Bunty aur Babli: The latest RSS-BJP tango

It is time a group of NRI pooled in resources to exterminate Dawood and his henchmen from Karachi and Dubai by taking the services of ex-army men...........................................................shame on India for not eliminating this ISI pest for long................................



D-wedding: Love wins over villian ISI
MOHUA CHATTERJEE

TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ THURSDAY, JUNE 23, 2005 12:14:30 AM ]

Surf `N` Earn -Sign innow

NEW DELHI: For Dawood Ibrahim`s daughter Mahrukh and Javed Miandad`s son Junaid, engaged to be married in Karachi soon, it was like a script out of Bollywood`s potboilers

re: BeeJay # 269

Regarding (2), that is my current understanding. A slight possible variation is that Farzana considers that Kashmiri Hindus left their homes, their properties, their professions, and their memories, not because they were being killed by well-armed terrorists, but because they wanted to avail themselves of the free bus tickets (and whatever else) the then governor Jagmohan was giving out.

To be fair to her, Farzana may believe that this is how all human beings behave. She may not believe that Hindus in her country are not the only ones who are blessed with this desire for free buts tickets in exchange for home, properties, profession, and memories. We may be able to get her clarification.



Anil

``independent views``


Good, I thought everyone of us was either a slave or a robot :)

Re: # 269

BeeJay:

``Drs. Gill & LokRaj, Rahul, DM, HN, NHK, T, “Burpinder”, Miriamk, Kaal, Anil, Subroto, and anybody else I missed – your take on (3)? ...``

I had been fortunate to personally come to know Farzana, her independent views and courage, and come to admire these qualities in her. She certainly presents an independent view point on Kashmir, which she and I had an opportunity to discuss. Also, I am equally proud of my Kashmiri brahmin background. I think she has taken a very narrow definition of refugee. I do not take such a narrow definition of refugees, to me refugees also includes those on their own will and out of fear of persecution or loss of life leave their home. Only this definition allows, Russian Jews, to Palestinians, to sub-continents Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims at the time of partition, and many others be called refugees.

Anil

Re: # 269

BeeJay:

``Drs. Gill & LokRaj, Rahul, DM, HN, NHK, T, “Burpinder”, Miriamk, Kaal, Anil, Subroto, and anybody else I missed – your take on (3)? ...``

I had been fortunate to personally come to know Farzana, her independent views and courage, and come to admire these qualities in her. She certainly presents an independent view point on Kashmir, which she and I had an opportunity to discuss. Also, I am equally proud of my Kashmiri brahmin background. I think she has taken a very narrow definition of refugee. I do not take such a narrow definition of refugees, to me refugees also includes those on their own will and out of fear of persecution or loss of life leave their home. Only this definition allows, Russian Jews, to Palestinians, to sub-continents Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims at the time of partition, and many others be called refugees.

Anil

All interactors, including Farzana:

This is important to me! So I need your response.

I have been on travel and just started catching up yesterday. Since this article had the maximum number of interacts, I saved it till the end. I just read FV’s interact #76 and am still trying to figure out what happened here.

I know she does not want it discussed here, but she has no authority to dictate that to anyone. This is an open forum, THIS is her current board and her letter to that newspaper appears to have happened this month. There is no reason to put current discussion on a deeply buried board (which happened long before I joined chowk) if there is no reason to hide something.

And no, I’m not a Kashmiri Pandit masquerading under this nick or that and yes, I consider myself a serious fan of her works (although I have not read everything she has written), some of which has appealed to me and affected me at a very deep, personal, and emotional level.

I realize that some of you have already expressed yourself more verbosely on this. However, please remove your India/Pakistan glasses for just a few minutes and let me know the following with a short answer:

(1) Did Farzana really write that letter as quoted here or was there a longer version which was abridged by an editor? If there was a more comprehensive letter, can she please post it here?

(2) Farzana, do you really believe that people who leave their ancestral homes because they need to save their lives (and loved ones) should not be considered refugees (because they received monetary assistance during escape)? (Don’t fuzz please, I have never known you to do that!)

(3) HP and Tahmed, do you agree with Farzana on (2)?

(4) Drs. Gill & LokRaj, Rahul, DM, HN, NHK, T, “Burpinder”, Miriamk, Kaal, Anil, Subroto, and anybody else I missed – your take on (3)?

Give it to me straight, and give it to me NOW! With all due respects, I DEMAND it!!!

Sincerely,
BeeJay.

HP

Man, you do have a pretty good grasp of the churning that is going on in India currently :)

#263 by dost-mittar

“You do not have to convince me about the saffronisation of the Hindu Middle Class.”

I was merely responding to your wild comment about me. I am glad our conclusions on RSS/VHP influence on the Indian Middleclass are close. I don’t exaggerate, I highlight. I know who is going to destroy the age old Indian society, your cheerful assessment of RSS/VHP notwithstanding!

Sulekha is just one site, I go to many sites and there are some Indian discussions forums where some very enlightened Indians show up. I learn from them. It is unfortunate but chowk seem to attract the worst of India.

“Yes, there is a reappraisal going on about Nehru and Gandhi and some of the things being said about them are the same that the Pakistanis have been saying for a long time.”

Pretty much all Indians believed that Pakistanis have fiddled up or altered the history and now that same history is a piece of inspiration! Hariat main parr giya hoan Ki dinya kia say kia ho gayi.

Isn’t this ironic that Pakistanis who were considered communal and religious bigots are now the messengers of truth in India!

However, AFAIK, a good number of Pakistani intellectuals have totally skewed knowledge of what happened in pre-partition India.

What you are saying is very subjective understanding of the Indian history. I will get into that debate later. But leaders have always been questioned and at times they were thoroughly thrashed but sooner or later they come back because what they did was not based on one or two days or ad hoc politics but was based on substantive intellectual discourse. Lincoln after being an American hero for so long now is being questioned for what he did during the civil war.

Nehru, Gandhi, and Jinnah are no exceptions. They will be thrashed in the light of new politics and newly emerging ideologies but a historical perspective is not based on ten years or twenty years. The process is much longer and being a Nehru follower, I know he will come back to his rightful place in the Indian history and would survive the current virulent attack from the followers of Savarkar.

Tahmed,

``The japanese will treat us Indians differently than they treated others`` way of thinking that led the Indian leaders (other than jinnah) to undermine the british war effort with their irresponsible actions (Quit India and so forth). ``

People who fought to undermine the british are called freedom fighters. People who support them are called stooges. My post does not claim that the japs would have treated indians differently. Merely the fact that iron can be used to cut iron, and there;s nothing wrong with that.
It seems by your logic that we should have supported the british and asked them to use us further. No wonder you guys don`t feel any shame when musharraf is publicly whooped by U.S. I finally understand that pakistan`s present is no anomaly and that it was intentioned to be a ``responsible action`` state under the tutelage and boots of white guys.

Adios

Maharana: So you still insist in ignoring what the japanese would have dont to indians (which, rest assured, would have been no different than what they did to all other nationalities they occupied - namely use them for slave labor, bayonet practice, medical experiments, or else simply kill them in the tens of millions if they had no use for them). That is fine. It is exactly this ``The japanese will treat us Indians differently than they treated others`` way of thinking that led the Indian leaders (other than jinnah) to undermine the british war effort with their irresponsible actions (Quit India and so forth).

Also you write ``to know that Bose planted the information in britsh intelligence circle
about a possible attack by INA paratroopers trained by the germans and
japs in 1945. According to some american historians, this too was
another reason for the brits to hurry up independence of india. ``

Do you seriously think that in 1945 (when the germans and japanese were as good as beaten), the Brits would be concerned about ....... ``INA paratroopers``. ha! ha! Get serious my friend. Do you seriously think that just having beaten the mighty nazi and jap militaries, the allies would have given two hoots about these ``INA paratroopers`` of yours??

Funny how pakis are commenting about the BJP/Congress/CPI...Isn`t half of Pakiland controlled by an ally of the taliban?

Mike:

People vote in an election -any election anywhere- based on a variety of factors: personal, local, provincial, national. Those who voted for the BJP did not all vote because of its hindutva stance. Similarly, someone voting for the Congress does not mean he or she is necessarily against Hindutva. I personally would vote for Jaswant Singh, Manmohan Singh or Brinda Karat even though they belong to the BJP, Congress and CP(M) respectively because I consider them all to be honest and competent people who would engage in a civilized and rigourous debate in the Parliament.

HP:
You do not have to convince me about the saffronisation of the Hindu Middle Class. I wrote an article on the same topic which is still there in the archives. You seem to exaggerate it a lot. Your favourite whipping boy is the sulekha website. I am not a member there and so do not know what goes on their discussion forum. I do however find it to be a rich resource of news of interest to the Indian/Pakistani diaspora and have no problem finding there news both for and against the Hindutva people. Same about Rediff.com.
Yes, there is a reappraisal going on about Nehru and Gandhi and some of the things being said about them are the same that the Pakistanis have been saying for a long time. Some of us are also guilty of agreeing with facts even if they are pointed out by people whose general policies and ideologies we are against. Disagreeing with them on facts will only expose us as dumb and make them stronger. Most of the ire however is reserved for Nehru who most of us believe set India back by several decades with his well-intentioned but ill-thought-out policies. My Personal regret is that Rajaji`s Swatantra Party did not survive in India, otherwise we would have had a truly free-enterprise, non-communal party.

As HP has perceptively understood, India is fundamentally changing (a point I have been trying to make for some time, with not half as much success). HP is also on the money in suggesting that BJP`s loss of power should not be overinterpreted. India has not reverted to the days of Nehru and Gandhi. The reasons for this transformation are too many and too complicated to dig into right now.

---

The hyper-emotional debate about Gandhi-Nehru-Bose seems so un-Indian.

Is there any other Indian who feels the same way? Are there many Indians here who cannot take two contradictory ideas, understand the inherent limitations and mutual oppositions of these ideas, and give both of them their respect when deserved?

I thought that dealing with contradictions nature throws at us was our favorite pastime, a specialty of sorts. :)

Hello Tahmed,


I think a factual reading of Bose`s as given in this journal paper will

tell you about his intentions.
http://www.vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/3/4/Borra407-439.html

What is lesser known is also the now unclassified documents of the

british intelligence about india`s independence. You will be surprised

to know that Bose planted the information in britsh intelligence circle

about a possible attack by INA paratroopers trained by the germans and

japs in 1945. According to some american historians, this too was

another reason for the brits to hurry up independence of india.

The issue of nazism or japs cruelty or their possible beahviour towards

indians is moot. The british commited acts of violence in their own

way. The americans commited acts of violence too in nagasaki and

hirohima. Its a well known fact that the americans did not want to use

atomic bombs against their own kind ( the germans). I don`t see any

pakistani having qualms about taking help from U.S. from the beginning.

It is a confirmed fact now with Amartya Sen`s work that the british

actually horded foodgrains while bengal starved with millions dying.

The backlash of 1857 revolt by the british was a black chapter in

india`s history. Its the victors who write history. And even the

victors of 2nd world war did not know of the atcocities commited by

hitler until the end of war. How do you expect bose to have known that?

He actually confronted hitler about his views directly. If hitler had

won, you would have been singing paeans about the noblity of germans.

And telling us about, how americans commited genocide against the

native americans, dropped bombs in nagasaki & hiroshima, confined the

japs to concentration camps in US etc. In a war it is the more brutal

who wins. To an indian, no matter who won, we would have had our

freedom irrespective. If the germans had colonised india, you think

Bose would not have seeked britain`s help?
Please don`t bring jinnah into the picture. He never fought against the

british to be remotely compared with bose or other freedom fighters. A

street bum who did nothing would appear wiser then bose at this point

in your eyes.

Due to lack of popular support and the spineless attitude of many

indians the british were able to rule despite all the violence and

deceit. People of indian sub-continent have got into the habit of not

thinking on their own and allowing an outsider to do it for them. Being

ruled happily by outsiders and emulating heir values because lack of

self-belief and in fighting prompts these people to become lackeys of

an outside system(that includes jinnah). People from various corners of

india can tell you proudly how their forefathers served the british.

The new india has evolved out of the shadows of just such a mental

lethargy and hopefully a clean break was made from the past with

respect to deciding one`s own destiny. I`m not surprised that educated

pakistanis think otherwise. For, to appreciate the freedom won the hard

way is to develop the same into one`s on system of governance, culture,

thoughts and everything else. Why else seek freedom if you are happy

with the outsiders system. Its a ridiculous effort and waste of blood.

You metnion about indians being strong supporters of U.S and that it is

good thing. I think not. To play second fiddle to a superpower is in

our blood. And pakistanis have taken a longer lead over us. Developing

a healthy business relationship should not translate to absolute

servility towards the americans. The chinese know how to do just that.

Is it ever possible for indians or pakistanis to get their act together

and decide their destinies by themselves without interference from

outside? How do you manage to swallow pakistani humilation in mukhtaran

mai`s case and appreciate phone calls from U.S to musharraf to do about

turns. It all boils down to not having a local system in place which

could have justly decided a pakistani`s fate in her homeland. The

humilation is a result of mental lethargy and a will to govern one`s

own destiny. Why seek freedom then? People who fought for their freedom

also put a system to preserve it forever. Like they did in India. And

we love Bose for trying for such a freedom. Not to sit and take anyone

else as superior to us. But to believe in ourselves.

Those who wanted to believe in britain`s constitution had the privilige

not to act at all and thus be called wise in hidsight. Those who

thought otherwise did whatever was necessary to get rid of them.
To me his detrmination to fight the brits took him across continenets

and mobilize an army, which by those days standards was extraordinary

in itself.

It is not strange that history in both india and pakistan has been

twisted to suit interests. But I find it ironical that in india ( which

is labeled as hindu india) history was twisted by leftists to not give

due share to freedom fighters like Bose or others who went aganist

Gandhi. Pakistan, which was founded by a person who never fought

against the british was hailed as a great freedom fighter. To me Bose

is a hero unlike jinnah who rocked his own ship without contributing

anything to its formation. Remember, that Bose too differed with

Gandhi, but that did not lead him to demand a separate nation. He

simply went ahead to apply the method he believed in.

A google search will tell you that the best estimate of number of

people killed by japs is 6 millions. Here`s the academic link to that.
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP3.HTM

One last word. While discussing politics like on this board, I hope you

do not take anything personally. Please take everything in the spirit

of discussion.

Adios

drlokraj: greetings. I beg to agree differ, like HP also does, with your thinking that the BJP has been shown the door once and for in India. They remain the second largest opposition party, and can come back to power. The only hope is that they will continue to work within the framework of Indian democracy rather than try to replace it. And thus become more like the german CDU (with ``green`` Andrea Merkel as head) rather than the german Nazi party (with nut case Hitler as head) that the RSS brownshirts were modelled after in the 1930`s.

Also...BJP`s support comes from hindus . Hindus constitute 80% of India`s population. Many Hindus may not vote for BJP for several reasons. But BJP`s anti-muslim stance is certainly not one of them.

docloc.....to say that Indian masses showed BJP the door would be inaccurate. It was a hung assembly in which BJP got only a half a dozen seats less than the winning party - Congress. In India elections are dominated by local , regional issues where concepts like leaking drainages , dry water taps and presence of pot holes are of much greater importance than vague concepts such as secularism/fascism/whatever. So expect no political party to win with a majority. Last time BJP got the boot. Next time it will be Congress` turn.