Bunty aur Babli: The latest RSS-BJP tango

I think RSS and Hindu nationalist love Bose because he went to Hitler and Nazis for help. We all know that RSS and VHP both love Nazis and Hitler. Birds of a feather....

Also , for us `right wing hindus` , the greatest god is the motherland - India. Whether Netaji followed conventional hindu rituals or had any devotion for ram, shiv etc. is immaterial , because he certainly was devoted to India. And so he is our leader.

``What is surprising to me however is why Bose, who was secular nationalist to the last bone, is such a revered hero for the right wing Hindus. The great irony is that Gandhi, who was much more obviously and consciously Hindu, is hated by the Hindu right wingers and a secular Indian nationalist who wanted a secular dictator like Kemal Ataturk in India to crush all religious forces, especially that of the majority i.e. Hindu, is such a hero for them?``

Hinduism is not an organised religion like islam or christianity. Each of us have different interpretations of hinduism. For `Right Wing Hindus` like me.....Gandhi was never a hindu to begin with. His concepts of `non-violence` do not have a precendence in hinduism. Non-violence , `show the other cheek` is a christian concept , taken directly from jesus christ . Gandhi gave us a christianised version of hinduism which most us dont agree with. And with every passing generation , Gandhi is loathed by more and more by Indians , while appreciated by non-Indians. So Gandhi today is more of an icon for the Western liberals than he is for India.


And this feeling of contempt for Gandhi , Nehru and their non-violence comes from within , from the heart - a totally spontaneous reaction. We are taught about Gandhi and Nehru in our school books. Netaji Bose is reduced to a little footnote. Gandhi is lionised by the successive governments while Netaji ignored. And yet , its Netaji we care about. Not Gandhi , not Nehru. Netaji is the ONLY freedom fighter Indians love and admire.

TAhmed: Your perspective is based on hindisght. You have to go back in time and imagine how things were then.

1. Excluding Bose, no one in the Congress supported Japs. That is a fact. The Quit India Movement was launched THREE years after Britain enjoined India in ww2 and Congress patience to get a specific promise from the Brits ran thin. At that time, if British rule was to continue, then there was no point in supporting the British war effort.

2. Jinnah`s reason to not join the Quit India movement had everything to do with trying to cut a deal with the Brits for the Muslim League and nothing to do with fighting Nazis and Japs.

3. Even if you are to take the example of other Asian nations such as Burmese and Malays, they did fight the English an supported the Japanese. Things turned around after Japanese too commited atrocities, no doubt. But the key point is that every Asian Nationalist excpet the Chinese (who had been fighting Japan for many years prior) did take advantage of Japanese attacks to fight against the Brits.


YLH

``What is surprising to me however is why Bose, who was secular nationalist to the last bone, is such a revered hero for the right wing Hindus.``

Because you often confuse Right Wing Indians with Right Wing Hindus. Most Nationalist Hindus believe in secularism, ie keeping religion in the private or at best cultural realm and the state to be divorced from Religion.

What we had instead was the Gandhi inspired ``respect for all religions`` which results in the state getting involved in religion (maybe in well meaning way) but pissing off someone or the other.

You yourself talk about Gandhi involving the Mullahs in political life and also talking about Ram Rajya in the same breadth. I feel like telling Gandhi, Ullu key Patthey, u are sowing the seeds of discord right here. Sure, Hindus and Muslims will love each other`s religion for some time but at best it would be a temporary phenomenon. What happens when the good feelings do not last? You can draw a straight line from one Gandhi involving Maulanas to another Gandhi 80 years later going and asking the Mosque Keeper of Jama Masjid for a Fatwa asking Muslims to vote for him.

``The great irony is that Gandhi, who was much more obviously and consciously Hindu, is hated by the Hindu right wingers and a secular Indian nationalist who wanted a secular dictator like Kemal Ataturk in India to crush all religious forces, especially that of the majority i.e. Hindu, is such a hero for them?``

See above. Since the ``secular`` space was occupied by Congress, and the imagery and history of Indian freedom was so completely dominated by Nehruites, where would people like us go?

Re: # 236


You are right about sowing the seeds of discord... hence Jinnah`s famous speech and letter to Gandhi in Nagpur Congress session 1920. ``You will turn not just Hindu against Muslim, but Hindu against Hindu and Muslim against Muslim``

#233 I realize that many of my fellow Pakistanis have a low opinion of the US. That is a pity, and I dont share it. I think the US is by far the finest country on earth (as I have often discussedon chowk).

Also note, these same Pakistanis who bad-mouth the US would be the first ones to run to the US if they got a US visa. In this sense, I will agree that Indians are indeed more sensible and honest than many Pakistanis - they dont bad mouth the US (per the pew research), while they are as eager to come to the US as Pakistanis.

Finally note that this has largely to do with middle east politics. Otherwise, Pakistanis love to adopt trends started in the US.

dm #232 you say ``my basic point isthat Bose may have made errors of judgement but if you are going to trash an icon of a billion people as ``stupid``, ``low character``, ``willing to ellout``, ``puppet``, ``excusefor a human being``, you should at least read up a little about him before making an unbiased opinion about him. ``

First, while the words I know may seem harsh, please note that these are simple common sense conclusions one would draw from the undeniable facts of history. Since there are obviously individuals on chowk (yourself e.g.) who have greater knowledge of Bose than I do, and they have not been able to deny these facts or provide additional details, I am not sure what I would be able to learn that these people do not already know.

Second, as you may have noticed from discussions on other subjects (religion e.g.) , I dont believe in human icons. No human is a god, or even without human weaknesses and faults (as they used to say, no man is a hero to his valet). Also, please note that very smart people can do very stupid things. Even Hitler himself (Bose`s big brother) made some stupid mistakes (like biting off more than he could chew when he took on Russia, or by letting the british army get away at Dunkirk, and so on), as did the Japs (who vastly underestimated the resilience and resources of the US) when they attacked the US at pearl harbor. Maybe if Bose had kept his ICS job he would have done more for the people of India, instead of merely turning Indian soldiers against their own brothers-in-arms in order to help the japs take over india.

Third, I think it is appalling that we have ``national icons`` who are considered beyond any criticism - even one based on historical facts and common sense. btw, many Pakistanis of course have the same problem too with human icons, but I am not one of them. How can a people be truly free if they are discouraged from looking at historical facts and draw common sense conclusions simply because some individual is an icon? In thise sense both Pakistanis and Indians have a long way to go, I think.

I find it interesting that you say Bose is an icon to a billion indians, while at the same time say that it is Gandhi,. Nehru etc. who are favorably focussed on in indian textbooks. I dont see too many Gandhi supporters here on chowk - which is a pity.

Tahmed #225
``What else do they teach you in India...``
Dunno. Dunno what they teach in Pakistan either. But, the results of all that teaching (Bose or no Bose, Jinnah or no Jinnah) in both countries is now becoming clear:

``The latest survey by the Pew Global Attitudes Project, conducted among nearly 17,000 people in the United States and 15 other countries from April 20-May 31, 2005 finds that America’s image is strongest in India. Fully 71% in India express a positive opinion of the United States, compared with 54% three years ago``. Pakistan ranked at the bottom.

Favorable Opinion of the US held in Country:
US (83%)
India (71%)
Poland (62%)
Canada (59%)
Britain (55%)
Russia (52%)
Netherlands (45%)
France (43%)
China (42%)
Germany (41%)
Spain (41%)
Indonesia (38%)
Turkey (23%)
Pakistan (23%)

http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=247

What gives? What are they teaching in India and Pakistan? Have a nice day.

Re: # 233

That`s why acc. to a state dept. official , India is a `deserving candidate and worthy of US endorsement` for a permanent UNSC seat, and the official went on to add that the final decision rests with Bush.Manmohan is due to visit DC Jul19 and hopefully he`ll take the Pew list and clinch the deal.

tahmed32:

``Your basic point now is that it was mere british propoganda and the japs were in fact fine fellows seeking to free the rest of asia from colonial rule.``

If you take this as my basic point, it is no wonder that you are having problem understanding Bose:-)

No sireee...my basic point isthat Bose may have made errors of judgement but if you are going to trash an icon of a billion people as ``stupid``, ``low character``, ``willing to ellout``, ``puppet``, ``excusefor a human being``, you should at least read up a little about him before making an unbiased opinion about him.

And you are wrong about two other things. First, Jinnah was not the only one who supported the British in the war effort; he had the ``illustrious`` company of the the RSS and Hindu nationalist Savarkar in this. As far as I know (Manto, please correct me if I am wrong!), Jinnah never said anything against Bose`s Indian National Army and in fact spoke up in favour of its prisoners of war in 1946.

Secondly, if he is still remembered in India -and I am not sure that he is to the same extent as he was in my generation- it is despite of and not because of what they teach in India. In Indian schools, they give importance only to Gandhi, Nehru and the Congress Party in gaining independence. The Indian history version is the one that you see in the film `Gandhi`.

Manto:
``The great irony is that Gandhi, who was much more obviously and consciously Hindu, is hated by the Hindu right wingers and a secular Indian nationalist who wanted a secular dictator like Kemal Ataturk in India to crush all religious forces, especially that of the majority i.e. Hindu, is such a hero for them?``

Good question, although I do not think that Hindus hated the Mahatama. I think that the reason may be that, contrary to the popular impression, the Hindu religion does not teach non-violence. Like in the Bollywood films, Hindus like their heroes to beat up the bad guys, not the other way round, as Gandhi got beaten by his tormentors. The heroes of Hindus in Ramayana and Mahabharat are all warriors and not banias. But they also give attach piety to personal renunciation (`tyaag`), this is why Gandhi became the Mahatma and Bose became Netaji.

Maharana #224:

That was an interesting link to Shayam Bengal`s movie. Thanks.

``..Bose (photo), a revolutionary lawyer and leader of the Congress Party in India who stood in direct confrontation with Gandhi’s passive and nonviolent resistance methods against the British, escaped from India in 1941 following British imprisonment and made his way to Berlin, after failing to get himself smuggled to the Soviet Union.``

Bose`s escape from British prison and his determination in getting military help from Soviet Union, Germany or Japan makes an awe-inspiring saga. Imperial spies hounded him every step of his way and it was good willl of fellow `Indians` in Peshawar that covered his final escape. That he could stand up to Hitler and ask for deletion of passages from Mein Kampf puts him way above both `Majboori ka nam` Gandhi and `constitutionalist` lackey Jinnah.

Is this what Pakistan all about?.If so, I AM PROUD TO BE AN INDIAN.

Last Updated: Friday, 24 June, 2005, 15:55 GMT 16:55 UK

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Thousands at Sunni cleric funeral

The funeral passed peacefully but tension remains high
More than 10,000 mourners have attended the funeral of a Sunni Muslim cleric in the Pakistani city of Karachi amid protests at his murder.
Mufti Attiqur Rahman was shot in his car by unidentified gunmen on Thursday. A second man in the vehicle died later.

Junior minister Amir Liaquat Hussain went to offer condolences at a city mosque but was beaten by a mob, he told the BBC.

Karachi has been Last Updated: Friday, 24 June, 2005, 15:55 GMT 16:55 UK

E-mail this to a friend Printable version

Thousands at Sunni cleric funeral

The funeral passed peacefully but tension remains high
More than 10,000 mourners have attended the funeral of a Sunni Muslim cleric in the Pakistani city of Karachi amid protests at his murder.
Mufti Attiqur Rahman was shot in his car by unidentified gunmen on Thursday. A second man in the vehicle died later.

Junior minister Amir Liaquat Hussain went to offer condolences at a city mosque but was beaten by a mob, he told the BBC.

Karachi has been torn by Sunni-Shia sectarian violence in recent years.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4618311.stm

Re: # 229

So you need Pakistan to justify your pride in India?

Mike,

I have no desire to rile up the Indians. My criticism of Gandhi is based on his own writings.
About Bose... I admire the guy despite his obvious mistake in the second world war. In my estimate Bose set out to be another Kemal Ataturk... but ended up being Enver Pasha.

What is surprising to me however is why Bose, who was secular nationalist to the last bone, is such a revered hero for the right wing Hindus. The great irony is that Gandhi, who was much more obviously and consciously Hindu, is hated by the Hindu right wingers and a secular Indian nationalist who wanted a secular dictator like Kemal Ataturk in India to crush all religious forces, especially that of the majority i.e. Hindu, is such a hero for them?

-YLH

Re: # 227

PS to confirm my view of Bose, his character and his writing ... please read Sources of Indian tradition volume 2

#224

This debate really has nothing to do with Pakistani or not. Many Pakistani acknowledge Bose’s contribution and what tahmed is questioning is his role during the second WW. That is a controversial aspect of his political life in India and Tahmed’s questions are legitimate. He is only questioning that particular segment of Bose’s political life and I just don’t see anyone can justify and rationalize his actions during that time. His intentions may be noble but his political judgment and decisions were hugely flawed.

``But the much-awaited meeting on May 27, 1942, ended in disappointment for the Indian revolutionary. ``In that meeting, he [Bose] asked Hitler to cut out passages in ``Mein Kampf`` dealing with Asians and [Hitler said] that it was better for India to remain under British domination. Hitler refused to help him``

This is an interesting quote and if Hitler was so upfront with SC Bose as early as 1942, then what explanation Bose had to continually support the Nazis and then follow that up with supporting Japanese?

Saying that Japanese had soft corner for Indians is hogwash. They may had soft corner for Indian as long as the war was on but what were they going to do once the victory for Japanese was sealed.(lucky for all that did not happen) It is not hard to answer. Japanese conduct with other nations was a good pointer.
Politicians are no saints or holy figures and calling them stupid or other things should not be a problem for anybody.