Our Turkic Connection

Re:googenschlaugen#33

``Let`s try to make the present and future better. Not much can be done about the past. I think India, with the 2nd largest Muslim population in the world with its democratic credentials and renowned tolerance, is the ideal place to prove that good will overcome evil for all people.``

I agree with you. But the ball is really in Pakistan`s court to acomplish this. Over the years, India has taken tremendous steps to implement a democratic and highly secular polity. In fact, the current government in power in Delhi is probably the most secular government in the world. Even Advani has paid homage to Jinnah and explicitly endorsed partition. In Kashmir, India has started the bus service and allowed the APHC leaders to visit Pakistan. It held free and fair elections in Kashmir giving them full self-government and has given billions in aid to develop Kashmir.

In spite of this, we have 10-15 people getting killed every day in Kashmir. The violence has not stopped. Even school children have been blown up. Pakistan is unable to govern its own territory successfully, yet it is relentless in asking for a territorial settlement of Kashmir i.e. take over more land. It is unwilling to open up trade, transit or travel until Kashmir resolved. Its hard stance against normalization has created a level of frustration where people are feeling that hindu-muslim issues and Indo-Pak issues are unresolveable. The Pakistani view is that normal, decent relations with India is equal to capitulation - the end of the dream for Islamic supremacy in the subcontinent. It is viewed as some sort of defeat for the original purpose of Islam arriving here. Thus the unwillingness to coexist comes from the Muslim side as they are alway trying to disturb the status quo to harm hindus. Hindus have been trying to coexist forever.

Ranjit #32, {``This opposition is against the entire hindu faith across all cultural differences i.e. the Punjabi hindu is hated as much as the Tamilian hindu or the Kashmiri hindu. The logic behind this hatred or opposition is simple - propagate the faith by pulling down the local religion and create a class of people loyal to muslim rulers. ...

Now if South Asian muslims really give up their opposition to hindus and behave like their counterparts in Iran and Afghanistan in terms of affinity to local culture, then the dynamics can change. If there is no threat, there is no need for a defense.``}

Ranjit, my friend, I do not blame you for having that type of black and white attitude about Muslims and Islam. The track record of Muslims in the subcontinent has not been exemplary from the conquest of Mohammed Bin Qasim all the way down to the partition of 1947. Of course, there were numerous periods and examples of justice, affection, compassion, and understanding. What you are missing is that as cruel as Muslim rule and Muslim conqueriors may have been, they were equally, if not more, cruel to other Muslims. Please do not look at Islam and Muslims as a monolith. The religious wars between Shias and Sunnis, as recently as Iraq/Iran and the blowing up of Shia mosques in Pakistan are examples of the basic intolerance that permeates the Islamic experience and Muslim history. Believe me, Hindus were not singled out for destruction, butchery, and intolerance. Muslims excel in doing these things to other Muslims. As they say, charity begins at home.
Let`s try to make the present and future better. Not much can be done about the past. I think India, with the 2nd largest Muslim population in the world with its democratic credentials and renowned tolerance, is the ideal place to prove that good will overcome evil for all people.

Re:Romair#29

``Do you consider all Hindus to be one group i.e. one civilization? Do you similarly consider Muslims to be a different and unique civilization?``

Great questions. I do not consider all hindus to be one group or one civilization, given regional differences, linguistic difference and even in religious rituals.

However, I do consider that all muslims belong to a different and unique civilization in the South Asian context. The reason is that since the days of Mohd. bin Qasim, muslims all over South Asia have been systematically indoctrinated to be against hindus. This opposition is against the entire hindu faith across all cultural differences i.e. the Punjabi hindu is hated as much as the Tamilian hindu or the Kashmiri hindu. The logic behind this hatred or opposition is simple - propagate the faith by pulling down the local religion and create a class of people loyal to muslim rulers. This opposition mindset overpowers all the cultural differences that exist among muslims since they are united in this sentiment. It was this opposition that fueled the muslim league to oppose the congress. It was this opposition that resulted in partition where even muslims in South India supported Pakistan knowing fully well that they would never go there.

Why is this mindset only among South Asian muslims? Primarily because Islam was not successful in 100% conversion of India unlike in Iran or Afghanistan. In those countries, once the entire population got converted, the muslim vs local conflict had no meaning left. Hence muslims were willing to retain some of the local traditions and cultures and even defend those practices. Therefore, you see cultural differences between Iranians, Iraqis, Afghans etc based on traditional geographic contours. But you do not see that in India, where Punjabi muslims and Punjabi hindus still hate each other as they did in 1000 AD.

Hence I believe that the only way for hindus to defend themselves and succeed in South Asia is to morph our identity and dissolve our cultural differences to create a religious identity. Hindus traditionally do not have that mindset. When hindus were losing to muslims in Punjab, people in Bihar or Tamil Nadu did not care. Soon entire India got conquered. Well, that apathy must never occur again. A strong hindu identity will enable us to unite and defend our faith and way of life.

Now if South Asian muslims really give up their opposition to hindus and behave like their counterparts in Iran and Afghanistan in terms of affinity to local culture, then the dynamics can change. If there is no threat, there is no need for a defense. However, I do not see that happening. Even now, every Pakistani wants negative things to happen to India all the time. They do not want it to succeed economically or as a nation. They reflexively oppose India`s growth and power. Of course, they want Kashmir but that is not the only thing. They will oppose India being given a permanent seat in the UN. In fact, they will just oppose anything good that happens to India. So we have to recognize that mindset and react to it.

Khan Sahib,
Thank you for this very interesting article about the impact of the Turkic peoples. History is fascinating when enjoyed for its sheer existence and not for any ulterior purpose. You have done that.
Thanks,
Salim Ahmed Chauhan.

nhk: Another interesting article. Lots of facts put together. A study of languages does indeed provide insights into history. It is true that Urdu is itself is derived from the Turkish word Urd, meaning military camp - and the word Urd being also the root for the english words Horde, which is what the europeans picked up the word Urd to mean.

The origins of words provides important insights into the tides history. Thus, in the 400 years of what was in effect French rule over England - i.e. between the Battle of Hastings (1088) and the Battle of Agincourt (1415) - when the French language was the language of the court and thus of the nobility, the english language was enriched by a very large number of french words. Prior to that, during the rule of the Danes (second half of the first millenium), a large number of nordic words were introduced. Latin was introduced during Roman rule that ended 471 AD (I think that was the date). Further study of the nature of these words has provided historians important insights into the nature of the Roman, Danish, and French ``Raj`` over England. Thus, the Roman rule introduced christianity, Danish rule replaced old anglo-saxon words, and French rule introduced words associated with the nobility and the crown.

Similar study of the nature of sanskrit, old panjabi, turkish, persian, arabic and english words in the urdu language will no doubt reveal similar insights in to the impact of these various civilizations n what is now Pakistan.

Could that perhaps be your next project, NHK? Going deeper into the nature of words that have come into urdu from various sources (be warned - this is the kind of investigation that could take a lifetime and you would still have more to find out.)

Ranjit #26: ``If only we hindus had the foresight to construct a wall along our western borders, we would have been the best country in the world.``

Do you consider all Hindus to be one group i.e. one civilization? Do you similarly consider Muslims to be a different and unique civilization? Or do you consider civilizations to be based more on local features, cultures, habits, etc.?

I have, alternatively, seen such remarks made on this site. On the one hand, there seems to be a complaint that South Asian Muslims should look outside of religion, and more towards their local civilizations. These are based primarily along current provinces.

On the other hand, there seems to be projection of the Hindu ciivilization being one civilization, based on a common religion, regardless of massive cultural differences, between various different areas.........

Which one is the correct and accepted description?

Chinese are quite a bit more homogenous, independently of religion, than Indians. There civilizational base as one group, is thus, far stronger..................

Re: #26 by ranjit

AMEN

[As for us, besides the architecture and gardens fetish, this Turkic connection also gave us the first stitched cloth – shalwar.]

I am forced to repeat a post I had made previously. At that time, no one had the courtesy of admitting their mistake.

Let’s see what happens this time around.

Here’s the quote again:

Some raise the question of the origin of tailored clothing in India, pointing out that the ancient texts speak only of wrapped whole cloth such as the present day dhoti, and, in elaborated form, the sari. Stitched clothing, a product of colder climates, was present in India long before the Muslim invasions. In the exhaustive study, Indian Costume, author G.S. Ghurye, states, ``The period of Muslim domination seems to have only stabilized the already evolved costumes and spread some of the regional varieties much further than their original home.`` Ghurye points out that a picture of Buddha as Prince Siddhartha in the Ajanta frescoes of about 440CE - long before Islam was propounded - show him wearing ‘cudidara pyjama’ and the prototype of what has been known for more than a generation as the ``Nehru shirt,``` states Ghurye.

If only we hindus had the foresight to construct a wall along our western borders, we would have been the best country in the world. The Chinese were really smart to do that and keep out all the riff-raff, garbage from coming in and polluting their country. As a result, they are on the path to becoming a superpower, while we are dealing with a nuisance like Pakistan.

Its still not too late. We must have fences and walls all along our current borders and completely keep out anyone west from us from ever getting in.

Terranova # 22

Most Pakistanis think that the Turks originated from Turkey. And their knowledge about Turks revolves around the Khilafat episode.

Not many are aware that people in Eastern China (Uighers) speak Turkish. In 70s, when I went to China - Shinjan province, a few of my friends who had been on an exchange posting to Turkey could speak in Turkish with the locals much to the consternation of our interpretr who spoke in Urdu. The Chinese preferred that the interpretor `filter` remains in communication.

I think since the last two decades, the Arabs have begun to figure a bit too much in our outside relationships.

Urdu is a Turkish word meaning Laskhar (Fauj) - I think!

nhk

Antihypochrist, Kamath, Rozaiba, Manto

Thanks. In the search to get answers to my own inner questions, I not only end up learning a bit more but get a few surprises also.

nhk

Dost & Temp

Thanks. This topic was really a `shaitan ki Aant`. These Turks had their finger in the pie for a 1000 years from Europe to Anatolia to Middle East to Iran to India to Afghanistan and Pakistan. Even Russia and China were involved.

So one had to browse through all those histories and mercilessly throw away which was not strictly relevant to the topic.

nhk

i don`t think the turkish connection is played down in pakistan..

i`ve always heard about our close post-modern turkish bonds, and been impressed with the familiarity that most pakistanis and turks hold towards each other (as opposed to the weird enmity that most persians and pakistanis have for each other despite being neighbours)

in addition, isn`t the very word ``urdu`` itself a turkish word meaning ``camp``?

Well written and argued...

Maybe flying was the wrong career choice... but I suppose... better late than never.

Re: # 19

thanks..... It will be handy for future.....!
I have posted my request on your profile page..

aquaris#14

my email is nazarhayatkhan@yahoo.com

nhk