Union Strike One
Rezwan Bajwa June 14, 2005
#61 Posted by ali_1 on June 16, 2005 7:59:36 am
#60 tahmed32, don`t be ridiculous.... how can he take pictures in that position... he is holding the lota with one hand and his dhoti with the other.....
reply to this interact
write a new interact
add to favorites
flag objectionable content
#60 Posted by tahmed32 on June 16, 2005 7:02:34 am
cayenne #46 I think i saw you at mumbai airport. I was taking an early morning connecting flight from mumbai a few years ago, and from the plane could clearly see you and your colleagues in a large collection of ramshackle huts squatting next to a wall answering the call of nature.
Any ``pics`` of that in your collection of pics of ultra-modern india that you routinely post on chowk while also advising us Pakistanis how we are doomed? :-)
Any ``pics`` of that in your collection of pics of ultra-modern india that you routinely post on chowk while also advising us Pakistanis how we are doomed? :-)
#59 Posted by Romair on June 16, 2005 6:08:31 am
cayenne# : You seem bent upon turning every article into an India-Pak affair and contest. Why is that? This article is a discussion on labor unions and privitization in Pakistan. What is gained by turning it into an India-Pak contest.
How about this. Let`s assume that India is the best thing to ever happen to mankind. It is generations ahead of Pakistan and the rest of Asia. Would that be enough to keep you satisfied?
How about this. Let`s assume that India is the best thing to ever happen to mankind. It is generations ahead of Pakistan and the rest of Asia. Would that be enough to keep you satisfied?
#58 Posted by Urstruly on June 16, 2005 4:58:41 am
GUESS WHO WANTS TO KEEP US POOR AND FEDUCIARY DEPENDENT
#57 Posted by bongdongs on June 16, 2005 12:16:53 am
#56
mirchu-bahu tum bhi kya khoj ke nikalte ho, zhakas!
mirchu-bahu tum bhi kya khoj ke nikalte ho, zhakas!
#56 Posted by cayenne on June 15, 2005 11:38:28 pm
Re: # 42
Aha_Snarl
Check out this link.Pics showing all that is good and bad about Mumbai.Isn`t one of the purposes of this site to foster better understanding of one another`s countries?.So, why belittle me for doing what i can on my side?.One photo shows an Israeli tourist reading an `India` guide in yiddish and in the background an indian flag stuck in a railing.Did he put it there?.He`s more patriotic than you are, then...............
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=225105
Aha_Snarl
Check out this link.Pics showing all that is good and bad about Mumbai.Isn`t one of the purposes of this site to foster better understanding of one another`s countries?.So, why belittle me for doing what i can on my side?.One photo shows an Israeli tourist reading an `India` guide in yiddish and in the background an indian flag stuck in a railing.Did he put it there?.He`s more patriotic than you are, then...............
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=225105
#55 Posted by cayenne on June 15, 2005 10:45:50 pm
Re: # 42
I will crow and i will gloat.`Cause, despite people like you, India has achieved a level of sustenance that has confounded even its` best proponents.YES, we do have a long ways to go.But , i ask you, wouldn`t you put on you best clothes when you have visitors over to your house?.I do not for one moment try to hide all that is ``ugly`` or undeveloped.Everything is there for all to see.I put my best foot forward, hoping that seeing what we have achieved , others will appreciate what we have done and help us alleviate all or almost all of our problems or even emulate what is good.I as a citizen of another country gave up a career in a major multinational to live in India and partake of everything that is good and bad about us and contribute my little bit towards the development of my native region and all of India as a consequence, i hope!!!.I do plan to return back to the land of my birth , but i atleast will have the satisfaction that i gave something to India.And that is my personal prerogative.
New Delhi has done a bang-up job in developing the metro system, under budget and in record time and that is a note-worthy achievement for the local govt. there and for the commuters.Why not spread the good word and invite people to look at pictures of it?.The subway is real , is functioning and at nominal costs that even the poorest can afford.We can all learn from each other and just as i do take your criticism in the right spirit, why can`t paks look at India`s achievements in the right spirit and acknowledge them?.They`re having tremendous problems reconciling their military run state with the concept of a free market economy.They can`t have their cake and eat it.I offer our perspective.
AND, you are perverse.And, what makes you think you aren`t being monitored?..Big brother is everywhere.
I will crow and i will gloat.`Cause, despite people like you, India has achieved a level of sustenance that has confounded even its` best proponents.YES, we do have a long ways to go.But , i ask you, wouldn`t you put on you best clothes when you have visitors over to your house?.I do not for one moment try to hide all that is ``ugly`` or undeveloped.Everything is there for all to see.I put my best foot forward, hoping that seeing what we have achieved , others will appreciate what we have done and help us alleviate all or almost all of our problems or even emulate what is good.I as a citizen of another country gave up a career in a major multinational to live in India and partake of everything that is good and bad about us and contribute my little bit towards the development of my native region and all of India as a consequence, i hope!!!.I do plan to return back to the land of my birth , but i atleast will have the satisfaction that i gave something to India.And that is my personal prerogative.
New Delhi has done a bang-up job in developing the metro system, under budget and in record time and that is a note-worthy achievement for the local govt. there and for the commuters.Why not spread the good word and invite people to look at pictures of it?.The subway is real , is functioning and at nominal costs that even the poorest can afford.We can all learn from each other and just as i do take your criticism in the right spirit, why can`t paks look at India`s achievements in the right spirit and acknowledge them?.They`re having tremendous problems reconciling their military run state with the concept of a free market economy.They can`t have their cake and eat it.I offer our perspective.
AND, you are perverse.And, what makes you think you aren`t being monitored?..Big brother is everywhere.
#54 Posted by faisaluno on June 15, 2005 9:16:57 pm
business recorder has the best take on the saga of ptcl privatisation. private sector is the only thing besides the army that works in pak. quite an achievement in my opinion given the hurdles it has to overcome:
http://www.brecorder.com/index.php?id=281698&currPageNo=1&query=&search=&term=&supDate=
PTCL: Bumpy ride to privatisation
...All through the nineties, various governments have worked towards the privatisation of PTCL. The process was started with turning the Telephone and Telegraph Department into a corporate entity (PTCL). Public offering of 12 percent shares of the company was made in two stages. Local offering fetched Rs 3 billion and international book running (through Jardine Flemings) amounted to just under $900 million.
...Since allegations of kick-backs were made on the sub-underwriting of the international offering (by ARY, Dubai) the Nawaz Sharif government focused more on getting Benazir Bhutto/Asif Zardari investigated than on privatising PTCL. After the 1999 military take-over, progress on PTCL`s privatisation slowed down due to the negative international fall-out.
...As soon as other entrants were given permission in the cellular field, they stole a march over it. During the last decade PTCL fixed lines grew from 3 to 5 million, while cell phone population rose to over 10 million. Out of 10 million mobile phones, PTCL`s Ufone has 2.2 million subscribers as against 6.5 million with Mobilink.
As a provider of internet services PTCL`s Paknet is also far behind the market leader, Cybernet. And, now that PTCL`s monopoly over fixed line telephony has come to an end and wireless loop services are freely available, PTCL`s hold on its main revenue earner over time will also be diluted. Unless the company can efficiently reorient itself to meet the challenge to become a first class service provider in the telecommunication field, it would continue to go downhill.
It is presently shackled with government rules and procedures in decision making. As a consequence, the company cannot undertake quick and timely decisions to meet the competitive challenge.
What baffles us is the fact that political parties - like PPP and PML (N) - when in power were in favour of privatising PTCL, but now they want to politically capitalise on opposing the sell-off. Those employed before 1996 continue to enjoy job security given to civil servants up to the retirement age. They constitute 70 percent of the work force.
The rest also have guaranteed jobs. And removals, if any, have to be under a generous package. It is a combined failure of our intelligence agencies, the management of PTCL and the Privatisation Commission not to have foreseen the stiff resistance mounted by the 14 unions of the employees. In the absence of a Collective Bargaining Agent (CBA), due to court cases between competing unions, the task of holding a meaningful and constructive dialogue has become even more difficult for the government.
With the political opposition bent on encashing the controversy for its own benefit, the government has had to give much more in terms of job security and other pecuniary benefits which would entail a huge financial cost of Rs 3.8 billion or more.
This cost would be discounted in their valuation by the buyers, that is, it is to be ultimately borne by the tax payer. The unions` demand to have the final say in valuation of the company is just meaningless. There is a structured process, involving professional valuations, undertaking an exhaustive exercise spread over six to 10 months.
....For the last five years we have been advocating removal of the companies earmarked for privatisation from their respective ministries and entrusting the oversight to the Privatisation Commission. But the politicians as well as bureaucrats do not believe in giving up their power. First they blocked the denationalisation of taken-over units despite a commitment from General Zia-ul-Haq. A change in the mindset and firm policy principle that it is not the job of the government to be in business, is yet to take hold in this country even in the ruling party.
It is now indeed a defining moment for the Musharraf government. If the General means what he says regarding the good that will come out of privatisation, he must use everything at his command to remove all the obstacles.
The acid test lies in not only keeping Pakistan`s communication network operational but also in getting the parliamentary approval for amendments in laws, as may be committed to the buyers. So let us belt up for a bumpy ride ahead. The goal of handing over PTCL to a bidder on time has to be met, if we are to successfully privatise other government run business monopolies.
#53 Posted by faisaluno on June 15, 2005 9:06:16 pm
i stand corrected on engro being the largest fertilizer company in pak. i have been out of pak for over five years and i did not take into account, acquisition made by fauji fertilizer since i have been out. however the point i was trying to make still stands which is that a commercial army-linked entity does not have a monopoly in any sector it operates and that most of these companies are very efficient. also both fauji fertilizer (ff) and fauji fertilizer bin qasim (ffbq) are publically listed entities. fauji foundation owns 44% stake in ff and 17% stake ffbl while ff owns 45% stake in ffbc. in terms of operating efficiency of these entities, here are the views of an analyst at akd securities on ff:
`` ...Efficient plant and largest de-bottlenecking capacity! FFC has the most efficient plant in
the country with average gas consumption of about 27MBTU per tonne. The company has faced no major set backs in terms of urea production unlike some other players and has been running comfortably above its rated capacity for more than a decade now. With total rated capacity of about 1.9mn tonnes, FFC also has the potential to expand its urea capacity by 260k tonnes. This de-bottlenecking capacity, which is likely to come online in mid 2007, should help FFC in absorbing
excess demand...``
quote is from a report titled ``Fertilizer Sector - Overweight Riding on strong pricing power!``. report is available on bloomberg.
#52 Posted by Pakfin on June 15, 2005 7:49:52 pm
I am surprised to see the author`s support of the strike by the PTCL employees. The question here is why are they agitating against privatisation? Clearly the corrupt and inefficient employees of PTCL fear that it would be difficult for them to survive in an organisation run on the basis of customer service and efficiency rather than one whereindifference towards customers and leakage of resources abounds.
#51 Posted by Romair on June 15, 2005 4:54:09 pm
Apparently, the labor unions have settled with the govt./management..........
``Five more labour unions accepted the PTCL incentive package and withdrew their reservations about the company’s privatisation...............The new agreement assured complete job security to contractual employees for over two years, with earned leave encashment raised from 140 days to 150 besides 35 per cent increase in their salaries instead of 30 per cent announced earlier.
The incentives package is now worth Rs 3 billion. The educational grant has been increased from 500 per cent to 550 per cent, which would be applicable from July 1.`` www.jang.com.pk
``Five more labour unions accepted the PTCL incentive package and withdrew their reservations about the company’s privatisation...............The new agreement assured complete job security to contractual employees for over two years, with earned leave encashment raised from 140 days to 150 besides 35 per cent increase in their salaries instead of 30 per cent announced earlier.
The incentives package is now worth Rs 3 billion. The educational grant has been increased from 500 per cent to 550 per cent, which would be applicable from July 1.`` www.jang.com.pk
#50 Posted by Romair on June 15, 2005 4:41:16 pm
Aha_Snark #48: ``It`s possible that what`s galvanised them from their lackadaisical attitude earlier is the entry of the private sector into hitherto unprotected areas such as telecommunications and transportation. So have a mixed economy.``
The question is not of privitization. The question is actually of efficiency. If a govt. owned institution can operate efficiently, then there is nothing wrong with it. National Bank is govt. owned bank. Yet it is the highest performing and the largest bank in Pakistan, now.
The problem is that bloated organizations can never survive if they are opened up to competition, in a, ``mixed`` economy. How will an airline that has twice as many employees as it should, yet provides half the customer serivice that it should survive against an equally large private airline, that has exactly the right number of employees? It is simple economics.
If another airline of 50 aircraft opened up in Pakistan, PIA would go under. Similarly, any overstaffed telco will go under if it is opened up to competition. The only way for it to stay afloat is to downsize and increase its efficiency. In which case, it will be doing the same thing that privitization would do.
In addition, private companies will not enter a market that does not have a level playing field. And all the extra costs of the bloated govt. organizations are being passed onto the customer, or being paid for by the taxpayer. Money that could be used on other things.......
What happened in Argentina is not going to happen everywhere. What the govt. needs to be careful of is selling the assets of at the correct price, and in a manner where the overall job creation and economy of Pakistan grows, i.e. don`t hand off the gas companies to Exxon and let them take all the gas at throwaway prices..........
It is the govt`s. job to provide health care and education to its citizens, through the taxpayers` money. It is not the govts. job to give the taxpayers money away to overstaffed companies.............
The question is not of privitization. The question is actually of efficiency. If a govt. owned institution can operate efficiently, then there is nothing wrong with it. National Bank is govt. owned bank. Yet it is the highest performing and the largest bank in Pakistan, now.
The problem is that bloated organizations can never survive if they are opened up to competition, in a, ``mixed`` economy. How will an airline that has twice as many employees as it should, yet provides half the customer serivice that it should survive against an equally large private airline, that has exactly the right number of employees? It is simple economics.
If another airline of 50 aircraft opened up in Pakistan, PIA would go under. Similarly, any overstaffed telco will go under if it is opened up to competition. The only way for it to stay afloat is to downsize and increase its efficiency. In which case, it will be doing the same thing that privitization would do.
In addition, private companies will not enter a market that does not have a level playing field. And all the extra costs of the bloated govt. organizations are being passed onto the customer, or being paid for by the taxpayer. Money that could be used on other things.......
What happened in Argentina is not going to happen everywhere. What the govt. needs to be careful of is selling the assets of at the correct price, and in a manner where the overall job creation and economy of Pakistan grows, i.e. don`t hand off the gas companies to Exxon and let them take all the gas at throwaway prices..........
It is the govt`s. job to provide health care and education to its citizens, through the taxpayers` money. It is not the govts. job to give the taxpayers money away to overstaffed companies.............
#49 Posted by Zakkk on June 15, 2005 3:23:34 pm
While I don`t deny the need for core services to be provided to the poor..but the govt has no job in what is purely sectors where the private sector can easily function..
Omair: In addition to the banks you mentioned, the Government also owns Bank fo Khyber, Punjab, Bolan Bank, Housing Building Finance Corporation, PICIC, IDBP, Agriculture Bank..also the government not selling a majority stake to the strategic investor..but it sellng a management stake..there is a distinct difference.
At the same time I do not support dirty tricks in breaking up Unions.
Omair: In addition to the banks you mentioned, the Government also owns Bank fo Khyber, Punjab, Bolan Bank, Housing Building Finance Corporation, PICIC, IDBP, Agriculture Bank..also the government not selling a majority stake to the strategic investor..but it sellng a management stake..there is a distinct difference.
At the same time I do not support dirty tricks in breaking up Unions.
#48 Posted by Aha_Snark on June 15, 2005 2:02:50 pm
Re: # 44
re: JawadJee:
I believe institutions have a social function. The function of Indian Railways, inefficient, corrupt and creaking though it might be, is to provide affordable transportation for 5 billion people a year. Even if it loses money on them. The function of a water service is to provide potable water to every Indian, regardless of his or her capacity to pay market price for it. The function of a healthcare system is to not weigh a patient`s wallet before deciding whether to provide long term care. Or profit from the incident.
And besides all these patent functions, the latent function, of providing support and employment for millions is, in my opinion, critical.
And even apart from these critical functions of transportation, water and health, if a publicly owned corporation is profitable or even breaking even, I strongly oppose Government disinvestment in it, even if it will fetch millions. Every effort must be made to revive and restructure public corporations before selling them off.
Look at Bolivia [1] for an example of breakneck capitalism. Or Argentina [2].
And as for customer service / efficiency, I opened a bank account just a week ago at a leading Indian private bank and in the good old State Bank of India. SBI told me clearly, up front, what documents I would need while the ``account executive`` at the private bank left me with the impression that were I to show up with a used bus ticket, I would have a full fledged bank account.
They were extra courteous indeed and very very anxious that I open the bank account then and there. Once opened, however, my ``account executive`` lost interest and it took ages for the bank to put in place rudimentary standing instructions.
Oh, and as for efficiency,
The completely unglamorous Mr. Ghai at the SBI was neutral, with none of the lickspittle cravenness (unsupported by real world competence) that masquerades for customer service in so many private sector dealings in India. He told me what I needed. Attested copy of passport. Introduction form. two photographs. He scrutinised them carefully (unlike the private sector dude). In 90 minutes, I had opened a savings bank AND a PPF acount, nominated next of kin for both of them, gotten my passbook, applied for my debit card and Internet Banking facility, Issued standing instructions to directly debit my account periodically and was out of there.
In my experience, the state will be much more khadoos but they get the job done. It`s possible that what`s galvanised them from their lackadaisical attitude earlier is the entry of the private sector into hitherto unprotected areas such as telecommunications and transportation. So have a mixed economy. There`s no reason to treat liberalisation as an economic imperative or an inevitability.
Cuba? As in the Human Development Index ? It`s Gini Coefficient ?
I`d rather have a country such as the scandinavian ones with their ``inefficent`` safety nets rather than a robber baron game preserve.
To recense the Aerosmith song,
``Tax the rich / There`s only one thing that they`re good for``
``Tax the rich / Take one slab now and come back for more``
(that`s a joke. but only just)
Cheers,
A_S
[1] http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1504058,00.html
[2] http://americas.irc-online.org/articles/2004/0410argentdebt.html
re: JawadJee:
I believe institutions have a social function. The function of Indian Railways, inefficient, corrupt and creaking though it might be, is to provide affordable transportation for 5 billion people a year. Even if it loses money on them. The function of a water service is to provide potable water to every Indian, regardless of his or her capacity to pay market price for it. The function of a healthcare system is to not weigh a patient`s wallet before deciding whether to provide long term care. Or profit from the incident.
And besides all these patent functions, the latent function, of providing support and employment for millions is, in my opinion, critical.
And even apart from these critical functions of transportation, water and health, if a publicly owned corporation is profitable or even breaking even, I strongly oppose Government disinvestment in it, even if it will fetch millions. Every effort must be made to revive and restructure public corporations before selling them off.
Look at Bolivia [1] for an example of breakneck capitalism. Or Argentina [2].
And as for customer service / efficiency, I opened a bank account just a week ago at a leading Indian private bank and in the good old State Bank of India. SBI told me clearly, up front, what documents I would need while the ``account executive`` at the private bank left me with the impression that were I to show up with a used bus ticket, I would have a full fledged bank account.
They were extra courteous indeed and very very anxious that I open the bank account then and there. Once opened, however, my ``account executive`` lost interest and it took ages for the bank to put in place rudimentary standing instructions.
Oh, and as for efficiency,
The completely unglamorous Mr. Ghai at the SBI was neutral, with none of the lickspittle cravenness (unsupported by real world competence) that masquerades for customer service in so many private sector dealings in India. He told me what I needed. Attested copy of passport. Introduction form. two photographs. He scrutinised them carefully (unlike the private sector dude). In 90 minutes, I had opened a savings bank AND a PPF acount, nominated next of kin for both of them, gotten my passbook, applied for my debit card and Internet Banking facility, Issued standing instructions to directly debit my account periodically and was out of there.
In my experience, the state will be much more khadoos but they get the job done. It`s possible that what`s galvanised them from their lackadaisical attitude earlier is the entry of the private sector into hitherto unprotected areas such as telecommunications and transportation. So have a mixed economy. There`s no reason to treat liberalisation as an economic imperative or an inevitability.
Cuba? As in the Human Development Index ? It`s Gini Coefficient ?
I`d rather have a country such as the scandinavian ones with their ``inefficent`` safety nets rather than a robber baron game preserve.
To recense the Aerosmith song,
``Tax the rich / There`s only one thing that they`re good for``
``Tax the rich / Take one slab now and come back for more``
(that`s a joke. but only just)
Cheers,
A_S
[1] http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1504058,00.html
[2] http://americas.irc-online.org/articles/2004/0410argentdebt.html
#47 Posted by Romair on June 15, 2005 1:50:11 pm
The primary job of every govt., specifically in poor countries, is to reduce poverty. Everything else comes a very distant second. This includes things like establishing religion or establishing secularism. Running marathons or stopping marathons etc……In case of poor countries, even elections are secondary, if they cannot reduce poverty….…In the end, countries only come out of the third-world by getting poverty to very low figures.
Pakistan did a very good job of economic growth till the early 70s. It went from nowhere in South Asia, in 1947, to being the country with the most potential within 20 years of its formation. That momentum even carried it through two more decades. By 1990, Pakistan had a historically low poverty rate of 18% or so. One more good decade at 6% and we would have been in single digits.
However, things went haywire in the lost decade of the 90s. And by 2000, the poverty rate was at 30% and getting higher at phenomenal rates. For the past 15 years, every year more people have been added below the poverty line. Finally, for the first time in 15 years, this year, Pakistan has again started lowering its poverty figures, i.e. it has finally turned the corner. Last year, there were 45 million people in Pakistan below the poverty line. This year, due to consistently high economic growth rates, there has been a ten percent reduction, i.e. 5 million people have been taken out of poverty!!
Another ten years of this, and we will be in single digit poverty figures…………What can be more important than that?
How is poverty reduced? It is reduced by bringing tens of millions of people above the poverty line. That can only be done by growing the economy, as a whole, which creates genuine jobs. It is not reduced by creating fake jobs in gigantic publicly owned monopolies, and employing people there. In such a scenario, just to give 10,000 people a free ride, the country ends up adding a far larger group below the poverty line………..
Pakistan did a very good job of economic growth till the early 70s. It went from nowhere in South Asia, in 1947, to being the country with the most potential within 20 years of its formation. That momentum even carried it through two more decades. By 1990, Pakistan had a historically low poverty rate of 18% or so. One more good decade at 6% and we would have been in single digits.
However, things went haywire in the lost decade of the 90s. And by 2000, the poverty rate was at 30% and getting higher at phenomenal rates. For the past 15 years, every year more people have been added below the poverty line. Finally, for the first time in 15 years, this year, Pakistan has again started lowering its poverty figures, i.e. it has finally turned the corner. Last year, there were 45 million people in Pakistan below the poverty line. This year, due to consistently high economic growth rates, there has been a ten percent reduction, i.e. 5 million people have been taken out of poverty!!
Another ten years of this, and we will be in single digit poverty figures…………What can be more important than that?
How is poverty reduced? It is reduced by bringing tens of millions of people above the poverty line. That can only be done by growing the economy, as a whole, which creates genuine jobs. It is not reduced by creating fake jobs in gigantic publicly owned monopolies, and employing people there. In such a scenario, just to give 10,000 people a free ride, the country ends up adding a far larger group below the poverty line………..
#46 Posted by Aha_Snark on June 15, 2005 12:57:38 pm
Re: # 37
re: cayenne:
just read interact #42 again.
Oh, and I`m still waiting for the call from the Home Ministry or ``Indian Intelligence``. Maybe you should call them again. And if they hang up on you, don`t give up. Keep trying until they ask for your name and address. That`s how they distinguish the serious, patriotic Indians from the pinko JNU types.
cheers,
A_S
re: cayenne:
just read interact #42 again.
Oh, and I`m still waiting for the call from the Home Ministry or ``Indian Intelligence``. Maybe you should call them again. And if they hang up on you, don`t give up. Keep trying until they ask for your name and address. That`s how they distinguish the serious, patriotic Indians from the pinko JNU types.
cheers,
A_S
#45 Posted by Urstruly on June 15, 2005 12:56:06 pm
The fact of the matter is that I do not want a fascist regime of foreign puppets to sell national assets without impunity or accountability. My Salute to Kudos to the PTCL union and its employees who took a stand against this criminals who controls this population by anti-terrorism laws for minor infractions like jay walking.
In a country where government has no accountability towards its people, considers its law and its constitution worth nothing more than toilet paper; where population thinks that the phrases like ``social security net`` and ``consumers rights`` are the names of some animals that live in Africa, what is the purpose of free market economy. Free market economy is a trap for third world countries to capture and occupy its institutions and means of production by International Consortium of thugs in the name of globalization and free economy.
I must caution all Pakistanis not to be beguiled by these charming phraseolgy. They are just a trap. Unless there is representation there is no taxation and definitely not privatization.
Capitalist kanjar murdabad
Capitalist`s agents, fauji roddents thaa
Chughtay, pughtay, lam dheeng ke pughtay thaa.
#44 Posted by JawadJee on June 15, 2005 12:53:26 pm
And btw, where on God`s earth Mr BTS you’ve learnt that the Indian success story was purely led by the govt? Are the software companies in Banglore nationalised? Are those hugely successful conglomerates credited with paying huge taxes that the research thrives on owned by the govt? Have you even been following the privatisation efforts (albeit being resisted by the people of your school) that is taking place in India today? If making conditions favourable for the private companies to flourish is a govt-led miracle, let’s have some of that in Pakistan.
Why do we in Pakistan have to be the last ones to catch up???? Oh hang on, I may know the answer: coz we have many a change-sceptic among ourselves who would only do something if it says so in a book published in the 1960s!!! Not all questions have to be ideological; some may be allowed to find their answers in the good old common sense....
If you have read as much as your first posting portrays, you should know that there is no silver bullet, no universal solution to a nation’s turn of fortunes. Nations have to find their own new ways. I don’t see policy makers in the West looking to working examples elsewhere when they encounter new problems! And I think forums such as this should encourage and foster that healthy debate above all.
Nationalisation of a company amounts to feeding fish to a subset of society that is employed by that company, whereas by forcing a company to streamline (in the face of shareholders’ accountability) may be the only way to teach those it employs how to fish. With all your disagreements, hope you’ll find a way to agree with me on one thing, that in Pakistan both public sector companies and their workforce need to be more efficient – unless, of course, you can reach for a thick enough book and look up an example from history that has proven that large nationalised companies somewhere in an ideal part of this world, managed to cut costs for any reasonable length of time while being overstaffed and plagued with corruption and nepotism. A lean, efficient public-sector organisation is indeed a rare animal!
I agree that perhaps privatisation will breed a crop of ultra-rich industrialists, new or old-timers, but hey, that’s still happening and you and I can do nothing about it! Apparently the Army has got a real taste for the good stuff now! At least privatisation has a chance to bring in good working practices, and changes to work ethics. Currently, it’s just waste all around: of resources due to lack of suitable technology and local market-driven research to properly utilise them, and of people due to public sector companies. The Nation is the one that loses in the end!
Why do we in Pakistan have to be the last ones to catch up???? Oh hang on, I may know the answer: coz we have many a change-sceptic among ourselves who would only do something if it says so in a book published in the 1960s!!! Not all questions have to be ideological; some may be allowed to find their answers in the good old common sense....
If you have read as much as your first posting portrays, you should know that there is no silver bullet, no universal solution to a nation’s turn of fortunes. Nations have to find their own new ways. I don’t see policy makers in the West looking to working examples elsewhere when they encounter new problems! And I think forums such as this should encourage and foster that healthy debate above all.
Nationalisation of a company amounts to feeding fish to a subset of society that is employed by that company, whereas by forcing a company to streamline (in the face of shareholders’ accountability) may be the only way to teach those it employs how to fish. With all your disagreements, hope you’ll find a way to agree with me on one thing, that in Pakistan both public sector companies and their workforce need to be more efficient – unless, of course, you can reach for a thick enough book and look up an example from history that has proven that large nationalised companies somewhere in an ideal part of this world, managed to cut costs for any reasonable length of time while being overstaffed and plagued with corruption and nepotism. A lean, efficient public-sector organisation is indeed a rare animal!
I agree that perhaps privatisation will breed a crop of ultra-rich industrialists, new or old-timers, but hey, that’s still happening and you and I can do nothing about it! Apparently the Army has got a real taste for the good stuff now! At least privatisation has a chance to bring in good working practices, and changes to work ethics. Currently, it’s just waste all around: of resources due to lack of suitable technology and local market-driven research to properly utilise them, and of people due to public sector companies. The Nation is the one that loses in the end!
#43 Posted by Urstruly on June 15, 2005 12:45:30 pm
CHRONICLES OF BANANA REPUBLIC
(Readers: please dont tell Hindus what it tells about them in the first part)
(Readers: please dont tell Hindus what it tells about them in the first part)
#42 Posted by Aha_Snark on June 15, 2005 12:44:40 pm
Re: # 9
re: cayenne:
You know, your crowing and gloating about India on EACH AND EVERY SINGLE thread about Pakistan is really really crass. Totally uncool. Oh, and just b`cause i`m feeling peverse, here`s a word by word rebuttal.
///Well, click on these links and see what an open, democratic society, free market economics and multiculturalism is doing to your very large neighbor to your east....///
More photos from skyscrapercities ? How come no photos of urban India, at street level, shot during the day ? Of street kids sniffing Erasex one kilometre from the President`s Estate ? Of the choking crowds at the Bombay Virar train ? Of slumdwellers crapping on Marina Beach before the middleclass morning walkers arrive ? How come your links always show the skyline during night, when ad hoc construction is invisible and sodium vapour casts a star wars glow on our urban visage ? Or crowds frantically consuming fast food at elite eating joints ? Or natural scenery?
And as for your points,
///Open///
Sure. Open enough to have ratings, not enforce cuts in movies [1] Open enough to tolerate [2] the shooting of a film on a high caste widow and a low caste man.
/// Democratic ///
Booth capturing ? The ``allotment`` of areas by party thugs to a party so that only a token number of known opponents of the thugs` patrons are allowed to vote in a particular area ? The profoundly undemocratic and non-participative functioning of the administrative system?
///Free market economics///
Please. are you really saying India is a free market economy ? Oh and I`ll believe in free market a lot more when I can trash a McDonalds` carton and know that no human being will retrieve it from it`s stinking hole and lick the mayonnaise from my scraps.
///Multiculturalism///
Of course. Just ask the next ``chinky`` you see how Indian he feels / is made to feel. Or for that matter, how ``chinky`` the next mallu you meet feels.
India IS, in many ways, open, free, democratic, possessed of vast enterpreneurial spirit, and overwhelmingly multicultural. The point, dear cayenne, is that when describing India, all adjectives are simultaneously true. it is exhilarating and wretched, good and bad, beautiful and godawful-ugly at the same time. The profane really does rub shoulders (and sometimes bodies) with the sublime. Try not to present only one side of the picture. ESPECIALLY on completely unrelated boards. Your words appear to be either cynical and uncultured gloating and therefore without credibility or naive boosting of the ``my country right or wrong`` variety and also, again, without credibility.
Can we get back to the topic now ? It was about the privatization of a telecommunications corporation in PAKISTAN. If you have anything to say on the topic of telecommunications, privatization or Pakistan, please do so. In boards long past, you`ve shown the ability to think for yourself when nationalities, religions and Pakistan are not involved. Those interacts were well worth reading. Thank you again for them.
Cheers and my apologies if my words have offended you personally in any way.
A_S
[1] http://www.cflr.org/FOS/cover.html
[2] http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/feb2000/film-f12.shtml
re: cayenne:
You know, your crowing and gloating about India on EACH AND EVERY SINGLE thread about Pakistan is really really crass. Totally uncool. Oh, and just b`cause i`m feeling peverse, here`s a word by word rebuttal.
///Well, click on these links and see what an open, democratic society, free market economics and multiculturalism is doing to your very large neighbor to your east....///
More photos from skyscrapercities ? How come no photos of urban India, at street level, shot during the day ? Of street kids sniffing Erasex one kilometre from the President`s Estate ? Of the choking crowds at the Bombay Virar train ? Of slumdwellers crapping on Marina Beach before the middleclass morning walkers arrive ? How come your links always show the skyline during night, when ad hoc construction is invisible and sodium vapour casts a star wars glow on our urban visage ? Or crowds frantically consuming fast food at elite eating joints ? Or natural scenery?
And as for your points,
///Open///
Sure. Open enough to have ratings, not enforce cuts in movies [1] Open enough to tolerate [2] the shooting of a film on a high caste widow and a low caste man.
/// Democratic ///
Booth capturing ? The ``allotment`` of areas by party thugs to a party so that only a token number of known opponents of the thugs` patrons are allowed to vote in a particular area ? The profoundly undemocratic and non-participative functioning of the administrative system?
///Free market economics///
Please. are you really saying India is a free market economy ? Oh and I`ll believe in free market a lot more when I can trash a McDonalds` carton and know that no human being will retrieve it from it`s stinking hole and lick the mayonnaise from my scraps.
///Multiculturalism///
Of course. Just ask the next ``chinky`` you see how Indian he feels / is made to feel. Or for that matter, how ``chinky`` the next mallu you meet feels.
India IS, in many ways, open, free, democratic, possessed of vast enterpreneurial spirit, and overwhelmingly multicultural. The point, dear cayenne, is that when describing India, all adjectives are simultaneously true. it is exhilarating and wretched, good and bad, beautiful and godawful-ugly at the same time. The profane really does rub shoulders (and sometimes bodies) with the sublime. Try not to present only one side of the picture. ESPECIALLY on completely unrelated boards. Your words appear to be either cynical and uncultured gloating and therefore without credibility or naive boosting of the ``my country right or wrong`` variety and also, again, without credibility.
Can we get back to the topic now ? It was about the privatization of a telecommunications corporation in PAKISTAN. If you have anything to say on the topic of telecommunications, privatization or Pakistan, please do so. In boards long past, you`ve shown the ability to think for yourself when nationalities, religions and Pakistan are not involved. Those interacts were well worth reading. Thank you again for them.
Cheers and my apologies if my words have offended you personally in any way.
A_S
[1] http://www.cflr.org/FOS/cover.html
[2] http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/feb2000/film-f12.shtml
#41 Posted by JawadJee on June 15, 2005 11:45:52 am
I`m not only sorry to hear a criticism based on `examples from history`, but disappointed too. My guess is that instead of following the reading habits of those you criticise, you have read a few books that are perhaps well out of date! I for one will take those more seriously who have acquired their knowledge by recent prints.
As it happened, all those who have contributed so far didn`t really pretend to be scholarly - merely stated what was happening on the ground in Pakistan, and suggested a way out. You are the first one to come along and start throwing history while looking down on all who may not have read the literature you have read.
I hope your voice will be as irrelevant on this forum, as it has become among all those nations that are trying to deal with TODAY by finding tailored solutions to their problems. And you know who they find getting in the way? People like your good self who have only one argument to stop national innovation: IT HASN’T HAPPENED ANYWHERE ELSE BEFORE! Well, look at the Western nations who didn’t let this sort of mentality seep into their national psyche, and look where they are!!!
Enough time you`ve spent away from books, time to go back perhaps?
But if you do decide to hang around, c`mon do give us a condescending lecture on how what you perceive as liberal policies have ruined certain nations. Examples/counterexamples would be welcomed, although I`ll urge my friends here to not let history dictate what their options may be in future.
All we should be interested in is the solutions to OUR problems TODAY, and I`m sure we have enough talented people amongst ourselves who can see what`s wrong with the current systems that breeds corruption, and perpetuates the misery of the nation.
As it happened, all those who have contributed so far didn`t really pretend to be scholarly - merely stated what was happening on the ground in Pakistan, and suggested a way out. You are the first one to come along and start throwing history while looking down on all who may not have read the literature you have read.
I hope your voice will be as irrelevant on this forum, as it has become among all those nations that are trying to deal with TODAY by finding tailored solutions to their problems. And you know who they find getting in the way? People like your good self who have only one argument to stop national innovation: IT HASN’T HAPPENED ANYWHERE ELSE BEFORE! Well, look at the Western nations who didn’t let this sort of mentality seep into their national psyche, and look where they are!!!
Enough time you`ve spent away from books, time to go back perhaps?
But if you do decide to hang around, c`mon do give us a condescending lecture on how what you perceive as liberal policies have ruined certain nations. Examples/counterexamples would be welcomed, although I`ll urge my friends here to not let history dictate what their options may be in future.
All we should be interested in is the solutions to OUR problems TODAY, and I`m sure we have enough talented people amongst ourselves who can see what`s wrong with the current systems that breeds corruption, and perpetuates the misery of the nation.
#40 Posted by HRJami on June 15, 2005 11:39:39 am
Dear Friends,
I am sick and admitted in hospital. So first of all plz pray for my health.
plz before giving comments on this article plz try to read in between the line. It is not basically about privatization and not in the favour of PTCL workers but it is stating some other story. The issue is over beacuse of the loyal PTCl people but the writer wanted something eles. This article had less for the PTCL people and more for the people like ROZIBA................ Sorry friend you are the losser once again
Note for Roziba.If you are personally hurt by someone plz do not curse the whole insitution there are people those who love it. And you see while sitting at CHOWK you talk like that.
#39 Posted by bts on June 15, 2005 11:21:37 am
and yes, my post especially was directed at:
faisaluno, haroonellahi, and JawadJEE.
And just in case you haven`t figured: I am vehemently against P-ing the PTCL, and firing the workers. Because the state, I believe, has a social function.
And for those of you who still insist on State`s function being a privitzer, because privitization seems to increase efficiency, I am sure a day will come when Microsoft or Ruper Murdoch will be bidding for the Pakistani State and you all will be ...
faisaluno, haroonellahi, and JawadJEE.
And just in case you haven`t figured: I am vehemently against P-ing the PTCL, and firing the workers. Because the state, I believe, has a social function.
And for those of you who still insist on State`s function being a privitzer, because privitization seems to increase efficiency, I am sure a day will come when Microsoft or Ruper Murdoch will be bidding for the Pakistani State and you all will be ...
#38 Posted by bts on June 15, 2005 11:14:32 am
HO HO HO!
A neo-liberal gallore! So how many people here have studied the impact of the free-market and globalisation and the spread of hunger, disease, and other such malignancies since the mid-80s - when Reagan and Thatcher gave this paradigm a new life?
Listen. And I come straight at all those defending the Pee word - please quote with reference the success stories of the market - and do exclude China and India which have been state-led development miracles and not market led miracles. (and for those who have not studied any developmental history at ALL, PLEASE dont even mention the East Asian Miracle).
I wish I could give a short lesson in the history of the neo-liberal policies and the impact (economic, social, political) that these policies have had on the countries who have implemented these. but i will not. because for those who understand and have their eyes and ears and heads open, will already have seen how Pakistan has been impacted - because they look beyond the GDP (which was, btw, dumped by the the ``FIRST`` world twenty years back - but our general seems to have a fixation with), to other and more `uneconomical` and `inefficient` measures such as the gini coefficient and the HDI, will know what great a screwup this regime has been.
So, please. I urge all the neo-liberals to:
a. Stop getting your highly developed and scholarly knowledge from Newsweek, Time, GEO and PTV
b. Stop basing your arguments on the bikaoo scholars of Musharraf Inc.`s regime; and
c. look beyond your comfy drawing room and honda civic to the lives of those whose exploits you are wallowing in.
-bilal
A neo-liberal gallore! So how many people here have studied the impact of the free-market and globalisation and the spread of hunger, disease, and other such malignancies since the mid-80s - when Reagan and Thatcher gave this paradigm a new life?
Listen. And I come straight at all those defending the Pee word - please quote with reference the success stories of the market - and do exclude China and India which have been state-led development miracles and not market led miracles. (and for those who have not studied any developmental history at ALL, PLEASE dont even mention the East Asian Miracle).
I wish I could give a short lesson in the history of the neo-liberal policies and the impact (economic, social, political) that these policies have had on the countries who have implemented these. but i will not. because for those who understand and have their eyes and ears and heads open, will already have seen how Pakistan has been impacted - because they look beyond the GDP (which was, btw, dumped by the the ``FIRST`` world twenty years back - but our general seems to have a fixation with), to other and more `uneconomical` and `inefficient` measures such as the gini coefficient and the HDI, will know what great a screwup this regime has been.
So, please. I urge all the neo-liberals to:
a. Stop getting your highly developed and scholarly knowledge from Newsweek, Time, GEO and PTV
b. Stop basing your arguments on the bikaoo scholars of Musharraf Inc.`s regime; and
c. look beyond your comfy drawing room and honda civic to the lives of those whose exploits you are wallowing in.
-bilal
#37 Posted by cayenne on June 15, 2005 11:07:02 am
Re: # 36
Yeah everything`s LEAPING and BOUNDING in PAKland!!.Mukthar Mai`s leaping and bounding too , to the west where your country will get more negative publicity among the common man and woman who influences buying and selling.Check out some really neat pics of Chandigarh.Who knew they had so many parks in that city.....
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=202776
and, Munnar in Kerala.God`s own country..............
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=224492
and, New Delhi`s world class Metro rail system soon to be replicated in major indian metros
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=160749
Heck, we`re privatising everything in india, have been for a while now.How come we`re doing it in a peaceful, orderly and systematic manner??.Oh, we ain`t paks, i guess.
Yeah everything`s LEAPING and BOUNDING in PAKland!!.Mukthar Mai`s leaping and bounding too , to the west where your country will get more negative publicity among the common man and woman who influences buying and selling.Check out some really neat pics of Chandigarh.Who knew they had so many parks in that city.....
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=202776
and, Munnar in Kerala.God`s own country..............
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=224492
and, New Delhi`s world class Metro rail system soon to be replicated in major indian metros
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=160749
Heck, we`re privatising everything in india, have been for a while now.How come we`re doing it in a peaceful, orderly and systematic manner??.Oh, we ain`t paks, i guess.
#36 Posted by Romair on June 15, 2005 10:20:24 am
Mukhlis #33: ``Much like Pakistan Army has filled every lucrative post from Hockey Federation to Telecom Authority to University Chancellorships with retired & serving generals, brigadiers, colonels et al......Whoever has the power, tries to benefit their own.. be it MQM, PPP, PML or PAP (Pakistan Army Party)``
Yes, this is a good analogy.........Which is exactly the benefit of privatizing govt. owned enterprises. Once they are privitized, no govt. organization can place people in their - be they policians, Army, beaurecracy, etc..............
I am all for govt. servants getting competitive salaries (specifically those with qualifications competitive with the private sector). And I am all for govt. servants having to compete in the private sector on their own merit, after retirement. That is what I did.
Placement into organizations like PIA, Railways, PTCL (yes PTCL), PSO, Gas companies, Banks, Fauji Enterprises, etc. will only stop if they are privatized............
The banking sector of Pakistan is, perhaps, the first sector to be fully privitized. This was initiated during Nawaz Sharif`s time. And completed recently. There were massive layoffs. However, the privitization has paid off. Out of the 50 or so banks in Pakistan, only two - National Bank and First Womens Bank - are now owned by the govt. (and Askari owned by the Army Welfare Trust). Due to this, the banking sector is growing, by leaps and bounds..........
In fact, the financial sector of Pakistan has gone through a complete overhaul. The same is now happening to the telecom sector, which is simulaneously growing and being overhauled............My guess is after the privitization of PTCL etc., in a few years, phone calls will be quite cheap in Pakistan.........I have to currently pay 23c/min to make a call to Pakistan, from Canada, on a calling card. Calls to Singapore etc. are 6c/minute or so..........I assume they reason I pay so much is because PTCL charges an overhead on the calls.............Perhaps to pay its over-staffed employees.............
Yes, this is a good analogy.........Which is exactly the benefit of privatizing govt. owned enterprises. Once they are privitized, no govt. organization can place people in their - be they policians, Army, beaurecracy, etc..............
I am all for govt. servants getting competitive salaries (specifically those with qualifications competitive with the private sector). And I am all for govt. servants having to compete in the private sector on their own merit, after retirement. That is what I did.
Placement into organizations like PIA, Railways, PTCL (yes PTCL), PSO, Gas companies, Banks, Fauji Enterprises, etc. will only stop if they are privatized............
The banking sector of Pakistan is, perhaps, the first sector to be fully privitized. This was initiated during Nawaz Sharif`s time. And completed recently. There were massive layoffs. However, the privitization has paid off. Out of the 50 or so banks in Pakistan, only two - National Bank and First Womens Bank - are now owned by the govt. (and Askari owned by the Army Welfare Trust). Due to this, the banking sector is growing, by leaps and bounds..........
In fact, the financial sector of Pakistan has gone through a complete overhaul. The same is now happening to the telecom sector, which is simulaneously growing and being overhauled............My guess is after the privitization of PTCL etc., in a few years, phone calls will be quite cheap in Pakistan.........I have to currently pay 23c/min to make a call to Pakistan, from Canada, on a calling card. Calls to Singapore etc. are 6c/minute or so..........I assume they reason I pay so much is because PTCL charges an overhead on the calls.............Perhaps to pay its over-staffed employees.............
#35 Posted by Mukhlis on June 15, 2005 10:09:24 am
``#10 by rozaiba on June 15, 2005 2:46am PT
Yes, very well dealt with. Everytime a strike occurs, let`s send in the Army. :D Next time, we should include the Air Force and the Navy (perhaps they could do some exercises on Rawal Lake). ``
Your innocent wish has come true.
Observe a dutiful employee of Pakistan Navy, diligently performing his duty of ensuring smooth operations at PTCL.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050614/481/kar10206141153
Yes, very well dealt with. Everytime a strike occurs, let`s send in the Army. :D Next time, we should include the Air Force and the Navy (perhaps they could do some exercises on Rawal Lake). ``
Your innocent wish has come true.
Observe a dutiful employee of Pakistan Navy, diligently performing his duty of ensuring smooth operations at PTCL.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050614/481/kar10206141153
#34 Posted by Romair on June 15, 2005 10:02:08 am
There is a difference between privatizing a company to int’l investors (assuming it is a White Elephant) and privatizing something to the Army.
I am totally against privatizing anything to the Army. In fact, I am totally against the Army being in the corporate sector, to begin with. If I had the authority the first thing I would do is get the military (read Army) out of owning corporate sector enterprises. Regardless of whether they are run efficiently or inefficiently.
Pakistan Army, through the Army Welfare Trust, is now the largest corporate entity in Pakistan, owning everything from a bank to an IT company to a fertilizer company, cereal company, construction company. The PAF’s Welfare organization recently got into the call center business.
There is an in-built problem with the Army owning companies in the corporate sector. It is actually no different that the govt. owning companies in the corporate sector. There is, relatively speaking, an unlimited budget available to it. And it has too many contacts inside the govt. to get an unfair advantage. Granted, in many areas, it performs more efficiently than many civilian organizations. For example, the prices of plots in Defence Housing societies is sent through the roof by civilian bidders. And the money actually comes from the Welfare accounts/savings of its employees, but it still has unfair advantages.
If today, I go start a computer company in Pakistan, I will have to compete against Askari computers. If Askari computers simply got all the contracts from the military, it could stay in business. In addition, if it needed money, it could get loans from Askari banks, which could further hold all the accounts of the military, fauji fertilizer, etc.
All of the other Fauji enterprises should be privatized also, regardless of how well or poorly they are being run. This will create a level playing field for entreprenuers………….The only place I would make an exception are the educational institutions. Which should be expanded and opened up to as many civilian candidates, as possible.
The other thing that should be ended is allowing retired military professionals to transition into govt. organizations like Foreign services, PIA, Wapda etc. These are very lucrative positions, with a lot of competition….
All of this is done to compensate the military officers for their low salaries. This applies specifically to those with technical skills. The solution to that is to raise the salaries of such individuals, at young ages, to bring them, comparatively, in line with the civilian sector. Like it is regularly done in the USA. Not to transition him into PIA in his 40s to take the job of a 25 year old civilian, or make him the MD of Wapda, when he retires as a General……….
All of this, of course, has nothing to do with the privitization of PTCL. I don`t think PTCL will be able to compete with the private companies popping up all over the place, in Pakistan, without downsizing. The moment the Govt. withdraws its monopoly, it will not be able to keep everyone employed. I also don`t think foreign companies are going to invest in Pakistan, if they know they don`t have a level playing field, and have to compete with giant govt.-owned monopolies............
I am totally against privatizing anything to the Army. In fact, I am totally against the Army being in the corporate sector, to begin with. If I had the authority the first thing I would do is get the military (read Army) out of owning corporate sector enterprises. Regardless of whether they are run efficiently or inefficiently.
Pakistan Army, through the Army Welfare Trust, is now the largest corporate entity in Pakistan, owning everything from a bank to an IT company to a fertilizer company, cereal company, construction company. The PAF’s Welfare organization recently got into the call center business.
There is an in-built problem with the Army owning companies in the corporate sector. It is actually no different that the govt. owning companies in the corporate sector. There is, relatively speaking, an unlimited budget available to it. And it has too many contacts inside the govt. to get an unfair advantage. Granted, in many areas, it performs more efficiently than many civilian organizations. For example, the prices of plots in Defence Housing societies is sent through the roof by civilian bidders. And the money actually comes from the Welfare accounts/savings of its employees, but it still has unfair advantages.
If today, I go start a computer company in Pakistan, I will have to compete against Askari computers. If Askari computers simply got all the contracts from the military, it could stay in business. In addition, if it needed money, it could get loans from Askari banks, which could further hold all the accounts of the military, fauji fertilizer, etc.
All of the other Fauji enterprises should be privatized also, regardless of how well or poorly they are being run. This will create a level playing field for entreprenuers………….The only place I would make an exception are the educational institutions. Which should be expanded and opened up to as many civilian candidates, as possible.
The other thing that should be ended is allowing retired military professionals to transition into govt. organizations like Foreign services, PIA, Wapda etc. These are very lucrative positions, with a lot of competition….
All of this is done to compensate the military officers for their low salaries. This applies specifically to those with technical skills. The solution to that is to raise the salaries of such individuals, at young ages, to bring them, comparatively, in line with the civilian sector. Like it is regularly done in the USA. Not to transition him into PIA in his 40s to take the job of a 25 year old civilian, or make him the MD of Wapda, when he retires as a General……….
All of this, of course, has nothing to do with the privitization of PTCL. I don`t think PTCL will be able to compete with the private companies popping up all over the place, in Pakistan, without downsizing. The moment the Govt. withdraws its monopoly, it will not be able to keep everyone employed. I also don`t think foreign companies are going to invest in Pakistan, if they know they don`t have a level playing field, and have to compete with giant govt.-owned monopolies............
#33 Posted by Mukhlis on June 15, 2005 9:53:48 am
Re# 20……….``I think Pakistan Steel Mills may be in the same category. I have heard MQM has filled it with its party members……Much like PPP and PML support strong labor unions in PIA…………… ``
Much like Pakistan Army has filled every lucrative post from Hockey Federation to Telecom Authority to University Chancellorships with retired & serving generals, brigadiers, colonels et al.
Whoever has the power, tries to benefit their own.. be it MQM, PPP, PML or PAP (Pakistan Army Party)
Much like Pakistan Army has filled every lucrative post from Hockey Federation to Telecom Authority to University Chancellorships with retired & serving generals, brigadiers, colonels et al.
Whoever has the power, tries to benefit their own.. be it MQM, PPP, PML or PAP (Pakistan Army Party)
#32 Posted by hamidm2 on June 15, 2005 9:37:00 am
Re: # 24
faisal,
..... you might be wrong about fauji fertilizer and others ..... the goons in khaki, helped by henchmen in the airforce and navy, run the biggest corporation in pakistan with a monopoly in many sectors ..............can you name any cereal other than fauji ?
``Fauji Fertilizer - A leading fertilizer manufacturing company with over 40% share of urea manufacturing and marketing in Pakistan``
http://www.ffc.com.pk/
... in 2002 the govt ``privatized`` pak saudi fertilizer by ``seeling`` it to fauji fertilizer for a bargain price of $136 million !
have you seen an eighteen wheeler in pakistan without a NLC logo ? where is its annual report ?
how do you know that FWO is not the largest construction company in pakistan? where is its annual report ?
how do you know that the army public schools (combined with the fauji foundation, bharia, paf schools) is not the largest educational business in pakistan ? where is their annual report ?
............. in this latest ``privatization`` push, fauji is a leading contendor for PSO, one of pakistan`s biggest, companies and fauji cement is sure to get (steal?) mustehkam cement ..........
let`s be truthful - the fact of the matter is that pakistan is owned by the army .........as somone said, ``most countries have armies, the pakistani army has a country``
faisal,
..... you might be wrong about fauji fertilizer and others ..... the goons in khaki, helped by henchmen in the airforce and navy, run the biggest corporation in pakistan with a monopoly in many sectors ..............can you name any cereal other than fauji ?
``Fauji Fertilizer - A leading fertilizer manufacturing company with over 40% share of urea manufacturing and marketing in Pakistan``
http://www.ffc.com.pk/
... in 2002 the govt ``privatized`` pak saudi fertilizer by ``seeling`` it to fauji fertilizer for a bargain price of $136 million !
have you seen an eighteen wheeler in pakistan without a NLC logo ? where is its annual report ?
how do you know that FWO is not the largest construction company in pakistan? where is its annual report ?
how do you know that the army public schools (combined with the fauji foundation, bharia, paf schools) is not the largest educational business in pakistan ? where is their annual report ?
............. in this latest ``privatization`` push, fauji is a leading contendor for PSO, one of pakistan`s biggest, companies and fauji cement is sure to get (steal?) mustehkam cement ..........
let`s be truthful - the fact of the matter is that pakistan is owned by the army .........as somone said, ``most countries have armies, the pakistani army has a country``
#31 Posted by Mukhlis on June 15, 2005 9:32:44 am
Re# 24 engro is the biggest fertilizer company in pak
Fauji Fertilizer Corporation (FFC) is the largest fertilizer manufacturer in Pakistan.
FFC`s Urea manufacturing facility near Sadiqabad alone is greater than Engro`s (FFC-Sadiqabad approx. 1.3 million ton/annum vs Engro`s approx. 0.95 million tons/annum). If we add Fauji Fertiliser Bin Qasim (Formerly FFC-Jordan), then total fertiliser production capacity of FFC is approx. 2.3 milion tons/annum (including 0.45 Milion tons/annum of DAP production). In 2002 FFC also took over Pak Saudi fertilisers. This would have increased FFC`s capacity even further.
Fauji Fertilizer Corporation (FFC) is the largest fertilizer manufacturer in Pakistan.
FFC`s Urea manufacturing facility near Sadiqabad alone is greater than Engro`s (FFC-Sadiqabad approx. 1.3 million ton/annum vs Engro`s approx. 0.95 million tons/annum). If we add Fauji Fertiliser Bin Qasim (Formerly FFC-Jordan), then total fertiliser production capacity of FFC is approx. 2.3 milion tons/annum (including 0.45 Milion tons/annum of DAP production). In 2002 FFC also took over Pak Saudi fertilisers. This would have increased FFC`s capacity even further.
#30 Posted by faisaluno on June 15, 2005 8:56:24 am
askari bank`s 2004 annual statement shows that its tax rate was 33%
http://www.askaribank.com.pk/Askari%20AR%202004%20Account.pdf
#29 Posted by faisaluno on June 15, 2005 8:48:38 am
dude you are talking smack. how can a company that is paying 37% of its pre tax profit as taxes be subsidized by the govt? also with respect to how efficiently these entities are run, i will post research reports by local brokerages so that people can evaluate for themselves, the state of these company.
#28 Posted by ofayyaz on June 15, 2005 8:47:37 am
Re: # 23
Pakistani army is not of the size or in a setting where it would make business sense, like the army of British East India Company, or US Army in Iraq.
It is more of a compulsion whether you like it or not. Countries have always needed armies and Armies have alway had a major stake in national power. We can discount democratic West but they have reached there after ages of trial and error.
We do not a subway yet.
Yes, privatization is the only way there is. Maybe three years, five years after priv., service and cost improves. Nonetheless state`s monopoly over this facility will end.
Pakistani army is not of the size or in a setting where it would make business sense, like the army of British East India Company, or US Army in Iraq.
It is more of a compulsion whether you like it or not. Countries have always needed armies and Armies have alway had a major stake in national power. We can discount democratic West but they have reached there after ages of trial and error.
We do not a subway yet.
Yes, privatization is the only way there is. Maybe three years, five years after priv., service and cost improves. Nonetheless state`s monopoly over this facility will end.
#27 Posted by JawadJee on June 15, 2005 8:45:42 am
Re: # 23
LOL - yes, it doesn`t all have to be serious!
LOL - yes, it doesn`t all have to be serious!
#26 Posted by JawadJee on June 15, 2005 8:43:32 am
Re: # 20
I like the detailed analogy you`ve given pertaining to PIA.
On numerous occasions having decided to give in to the patriot within me and travel by PIA, I`ve witnessed and personally experienced, (a) shameful acts of bribery and the like on part of the PIA staff, and (b) their sheer ineptness to grasp the concept of customer service. I’m sure PIA is serving its employees, but is it serving the nation? In a true market economy, the corruption-infested rank and file of the PIA wouldn`t be tolerated by the shareholders for a single day as it would invariably lead to reduced profits.
We can hate Privatisation to our hearts’ content, but the market forces are the only cure for corruption in `most` such cases in developing countries.
I like the detailed analogy you`ve given pertaining to PIA.
On numerous occasions having decided to give in to the patriot within me and travel by PIA, I`ve witnessed and personally experienced, (a) shameful acts of bribery and the like on part of the PIA staff, and (b) their sheer ineptness to grasp the concept of customer service. I’m sure PIA is serving its employees, but is it serving the nation? In a true market economy, the corruption-infested rank and file of the PIA wouldn`t be tolerated by the shareholders for a single day as it would invariably lead to reduced profits.
We can hate Privatisation to our hearts’ content, but the market forces are the only cure for corruption in `most` such cases in developing countries.
#25 Posted by rozaiba on June 15, 2005 8:42:29 am
faisal man, you continue to evade the fact that these fauji entities are subsidized by the people`s taxes and this allows them to continue to operate despite being weak in business skills.
I suppose you don`t have a business background. That is why you do not support the creative destruction of capitalism. A process through which none of these fauji entities could have survived.
I suppose you don`t have a business background. That is why you do not support the creative destruction of capitalism. A process through which none of these fauji entities could have survived.
#24 Posted by faisaluno on June 15, 2005 8:37:04 am
rozaiba man you are lying again much in the same manner when you said that pak army linked entities pay no taxes. in neither of the sectors you mention is a fauji linked entity protected from competition. in banking, askari bank is a minor player compared to nbp, ubl and habib. engro is the biggest fertilizer company in pak. i cant remember the name of the largest pakistani cement manufacturing company but i am farly sure that its not fauji cement. i will double check and post the name here.
#23 Posted by rozaiba on June 15, 2005 8:26:32 am
I believe in privatization. It`s the only way out.
That is why I feel the Pakistan Army should also be privatized. It is the most OVER-STAFFED and INEFFICIENT entity.
It makes no business sense.
That is why I feel the Pakistan Army should also be privatized. It is the most OVER-STAFFED and INEFFICIENT entity.
It makes no business sense.
#22 Posted by rozaiba on June 15, 2005 8:23:36 am
Re: # 18
Bah! Banking, cement, airlines, real estate, fertilizer - you name it, the faujiz are in it! The Fauji industry is protected from private competition from other local companies. The losses are sustained by the state. Once after much mismanagement and trial and error - a process that should have eliminated the company and allowed real Pakistani entrepreneurs to set up shop, is over, and more and more funds are stuffed through and the company is established on a large scale through `protective competition` the company is put up on the Karachi Stock Exchange. Obviously the company will have financial statements after that.
Bah! Banking, cement, airlines, real estate, fertilizer - you name it, the faujiz are in it! The Fauji industry is protected from private competition from other local companies. The losses are sustained by the state. Once after much mismanagement and trial and error - a process that should have eliminated the company and allowed real Pakistani entrepreneurs to set up shop, is over, and more and more funds are stuffed through and the company is established on a large scale through `protective competition` the company is put up on the Karachi Stock Exchange. Obviously the company will have financial statements after that.
#21 Posted by faisaluno on June 15, 2005 8:18:01 am
latest on ptcl privatisation. my money is on an arab entity. arab telcos are sitting on heaps of cash and have limited investment avenues available at home. in addition they have very limited internation presence and thus might be more desparate to acquire ptcl:
http://sg.biz.yahoo.com/050615/15/3sz5q.html
Wednesday June 15, 4:50 PM
SingTel, Etisalat Favorites For Pakistan PTCL Stake
By Imran Maqbool
Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
KARACHI (Dow Jones)--Singapore Telecommunications Ltd. (T48.SG), or SingTel, and the UAE-based Emirates Telecommunications Corp. (ETISALAT.AD) are the top contenders to buy a 26% stake in Pakistan Telecommunication Co., or PTCL, analysts said.
All eyes are on a planned bidding Saturday to partly privatize Pakistan`s largest phone-service provider. A total of nine international telecom firms have been shortlisted by the country`s Privatization Commission.
The other seven companies in the run are Telekom Malaysia (4863.KU), China Mobile Communication Corp. (CHL), Kuwait`s Mobile Telecommunication Co. (TELE.KW), Saudi Oger Ltd. (SO.YY), Turkcell (TKC), Saudi Telecommunications Co. (7010.SA) and Egypt`s Almal-led consortium.
PTCL`s sale is the biggest ever privatization in Pakistan and a test case of the government`s resolve to sell off state firms despite opposition by political parties and labor unions. If the sale goes smoothly, analysts said other firms like Pakistan State Oil, the country`s largest oil marketing company and Pakistan Petroleum Ltd., the second biggest exploration firm in Pakisran, will follow soon.
Seven out of 10 analysts surveyed by Dow Jones Newswires said SingTel would be the likely winner, while three said it would be Etisalat. The winner will also get management control of PTCL.
...In Pakistan alone, the telecom market`s total revenue stood at US$1.33 billion in the last fiscal year and is expected to grow by about 66% to US$2.2 billion in the fiscal year 2009.
...``I think, Arab investors` risk assessment of Pakistan will be lower than those of other foreign investors because of our (Pakistan`s) historical ties with them,`` said Asif Qureshi, head of research at Invisor Securities.
...A consortium led by JPMorgan and Goldman Sachs is advising the government on the transaction.
...``The government`s credibility is at stake here,`` said Tanvir Abid, head of research at Live Securities.
If the sale goes well it will provide a strong impetus to the government`s drive to privatize state-run firms, analysts said.
``After the successful completion of this transaction, it will be easier for the government to move forward with its privatization program,`` said Arif of KASB Group. ``It will give positive signals to international investors and the government will capitalize on it.``
#20 Posted by Romair on June 15, 2005 8:16:45 am
Rezwan #varoius: I don’t know much about the internals of PTCL. Could you highlight what it’s employee to profit and employee to connections/clients serviced etc. ratio is with respect to other telecom companies in the world……….
Before supporting or opposing privatization of anything, one has to first understand the internals of the organization. Unions can be positive or negative. If they are acting to protect the workers against Capitalistic exploitation, then they are a positive. This is what has kept Capitalism on track, and this is why Communism has failed. Because efficient Capitalism never turned into an exploitation of the masses, since the masses were able to form strong unions and demand their rights. This is why all of us expats migrated to Capitalist countries, and not to the USSR. Including the ones, who spend their whole day supporting labor unions, without trying to figure out whether they are pushing a legitimate or illegitimate stance.
However, labor unions can be huge negatives also. They can bring down companies, and can bring down whole economies. Specifically in poor third world countries, with massive publicly owned companies, where the political parties and govts. fill the companies with employees, just to provide jobs to voters in their constituencies. It is equivalent to putting people on excellent welfare plans, at the expense of companies. And in the process destroying the work of people in companies, who are actually working hard.
Unconditionally supporting labor unions, even if they are over-staffed, sounds quite noble. Unless you consider the fact that people are being paid to do nothing, in such situations. That same money could be better used to help the poor. Pay off international loans. Put into infrastructure, etc. Or raise the salaries of the employees in the companies that are working hard. This is why Pakistan has publicly owned companies, which have a monopoly on markets, yet make either little profit or in many cases go in a loss!! Having a monopoly on a population of 150 million people and still going in a loss, or not make gigantic profits, is pretty hard to do.
I do know something about a company called PIA. Which is one of the largest publicly owned White elephants in the international aviation industry. PIA has some of the strongest unions in Pakistan, starting from its Pilot’s union, whose salaries are (were) phenomally high, in comparison to what they should be in a third-world country like Pakistan. I have friends who barely got their FA degress, yet enjoy a high lifestyle as PIA pilots………..
To do a comparison, consider the following:
PIA barely has 50 airplanes. Out of these, around 40 are capable of international flights. PIA has averaged around 20 thousand employees, over the years. And it averages 6 to 10 million passengers, per year. Delta airlines has around 550 airplanes (nearly all of which are capable of int’l flights), and carries around 85 million passengers/year. Yet it has only 70 thousand employees.
Do the math. An airline with 13 times the Boeings and Airbuses and ten times the passenger load (Delta) has only three and a half time the employees of PIA. PIA generally runs in a loss. I wonder why? Could it be, because it is heavily over-staffed. The govt. has to give it money to stay in business. Money that could be used to build schools, roads etc. Or to venture fund young IT entreprenuers. This is despite the fact that PIA has, over the years, had a virtual monopoly on domestic travel and a complete monopoly on int’l travel for a population of 100 million + people, with a gigantic expat population.
And despite such a high number of employees, PIA has pathetic customer service.........One would think all these extra employees could at least be put on the task of cleaning the airplanes or answering the phones...........
Had PIA been competing in a competitive market like USA, the Deltas of the world would have put it out of business, years ago. In fact, Canada 3000, an airline of closer size to PIA, went under right after 9/11, because it was operating as a private airline. The same would have happened to PIA, in Canada, but years before Canada 3000.
Would it make sense to privatize PIA and right-size it? Or keep in public, and right-size it? Of course, it would. Should one be on the PIA;s labor unions’ side in such a situation. I wouldn’t be. Because a huge chunk of its employees are getting paychecks, excellent perks etc., for doing nothing………..and being paid by the people of Pakistan……….In addition, they are keeping other entrepreneurs in Pakistan from building large profitable airlines………To some extent Air Canada, supported by the govt. in Canada, is doing the same…………
I don’t know the efficiency of PTCL. I hope you do, since you wrote the article. But my guess is it would not be able to compete against private companies. I have heard it is a white elephant also, and is only profitable because it has had a monopoly over 150 million people’s phone connections, also. A much more lucrative monopoly than PIA has.
Pakistan’s telecom sector is in a boom. Any qualified person is not going to be out of a job. However, it is not the job of the govt. to pay people, just for the sake of paying them………..and keeping them employed at govt. exchequer for doing nothing……….I think Pakistan Steel Mills may be in the same category. I have heard MQM has filled it with its party members……Much like PPP and PML support strong labor unions in PIA……………
Before supporting or opposing privatization of anything, one has to first understand the internals of the organization. Unions can be positive or negative. If they are acting to protect the workers against Capitalistic exploitation, then they are a positive. This is what has kept Capitalism on track, and this is why Communism has failed. Because efficient Capitalism never turned into an exploitation of the masses, since the masses were able to form strong unions and demand their rights. This is why all of us expats migrated to Capitalist countries, and not to the USSR. Including the ones, who spend their whole day supporting labor unions, without trying to figure out whether they are pushing a legitimate or illegitimate stance.
However, labor unions can be huge negatives also. They can bring down companies, and can bring down whole economies. Specifically in poor third world countries, with massive publicly owned companies, where the political parties and govts. fill the companies with employees, just to provide jobs to voters in their constituencies. It is equivalent to putting people on excellent welfare plans, at the expense of companies. And in the process destroying the work of people in companies, who are actually working hard.
Unconditionally supporting labor unions, even if they are over-staffed, sounds quite noble. Unless you consider the fact that people are being paid to do nothing, in such situations. That same money could be better used to help the poor. Pay off international loans. Put into infrastructure, etc. Or raise the salaries of the employees in the companies that are working hard. This is why Pakistan has publicly owned companies, which have a monopoly on markets, yet make either little profit or in many cases go in a loss!! Having a monopoly on a population of 150 million people and still going in a loss, or not make gigantic profits, is pretty hard to do.
I do know something about a company called PIA. Which is one of the largest publicly owned White elephants in the international aviation industry. PIA has some of the strongest unions in Pakistan, starting from its Pilot’s union, whose salaries are (were) phenomally high, in comparison to what they should be in a third-world country like Pakistan. I have friends who barely got their FA degress, yet enjoy a high lifestyle as PIA pilots………..
To do a comparison, consider the following:
PIA barely has 50 airplanes. Out of these, around 40 are capable of international flights. PIA has averaged around 20 thousand employees, over the years. And it averages 6 to 10 million passengers, per year. Delta airlines has around 550 airplanes (nearly all of which are capable of int’l flights), and carries around 85 million passengers/year. Yet it has only 70 thousand employees.
Do the math. An airline with 13 times the Boeings and Airbuses and ten times the passenger load (Delta) has only three and a half time the employees of PIA. PIA generally runs in a loss. I wonder why? Could it be, because it is heavily over-staffed. The govt. has to give it money to stay in business. Money that could be used to build schools, roads etc. Or to venture fund young IT entreprenuers. This is despite the fact that PIA has, over the years, had a virtual monopoly on domestic travel and a complete monopoly on int’l travel for a population of 100 million + people, with a gigantic expat population.
And despite such a high number of employees, PIA has pathetic customer service.........One would think all these extra employees could at least be put on the task of cleaning the airplanes or answering the phones...........
Had PIA been competing in a competitive market like USA, the Deltas of the world would have put it out of business, years ago. In fact, Canada 3000, an airline of closer size to PIA, went under right after 9/11, because it was operating as a private airline. The same would have happened to PIA, in Canada, but years before Canada 3000.
Would it make sense to privatize PIA and right-size it? Or keep in public, and right-size it? Of course, it would. Should one be on the PIA;s labor unions’ side in such a situation. I wouldn’t be. Because a huge chunk of its employees are getting paychecks, excellent perks etc., for doing nothing………..and being paid by the people of Pakistan……….In addition, they are keeping other entrepreneurs in Pakistan from building large profitable airlines………To some extent Air Canada, supported by the govt. in Canada, is doing the same…………
I don’t know the efficiency of PTCL. I hope you do, since you wrote the article. But my guess is it would not be able to compete against private companies. I have heard it is a white elephant also, and is only profitable because it has had a monopoly over 150 million people’s phone connections, also. A much more lucrative monopoly than PIA has.
Pakistan’s telecom sector is in a boom. Any qualified person is not going to be out of a job. However, it is not the job of the govt. to pay people, just for the sake of paying them………..and keeping them employed at govt. exchequer for doing nothing……….I think Pakistan Steel Mills may be in the same category. I have heard MQM has filled it with its party members……Much like PPP and PML support strong labor unions in PIA……………
#19 Posted by faisaluno on June 15, 2005 8:00:44 am
re #18
correction:
i meant fauji fertilizer`s tax expense amounted to 37% of its PRE TAX INCOME rather than pre tax expense.
also btw, fauji foundation has submitted lots of bids in the current round of privatisation. those bids have however not been accepted because other parties have submitted higher bids.
#18 Posted by faisaluno on June 15, 2005 7:55:42 am
rozaiba is perpetrating more lies. fauji fertilizers is one of the core holdings of fauji foundation. in 2004, fauji fertilizer`s tax expense amounted to 37% of its pre-tax expense, a rate higher than that paid by most american companies. fauji fertilizer`s 2004 financials are available at the following link:
http://www.ffc.com.pk/contents/annualrep.htm
in addition, neither does any pak army linked entitity hold a stake in top pak companies ranked by revenue. most people here in fact probably cant name top five companies in that list.
#17 Posted by JawadJee on June 15, 2005 7:32:20 am
Re: # 7
Would love to know if you are against Privatisation in general, or Privatisation in this particular case due to whatever concerns you may have?
Would love to know if you are against Privatisation in general, or Privatisation in this particular case due to whatever concerns you may have?
#16 Posted by JawadJee on June 15, 2005 7:24:25 am
Although, there are points scattered through out this heart-felt article that I feel sympathetic towards, I think the debate between Privatisation and Nationalisation is an old one and if I may say so, a settled one - firmly in the favour of the P word!
I totally disagree with you Rizwan that the purpose of a state-run organisation is to serve people that it employs! The purpose of a state-run organisation is surely to serve the people of the country. And the two we all know are NOT the same! Providing livelihood for people is the job of the government, not PTCL. The job of the PTCL is to provide the state-of-the-art telecoms services across the nation.
And once it has been privatised (which is bound to happen sooner or later), its additional responsibility will be to provide an increased value to its shareholders, which it will have to achieve by becoming more attractive to the consumer. Sounds like it’s a win-win for the country. If some people (fellow countrymen and women) owning shares in the company make a bit of money along the way, good for them!
Having said all of that, I do think the IPO will have to be carefully managed. I`m not totally against the idea of breaking a company down, before privatising it. This way, it can be ensured that the organisation does not enjoy the sector monopoly that it once had under the government. The thought of a single private entity solely controlling a lucrative public sector is quite frightening in itself.
I like Zakkk`s way of putting it: regulate yes, run no! Good one!
Also not sure if the politics of trade unions is exactly a step in the right direction! But will have to see the details of what exactly happened in this case to make up my mind.
I totally disagree with you Rizwan that the purpose of a state-run organisation is to serve people that it employs! The purpose of a state-run organisation is surely to serve the people of the country. And the two we all know are NOT the same! Providing livelihood for people is the job of the government, not PTCL. The job of the PTCL is to provide the state-of-the-art telecoms services across the nation.
And once it has been privatised (which is bound to happen sooner or later), its additional responsibility will be to provide an increased value to its shareholders, which it will have to achieve by becoming more attractive to the consumer. Sounds like it’s a win-win for the country. If some people (fellow countrymen and women) owning shares in the company make a bit of money along the way, good for them!
Having said all of that, I do think the IPO will have to be carefully managed. I`m not totally against the idea of breaking a company down, before privatising it. This way, it can be ensured that the organisation does not enjoy the sector monopoly that it once had under the government. The thought of a single private entity solely controlling a lucrative public sector is quite frightening in itself.
I like Zakkk`s way of putting it: regulate yes, run no! Good one!
Also not sure if the politics of trade unions is exactly a step in the right direction! But will have to see the details of what exactly happened in this case to make up my mind.
#15 Posted by rozaiba on June 15, 2005 6:36:31 am
Re: # 14
Haroon, because the Pakistan Army has nothing better to do and has failed in its professional duties, it may as well fight the trade unions. I think we should document this episode and send it to the Defense colleges where young cadets are told inspirational tales of how the Pakistani Army Jawans successfully fought the trade unions. They could also be taught how the Pakistan Army became the largest land owner and largest corporate entity in the country while it was buffered with subsidies from the State and didn`t have to pay any taxes on profits.
The course book should be titled: ``How to take over a country - your own country!``
Young cadets will most certainly leave the classes with prideful eyes and look forward to a bright future looting the country.
Haroon, because the Pakistan Army has nothing better to do and has failed in its professional duties, it may as well fight the trade unions. I think we should document this episode and send it to the Defense colleges where young cadets are told inspirational tales of how the Pakistani Army Jawans successfully fought the trade unions. They could also be taught how the Pakistan Army became the largest land owner and largest corporate entity in the country while it was buffered with subsidies from the State and didn`t have to pay any taxes on profits.
The course book should be titled: ``How to take over a country - your own country!``
Young cadets will most certainly leave the classes with prideful eyes and look forward to a bright future looting the country.
#14 Posted by HaroonEllahi on June 15, 2005 5:42:10 am
Rozaiba, PTCL is a national asset right now and it`s security can not be comprimised upon until the privitization takes place. The Federal Government has taken a decision to privitize it and it is the government and not the union`s who steer the direction of the Pakistan state.
#13 Posted by Rezwan on June 15, 2005 5:33:50 am
faisaluno: sorry for the error about the profits. i somehow thought that THE NEWS was a reliable source of information for taking figures. i was obviously wrong. thanks for correcting me.
and the liberal agenda is not necessarily spoused by a lot of people. many of us are just publishing and getting the word around.
Peters: yes, there are pakistani`s who are not the biggest fan of the so called `Ummah` . !
and the liberal agenda is not necessarily spoused by a lot of people. many of us are just publishing and getting the word around.
Peters: yes, there are pakistani`s who are not the biggest fan of the so called `Ummah` . !
#12 Posted by Rezwan on June 15, 2005 5:13:13 am
A lot has happened since the article was written over a week ago. For an update, those who are interested can visit:
www.blogomonster.com/rizwan
and read the article:
`The State Strikes Back`
But the latest is that splinter groups have been formed within the Union. I guess all the state harrassment has payed off. But there is still some juice left in this union.
rizwan
#11 Posted by patwari on June 15, 2005 4:02:34 am
No I do not think so, today PTCL ppl said they will not destroy communications but strike will go on however there was no news of stoppage of privatization.
#10 Posted by rozaiba on June 15, 2005 2:46:40 am
Yes, very well dealt with. Everytime a strike occurs, let`s send in the Army. :D Next time, we should include the Air Force and the Navy (perhaps they could do some exercises on Rawal Lake).
#9 Posted by cayenne on June 15, 2005 1:18:29 am
Well, click on these links and see what an open, democratic society, free market economics and multiculturalism is doing to your very large neighbor to your east....
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=224312
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=212621
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=224568
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=224312
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=212621
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=224568
#8 Posted by cayenne on June 14, 2005 11:22:13 pm
Only in pakland will you find troops in a communications office.How reassuring for foreign investors.
#7 Posted by Nadia_Zehra on June 14, 2005 9:06:12 pm
Rezwan:
Thnks for coming with actual state in PTCL and the organized struggle of the union. Keep updating. Privatizing step of PTCL would be a step towards killing Pakistan with own hands.
Thnks for coming with actual state in PTCL and the organized struggle of the union. Keep updating. Privatizing step of PTCL would be a step towards killing Pakistan with own hands.
#5 Posted by faisaluno on June 14, 2005 6:34:17 pm
actually this article has a glaring factual error. ptcl`s 2004 annual net profit (profit after tax)was US$ 496 million and not US$ 30 million as claimed by the author. this information can be verified from ptcl`s 2004 income statement available at the following link:
http://www.ptcl.com.pk/corporate_info/financial/anual_report%202004/comp_financial_con1.pdf
intersting to note that this website relies on analysis, people who are either (a) dishonest or (b) incompetent or maybe a combination of both. this is also why i think pakistanis with a ``liberal agenda`` such as chowk-staff are actually no different from the mullah crowd. both these groups are dishonest because both are intent on pushing an agenda rather than relying on facts to reach appropriate conclusion. main difference between chowk-staff and the mullah crowd is that chowk-staff are pushing an agenda which is alien to pakistanis and thus will not find any takers. rather extremist agenda of chowk-types will drive awam into the arms of the mullahs and that wont be pretty as examples in iran and afghanistan indicates.
#4 Posted by Romair on June 14, 2005 5:43:53 pm
In the end everything comes down to money:
``LAHORE: Pakistan Telecommunication Company Limited (PTCL) on Tuesday reached an agreement with leaders of PTCL Telecom Employees Union - the largest of the nine unions forming PTCL Action Committee, reported Dow Jones Newswires............Shahid Ishaq Butt, a Telecom union leader, said the strike was being called off and the union won’t oppose privatisation...........Meanwhile, PTCL president Junaid Khan told Geo news channel that the previous agreement had been amended and a new mutually agreed upon pact was formed that assured job security to the employees. He said the union members had wanted security and their pay package revised, which had delayed the agreement.`` www.dailytimes.com.pk
The govt. has seen its first major employee strike. And seems to have dealt with it quite aptly.
The telecommunications sector in Pakistan is in an unprecedented boom. Any competent, over even average person, in this sector in Pakistan is going to make a lot of money. So much so, that Comp. Science depts. in Pakistan are now facing problems, because all the good students have started going into telecommunications. The software revolution that everyone was talking about, never came. But apparently a telecom revolution seems to have occured.......
``LAHORE: Pakistan Telecommunication Company Limited (PTCL) on Tuesday reached an agreement with leaders of PTCL Telecom Employees Union - the largest of the nine unions forming PTCL Action Committee, reported Dow Jones Newswires............Shahid Ishaq Butt, a Telecom union leader, said the strike was being called off and the union won’t oppose privatisation...........Meanwhile, PTCL president Junaid Khan told Geo news channel that the previous agreement had been amended and a new mutually agreed upon pact was formed that assured job security to the employees. He said the union members had wanted security and their pay package revised, which had delayed the agreement.`` www.dailytimes.com.pk
The govt. has seen its first major employee strike. And seems to have dealt with it quite aptly.
The telecommunications sector in Pakistan is in an unprecedented boom. Any competent, over even average person, in this sector in Pakistan is going to make a lot of money. So much so, that Comp. Science depts. in Pakistan are now facing problems, because all the good students have started going into telecommunications. The software revolution that everyone was talking about, never came. But apparently a telecom revolution seems to have occured.......
#2 Posted by peters on June 14, 2005 2:40:54 pm
Whats going on, pakistanis are writing about their local issues instead of ummah issues. Is everything alright?.
#1 Posted by Zakkk on June 14, 2005 1:56:55 pm
Lets be realistic..Pakistans State Owned Enterprises are overstaffed monoliths..they are only divided into 3 types:
1) Overstaffed Monoliths that post profits because of their monopolies
2) overstaffed and corrupt monoliths that post losses inspite of their monopolies
3) those that collapse because of their losses..
Onto another argument..what business does the government have in doing business? Why should the GOP with it`s brilliant cadre of leaders have anything to do wth running telecom firms or banks? regulate yes..run NO..unless its role was specifically poverty alleviation or transfer of technology
Lastly..I think this is the first purely trade union strike in Pakistan..in ages..it must have spooked the PML-Q politicos who fear populism like nobodies biz...anyway a positive sign..
1) Overstaffed Monoliths that post profits because of their monopolies
2) overstaffed and corrupt monoliths that post losses inspite of their monopolies
3) those that collapse because of their losses..
Onto another argument..what business does the government have in doing business? Why should the GOP with it`s brilliant cadre of leaders have anything to do wth running telecom firms or banks? regulate yes..run NO..unless its role was specifically poverty alleviation or transfer of technology
Lastly..I think this is the first purely trade union strike in Pakistan..in ages..it must have spooked the PML-Q politicos who fear populism like nobodies biz...anyway a positive sign..
Interact Index
Latest Interacts
- masadi: Ras writes "RE: #6... Three Cups of Tea
- Inaara: http://allpoetry.com/poem/3988919
Inaara... Demon - Inaara: I was moved by... Demon
- pmishra2: Thanks, KaalChakra for posting... Muhammad Aslam Khan Khattak:
- pmishra2: ugh, yet another of... Muhammad Aslam Khan Khattak:
- captainjohann: Nobody is stopping legal... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
- mohar11: Re: # 133 There is... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
- ahmedmadani: Re: # 37 Parth... Rape Survivor Families Struggle
