anti-depressant

Re: # 16

> First of all, ``butch`` coming from a straight girl or guy has pejorative
> denotations...like ``queer`` or ``nancy boy`` or ``fag hag``....your poem
> tends to bear that tone out.
And a very major part of queer culture is to reclaim all the above words as compliments. :-) Words like ``queer``, ``boi``, ``butch``, ``dyke`` and so on are reclaimed as our own, as a way of being in-your-face. As I read the poem, I certainly didn`t think the word `butch` was used in a derogatory way. I saw it as illustrative of butch/femme dynamics in lesbian culture.

> I didnt comment on this before, but this poem doesnt seem very
> authentic or written with knowledge of the world you are representing.
I`m not sure what you mean by this, but if you mean what I think you mean, then I have to disagree. For one thing, I`d really like to hear what makes you a judge of ``authentic knowledge`` of the world she`s representing. The scenario described in the poem is a common one found in queer culture as I`ve explained below. And clearly, *she`s* the representative of that world, and I`m sure what she`s written has some basis in experience.

> It seems more like your attempt at lampooning what you seem to find
> ridiculous about the convoluted relationship that you are rendering
That *is* what she`s doing -- that`s kind of the point, being stuck in a meaningless relationship where one person is just using the other person for their kicks. Throw in the complications of butch/femme dynamics and the difficulty of defining labels when it comes to sexuality (is the straight girl just confused? is she a closet lesbian? is she bisexual? is she still straight because maybe she just views the butch lesbian as a man?), and you`ve got a right old postmodern mess on your hands. Anyway, I found the poem quite thought-provoking. :-)

> I`m still not completely sure whats going on.
Straight femme girl is using butch lesbian as her ``lesbian experiment`` -- she`s interested in experimenting but has no intention of taking it further than that. The butch mystique is a very important part of this poem -- many straight femme girls find butch women attractive because it`s hard to tell them apart from men and boys given their masculine appearance. Very common occurrence in lesbian culture. :-)

> The ensuing confusion for your reader may give you a quick thrill,
> but in terms of writing, clarity is paramount
I think what you`re saying is unfair here. It`s a judgment call, telling her she wants a quick thrill. The reason why the poem may have been unclear is because most people are not familiar with queer culture and dynamics, and queer terminology. Someone who`s steeped in it (me) would have no problems understanding it.

> It seems that you changed your piece willingly. So...whats the complaint again?
That the title should have been changed in the first place. In fact the poem would have been a lot clearer if ``for a butch`` had been in the title. I can see why the editors would have a problem with ``cum``, but it`s absolutely beyond me why they should have a problem with ``butch``, a term that simply indicates an alternative gender performance. Yes, I realize it used to be used in a derogatory sense, but in queer culture the words ``butch`` and ``dyke`` have very much been reclaimed as positive.

Really the only problem I had with the poem was the ``do ya hear`` -- the ``ya`` as temporal points out tends to jump out at the reader but maybe that was the poet`s intention anyway. Also, I`m very squeamish about words like ``cum``, so maybe I`m a little glad Fatimah changed that, heheh, but that`s just me.

Hey, Fatimah, next time I`ll write the cliff notes for your poetry. ;-)

Hey, Fatimah,

Nice poem, although I`m disappointed to hear they made you change the title. Why on earth would they do that? It`s the Internet for heaven`s sake. And I thought Chowk was supposed to be a pretty open-minded place.

I liked this part best: ``must be amusing / to fulfill your aging fantasies with my boy-like charms, no?`` You should write lyrics for my band some day. ;-)

Ref: #10 by BeeJay

> I thought that South Asia has no (out of closet) lesbians, but I must be
> wrong, of course.
Yep, there are plenty of us around. I run a mailing list for Pakistani lesbians/queer women/transfolk.

> Perhaps a technicality, but I suppose the term would be a “bi” rather than
> “straight” for the other woman (and perhaps that’s why you put it
> within quotes).
Not necessarily. Lots of people engage in homosexual behaviour but self-identify as heterosexual.

bluegaze,

When the editors at Chowk posted my piece, ``Dude, Where`s My Reference Point?``, they edited out a para-for reasons, I imagine, concerning brevity, space or possibly a political position with which they did not agree. I was pretty happy to have my piece on fp and I posted the excised para in one of my responses.

There are probably many reasons why you were asked to revise two words in your piece. First of all, ``butch`` coming from a straight girl or guy has pejorative denotations...like ``queer`` or ``nancy boy`` or ``fag hag``....your poem tends to bear that tone out. I didnt comment on this before, but this poem doesnt seem very authentic or written with knowledge of the world you are representing. It seems more like your attempt at lampooning what you seem to find ridiculous about the convoluted relationship that you are rendering-and I`m still not completely sure whats going on. The ensuing confusion for your reader may give you a quick thrill, but in terms of writing, clarity is paramount-even if the perspective is of a girl who likes boys to be girls or whatever...and ``cum`` or ``butch`` dont mean a thing when it comes to a text that hasnt risen fully...


It seems that you changed your piece willingly. So....whats the complaint again?

Dear Saminasha,
The editors at chowk asked me to change the title of my poem which was, ``Anti-depressant for a Butch`` - i agreed to change this
The last line where it now says ``come`` was originally ``cum`` The rest I told them I did not want to tone down. comments?
Fatimah

Bluegaze,

Seriously, your comments about censorship should be as well supported as possible. Could you please detail:

* what `changes`` the Chowk Staff made
* did they inform you of the changes they were making
* did you acquiesce or object then
* and why are you crying out loud now?

thanks!

Bluegaze,

The editors at chowk suggested you tone this down? Any corroboration?

Dear Beejay,

Thanks for your comments. A poem is a poem. what does this have to do with having outlets for lesbians? I am not sure I understand where you are coming from. In any case, I am sure you are not totally oblivious to the gay movement in Delhi and Bombay? There are a bunch of organizations that work on such issues, so in Inida one finds outlets which are more organized than in Pakistan.

Regarding your comments about the editors at Chowk. I totally agree. I had to fight with them to get this piece in and that too with some changes. It amazes me that when one talks about creative and free expression they are not totally clear about what that should entail. Yes, the readers should not be protected from anything that is too jarring, critical, harsh, open or raw. This is precisely why the middle class morality rules supreme in the sub-continent. When i told the editors that i was not willing to tone the poem down, they thought i was brave. I wondered what that meant. Why did they call me that for something as simple as saying that I would like my piece to be published as is or not. and who was out to get me?

BeeJay #10:

wait

you picked up the ball and are running in the wrong direction:)

i am reiterating two things...words as a tool in the hands of a writer or poet ...and...their ability to communicate with the reader... why else would a piece be published?...

rgds

t

#9 bluegaze

Dear Fatimah,

Thanks for this little but very critical piece of information, which puts the whole poem into a totally new light. I thought that South Asia has no (out of closet) lesbians, but I must be wrong, of course. Perhaps a technicality, but I suppose the term would be a “bi” rather than “straight” for the other woman (and perhaps that’s why you put it within quotes).

I am a little at a disadvantage here (unchartered waters and all that) because the relationship is same-sex, but common sense tells me, and I assume it would be obvious to anyone with a heart that the pain would be very real, no matter what the sexual orientation. A feeling of helplessness would accompany and further complicate the situation. (I hastily withdraw and apologize for using the “gigolo?” term, since it presupposed a heterosexual, consensual relationship between essentially equal individuals.) The way I see it now, at minimum, a lot of compassion would be in order, at least for one of the parties!

Darn! Those chowk editors! Always screwing up with original (and genuine) stuff to conform, conform, and conform! Why do the readers have to be “protected” so?! And protected from what? Isn’t this an adult crowd? No faith in the hardiness of this crowd, I suppose! Or just a case of too much chicken?!!!

#7 Temporal
I think a goat should be presented as a goat, if one is to be honest (to oneself, I mean). I say, let the readers decide for themselves! Presupposing that the readers’ perspective is so screwed up that they will confuse a goat for an elephant shows scant regard for their independent ability to make a judgment! Also, passing it on as a lamb would be patently dishonest! In fact, you have frequently reminded this crowd of the same fact numerous times with respect to the “military-mullah nexus” – that they want to dictate people’s thought processes. In my book, there is no gray area between genuine and fake, just like there is no such thing as “a little bit pregnant”! That’s all!

Dear Beejay,
No that is not what the poem is all about. The original title of the poem was ``anti-depressant for a Butch``. The editors at chowk did not like it and asked for it to be changed. The poem is about a butch lesbian who has the hots for a ``straight`` woman who uses her for her pleasure. The butch lesbian feels some resentment because the woman is straight, but also feels that the pain she feels inside her can be pacified by the woman so she hangs on to her nonetheless.

Let me know if you think differently of the poem. I was also asked by the editors to tone the poem down a little, but i wanted so see what people`s reactions would be to something raw.
fatimah

Fatimah,

I don’t mean to sound unduly critical and please don`t take this the wrong way. I read this poem several times and tried very hard and (maybe I just am not a poet because) this is honestly all that I can make out of it – a young man (a gigolo?) obliges an older lady (in high heels) with sex. She appears to have consistent periodic hots for him, but he only feels sad for himself. He then starts feeling something for her. The end.

If there is more to this story, it probably needs to be clarified somehow! I wish you good luck!

Why are people so averse to jarring and harsh lines, may i ask?

hmmmm...

will venture two replies

1: words are tools in a poet`s hands...with words s/he creates a sculpture...there are two perspectives involved here....the poet`s and the reader`s...if the poet`s goat is seen by the reader as a lamb...it would be one thing...but if the goat is seen as an elephant then there is a serious communication gap somewhere...

the lines could be smooth, mellifluous, rhyming, smooth in blank, free or iambic verse depending on what and how ( the theme, subject, mood) the poet wants to convey...

2: in this specific instance (#5) the ya stood out from the expression in the rest of the poem

Why are people so averse to jarring and harsh lines, may i ask? though life is benevolent in many ways, it is not always soft and rosy. I chose to look at it from this lens. Comments?

fatimah:

welcome to chowk!

found this jarring

that demon is rising from my core, do ya hear?

maybe you had a reason?

lve

t

hmm..
very clicnching yet not harsh.

Fatimah I loved the way the title contrasts with the text or maybe not? :)