The Ultimate Betrayal

Dear Dionysus aka Bacchus from whom is derived the word bacchanalia whose definition is freely available on the net if not in dictionaries that you might find in your own home….

Am I really losing all credibility??!! Curses!! All these weeks and months of sleepless nights worrying about it and all of a sudden it is going, going, gone! Woe is me! Goodbye cruel world! … etc, etc.

I was hoping that sooner or later you would realize the point Ana has been trying to make in her posts to you and in her ilog, which is that a. some of us prefer to respond to civil queries and b. to use this discussion about CSA to further your own homophobic agenda is distasteful. But…before I “freakin” answer pls answer these two questions, which will help me answer your question better:

1. Have you read all the posts on this board?
2. Are you asking this question because a.you really want to explore this idea or b. are you asking it because you really can’t stand homosexuality and this seems like a good opportunity to underscore that especially to people who’ve apparently been getting in your face about that fact?
3.What is it about homosexuality that you find detrimental to society if you discount the fact that your religion prohibits it?

These are all simple, non taxing questions that will take us further towards 2. a. Thanks.

HP you have hinted at something crucial, in countries where the majority of the population cannot afford to live as civilised human beings the debate between secular/religous, hindu/muslim etc is secondary.

Europe progressed out of this stage through two avenues, one was inter religous bloodletting on an unprecedented scale, the second, which followed, was economic growth. We certainly shouldnt aspire to the former but the latter is open to us.

Poverty imposes many more and far greater evils on the dignity and well being of an individual than incest or homosexuality.

romair
``I think eventually incest will be legal in various countries. ``

it IS legal in most countries if between consenting adults. only marriage is not legal.

anyhoo, i dont think it will be an issue for a long time, since there is no evidence that its widely practiced (as gayness is). i.e. there is no ``market`` for it.

Romair:
#303

I concur; laws do have to be institutionalized to protect children.

All I’m saying is that we can legislate CSA all we want but until the cultural silence is broken on this issue, no one is going to seek refuge in those laws. We are a culture which can’t even talk about heterosexual sex between a married couple. To bring CSA out in the open in such an environment is a challenge.

Amrita:
#309

Thanks for giving me that information. It seems the laws around this issue are rather nebulous. I will try and catch Rahul next time he is around.

Romair #327

Latest gem from Romair: ``I think eventually incest will be legal in various countries. ``

The fun never stops
As romair licks his chops

Jang #324: I think you have made a very valid point. A point that should be debated more, since it hits at the heart of the whole incest, consent etc. debate. In the end, the ultimate protection offered to anyone, including children, is through the legal system of a country. And that is where people should make their stand…………

I think eventually incest will be legal in various countries. For the reasons, you mentioned. Much like homosexuality and gay marriage is legal. A few decades ago, it would have been impossible to imagine gay marriage would be legal. But it is, now, in various countries……….

The basis of Western legal system is giving preference to individual liberties and rights over social, religious etc. customs and norms.; even if those customs are practiced by the majority. So, even though a majority of the people oppose homosexuality, it is legal. The ruling is based on the protection of the right of the individual homosexual, regardless of the majority view. Similarly, the protection of the individual rights will be upheld in incest also………

I think you are correct in stating that Western society does eventually adjust to those rulings. In a way, this is its strength. It morphs and transforms, as required. I think most of it will adjust to any ruling on sexuality. However, some countries will be the exception. I think they are about to draw the line on how much they are willing to morph.

For example, Canada will fully legalize gay marriage. Gay civil marriage is already legal in seven provinces and one territory of Canada. However, I think the USA may introduce a Constitutional amendment to ban it. This issue is a watershed for Western society, because it hits at the heart of the basic fabric of the society. So far, people had been living in a relatively comfortable place, where religion was out of the State, in all issues, other than family and marriage. The State gave you tax breaks if you married a woman. But not if you married a man. However certain European now countries allow your male partner to get citizenship now. Will they extend that to one’s incestual partner? Under the same argument used to legalize homosexuality, they will have to. One cannot oppose homophobia and promote incest-o-phobia or any other kind of sexual partner phobia………Apparently all of us are hypocrites when it comes to this…….For example I oppose gay marriage and homosexuality and incest……..But I support the right of marriage between first cousins, which is considered incest in half of the USA………

I think if people want to understand this fully – specifically those of very liberal and secular beliefs – they need to get into this debate, rather than try to stifle it. They should realize that many of the people debating this aren’t doing so, just to get more religion into politics (though many, like the Religious Right and Republican leadership in the USA, are into it for this reason). They are debating it because they oppose incest and want a legal framework, where it remains illegal………

HP#320 Cain killed Abel, so I doubt if there was anything else going on between them. And the Genesis does mention his wife and omits to mention where the hell she came from. So, we have a little problem with the story here. :-)

The Bible, btw, focuses a lot on the prophets stories - and there is some real racy stuff there. The Quran refers to those Biblical prophets but does not get into their story-telling so much - its focus is on concepts (which, of course are ignored by both the ``looney liberals`` as well as by the ``looney mullahs`` of Pakistan, since those concepts call for a certain level of character that neither possesses).

#320 by tahmed32

“I was pointing to a more basic problem: If Cain was the son of Adam and Eve, then who was Cain`s wife?? “

There is a possibility that they were reproducing via sodomy! May be baba and bibi’s sons were doing hanky panky behind their parents back and God smiled on them?
Is there any mention of boys’ age in the scripture?
So if sodomy was okay then, why poor gays are being bashed here.

They wanna lock up gays in jails, kill women for having sex before marriage, and punish all for opposing the religious wars but would insist that incest was outlawed by religions, still have no word for what baba, bibi’s sons were doing when God smiled on them.

Hindvi,
Who needs more help then the kids-many under 13- who watch there poor parents having sex in the same bedroom where kids sleep. This story is repeated in pretty much 1/4 of subcontinent’s homes where whole family has access to one room only.

boy, the liberal seculars are taking a real beating here .. all becuse of their support of the gays...

#314 by dionysus
i think the western society has kind of adjusted to the gays becuase there is a sufficient number who are commited enough to be out of closet in face of public ridicule if not violence, and are otherwise good citizens. if there a large enough number incestuous adults who over dacades make their case, sure, the society will adopt. this is what is interesting about liberal secular society. you can make a point, and press your cause, and you will less likely be shut-out (or beheaded) due to a illogical outdated book. i mean, as is obvious, bible itself seems to hide incest among gods children.

so adult incest is discussed in books by famous authors (in fiction) with no big outcry in the liberal west. the author continues to have a table for himself in barnes and nobles. adult incest is just too uncommon, its that simple (unlike adult gays). if it becomes common, we shall argue it out and once a case is made, we will get used to it. but we shall cross that bridge if we have to. untill then, just hope that some of your family dont come out of the closet ;-)

Re: # 316

ntsyed,

..... what is the point of your silly story ?....... you want stories ?......... i will give you some real true life cases :

............... in 1940 something my 14 year old mamoon ran away from home in quetta and took the train to see some actress in bombay (i think it was nargis ).......... he did send a telegram once he got there and came back after a few months once he ran out of money ....... they say my grandfather whopped his butt so hard that he couldn`t sit for a month ...... but he grew up to be a fine young man with a successful business and seven lovely children and performed the hajj three times and umrah many times ....... but he never lost his passion for the performing arts and continued to patronize the ladies in heera mandi lahore well into his seventies !............ so what is the point ? ...... that`s what i asked ?

................ in 1980 something my younger brother ``ran`` away from home because he didn`t do too well on his ninth grade exam and was afraid to come home ...........we found him after twenty four hours at a neighbour`s house; a few years later he ran away with the same neighbour`s daughter, but we found him again and threw a big party (actually two or three) with hundreds of guests to welcome him home ........ now it is his wife`s job to make sure he doesn`t run away again - the guy is a habitual runner .............. no point here either, but it is just another runaway story .....

............. but here is a runaway story which does have a point and, maybe, even a moral for you ....... one of my first cousins is a man of your ilk - a oxford graduate mullah who lives in the uk ...... he is married to his first cousin who also happens to be his niece (go figure that one !) and has a nice steady government job which allows him to spend most of his time at the local masjid with the boys from raiwind .......... once every other year or so he takes off for a couple of months with his boyfriends to tour africa, south america and visit the brothers imprisoned in american jails ......... this god fearing man has four children who he claims to love dearly but they still keep on running away .......... his youngest son was the first to run away from home when he was twelve - he called in the social services people because his father was abusive and ended up in a foster home for six months while the professionals evaluated his father ......... then he took his eldest daughter to pakistan and tried to tried to marry her off to a friend`s son from bradford - of course the girl didn`t want anything to do with it because she is a manchester united fan ! ........... so, she ran away and sought protection in the british consulate - trust me, it was quite a scandal and took many months to resolve ............. my father, god bless his soul, summarized the whole thing for us with, `` is ulloo kay pathay ka mun kala kar kay, gadhay par betha kar saray shehr mein ghumana chaihaiya ``.............. but then the worst thing happened - his eldest son, a successful barrister and a nice young man, gave up a promising career and ran away to pakistan to get away from his father ............ ``the bloody chap is bonkers - if he wasn`t my father and my cousin`s and aunt`s husband i would beat the crap out of him `` ............

............so be careful ........

Ntsyed Sahib:
#316

Of course the U.S. can address this issue. Contrary to the myth developing here, a secular system does have Laws in place to protect minor children. Child advocacy groups abound in this Country to make sure that the rights of children are served.

Had someone reported this family, DCS (Department of Child Services) would have immediately been there to investigate child neglect. In the case of drug or alcohol abuse which detrimentally affects a child, DCS would mandate rehab. on part of the parent.

I do appreciate the point you are trying to make but please let’s not forget that children are an underclass the World over. In the purported Islamic Republic of Pakistan child labor exists in Dickensian proportions. Not to mention sundry other trespasses against children.

I`m not saying that children have it great here (U.S.). I`m just saying we should acknowledge that as adults we have failed children the World over. I don`t think any one country or culture is doing better than others.

Re: # 319 by hindvi

Nice try, but you`ll have to do better to dodge the question.

:-)~~

HP #306 Actually, it is not impossible (thanks to exponential growth) to have 6 billion people being born of a single couple.

I was pointing to a more basic problem: If Cain was the son of Adam and Eve, then who was Cain`s wife??

And indeed, one could add to this: And who gave birth to these people of the land of Nod that that Cain went to live with (again per Genesis), if Adam and Eve were indeed the first couple?

Further investigation on google indicates that the church boys dont have a good answer to this question. They claim they have a logical answer (of course!), but basically wander all over the map with their ``logic``, dragging in poor Jesus as being the ``last Adam``, referring to lengthy life spans of Adam and Eve and that they must have produced whole armies of babies, and so on - even Romair would appear the master of the succinct writing compared to the gibberish I found from the church boys on this. They do stop short of claiming that the bakri ate up selected sections of the Genesis on this.

Anyway, as the brits would say - there we are. Adam got his wife from his rib, and Cain got his wife out of thin air.

Nt Syed

My father had a middle class saudi friend who at 50 or a little more divorced his two older wives and sent them to their brothers while taking two 23 year old brides. I am assuming like the 13 year old his children didnt like that either. now who is going to help them?

In the case of the 13 year old help may or may not come (if he lived close to his relatives it probably would have) but in the muslim case no one can help them, because no body can change a word of the Quran (for all times to come) and the Quran permits this.

all kinds make this world, neither secularists nor the religous have a ``theka`` on morality.

Re: # 317

CORRECTION:

As per American law, the father hadn`t committed any crime, but is being punished for his deeds in the form of losing his family; at least at the time he didn`t consider it immoral. He had just as little regard for religion as some upholders of secularism here.

Re: # 316


the story is of a real boy in real america whom I had met in the US during my days of jahiliya through some mutual family friends when he was 13. I`ve changed the venue for the sake of relevance to this board.

The last I heard of the boy, he ran away when he 15 and whereabouts are unknown. The divorce was due to his father`s drinking and philandering. His father, a well to do engineer, is still looking for him whenever he`s alone... as I hear.

The point is: how do we classify this boy`s case? Child abuse, CSA because of sex involved, although it wasn`t with him...not that he told us.

As per American, the father committed any crime, but is being punished for his deeds; at least at the time he didn`t consider it immoral. He had just as little regard for religion as some upholders of seculars here.

What did the boy get punished for?

Can the Secular system address this issue without infringing upon one`s right to drink, fornicate, divorce, etc...more importantly, outside the context of religion? Because, whatever we told the father back then about the morality stuff, he`d reject it as derived from religion and was quite sure that the boy will be fine as soon as he gets his own gf and stuff.