Advani in Karachi

tddysam #424: ``Parliamentary Secretary of Agricultural Marketing Department, Rana Aftab Mohammed Khan, said at Phagwara on Thursday.``

Do you know anything about Rana Aftab Khan?

Having said that, Advani`s graph will go up from before, in Pakistan, after this. But it will not make him popular. He will just be slightly less unpopular than before, in Pakistan..........Amongst the BJP, the only person I can see who has some popularity in Pakistan, is Vajpayee..........Advani played the role of bad cop, too well...........

413:

``Pakistanis are not going to change their opinion, about him, even if started living in a tent on Quaid`s mizaar`s lawns, and washed it everyday.``


http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/jun/10advpak4.htm


The controversy surrounding Lal Kishenchand Advani notwithstanding, the popularity graph of the Bharatiya Janata Party president has risen high in Pakistan after his recent visit, a senior Pakistan government official said on Friday.

Advani`s remarks on Mohammed Ali Jinnah are ``proper, logical, symbolic of ideological change`` and another step forward in furthering the friendly relations between the two countries, Parliamentary Secretary of Agricultural Marketing Department, Rana Aftab Mohammed Khan, said at Phagwara on Thursday.


Advani was now more popular in Pakistan than perhaps in India, he said describing as ``unwarranted`` the row in India over Advani`s remarks. With his statement, Advani has metamorphosed his image into that of a humanist from the one of a Hindu hardliner, Khan said.

kaalchakra #: ``DM, Romair

So, do you think, it was all worked out in advance? ``

Dost-mittar might know. I have no idea. As I said, my knowledge of the internals of Indian politics is only from a distance.............I am just putting two and two together, i.e such experienced politicians don`t make such blunders, unless they want to. And if the only aim was to appeal to the Muslims in India and/or to the non-BJP types, then he did not have to go to Pakistan, and talk about Jinnah. He could have just apologized for Ayodhya in Ayodhya or Delhi etc.

The fact that he went to Pakistan and talked about Jinnah - a personality, which apparently seems to be abhored across the length and breadth of India, amongst every group and faction - means he wanted to pick the one person who would get him the most bang for the buck, in India. This would obviously not make him popular with the non-BJP folks either. And there is no way he will ever be popular in Pakistan even though Jinnah is the one and perhaps only entity - even moreso than Islam - which has universal popularity in Pakistan.....Had Vajpayee made such comments he could have been popular (since he is already kind of popular in Pakistan, due to his Kashmir initiatives).

So my guess is Advani was threatening the internals of BJP. And it seems to have worked. They want him back and have realized that he can overturn the BJP applecart anytime he wants..........If they mess with him again, he will again be in Lahore, describing the greatness of Aurangzeb, i.e. deliberately chosing figures that are unpopular in India..........

Calling the whole episode a tamasha is as silly as believing that Advani suddenly developed love for Mr. Jinnah. These views miss important changes going on beneath the surface of Indian politics.

If anybody has followed the news, they would know that RSS and some parts of BJP have fought many internal battles over the last few years. These battles could be entirely political, or they could reflect important shades of differences in their world-view. Important enough for many of these fights to become messy and take place publicly - both situations earlier considered anathema to the Parivar.

If a real crack occurs within the Parivar, that will be an IMPORTANT news for Indian politics. Indian liberals with even half a brain ought to see its possibilities and encourage it. This matter is too remote for many of our Pakistani friends to notice it clearly, and its unreasonable to expect them to recognize it till they see it unambiguously. But that should not be the case for Indians, who could play a more active role in hastening any such possible break. It will benefit everyone, including Pakistanis.

dost-mittar #411

{{If this was all a pre-planned tamasha, I would have to say that I had under-estimated the man`s scheming mind.}}

It ws beginning to look quite choreographed towards the end. To provide a little context, Vajpayee publicly threatened to resign a couple of times in his tenure as PM, expresing hurt at the attacks on him from his baiters in the parivaar. It was his way of asserting his authority. Advani was involved in the Uma Bharati resignation/suspension drama – I think she is now being rehabilitated. This spectacle of renunciation – feigned or otherwise – seems to play well with people who are not deracinated and not complete cynics.

Advani`s statements and actions are pre-planned and calculative.. This is NOT to get Pakistani or Indian Muslim sympathies, but to gain the confidence of a rather large number of voters and allies who just want to move on with life and are at unease with fighting historical revenge battles.. This is a very good move for Advani.. The hardcore ``hindu`` votes have no other place to go and it`s more or less locked.. BJP and Advani have come a long way from their near ``untouchable`` status in 1996 to gain quite a few ``allies`` and a good increase in vote share.. Inspite of the media hype about the ``secular`` vote winning over ``fundamentalism`` in 2004, it`s the local issues in TN and AP (80 seats) that turned the tables in Congress`s favor.

nakhok #408: ``It is highly educative to keep in mind the geographical concentration of military personnel - eighty percent of officers, rank and file, come from only five districts: Attock, Rawalpindi, Chakwal, Jhelum and Gujrat in Punjab; and three districts of NWFP: Mardan, Peshawar and Kohat - the ill-gotten wealth of the military funnels prosperity to a very narrow segment in the country (professionally & geographically).``

Could you provide your sources for this? I don`t agree with these statistics - specifically for the officer class and wealth distribution..........

Around 70-75% of the Army`s enlisted manpower comes from the districts you have mentioned. Not the PAF or Navy. Though I would say, Pindi, Jehlum, Chakwal, Mardan and Kohat, primarily. The reason it comes from there is exactly the opposite of the reason you have given. It comes from there, because these districts have traditionally been poor. They are the non-agricultural part of Punjab (and NWFP) and have no industry. There is no other employment than to join the military as an enlisted man or try to go abroad to Dubai, Saudi Arabia, as labor.

Being enlisted in the military (i.e. non-officer) is a very poor existence. Which is why hardly anyone from the lower financial class groups of urban Sindh or Lahore etc. adapts this as a profession. They can make more money, opening up a small cigarette stand...........

The officer class is a tiny % of any military. In Pakistan, that is far more distributed. Most still comes from Punjab and NWFP, because that is where 75% of Pakistan`s population lives. However, a lot comes from Karachi. And from other areas of Punjab. These guys do make money (if they become Generals, or end up in PIA etc. like our good friend NHK etc.). But that is now a tiny percentage. And after making money, invariably, they move to Lahore, Karachi or Islamabad.

In addition, the city that gets overwhelmingly the largest amount of the military budget, and has produced the most Chiefs is Karachi. There is no comparison. Karachi, by itself, gets more of the military budget than Baluchistan, rural Sind and NWFP combined.

So the, ``military`` wealth does not go into Kohat, Jehlum etc. These areas are still poor ( other than the specific city areas of Pindi). It goes, first and foremost, and overwhelmingly, into Karachi. Since Karachi gets most of the military budget, and it is where most of the retired Generals live. Then Lahore and then Islamabad. Three areas that produce hardly any of the enlisted class of the military.

If you don`t believe me, do point me to any major military bases and installations in the districts of Jehlum, Chakwal, Kohat, Mardan, Gujrat, Attock. Other than the city of Pindi, which has a large GHQ, and a corps headquarter, the other areas just have small installations........I don`t even think they have a corps headquarters (Peshwar does, Kharian???) These areas, historically and today, provide the cannon-fodder for the battles of the Sub-Continent, and get none of the money in return.........

You will have to look long and hard to find too many retired Generals who live in those areas. Even the ones from there, don`t live there anymore..........

I get the feeling that you (and various other interactors on this site) are actually not interested in learning about Pakistan. Your intentions are somewhere else......

Dost-Mittar

Did you even for a moment believe that FIR story?


DM, Romair

So, do you think, it was all worked out in advance?

An interesting debate on History, I suppose. For me though its a hollow pseudointellectual exercise. A ``mine is better than yours`` match garbed in nice and not so nice English (not my strong point).
We deify our leaders especially those who led us to or through freedom. Mr. Jinnnah is the father of Pakistani nation. Yet I heard a weeping Pakistani who was returning back after meeting his relatives in India, aboard the same train as I was, curse Mr. Jinnah for separating him from his relatives. If I were a Pakistani muslim I would also accuse him of separating me from my proud legacy, my history, culture and the graves of my ancestors(sorry if it hurts). I guess many would resent the sentimental imagery but I would take it. I would much rather revere the Pakistani policeman on the roads of Lahore who hugged my countrymen when they went to watch cricket there. Anyone who said nice words to those guys or even smiled seeing a sardarji in Lahore, even an illiterate who can`t write Jinnah in Urdu, is wiser than the brigade of cynics at chowk. Chow looks more like Siachin. Move over we need more of Lahories and more of cricket. I know better Indians and Pakistanis eg. the paanwalla, the milkman, the neighbourhood aunty, the autorickshawwallah. They know better.

And the tamasha continues in Pakistan as well. It appears that the FIR story was a fabricated leak to counter India`s demands to hand over accused criminals sheltered in Pakistan:


``In the midst of a controversy in India over Bharatiya Janata Party chief Lal Kishenchand Advani`s statement praising Mohammed Ali Jinnah, Pakistan on Friday said Advani`s name does not figure in the FIR filed in 1947 in connection with a conspiracy to assassinate the Pakistan leader.

A police file of 1947 containing an FIR relating to the attempt on Jinnah`s life does not include Advani`s name, a police official in Karachi was quoted as saying by Pakistani weekly The Friday Times.``

Romair:

You are right on this one. It`s BJP internal politics mainly. But it does make him more acceptable to non-hindutva types in India and a softer international image.

But here comes the spin for domestic consumption. Note the last sentence, ``I have decided to acceed to your request and not to press for my resignation,`` Advani said amidst applause from those present at the meeting.`` LOL


`Nation Jinnah founded is theocratic and non-secular`

Onkar Singh in New Delhi | June 10, 2005 20:20 IST


Bhartiya Janata Party accused Mohammad Ali Jinnah for Partition and said that regardless of his views on secularism, the state of Pakistan that he founded is theocratic and non-secular.

``BJP reiterates that whatever may have been Jinnah`s vision of Pakistan, the state that he founded is theocratic and non-secular; the very idea of Hindus and Muslims being two separate nations is repugnant to the Bhartiya Janata Party. The BJP has always condemned the division of India on communal lines and continues to steadfastly reject the two-nation theory championed by Jinnah and endorsed by the British colonists. There can be no revisiting the reality that Jinnah led a communal agitation to achieve his goal of Pakistan, which devoured thousands of innocent people in its wake and dispossessed millions of their homes and livelihoods,`` the party said in a resolution that was unanimously adopted by the parliamentary board, office bearers of the party and the chief ministers of the BJP-ruled states, in a bid to end the impasse created by the resignation of L K Advani as party president.

Advani drove to the party headquarters minutes before the meeting and was followed by former prime minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee and leader of the opposition in Rajya Sabha, Jaswant Singh, who had defended Advani.

The party sought to explain the circumstances under which Advani termed Mohammad Ali Jinnah as secular during his recent visit to Pakistan.

``BJP appreciates the Pakistan government`s invitation to Advani to lay the foundation stone of the restoration of portion of Katasraj temple, revered by all Hindus of the Indian subcontinent,`` the resolution said.

``It was in this context that Advani, without describing Jinnah as secular, reminded the people of Pakistan of its founder`s address to the country`s constitutent assembly in which he had urged full freedom of faith for all its citizens and no discrimination between its citizens on grounds of religion,`` M Venkaiah Naidu, vice-president of the party explained.

Vajpayee praised Advani for his leadership and Advani in turn expressed his gratitude to the party leadership and office bearers who stood by him in the crisis.

``I have decided to acceed to your request and not to press for my resignation,`` Advani said amidst applause from those present at the meeting.

nakhok #: You had, earlier, made a comment about Jinnah`s lack of popularity in various part of Pakistan. I had asked you if, ``you have any statements from its leaders denouncing Jinnah?``

Were you able to find anything from these parties` current leaders............

Dost-Mittar #411: It was obviously a political ploy. I had mentioned, in my earlier post, that experienced politicians like Advani, do not make such moves, without a reason. One doesn`t support anti-Muslim behavior so emotionally one`s whole life, and completely switch to the other side, in a day.

I don`t see what he would gain from this, though, at an electoral level. Pakistanis are not going to change their opinion, about him, even if started living in a tent on Quaid`s mizaar`s lawns, and washed it everyday. And, while I don`t know much about Indian politics, I don`t think Indian Muslims will start viewing him as a moderate all of sudden, because he has had a re-awakening about Ayodhya being wrong.

So he doesn`t gain anything there.

He does lose the support of his real votebase - the hardcore types in the BJP - however. You can see their reaction on this site.

So he gains nothing and loses something. Why did he do it then? I still think it must be internal BJP politics. He was being threatened, and he decided to let his party know that if they sidelined him, he could bring the whole party down. Apparently, they got the message. And now will not sideline him any more............

d-M

That`s reminiscent of the Theory of Karma gone haywire, or the Principle of Allah`s Will gone window shopping. :)

Adani agrees to withdraw his resignation.

If this was all a pre-planned tamasha, I would have to say that I had under-estimated the man`s scheming mind.

Re: # 409

Since Nakhok raises the same issue periodically... I`ll quote from Fuzair`s eloquent post:

#98 Separate Destinies? on February 26, 2004

``Wali Khan thinks that Pakistan was a British plan because Ch. Zafrullah looked at a draft of the Lahore Resolution and cleaned up the language. So what? Wali Khan thinks that Jinnah was a British Agent. So what? No other biographer of Jinnah`s has ever made this charge. Wali Khan was a diehard Congress sympathizer. Zafrullah personally denied Wali Khan`s allegations and, in the absence of corroboration (e.g., declassified Indian Office memos that say ``Our agent Zafrullah has come up with the perfect wedge issues....), I think Wali Khan is a senile old man who is venting his bile. Wolpert, THE biographer of Jinnah, dismissed Wali Khan`s accusations about Jinnah out of hand. There is absolutely NO evidence to back Wali (and Nakhok`s) ridiculous assertions. ``


Given Jinnah`s regard and admiration for the Ahmadis .... Mr Wali Khan is simply playing on the popular myth that Ahmadis were British agents. Nothing else. T.O.P.P proves what Fuzair wrote in this post