you still be arguing in a similar manner if all men are ordered to wear only salwar kameez?
#21 Posted by Ashutosh_Gandhi on April 25, 2005 5:24:05 pm
In all sports there are also dress code. So, no one was going to run in a bikini. Its a sad for women rights and liberties that people were waiting outside the stadium to shoot if athletes might venture out.
Its an extremely pathetic move by MMA.
Its an extremely pathetic move by MMA.
#22 Posted by Prashant123 on April 25, 2005 5:42:20 pm
``Don`t know about that. This could apply more to us Indian muslims....say the wrong thing and you can see your family burnt at the stake by a mob of Hindu freakazoids.``
Could please elaborate on what sort of `wrong things` would a muslim in India would have to say to risk getting burnt at the stake by a mob of Hindu freakazoids ?
Could please elaborate on what sort of `wrong things` would a muslim in India would have to say to risk getting burnt at the stake by a mob of Hindu freakazoids ?
#23 Posted by Prashant123 on April 25, 2005 5:42:52 pm
``Don`t know about that. This could apply more to us Indian muslims....say the wrong thing and you can see your family burnt at the stake by a mob of Hindu freakazoids.``
Could you please elaborate on what sort of `wrong things` would a muslim in India would have to say to risk getting burnt at the stake by a mob of Hindu freakazoids ?
Could you please elaborate on what sort of `wrong things` would a muslim in India would have to say to risk getting burnt at the stake by a mob of Hindu freakazoids ?
#24 Posted by vertex on April 25, 2005 5:51:15 pm
Prashant123,
It doesn`t take much apparently, for example living in the wrong neighborhood when an alleged incident involving Musilms half way across the country.
MaheshG2,
Have no idea. But then, liberal Muslims weren`t the ones being burnt alive.
``Would you still be arguing in a similar manner if all men are ordered to wear only salwar kameez? ``
Sure, why not?
``In all sports there are also dress code. So, no one was going to run in a bikini.``
At the last olympics they were pretty much wearing bikinis. Nominal difference...
``Its a sad for women rights and liberties that people were waiting outside the stadium to shoot if athletes might venture out.``
Very true! And for this reason, the police should have cracked down HARD.
It doesn`t take much apparently, for example living in the wrong neighborhood when an alleged incident involving Musilms half way across the country.
MaheshG2,
Have no idea. But then, liberal Muslims weren`t the ones being burnt alive.
``Would you still be arguing in a similar manner if all men are ordered to wear only salwar kameez? ``
Sure, why not?
``In all sports there are also dress code. So, no one was going to run in a bikini.``
At the last olympics they were pretty much wearing bikinis. Nominal difference...
``Its a sad for women rights and liberties that people were waiting outside the stadium to shoot if athletes might venture out.``
Very true! And for this reason, the police should have cracked down HARD.
#25 Posted by Prashant123 on April 25, 2005 5:55:06 pm
Vertex..too bad man. My heartfelt sympathies. But..that is why Pakistan was created. Why not go there ? Not just you , but the whole lot of you. No more hindu freakazoids to worry about then....
#26 Posted by vertex on April 25, 2005 6:02:52 pm
prashant123,
If you can`t deliver us security, YOU will just have to carve out another nation which will safeguard the supremacist rights of the bigoted mutant Hindu freakazoids. Normal, and respectable Hindus (read: the vast, vast Majority) will stay behind with the real India.
We stayed behind becuse we believed in the idea of India, or at least were not swayed by the smoke and mirrors of TNT. Are you saying the pakis were right?
If you can`t deliver us security, YOU will just have to carve out another nation which will safeguard the supremacist rights of the bigoted mutant Hindu freakazoids. Normal, and respectable Hindus (read: the vast, vast Majority) will stay behind with the real India.
We stayed behind becuse we believed in the idea of India, or at least were not swayed by the smoke and mirrors of TNT. Are you saying the pakis were right?
#27 Posted by khurram on April 25, 2005 6:05:11 pm
Just to clarify the issue, I don`t believe any of the women were planning to run in shorts.
I didn`t see any reference to dress code in the MMA objections. Original objection was against women running in a `mixed` marathon.
Later objections were simply against women running in public.
I didn`t see any reference to dress code in the MMA objections. Original objection was against women running in a `mixed` marathon.
Later objections were simply against women running in public.
#28 Posted by vertex on April 25, 2005 6:07:03 pm
khurram,
Hmm...then this begs the question why the police didn`t crack some MMA skulls....probably too busy soliciting `protection` money....
Hmm...then this begs the question why the police didn`t crack some MMA skulls....probably too busy soliciting `protection` money....
#29 Posted by hamidm2 on April 25, 2005 6:09:34 pm
..........the mullahs wanted these women dead because they brought home olympic gold and made them feel inadequate :
#30 Posted by harimau on April 25, 2005 6:34:57 pm
Why aren`t Pak men lowering their gazes as advised to do in the presence of women?
#31 Posted by Romair on April 25, 2005 7:52:59 pm
During one of the World Cup soccer tournaments, Iran was to play the USA. A match that Iran eventually won. Iranis are passionate about soccer, much like Pakistanis are about cricket. Somewhere during that same time, an Irani squad in the Olympics had stated that they would not follow a female flag holder in the opening ceremony.
So an interviewer asked some Iranis on the street about women and sports and shorts etc. Then he asked them, strictly speaking, men aren`t allowed to wear shorts, under Islam either (which they aren`t). So how come they let their soccer team wear shorts. The Iranis laughed and replied that for soccer we can make an exception.........
I come from a family of hard-working but very frustrated squash players. My father played it his whole life, but wasn`t very good. I played like crazy (even on Eids) and actually won a few tournaments, but wasn`t too good beyond that either. Now I am betting everything on my yet-to-be-born daughter. She will have to pull out the family name from the humiliating dustbin of squash history.........I have squash rackets of different sizes already purchased......one for each three years of growth.......She doesn`t know what she is in for, when she steps onto this earth.........I hope she has a better drop shot than her dad and more stamina than her grand-dad........Now is she going to wear shorts, pants, track suit or shalwar qameez? Depends on which country she is playing in and who happens to be the President of Pakistan at the time, I guess........
So an interviewer asked some Iranis on the street about women and sports and shorts etc. Then he asked them, strictly speaking, men aren`t allowed to wear shorts, under Islam either (which they aren`t). So how come they let their soccer team wear shorts. The Iranis laughed and replied that for soccer we can make an exception.........
I come from a family of hard-working but very frustrated squash players. My father played it his whole life, but wasn`t very good. I played like crazy (even on Eids) and actually won a few tournaments, but wasn`t too good beyond that either. Now I am betting everything on my yet-to-be-born daughter. She will have to pull out the family name from the humiliating dustbin of squash history.........I have squash rackets of different sizes already purchased......one for each three years of growth.......She doesn`t know what she is in for, when she steps onto this earth.........I hope she has a better drop shot than her dad and more stamina than her grand-dad........Now is she going to wear shorts, pants, track suit or shalwar qameez? Depends on which country she is playing in and who happens to be the President of Pakistan at the time, I guess........
#32 Posted by Romair on April 25, 2005 8:10:11 pm
The most successful desis in US sports are two Pakistani-American females. I don`t know of any other desis who are ranked no. 1 in any sport in the USA (or anywhere else in the West). There was an Indian gymnast who was part of the gold medal winning USA Olympic team. But she was not ranked no. 1 in anything.
For those who may not know, for the past eight to ten years or so, USA women`s squash has been dominated by two Pakistan-American sisters named Latasha Khan and Shabana Khan. Latasha is a six-time USA champion, and ranked 20th in the world. Shabana, her elder sister, is ranked 24th in the world. They are the Venus Williams and Serena Williams of US squash. They are coached by their father Yusuf Khan of the Pakistani Khan squash family........
Interestingly, their second or third cousin, Carla Khan, plays for Pakistan. She is the Pakistani women`s champion and ranked 22nd in world women`s squash. This makes her ranking significantly higher than where Sania Mirza (ranked 73rd in the world) is ranked in world tennis, by the way But for some reason, people in Pakistan aren`t going ga-ga over Carla Khan, like they are over Sania Mirza in India.........
Now which one of them wears what. Latasha and Shabana (I think I may have seen her playing once, at a club) both wear the tennis skirt. Carla wears a track suit bottom. Although, in this picture she is wearing a skirt, also. http://www.horizon-sport.com/wb/wb1/wispa/ranking/4402.htm
Pakistan in neither Saudi Arabia nor USA, for sportswomen. So, here is my theory: Men in Pakistan will continue to object to women in sports. However, if one of the women ever wins a gold medal in the Olympics, or the Cricket world cup, all will be forgetten (like the soccer players in Iran), and they will be hailed as heroes (or heroines)............
P.S. the highest score in women`s test cricket is also by a Pakistani named Kiran Baluch, who is the star batsman (or batswomen) of the infant Pakistan cricket team..............
For those who may not know, for the past eight to ten years or so, USA women`s squash has been dominated by two Pakistan-American sisters named Latasha Khan and Shabana Khan. Latasha is a six-time USA champion, and ranked 20th in the world. Shabana, her elder sister, is ranked 24th in the world. They are the Venus Williams and Serena Williams of US squash. They are coached by their father Yusuf Khan of the Pakistani Khan squash family........
Interestingly, their second or third cousin, Carla Khan, plays for Pakistan. She is the Pakistani women`s champion and ranked 22nd in world women`s squash. This makes her ranking significantly higher than where Sania Mirza (ranked 73rd in the world) is ranked in world tennis, by the way But for some reason, people in Pakistan aren`t going ga-ga over Carla Khan, like they are over Sania Mirza in India.........
Now which one of them wears what. Latasha and Shabana (I think I may have seen her playing once, at a club) both wear the tennis skirt. Carla wears a track suit bottom. Although, in this picture she is wearing a skirt, also. http://www.horizon-sport.com/wb/wb1/wispa/ranking/4402.htm
Pakistan in neither Saudi Arabia nor USA, for sportswomen. So, here is my theory: Men in Pakistan will continue to object to women in sports. However, if one of the women ever wins a gold medal in the Olympics, or the Cricket world cup, all will be forgetten (like the soccer players in Iran), and they will be hailed as heroes (or heroines)............
P.S. the highest score in women`s test cricket is also by a Pakistani named Kiran Baluch, who is the star batsman (or batswomen) of the infant Pakistan cricket team..............
#33 Posted by BeeJay on April 25, 2005 8:44:05 pm
Ms. Sarwar:
Thank you for this article, as well as other articles that you have written in similar vein, to highlight concerns for Pakistani women`s struggle for what in most parts of the world would be considered very natural, fundamental rights!
Beej.
#34 Posted by vivek on April 25, 2005 8:48:38 pm
Romair,
While I appreciate the performance of Pakistani women in squash, I would like to point out that squash and tennis are not comparable. Tennis enjoys far greater popularity and hence is more competitive.
While I appreciate the performance of Pakistani women in squash, I would like to point out that squash and tennis are not comparable. Tennis enjoys far greater popularity and hence is more competitive.
#35 Posted by rozaiba on April 25, 2005 10:59:22 pm
Re: # 15
HisEx:
Your arguments are rather lame. Though I dislike these Fauji chamcha governments, there are plenty of sensible things the PML-Q has done in the Punjab at least. I suppose if one has a blazing predecessor as Shahbaz Sharif, you’d have to be on your toes. Pervez Elahi has been on his toes for the most part. Yes, stuff like caricature grand-prix rallies, marathons, and mini-marathons may not really be ‘development’ material directly, but it does help in image building.
Ask any investor: what is Pakistan’s biggest problem other than having Faujiz pissing on the constitution and acting like the ultimate rulers? It is the image problem.
And Punjab isn’t the part of the Pakhtunistan belt. It has emerging urban centers where women are encouraged to work and participate in daily life – by choice as well as by urban economic compulsions. How can you shun this evolution of urban life by showing ‘understanding’ of MMA’s position?
That you support the MMA’s basis for vigilante action reflects your misconstrued ideas. Please seek help.
HisEx:
Your arguments are rather lame. Though I dislike these Fauji chamcha governments, there are plenty of sensible things the PML-Q has done in the Punjab at least. I suppose if one has a blazing predecessor as Shahbaz Sharif, you’d have to be on your toes. Pervez Elahi has been on his toes for the most part. Yes, stuff like caricature grand-prix rallies, marathons, and mini-marathons may not really be ‘development’ material directly, but it does help in image building.
Ask any investor: what is Pakistan’s biggest problem other than having Faujiz pissing on the constitution and acting like the ultimate rulers? It is the image problem.
And Punjab isn’t the part of the Pakhtunistan belt. It has emerging urban centers where women are encouraged to work and participate in daily life – by choice as well as by urban economic compulsions. How can you shun this evolution of urban life by showing ‘understanding’ of MMA’s position?
That you support the MMA’s basis for vigilante action reflects your misconstrued ideas. Please seek help.
#37 Posted by cayenne on April 26, 2005 1:15:36 am
Re: # 32
Squash champions???.Tee hee.I shall share this anecdote with my colleagues at the cafeteria.We do need a laugh today.Come on.Gimme more.
Squash champions???.Tee hee.I shall share this anecdote with my colleagues at the cafeteria.We do need a laugh today.Come on.Gimme more.
#38 Posted by majumdar on April 26, 2005 4:14:19 am
Re: Romair #32
There is a reason why Sania Mirza`s 73rd rank is more creditable than Ms Khan`s 22. There are millions of women playing tennis, thousands on a competitive basis. On the other hand there are probably only 22 women playing squash. As an analogy you will admit that the world`s number 1 soccer player is a far more contender for the post of the greatest sportsman than the world`s no. 1 cricketer.
Regards
There is a reason why Sania Mirza`s 73rd rank is more creditable than Ms Khan`s 22. There are millions of women playing tennis, thousands on a competitive basis. On the other hand there are probably only 22 women playing squash. As an analogy you will admit that the world`s number 1 soccer player is a far more contender for the post of the greatest sportsman than the world`s no. 1 cricketer.
Regards
#39 Posted by harish_hyd on April 26, 2005 4:31:53 am
#38 by majumdar
LOL! Well said! You will come across more such gems from our resident Captain Clueless which in due course of time, you will learn to ignore.
As an aside, over the years he has been at pains to project the so-called ``Azad`` Kashmir as the ultimate heaven on Earth, but this report paints otherwise.
`Muzaffarabad visit became a nightmare`
LOL! Well said! You will come across more such gems from our resident Captain Clueless which in due course of time, you will learn to ignore.
As an aside, over the years he has been at pains to project the so-called ``Azad`` Kashmir as the ultimate heaven on Earth, but this report paints otherwise.
`Muzaffarabad visit became a nightmare`
#40 Posted by majumdar on April 26, 2005 5:56:29 am
Re: # 39
I have been following chowk for quite some time although it is my first or second post. I am quite used to Romair`s gems some of which have been periodically highlighted by arjun_m. I am however a great admirer of Romair. He is one of the few posters who makes his point without resorting to abuse, invectives or needless sarcasm. He is one of the most liberal and secular minded persons on chowk, although he will be shocked at this description.
I have been following chowk for quite some time although it is my first or second post. I am quite used to Romair`s gems some of which have been periodically highlighted by arjun_m. I am however a great admirer of Romair. He is one of the few posters who makes his point without resorting to abuse, invectives or needless sarcasm. He is one of the most liberal and secular minded persons on chowk, although he will be shocked at this description.
#41 Posted by arjun_m on April 26, 2005 6:33:01 am
This is the side effect of feeding the jihadi snake to create jihadi cannon fodder to serve your geo-political wet-dreams..
Step 1: Encourage fundamentalist Islam in your society.
Step 2: When the proportion of fundamentalist Islamists have reached critical mass, you`ll eventually get enough cannon fodder to send into Kashmir and Afghanistan.
Step 3: Brag about bleeding India and controlling Afghanistan via jihadis created in step 3.
Step 4: 9/11, pakis with t-shirts getting deported. jihad becomes uncool...
Step 5: Act surprised when you see that osscurantists like the MMA control half of Pakistan...
Step 1: Encourage fundamentalist Islam in your society.
Step 2: When the proportion of fundamentalist Islamists have reached critical mass, you`ll eventually get enough cannon fodder to send into Kashmir and Afghanistan.
Step 3: Brag about bleeding India and controlling Afghanistan via jihadis created in step 3.
Step 4: 9/11, pakis with t-shirts getting deported. jihad becomes uncool...
Step 5: Act surprised when you see that osscurantists like the MMA control half of Pakistan...
#42 Posted by arjun_m on April 26, 2005 6:44:11 am
#2 by Urstruly on April 25, 2005 6:09am PT
I would very much like to see Mushraf`s wife, his daughters, and his daughter in law as well as that of Chudri Shujaat`s and shoukat Aziz`z running in the knickers first. (apni nikaltay nahiN aur hamari dekhne aa jaatay haiN)
I can`t claim to know musharraf or aziz, but i`d think they have no interest in seeing your knickers...knots and all...
I would very much like to see Mushraf`s wife, his daughters, and his daughter in law as well as that of Chudri Shujaat`s and shoukat Aziz`z running in the knickers first. (apni nikaltay nahiN aur hamari dekhne aa jaatay haiN)
I can`t claim to know musharraf or aziz, but i`d think they have no interest in seeing your knickers...knots and all...
#43 Posted by arjun_m on April 26, 2005 6:55:46 am
#15 by HisExcellency on April 25, 2005 3:41pm PT
The MMA may be wrong on the religion column, but their stance on the marathon is correct. Our society is very conservative and takes pride in these conservative Islamic values.
the cat is out of the bag...the law that requires a women to produce 4 muslim witnesses to prove rape is Islamic...
The MMA may be wrong on the religion column, but their stance on the marathon is correct. Our society is very conservative and takes pride in these conservative Islamic values.
the cat is out of the bag...the law that requires a women to produce 4 muslim witnesses to prove rape is Islamic...
#44 Posted by Urstruly on April 26, 2005 7:00:11 am
OK enough discussion. Now could someone please tell me when can I see Musharaf`s, Shaukat`s, and shujat`s et al women in knickers running around in the city.
#45 Posted by Kulharee on April 26, 2005 7:17:10 am
Re: # 44
While their females (as if that’s the only way to identity women…. “their”) run, you might not get a chance to see them as you will be busy beating the hell out of your women (“your”) and keeping them on a leash. Beside, they will run past you so fast that you wont even get a good look at their boobs. You are better off checking what is available to you at home.
While their females (as if that’s the only way to identity women…. “their”) run, you might not get a chance to see them as you will be busy beating the hell out of your women (“your”) and keeping them on a leash. Beside, they will run past you so fast that you wont even get a good look at their boobs. You are better off checking what is available to you at home.
#46 Posted by Urstruly on April 26, 2005 7:24:31 am
Re: # 45
ooookay, so it means that, in fact, they DO want to see mine but wouldn`t show theirs. Why, is there a problem? Don`t their women need exercise? What about freedom and that ``breathing free`` thing?
ooookay, so it means that, in fact, they DO want to see mine but wouldn`t show theirs. Why, is there a problem? Don`t their women need exercise? What about freedom and that ``breathing free`` thing?
#47 Posted by Faruk on April 26, 2005 7:30:38 am
re : Romair # 11
“Let the women in Pakistan make the rules and laws related to women in Pakistan, both from the religious and secular side. Let them decide what is a proper dress and let them decide what women should do and not do.”
I have a better idea ….Let the women make laws for men,
That would be fun…
Regards,
Faruk
“Let the women in Pakistan make the rules and laws related to women in Pakistan, both from the religious and secular side. Let them decide what is a proper dress and let them decide what women should do and not do.”
I have a better idea ….Let the women make laws for men,
That would be fun…
Regards,
Faruk
#48 Posted by Kulharee on April 26, 2005 7:37:11 am
Re: # 46
Urstruly... What is this thing about Mine and Their? If that’s what your biggest concern is, YOUR should stay home. I didn’t know women were being forced to run. You learn something new every day.
If YOUR women are anything like your views. They should stay in.
Urstruly... What is this thing about Mine and Their? If that’s what your biggest concern is, YOUR should stay home. I didn’t know women were being forced to run. You learn something new every day.
If YOUR women are anything like your views. They should stay in.
#49 Posted by arjun_m on April 26, 2005 8:02:22 am
So the conclusion is this: Pakis want to put lipstick on the pig(improve their image) and yet deny that there is a pig...
This sounds like the paki version of the matrix....there is no spoon becomes there is no extremism....
This sounds like the paki version of the matrix....there is no spoon becomes there is no extremism....
#50 Posted by jang on April 26, 2005 10:16:25 am
“Let the women in Pakistan make the rules and laws related to women in Pakistan, both from the religious and secular side. Let them decide what is a proper dress and let them decide what women should do and not do.”
Concept of separate electorates seems to be very organic.
Urstruly, are you sardar of a kabila, who will trade his ``females`` with other saradars such as Musharaff on a reciprocal basis?
Concept of separate electorates seems to be very organic.
Urstruly, are you sardar of a kabila, who will trade his ``females`` with other saradars such as Musharaff on a reciprocal basis?
#51 Posted by Urstruly on April 26, 2005 10:30:25 am
Re: # 50
jang
why do you ask? does your tribe has a shared pool of ``females``?
jang
why do you ask? does your tribe has a shared pool of ``females``?
#52 Posted by Romair on April 26, 2005 10:42:02 am
Urstruly #46: ``ooookay, so it means that, in fact, they DO want to see mine but wouldn`t show theirs``
How have you come to the conclusion that, ``they DO want to see mine?``
I am not sure if someone is forcing, ``your`` women to show themselves, or is specifically designing a system that would expose your women to them. So I don`t think, ``they`` specifically want to see yours...........
Just out of curiousity, do you play (or played) sports? Have you ever worn shorts? Strictly speaking, wearing shorts, in Islam, is forbidden, both for men and women. However, I have always found it odd that men can wear shorts in Pakistan to play sports, openly, but women cannot. Or in Iran for that matter. Or even in Saudi Arabia, which has a pretty good soccer team. Irani men wear tight mini-shorts and wrestle on TV. Pakistani boxers wear only shorts, and win Asian medals..........Do you think that should be banned...........
If you, yourself, have never worn shorts, outside your house, one can place your argument, somewhere. However, if you have, and do, wear shorts, then isn`t your argument in the same categary as someone benfiting from something, themselves, while simultaneously critiquing it............
How have you come to the conclusion that, ``they DO want to see mine?``
I am not sure if someone is forcing, ``your`` women to show themselves, or is specifically designing a system that would expose your women to them. So I don`t think, ``they`` specifically want to see yours...........
Just out of curiousity, do you play (or played) sports? Have you ever worn shorts? Strictly speaking, wearing shorts, in Islam, is forbidden, both for men and women. However, I have always found it odd that men can wear shorts in Pakistan to play sports, openly, but women cannot. Or in Iran for that matter. Or even in Saudi Arabia, which has a pretty good soccer team. Irani men wear tight mini-shorts and wrestle on TV. Pakistani boxers wear only shorts, and win Asian medals..........Do you think that should be banned...........
If you, yourself, have never worn shorts, outside your house, one can place your argument, somewhere. However, if you have, and do, wear shorts, then isn`t your argument in the same categary as someone benfiting from something, themselves, while simultaneously critiquing it............
#53 Posted by Romair on April 26, 2005 10:53:56 am
vivek #34: ``While I appreciate the performance of Pakistani women in squash, I would like to point out that squash and tennis are not comparable. Tennis enjoys far greater popularity and hence is more competitive.``
Tennis is definitely more competitive. However, there is still a big difference between being 73rd in the world and 22nd, regardless of the sport. A different league, all together.
I am not sure whether the hoopla, in India, over Sania Mirza has too much to do with her sports skills. There are other Indian women who have achieved much more, but never got half the press. One of the weightlifters won an Olympic medal. One of the Indian female relay teams in Athletics (a sport more popular than Tennis) is ranked in the top ten or so, in the world..............I am quite sure there must be a lot of Indian women who are ranked in the top 70s in quite a few sports. How many people know of them?
Usually, athletes get attention, much higher than their sporting skills, if they have something unique about them. Anna Kournikova never wins anything, but is famous because of her looks. Perhaps the unique thing about Sania Mirza is her religion and the fact that she is a female........
Tennis is definitely more competitive. However, there is still a big difference between being 73rd in the world and 22nd, regardless of the sport. A different league, all together.
I am not sure whether the hoopla, in India, over Sania Mirza has too much to do with her sports skills. There are other Indian women who have achieved much more, but never got half the press. One of the weightlifters won an Olympic medal. One of the Indian female relay teams in Athletics (a sport more popular than Tennis) is ranked in the top ten or so, in the world..............I am quite sure there must be a lot of Indian women who are ranked in the top 70s in quite a few sports. How many people know of them?
Usually, athletes get attention, much higher than their sporting skills, if they have something unique about them. Anna Kournikova never wins anything, but is famous because of her looks. Perhaps the unique thing about Sania Mirza is her religion and the fact that she is a female........
#54 Posted by Kulharee on April 26, 2005 10:58:06 am
Re: # 53
Romair, also Koudi… in my village near Sargodha and Mianwali, men play Koudi (Kabadee) and wear langoti (a little clothing that covers their butt crack and front - a thong like cover), but sometimes you can see their Tatay peeking through. Often times, females come to watch the match.
Romair, also Koudi… in my village near Sargodha and Mianwali, men play Koudi (Kabadee) and wear langoti (a little clothing that covers their butt crack and front - a thong like cover), but sometimes you can see their Tatay peeking through. Often times, females come to watch the match.
#56 Posted by concerned1 on April 26, 2005 12:07:56 pm
[...If you can`t deliver us security, YOU will just have to carve out another nation which will safeguard the supremacist rights of the bigoted mutant Hindu freakazoids...]
what you are saying is - if you can`t deliver us security, and don`t carve out another nation to safeguard your supremacist rights, WE will simply burn YOU alive alongwith YOUR women and children in a train.
besides, what recommendations do you have for the bigoted mutant muslim freakazoids? or these species don`t exist in india?
what you are saying is - if you can`t deliver us security, and don`t carve out another nation to safeguard your supremacist rights, WE will simply burn YOU alive alongwith YOUR women and children in a train.
besides, what recommendations do you have for the bigoted mutant muslim freakazoids? or these species don`t exist in india?
#57 Posted by jang on April 26, 2005 12:20:47 pm
#51 heh heh.. my tribe females will kick my behind red and send me begging to your kabila if i talk of sharing anything.. in my tribe one begs unconditionally.
#58 Posted by HisExcellency on April 26, 2005 12:31:12 pm
#35 by rozaiba
``stuff like caricature grand-prix rallies, marathons, and mini-marathons may not really be ‘development’ material directly, but it does help in image building.``
You are missing the point, rozaiba. Foreigners only visit Karachi, Lahore and Islamabad. The govt can organize ``mixed marathons`` in the posh localities of these cities, where majority of the residents are not going to object.
But what`s the point in holding these ``mixed marathons`` in Gujranwala, Sargodha and D.G. Khan when you already know that people in these cities are conservative??. It seems the Punjab govt embarked on a `cultural crusade` against the conservative residents of Gujranwala by holding the mixed marathon in that city.
Foreign investors are more respectful of our country`s religious and cultural sensitivies than our Pakistani ``liberal tsars``.
``stuff like caricature grand-prix rallies, marathons, and mini-marathons may not really be ‘development’ material directly, but it does help in image building.``
You are missing the point, rozaiba. Foreigners only visit Karachi, Lahore and Islamabad. The govt can organize ``mixed marathons`` in the posh localities of these cities, where majority of the residents are not going to object.
But what`s the point in holding these ``mixed marathons`` in Gujranwala, Sargodha and D.G. Khan when you already know that people in these cities are conservative??. It seems the Punjab govt embarked on a `cultural crusade` against the conservative residents of Gujranwala by holding the mixed marathon in that city.
Foreign investors are more respectful of our country`s religious and cultural sensitivies than our Pakistani ``liberal tsars``.
#59 Posted by concerned1 on April 26, 2005 12:35:25 pm
carving out not one but two nations specifically to safeguard the supremacist rights of the bigoted mutant muslim freakazoids did not make them disappear from india, so why would it work in the other case?
#60 Posted by cayenne on April 26, 2005 12:37:14 pm
You have to scroll down a bit.....but this is the only link i could find for india`s female weightlifting bronze winner at the 2000 Olympics.....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/low/olympics2000/other_sports/932038.stm
.......Whoa, i hope she isn`t a policewoman, `cause she sure is built like one.Imagine being pulled over by this one!!!....These are some comments by the lady in the same blurb....
``The magazine said I was overweight, drinking beer and eating too much chicken and cheese. Also, that I was getting old and was not serious about my training,`` she said.
``Let them ask me or my coach now if I was overweight - I have won a medal for India.``
...........`drinking beer and eating too much chicken!!``.....i love india...only in a country such as ours can you find the whole range of human experiences.....and we`re free to express ourselves any which way we want to!!!.........Aameeen!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/low/olympics2000/other_sports/932038.stm
.......Whoa, i hope she isn`t a policewoman, `cause she sure is built like one.Imagine being pulled over by this one!!!....These are some comments by the lady in the same blurb....
``The magazine said I was overweight, drinking beer and eating too much chicken and cheese. Also, that I was getting old and was not serious about my training,`` she said.
``Let them ask me or my coach now if I was overweight - I have won a medal for India.``
...........`drinking beer and eating too much chicken!!``.....i love india...only in a country such as ours can you find the whole range of human experiences.....and we`re free to express ourselves any which way we want to!!!.........Aameeen!
#61 Posted by vivek on April 26, 2005 12:55:13 pm
Romair,
I think tennis players in India seem to always get some popularity partly because many Indians like tennis. Sania Mirza has achieved the same level of publicity as Leander Paes did when he won the junior wimbledon. I remember both sportstar and india-today had him on their cover page. I think India really has a better chance of producing decent players in tennis compared to any individual sports. About weightlifting, the lack of publicity is unfortunate but its mostly because of bad handling by the IOC.
I think tennis players in India seem to always get some popularity partly because many Indians like tennis. Sania Mirza has achieved the same level of publicity as Leander Paes did when he won the junior wimbledon. I remember both sportstar and india-today had him on their cover page. I think India really has a better chance of producing decent players in tennis compared to any individual sports. About weightlifting, the lack of publicity is unfortunate but its mostly because of bad handling by the IOC.
#62 Posted by HisExcellency on April 26, 2005 1:02:14 pm
#18 by hamidm2
Next you will probably want a ``mixed decathalon`` in Pakistan in which the ladies switch from a marathon on the Mandi Bahauddin G.T. road... to cycling on the Jhang ring road... and finally slip into their swimsuits and swim across the Jhelum-Chashma link canal.
C`mon man, this is not France. It doesn`t have to be. Thre has got to be a less ridiculous way of improving Pakistan`s image. There was a professional boxer from Pakistan Army who won the bronze medal in 1988 Seoul Olympics. This pugilist didn`t wear shorts in the middle of Pindi`s saddar bazaar to practice for the big event. There are plenty of gymnasiums for this purpose. Why can`t women athletes practice inside gymnasiums and stadiums?
Next you will probably want a ``mixed decathalon`` in Pakistan in which the ladies switch from a marathon on the Mandi Bahauddin G.T. road... to cycling on the Jhang ring road... and finally slip into their swimsuits and swim across the Jhelum-Chashma link canal.
C`mon man, this is not France. It doesn`t have to be. Thre has got to be a less ridiculous way of improving Pakistan`s image. There was a professional boxer from Pakistan Army who won the bronze medal in 1988 Seoul Olympics. This pugilist didn`t wear shorts in the middle of Pindi`s saddar bazaar to practice for the big event. There are plenty of gymnasiums for this purpose. Why can`t women athletes practice inside gymnasiums and stadiums?
#63 Posted by Urstruly on April 26, 2005 1:18:07 pm
Re: # 52 Romair
First of all, under Islamic jurisprudence (as it is inferred from Qura`n and Hadith) the bare minimum for both men and women is specifically defined in no uncertain terms. For men the bare minimum (in jurists terminology it is called ``sattar`` meaning the `covered` or `hidden`.) is an area that starts right below the navel and goes up to right above the knee cap. Every Pakistani student in primary classes knows that. So men can wear shorts, without even wearing shirts. I have thus worn shorts. Rest of your post is based on your ignorance of this fact so I am ignoring it.
As for the issue of ``showing`` one`s woman is concerned it has a social aspect and then there is a philosophical aspect.
The social aspect is that this foreign ``custom`` is being forced upon us by a puppet regime at the behest of their foreign masters. That naturally creates a resistance in the minds of those people who are being forced upon with a value system that contradicts their own social and cultural norms and violates their value system. So it is very easy for the current regime, that has no political constituency among the very people they rule and have taken power by violating the highest law of the country at gunpoint, to find some testicle-kisser type people who would bring out their women to please their masters. There is no shortage of such people. A good number of such people is currently gathered around this regime. Keep in mind that these very people were running key clubs in pre- Zia era and became ``pious`` and devout Muslims in Zia era overnight; and now in this era they have become ``moderates``. Since they are in power, whatever they can force whatever they want upon society and that becomes the start of a norm in the society later (so as long as the regime doesn`t change). Such regimes, however, change overnight, and these testicle types change with it as well. However, that ``social evil`` that they started and took hold in the society in the previous regime does not change. That is one of the reasons that our ruling class feels so ``foreign`` in their own country and treat the rest of the country as their colony not as their own home.
The philosophical aspect is that, our value system is based on Islamic injunctions. While the social customs change from time to time and from place to place, the values remain intact. Whether we practice those values or not, but as long as we are Muslims we have those values. We may find million of excuses for not acting on them but whenever we violate or ignore a certain value deep inside our hearts we feel bad. This is the mussalman inside us; this is the `imaan` inside us. Having said that the system of values that Islam puts forth before us dictates certain decorum between the genders - certain modesty if you will – that in order to preserve the basic unit of any society i.e. family. It stresses immensely on maintaining the sanctity of relationships. Each family is like a brick in the wall it dictates; the wall is the society. The integrity of wall is not threatened even if few bricks become dislodged or broken, but when a large number of bricks fell off the wall, the wall collapses even with the faintest of threats. That is the reason there is no concept of ``individualism`` in Islam or Islamic society. We are all connected and every action we take has consequences not only for us but for those around us as well.
Therefore, the idea, ``those who want to do it should be allowed, and those who do not want to participate should not bother the others``, is impractical in Muslim society. Lets take an example, of strip clubs in Pakistan. One may argue that if a certain segment of the society wants to enjoy them then what is harm in doing that? Well, the question is that if society permits this arrangement then what is the guarantee that this certain segment of society will recruit the table dancers from among themselves only and not from wherever they can? The common sense suggests that they will recruit from wherever it would make more economic sense to them. So if you are a club owner and for some reason you cannot put your own sisters on the table, then you will try to get my sisters on the table. And if my sisters or I would resist then you would create an atmosphere and culture that would break my resistance. The show must go on, right. And what happens when a certain segment of society is engaged in an act that is considered norm by them but it is immoral and degrading for rest of the society. The laws of social dynamics dictate that these segments will try to influence each other – the result, the ``wall`` becomes weak. And hence, that is why, we should be very careful with `innovating`` and `introducing`` new norms in the society.
The people of Pakistan are not idiot ignoramuses or close-minded bigots. They have capacity to question; they question, the measure; they evaluate. They ask the question, what will be the consequences of this forced imposition of Western values upon them. They question where would it leave their society. They question whether these Western societies are that ``ideal`` that we should start mimicking them. They question, if these societies are so ideal, then why the basic unit of those societies – the family – is so disintegrated. If Western family structure is so ideal then why there is an 80-90% divorce rate among them. If these societies are so ideal then why 8 of every 10 children is illegitimate? If these societies are so ideal then why the woman in these societies can become the mistress of a man in the name of freedom and liberty but cannot have dignity of being a woman. If these societies are so ideal then why a woman is raped every 20 seconds? If these societies and their culture is so ideal then why in every minute of the day there is an honor killing of two woman by jealous boyfriends or husbands. Could anyone answer these questions, they ask. They ask why and how would we end up differently if we do the same exact things that West did to get to the point where their society is about to crumble and only thing that is keeping it intact so far is the blood money they loot from all over the world. No one can answer their questions. Those who are questioned can only have one answer ``you are closed minded bigots, so shut up and do whatever we tell you to do or else - daisy cutter``.
#64 Posted by jang on April 26, 2005 1:28:43 pm
i think urstruly, HisExcellency (and MMA) are right. its socially incongruent to have a marathon for women (in shorts) in Peshawar. Its OK to have it in a secluded Pindi club grounds, guarded by good-sepoys of Mangla Core.
#65 Posted by Netizen on April 26, 2005 2:14:41 pm
All this hangama for running in shorts? I have a propostition which can satisfy both the parties. Let the women run in burkhas, the only problem will be that it would be difficult to know who is leading/trailing, people will just have to wait till someone crosses the finishing line.
The other day I saw on Comedy channel how burkha wearing Iranian woman cops were jumping from building, handling the nunchuks ...Pakis can replicate this model in their cuntry too.
The other day I saw on Comedy channel how burkha wearing Iranian woman cops were jumping from building, handling the nunchuks ...Pakis can replicate this model in their cuntry too.
#66 Posted by Netizen on April 26, 2005 2:18:56 pm
Some time back an islamic country (Afghanistan during Taliban?) didn`t allow men to play soccer in shorts, the players were forced to wear long pants/trousers (?). It was a funny scene.
Urstruly and Romair:
What does Qura`n and Hadith say about playing soccer?
Urstruly and Romair:
What does Qura`n and Hadith say about playing soccer?
#67 Posted by vertex on April 26, 2005 2:20:08 pm
...fasinating...yet another account of trying to subvert an issue by reducing things to the most extreame view...
And as for the ``burkah`` wearing cops...unh...would you rather they wear bikinis? Duh...
#68 Posted by Netizen on April 26, 2005 2:42:01 pm
Re: # 67
``And as for the ``burkah`` wearing cops...unh...would you rather they wear bikinis? Duh... ``
I don`t care. I don`t hold an Iranian passport nor do I share the ideology. Its just a fact and Pakistan being an islamic country would not be averse to the idea.
``And as for the ``burkah`` wearing cops...unh...would you rather they wear bikinis? Duh... ``
I don`t care. I don`t hold an Iranian passport nor do I share the ideology. Its just a fact and Pakistan being an islamic country would not be averse to the idea.
#69 Posted by Netizen on April 26, 2005 2:43:34 pm
Re: # 67
``yet another account of trying to subvert an issue by reducing things ``
thats the extreme, running in a marathon in shorts has become an ``issue``
``yet another account of trying to subvert an issue by reducing things ``
thats the extreme, running in a marathon in shorts has become an ``issue``
#70 Posted by Netizen on April 26, 2005 2:47:06 pm
Re: # 67
``...would you rather they wear bikinis?``
in which part of the world women cops wear bikinis? You see them only in X-rated movies.
``...would you rather they wear bikinis?``
in which part of the world women cops wear bikinis? You see them only in X-rated movies.
#71 Posted by jang on April 26, 2005 2:54:48 pm
neti.. indian cops do wear saris. its local dress...in iran burkha is local dress. its that simple.
#72 Posted by vertex on April 26, 2005 2:56:04 pm
Netizen,
They don`t wear bikins, and that`s the point. Most cops I know are out in partial body armor in paramilitary style uniforms. The garb worn by the female cops in Iran differ little in terms of coverage and functionality than uniforms...in fact, the only draw back is that they probably can`t full-out sprint...but then 80% of the pot-belly cops here can`t either so...but in any case it`s for the Iranians to work it out....but of course it`s a covering so *gasp, shock, horror*....needless to say, they`d still kick your ass :-)
``thats the extreme, running in a marathon in shorts has become an ``issue````
No, the extreme is suggesting that objecting implies they should be running in bloody burkahs. Running a marathon in a conservative country in shorts is bound to cause controversy....
They don`t wear bikins, and that`s the point. Most cops I know are out in partial body armor in paramilitary style uniforms. The garb worn by the female cops in Iran differ little in terms of coverage and functionality than uniforms...in fact, the only draw back is that they probably can`t full-out sprint...but then 80% of the pot-belly cops here can`t either so...but in any case it`s for the Iranians to work it out....but of course it`s a covering so *gasp, shock, horror*....needless to say, they`d still kick your ass :-)
``thats the extreme, running in a marathon in shorts has become an ``issue````
No, the extreme is suggesting that objecting implies they should be running in bloody burkahs. Running a marathon in a conservative country in shorts is bound to cause controversy....
#73 Posted by Netizen on April 26, 2005 3:37:41 pm
Re: # 71
`` indian cops do wear saris. its local dress...in iran burkha is local dress.``
But that doesn`t mean a woman will do all kinds of things in the local dress. Indian women won`t run/swim in saris. The sight of ghost-like burkah clad woman jumping from building was indeed awesome though. I am wondering whether sari-wearing cops also do that. Also, the lower level cops wear sari whereas the officer class wear trousers.
`` indian cops do wear saris. its local dress...in iran burkha is local dress.``
But that doesn`t mean a woman will do all kinds of things in the local dress. Indian women won`t run/swim in saris. The sight of ghost-like burkah clad woman jumping from building was indeed awesome though. I am wondering whether sari-wearing cops also do that. Also, the lower level cops wear sari whereas the officer class wear trousers.
#74 Posted by jang on April 26, 2005 3:44:45 pm
inndian cops only need skills like
asking for a hafta
eating pan
scowling
all these can be done very well in saris ..who needs pants.
asking for a hafta
eating pan
scowling
all these can be done very well in saris ..who needs pants.
#75 Posted by Netizen on April 26, 2005 3:54:41 pm
Re: # 72
``...needless to say, they`d still kick your ass :-)``
Watching them skillfully handling the nunchuks, I wouldn`t dare them ;)
``No, the extreme is suggesting that objecting implies they should be running in bloody burkahs. Running a marathon in a conservative country in shorts is bound to cause controversy....``
I hope you didn`t take it seriously. It was just a satire.
``...needless to say, they`d still kick your ass :-)``
Watching them skillfully handling the nunchuks, I wouldn`t dare them ;)
``No, the extreme is suggesting that objecting implies they should be running in bloody burkahs. Running a marathon in a conservative country in shorts is bound to cause controversy....``
I hope you didn`t take it seriously. It was just a satire.
#76 Posted by Netizen on April 26, 2005 3:58:50 pm
I am quite sure, the pant-wearing cops outnumber the sari-wearing ones in this job
#77 Posted by Kulharee on April 26, 2005 6:11:53 pm
Re: # 72
Vertex (and yourtruly)... dickheads, why don’t you run whatever way you want, like Kuran and hadees squeezed in your ass, and let other decide how they want to run? Is that a good compromise or what? Nobody in most of Pakistan gives a shyt about what people like you think or believe, you can go and fk yourself.
Vertex (and yourtruly)... dickheads, why don’t you run whatever way you want, like Kuran and hadees squeezed in your ass, and let other decide how they want to run? Is that a good compromise or what? Nobody in most of Pakistan gives a shyt about what people like you think or believe, you can go and fk yourself.
#78 Posted by rozaiba on April 26, 2005 6:41:22 pm
Re: # 58
HisExcellency:
Actually you are missing the point. And it is because you probably don`t live in Pakistan.
As mentioned earlier, Punjab isn`t the Pakhtun belt where with the help of Americans and Faujiz the mullahs managed to engineer a victory. Cities like Gujranwala are industrial towns and are going through the SAME evolutionary process as other agrarian cities have gone through. This means woman will be participating in the public sphere. More not less.
Your comment on foreign investors only going to Lahore, Karachi, ISB was very immature. Lahore, Karachi, ISB only make up 15-20 percent of Pakistan`s population. But most terrorists - sectarian and otherwise - emerge from the cities you mentioned. The CONSERVATIVE centers. A foreigner isnt going to care whether Lahore, Karachi, ISB is in the tribal belt, or in Sipah-Sahab`s adda ie Jhang district.
Plus, asking the Punjab government to focus only on Lahore is not smart. That`s why you`re not a politician or a representative of the people (probably also why you prefer Fauji governments).
But you can see the clash of conservative and progressive values quite clearly.
Gujranwala has become the center of obscenity. I have no problems with that particularly since the obscenity is mostly due to a reaction to convulted paradigms of morality. But this becomes problematic when people begin to start to hoot and holler with something as innocent as a public mix-gender marathon. Whereas if two-weeks sold out strip shows go on in the theatres everyday is acceptable.
The relativity of moral values needs to be addressed. Because the reality has changed.
HisExcellency:
Actually you are missing the point. And it is because you probably don`t live in Pakistan.
As mentioned earlier, Punjab isn`t the Pakhtun belt where with the help of Americans and Faujiz the mullahs managed to engineer a victory. Cities like Gujranwala are industrial towns and are going through the SAME evolutionary process as other agrarian cities have gone through. This means woman will be participating in the public sphere. More not less.
Your comment on foreign investors only going to Lahore, Karachi, ISB was very immature. Lahore, Karachi, ISB only make up 15-20 percent of Pakistan`s population. But most terrorists - sectarian and otherwise - emerge from the cities you mentioned. The CONSERVATIVE centers. A foreigner isnt going to care whether Lahore, Karachi, ISB is in the tribal belt, or in Sipah-Sahab`s adda ie Jhang district.
Plus, asking the Punjab government to focus only on Lahore is not smart. That`s why you`re not a politician or a representative of the people (probably also why you prefer Fauji governments).
But you can see the clash of conservative and progressive values quite clearly.
Gujranwala has become the center of obscenity. I have no problems with that particularly since the obscenity is mostly due to a reaction to convulted paradigms of morality. But this becomes problematic when people begin to start to hoot and holler with something as innocent as a public mix-gender marathon. Whereas if two-weeks sold out strip shows go on in the theatres everyday is acceptable.
The relativity of moral values needs to be addressed. Because the reality has changed.
#79 Posted by Romair on April 26, 2005 6:48:45 pm
Urstruly #63: ``First of all, under Islamic jurisprudence (as it is inferred from Qura`n and Hadith) the bare minimum for both men and women is specifically defined in no uncertain terms. For men the bare minimum (in jurists terminology it is called ``sattar`` meaning the `covered` or `hidden`.) is an area that starts right below the navel and goes up to right above the knee cap.``
The bare minimum dress, according to Islam, for men, is actually not from the navel to right above the knee cap. It is from the navel to the knee. Do point me to where you got the definition, of right above the knee..........
``So men can wear shorts, without even wearing shirts. I have thus worn shorts.``
I don`t know of any kind of shorts that go to the knee, other than a very very long pair of Bermuda shorts, or Capri pants. No male wears those to play sports. So, within the boundaries of the discussion you have given, i.e. Shariah, men are only allowed to wear extremely long Bermuda shorts. So you along with any sports team in Pakistan, is in violation..........Even if we take your definition, normal shorts do not go, ``right above the knee cap,`` i.e. they go to the middle of the thigh. So, even according to your definition, sports shorts are not allowed in Islam............
I don`t believe in using Hadith, for jurisprudence. But since you do, here are some references:
1. Reported Muhammad Jahsh, ``The Messenger of Allah, upon whom be peace, passed by Ma`mar while his thighs were uncovered. He said, to him, `O Ma`mar, cover your thighs, for they are (part of the) `aurah.`` This is related by Ahmad, al-Hakim and al-Bukhari in Tareekh and in mu`allaq form in his Sahih.
2. Reported Jurhad, ``The Messenger of Allah passed by me when the cloak I was wearing did not cover my thigh. He said, `Cover your thigh, for it (is part of the) `aurah.`` This is related by Ahmad, Abu Dawud and at-Tirmidhi, who called it hassan, and by al-Bukhari in mu`allaq form in the Sahih.
3. Hadith - Sunan of Abu Dawood, Narrated AbuJurayy Jabir ibn Salim al-Hujaymi
The Prophet saaws said, ``Have your lower garment halfway down your shin; if you cannot do it, have it up to the ankles. Beware of trailing the lower garment, for it is conceit and Allah does not like conceit.``
The bare minimum dress, according to Islam, for men, is actually not from the navel to right above the knee cap. It is from the navel to the knee. Do point me to where you got the definition, of right above the knee..........
``So men can wear shorts, without even wearing shirts. I have thus worn shorts.``
I don`t know of any kind of shorts that go to the knee, other than a very very long pair of Bermuda shorts, or Capri pants. No male wears those to play sports. So, within the boundaries of the discussion you have given, i.e. Shariah, men are only allowed to wear extremely long Bermuda shorts. So you along with any sports team in Pakistan, is in violation..........Even if we take your definition, normal shorts do not go, ``right above the knee cap,`` i.e. they go to the middle of the thigh. So, even according to your definition, sports shorts are not allowed in Islam............
I don`t believe in using Hadith, for jurisprudence. But since you do, here are some references:
1. Reported Muhammad Jahsh, ``The Messenger of Allah, upon whom be peace, passed by Ma`mar while his thighs were uncovered. He said, to him, `O Ma`mar, cover your thighs, for they are (part of the) `aurah.`` This is related by Ahmad, al-Hakim and al-Bukhari in Tareekh and in mu`allaq form in his Sahih.
2. Reported Jurhad, ``The Messenger of Allah passed by me when the cloak I was wearing did not cover my thigh. He said, `Cover your thigh, for it (is part of the) `aurah.`` This is related by Ahmad, Abu Dawud and at-Tirmidhi, who called it hassan, and by al-Bukhari in mu`allaq form in the Sahih.
3. Hadith - Sunan of Abu Dawood, Narrated AbuJurayy Jabir ibn Salim al-Hujaymi
The Prophet saaws said, ``Have your lower garment halfway down your shin; if you cannot do it, have it up to the ankles. Beware of trailing the lower garment, for it is conceit and Allah does not like conceit.``
#80 Posted by Urstruly on April 26, 2005 7:13:36 pm
Re: # 79
My job is done. I have pointed you towards the right direction.
Unlike you people, we Muslims infer jurisprudence from Qura`n and hadith. Now please explain to me, is there an avenue open for women running among men here? You have posted the evidence yourself.
My job is done. I have pointed you towards the right direction.
Unlike you people, we Muslims infer jurisprudence from Qura`n and hadith. Now please explain to me, is there an avenue open for women running among men here? You have posted the evidence yourself.
#81 Posted by stinger_kh on April 26, 2005 7:14:16 pm
Re: # 63
I totally agree with Urstrulyhere. I just want to add in that there was a photo session of PM with Mukhtaran Mai just recently one wonder`s if same thing occur with the wives of PM or President then the will make that issue Public and do photo sessions in front of press, I feel that they are using Mukhtaran Mai as a ladder to move forwad which they the call modernism. I moved to West in my teen age since then i am waitting for that day when a rape case will be make public one wonders why this thing does not happen here where a women get rapped after each 20seconds. I listened Qazi Sahib views on marathon race he just said that he has no ojection on womens taking part in such activity but there should be seprate arrangements for each gender since Pakistan is an Islamic State.
I totally agree with Urstrulyhere. I just want to add in that there was a photo session of PM with Mukhtaran Mai just recently one wonder`s if same thing occur with the wives of PM or President then the will make that issue Public and do photo sessions in front of press, I feel that they are using Mukhtaran Mai as a ladder to move forwad which they the call modernism. I moved to West in my teen age since then i am waitting for that day when a rape case will be make public one wonders why this thing does not happen here where a women get rapped after each 20seconds. I listened Qazi Sahib views on marathon race he just said that he has no ojection on womens taking part in such activity but there should be seprate arrangements for each gender since Pakistan is an Islamic State.
#82 Posted by stinger_kh on April 26, 2005 7:14:45 pm
Re: # 63
I totally agree with Urstruly here. I just want to add in that there was a photo session of PM with Mukhtaran Mai just recently one wonder`s if same thing occur with the wives of PM or President then the will make that issue Public and do photo sessions in front of press, I feel that they are using Mukhtaran Mai as a ladder to move forwad which they the call modernism. I moved to West in my teen age since then i am waitting for that day when a rape case will be make public one wonders why this thing does not happen here where a women get rapped after each 20seconds. I listened Qazi Sahib views on marathon race he just said that he has no ojection on womens taking part in such activity but there should be seprate arrangements for each gender since Pakistan is an Islamic State.
I totally agree with Urstruly here. I just want to add in that there was a photo session of PM with Mukhtaran Mai just recently one wonder`s if same thing occur with the wives of PM or President then the will make that issue Public and do photo sessions in front of press, I feel that they are using Mukhtaran Mai as a ladder to move forwad which they the call modernism. I moved to West in my teen age since then i am waitting for that day when a rape case will be make public one wonders why this thing does not happen here where a women get rapped after each 20seconds. I listened Qazi Sahib views on marathon race he just said that he has no ojection on womens taking part in such activity but there should be seprate arrangements for each gender since Pakistan is an Islamic State.
#83 Posted by hamidm2 on April 26, 2005 7:55:59 pm
urstruly to romair ...
``Unlike you people, we Muslims infer jurisprudence from Qura`n and hadith.``
............ so romair is a kafir after all ! .......... and pray, who are ``we`` muslims ? ... are we talking about the murderous mullah brigade that is out to grab power by getting us all excited over bare legs and bosoms ? ............. the koran and the hadith are like das capital and the communist manifesto - divine documents to be exploited by wicked men ...........
``Unlike you people, we Muslims infer jurisprudence from Qura`n and hadith.``
............ so romair is a kafir after all ! .......... and pray, who are ``we`` muslims ? ... are we talking about the murderous mullah brigade that is out to grab power by getting us all excited over bare legs and bosoms ? ............. the koran and the hadith are like das capital and the communist manifesto - divine documents to be exploited by wicked men ...........
#84 Posted by cayenne on April 27, 2005 12:22:18 am
Re: # 73
???...Indian female police wear uniform///pants////atleast in the metros///maybe in the towns and villages they wear saris////most of them are butch and with busty bosoms///they chew paan, cuss, swear, are gruff and show no mercy to anyone....especially men. Women in the armed forces are more genteel and well proportioned.Maybe, many of them are the progeny of armed forces personnel.
???...Indian female police wear uniform///pants////atleast in the metros///maybe in the towns and villages they wear saris////most of them are butch and with busty bosoms///they chew paan, cuss, swear, are gruff and show no mercy to anyone....especially men. Women in the armed forces are more genteel and well proportioned.Maybe, many of them are the progeny of armed forces personnel.
#85 Posted by cayenne on April 27, 2005 4:41:37 am
I`m kinda proud of our indian women......they`re cops, firefighters, weightlifters, construction workers, professionals of all disciplines, dancing girls......they span the whole spectrum of occupations.......way to go.......i got another pic pf weightlifter malleswari........cool..........
http://thatscricket.indiainfo.com/olympics/2000/image/indiaathletics.html
http://thatscricket.indiainfo.com/olympics/2000/image/indiaathletics.html
#86 Posted by jang on April 27, 2005 8:31:22 am
are bhau, please drive your santro to a nearby police station in amchi mumbai and you will see plenty of female cops in khakhi saris.
#87 Posted by vertex on April 27, 2005 9:18:05 am
Gotta admit...saris do look rather majestic....as a formal uniform it`s at least striking and impressive albeit not very functional...
#88 Posted by Romair on April 27, 2005 10:24:41 am
Urstruly #80: ``Unlike you people, we Muslims infer jurisprudence from Qura`n and hadith. Now please explain to me, is there an avenue open for women running among men here? You have posted the evidence yourself.``
As usual, you have not answered the question I asked. And are trying to divert the discussion. I asked you to point me to the, ``Islamic jurisprudence (as it is inferred from Qura`n and Hadith),`` which stated that it is legal for you to wear shorts. You did not point me to anything.
The last time we had a discussion, I had challenged you to explain how Hadith could be considered genuine, when they were orally passed, over 200 years, before being written. You stated that they were in written form in a museum in Turkey. I challenged you on that. And you refused to reply, other than the standard declaration of calling me an Ahmedi, or a non—Muslim etc.
You seem to have a habit of throwing around the term, “Quran and Hadith,” unnecessarily, thereby turning Islam into a joke. Apparently, very few people on this site have studied the subject, and thus, you try to bulldoze your ideas, over them. I have spent a lot of time studying Islam and the life of Muhammad. Two things I am quite fascinated by. Which is probably why I am not as turned off by Islam as many people and not as obsessed with it as many. In fact, other than my own profession, much of my book reading is on the history of Islam.
It is also why I can easily see the hollowness of so many arguments that you try to pass of, as if based in Islam. And I challenge you to prove them. And over my four years or more on Chowk, you have yet to prove one. Even though I tend to argue them in your own domain, i.e. Shariah.
Let me provide you with the truth: Under any Shariah, with a basis in hadith, it is banned for a Muslim male to expose any portion of his leg, between the navel and knee. This is what is widely acceptable, by, “scholars.” So wearing shorts is banned in Islam, not only for women, but for men, also. Because even the longest shorts expose something between the navel and knee. So they are banned according to Hadith.
In fact, according to Hadith (I can quote them to you, if you want); men are not wear pants going below the ankle. Do you wear pants? I assume you do. Do they go below your ankles? I assume they do. Then you are in violation of Shariah.
It is also illegal to wear tight pants. Once again, I am sure, you do that as well, if you wear jeans.
So your own dress code is in strict violation of Shariah, because, you wear shorts and pants. What will be the punishment for that? At the very least, don’t you think you should first apply the Shariah on yourself, before targeting women and other entities?
As usual, you have not answered the question I asked. And are trying to divert the discussion. I asked you to point me to the, ``Islamic jurisprudence (as it is inferred from Qura`n and Hadith),`` which stated that it is legal for you to wear shorts. You did not point me to anything.
The last time we had a discussion, I had challenged you to explain how Hadith could be considered genuine, when they were orally passed, over 200 years, before being written. You stated that they were in written form in a museum in Turkey. I challenged you on that. And you refused to reply, other than the standard declaration of calling me an Ahmedi, or a non—Muslim etc.
You seem to have a habit of throwing around the term, “Quran and Hadith,” unnecessarily, thereby turning Islam into a joke. Apparently, very few people on this site have studied the subject, and thus, you try to bulldoze your ideas, over them. I have spent a lot of time studying Islam and the life of Muhammad. Two things I am quite fascinated by. Which is probably why I am not as turned off by Islam as many people and not as obsessed with it as many. In fact, other than my own profession, much of my book reading is on the history of Islam.
It is also why I can easily see the hollowness of so many arguments that you try to pass of, as if based in Islam. And I challenge you to prove them. And over my four years or more on Chowk, you have yet to prove one. Even though I tend to argue them in your own domain, i.e. Shariah.
Let me provide you with the truth: Under any Shariah, with a basis in hadith, it is banned for a Muslim male to expose any portion of his leg, between the navel and knee. This is what is widely acceptable, by, “scholars.” So wearing shorts is banned in Islam, not only for women, but for men, also. Because even the longest shorts expose something between the navel and knee. So they are banned according to Hadith.
In fact, according to Hadith (I can quote them to you, if you want); men are not wear pants going below the ankle. Do you wear pants? I assume you do. Do they go below your ankles? I assume they do. Then you are in violation of Shariah.
It is also illegal to wear tight pants. Once again, I am sure, you do that as well, if you wear jeans.
So your own dress code is in strict violation of Shariah, because, you wear shorts and pants. What will be the punishment for that? At the very least, don’t you think you should first apply the Shariah on yourself, before targeting women and other entities?
#89 Posted by ShoreSahib on April 27, 2005 10:28:18 am
My aunt who is in her early forties, teaches at a local Medical College in Lahore. All her life she has been going to Lawrence gardens. Before she heads to lecture, she drops off her daughters at the Convent, and then goes to Lawrence Gardens, runs 3 miles in full shalwar kameez, sneakers and hijab. She normally does not wear hijab but while running in Lawrence Gardens, she always does wear it. She has kept herself in great shape due to this habit, as well as reaped stress lowering benefits in her hectic life. She is a religious and highly spiritual person, and I myself have prayed behind her as she led Maghrib prayer enmasse with her nieces and nephews at a picnic we had in Lawrence Gardens.
The air and the public spaces are not the property of the men, they belong to women equally.
The MMA plays upon the fears and insecurities of men while using the flag of Islam.
The air and the public spaces are not the property of the men, they belong to women equally.
The MMA plays upon the fears and insecurities of men while using the flag of Islam.
#90 Posted by Romair on April 27, 2005 10:31:17 am
Urstruly #80: ``please explain to me, is there an avenue open for women running among men here?``
Now to answer your question (even though you will not answer mine). There is one avenue that springs to mind. And that is the tawaf around the Kaaba.
But to get to the gist of your question: Depends on what you are using for interpretation. If you are basing your interpretation on Hadith, then women are condemned to hell, regardless of what they do, since most of the people in hell will be women. They cannot even walk amongst men, much less run. Then again, there are stories of women fighting in wars amongst men. At the same time, according to the same interpretations of hadith, men cannot wear shorts or track suits (below their ankles). Or tight clothes (once again track suits). Which means, all sports of any kind are banned for any Muslim human being, unless he wears a dhoti; and that too above the ankles............and a very lose one at that...........So Muslims should not participate in sports, at all - men or women............if you want to follow hadith-based Shariah...........
However, if you interpret from the Quran, there is hardly any restriction on anything (barring a few issues). The Quran is far too abstract, and far too small to start putting restrictions on each and every thing. This, along with the fact that Islam bans the clergy (and pushes egalitarianism at its basic core), is why it has been quite successful over the years. In fact the success of Islam, will always be inversely proportional to the size of the clergy, at any time in history..........
In addition, the Quran requires a context in which it is to be interpreted. That is far too obvious. Since most parts of the Quran are interpreted within a context, already..........
For example, the timings for setting a fast are describe in verse 2:187, as:
``may eat and drink until the white thread of light becomes distinguishable from the dark thread of night at dawn.``
Now suppose I move to Yellowknife, in the Nothern part of Canada, where they have 24 hours of sunlight, at certain times. And 24 hours of darkness. When do I set my fast? And when do I open it?
If I follow the Quran strictly, I will die, if I fast in Yellowknife, because I will not be able to eat for weeks, because the sun will not have come out or set..........
So, maybe, just maybe, men wore dhotis while running in the local sporting events, during the time of Muhammad, because track suits had not been invented............If they had Adidas and Nike back then, they would have opted for for track suits............
Now to answer your question (even though you will not answer mine). There is one avenue that springs to mind. And that is the tawaf around the Kaaba.
But to get to the gist of your question: Depends on what you are using for interpretation. If you are basing your interpretation on Hadith, then women are condemned to hell, regardless of what they do, since most of the people in hell will be women. They cannot even walk amongst men, much less run. Then again, there are stories of women fighting in wars amongst men. At the same time, according to the same interpretations of hadith, men cannot wear shorts or track suits (below their ankles). Or tight clothes (once again track suits). Which means, all sports of any kind are banned for any Muslim human being, unless he wears a dhoti; and that too above the ankles............and a very lose one at that...........So Muslims should not participate in sports, at all - men or women............if you want to follow hadith-based Shariah...........
However, if you interpret from the Quran, there is hardly any restriction on anything (barring a few issues). The Quran is far too abstract, and far too small to start putting restrictions on each and every thing. This, along with the fact that Islam bans the clergy (and pushes egalitarianism at its basic core), is why it has been quite successful over the years. In fact the success of Islam, will always be inversely proportional to the size of the clergy, at any time in history..........
In addition, the Quran requires a context in which it is to be interpreted. That is far too obvious. Since most parts of the Quran are interpreted within a context, already..........
For example, the timings for setting a fast are describe in verse 2:187, as:
``may eat and drink until the white thread of light becomes distinguishable from the dark thread of night at dawn.``
Now suppose I move to Yellowknife, in the Nothern part of Canada, where they have 24 hours of sunlight, at certain times. And 24 hours of darkness. When do I set my fast? And when do I open it?
If I follow the Quran strictly, I will die, if I fast in Yellowknife, because I will not be able to eat for weeks, because the sun will not have come out or set..........
So, maybe, just maybe, men wore dhotis while running in the local sporting events, during the time of Muhammad, because track suits had not been invented............If they had Adidas and Nike back then, they would have opted for for track suits............
#91 Posted by hamidm2 on April 27, 2005 11:28:35 am
check out ``his`` team ............
urstruly is third from the right
urstruly is third from the right
#92 Posted by Urstruly on April 27, 2005 11:45:37 am
Romair #90
The reason that sometimes I do not dignify your pointless and meaningless diatribe is because that is what it is. I have a day job and I intend to keep it. The problem with you is that while writing a post you invent a premise; you assume that it is true without verifying it and build a whole castle around it. The only reason that I am dignifying this particular post of yours with a response is to see whether you are on some sort of drugs or not. You probably spent an hour or so writing your post and I am really taking a big stab in the dark assuming that you spent an hour or so in addition to that on figuring out the logic and the language etc. of the post. So, conservatively speaking you wasted 2 hours of your life building a case on a wrong premise.
Your basic premise in this post is that I somehow had provided wrong or false information in my previous post (#63) regarding the covered area. So here is the crux of your argument where you try to ``correct`` my error or right my wrong. You write `` Let me provide you with the truth: Under any Shariah, with a basis in hadith, it is banned for a Muslim male to expose any portion of his leg, between the navel and knee. This is what is widely acceptable, by, “scholars.”.
Now please explain to me in God`s good name how it is any different from your ``truth`` when I wrote in my post # 63 that For men the bare minimum (in jurists terminology it is called ``sattar`` meaning the `covered` or `hidden`.) is an area that starts right below the navel and goes up to right above the knee cap.
For crying out loud you provided the evidence with not one but two ahadith yourself in your post, writing:
1. Reported Muhammad Jahsh, ``The Messenger of Allah, upon whom be peace, passed by Ma`mar while his thighs were uncovered. He said, to him, `O Ma`mar, cover your thighs, for they are (part of the) `aurah.`` This is related by Ahmad, al-Hakim and al-Bukhari in Tareekh and in mu`allaq form in his Sahih.
2. Reported Jurhad, ``The Messenger of Allah passed by me when the cloak I was wearing did not cover my thighs . He said, `Cover your thigh, for it (is part of the) `aurah.`` This is related by Ahmad, Abu Dawud and at-Tirmidhi, who called it hassan, and by al-Bukhari in mu`allaq form in the Sahih.
Now had you bothered to read either of these ahadith that you posted you would have noticed that the keyword in both ahadith is the ``thigh``. Now please explain to me how one should define a thigh? Is the knee a part of thigh or the thigh ends from where the kneecap starts? And what exactly is the line from where the kneecap starts. Believe me, these trivial details were discussed by the ulema when defining the `sattar`. They have arbitrarily chosen an imaginary horizontal line passing through the center of the kneecap as a line of reference. The liberal group of ulema say that the sattar must be up to about two fingers above that centerline. That puts us approximately where the knee cap start from top. According to these ulema if a person is covered from navel to the two fingers above the kneecap he can offer his prayers. The conservative ulema on one hand do agree with the centerline concept but they contend that in order to be on the safe side the length of attire should be at least two fingers below the centerline. They contend that while sitting in the Namaz the attire slides up a bit and may exposes the area two fingers above the centerline therefore it is prudent to have a longer attire.
Coming back to me, yes I have worn shorts that were about three to four fingers above my knee cap. I admit that I am guilty of this obscenity of showing my knee cleavage, so sue me.
Now please explain to me how all the boxers and NFL players wear shorts that go well below their knees and perform in these games that require the most agility. From your post you are trying to convey a message that knee-long knickers are not only non-existent but impractical as well. The evidence below makes you false premise fall on its face yet again:
#93 Posted by hamidm2 on April 27, 2005 11:56:22 am
Re: # 92
urstruly,
......... is it also true that you have to keep a sheet between you and your partner while having sex ?.......... i am serious - this is what i learned in our compulsory islamiyat class at uet which was taught by the same genius who taught fluid mechanics .( i forget his name now) ......... needless to say the attendance in his islamiyat class far exceeded that in fluid mechanics ........... it was a source of immense mirth for the boys who wanted to get into the technical details of this maneuver ..............
.......... by the way, i think your shorts are at least six inches above the knee in your club picture ............
urstruly,
......... is it also true that you have to keep a sheet between you and your partner while having sex ?.......... i am serious - this is what i learned in our compulsory islamiyat class at uet which was taught by the same genius who taught fluid mechanics .( i forget his name now) ......... needless to say the attendance in his islamiyat class far exceeded that in fluid mechanics ........... it was a source of immense mirth for the boys who wanted to get into the technical details of this maneuver ..............
.......... by the way, i think your shorts are at least six inches above the knee in your club picture ............
#94 Posted by Urstruly on April 27, 2005 12:07:08 pm
Re: # 93
Yes hamidm you are a genius and I am bored
Yes hamidm you are a genius and I am bored
#95 Posted by hamidm2 on April 27, 2005 12:11:26 pm
romair,
....... i commend you for your efforts to stand up to maulana urstruly........... but don`t you realize the futility of fighting the hadith with the koran ?........... one is worse than the other when it comes to providing any meaningful guidance on anything that really matters ..........it is like looking for answers in the communist manifsto instead of das capital .............
.......... but, anyway, it was a good try ..........
....... i commend you for your efforts to stand up to maulana urstruly........... but don`t you realize the futility of fighting the hadith with the koran ?........... one is worse than the other when it comes to providing any meaningful guidance on anything that really matters ..........it is like looking for answers in the communist manifsto instead of das capital .............
.......... but, anyway, it was a good try ..........