Who Tarnished the Image of Pakistan?

KHAMKHWA IS A KHASSEY
KHAmKHWA IS A KHASSEY

DHIN DHINAK DHIN DHA
DHIN DHINAK DHIN DHA
DHIN DHINAK DHIN DHA
DHIN DHINAK DHIN DHA

KHAMKHWA IS A GIGOLO
KHAMKHWA IS A GIGOLO

DHIN DHINAK DHIN DHA
DHIN DHINAK DHIN DHA
DHIN DHINAK DHIN DHA
DHIN DHINAK DHIN DHA

nauman9 #18

`` Legal loop holes do exist in other systems, as well. It is not always easy to prosecute all criminals, all the time. One recent example is of the US courts where they failed twice to convict Micheal Jackson on alleged molestations charges of young children. ``


No child in MJ case ever alleged he sodomized him. There was so semen, no fractured asshole, no evidence of any forced abuse. There were witnesses alleging they saw MJ do something to someone. Their testimonies were discredited owing to their being interested parties.

nauman9 #18

`` 3) Swift justice was provided by the anti-terrorism court which handed out capital punishments to six convicts. It is unfortunate that it was later overturned by the High court based on technicalities. Now the case is with the Supreme Court. We have to wait and see how it pans out. ``

Why does an anti-terrorism court have to handle a common rape case ?

`` 4) The incidence of rape in Pakistan is not on the rise, it has remained the same ( much lower than the civilized world). Such crimes including gang-rape does not occur ``everyday`` as you have indicated.``

Do you have any evidence to prove this ?


`` Legal loop holes do exist in other systems, as well. It is not always easy to prosecute all criminals, all the time. One recent example is of the US courts where they failed twice to convict Micheal Jackson on alleged molestations charges of young children. ``

If Michael Jackson was not convicted it is lack of evidence. In USA a jury decides if a defendant is guilty. The jury is twelve of your fellow citizens.

Xari Jalil:

I agree with the sentiment reflected in the article. There is no doubt that putting Mai on exit control list was a lousy PR move on the part of the government. It back-fired.

I failed to acknowledge your effort as an author, initially. Please accept my apologies.

Few corrections for the records:

1) Mai was not raped by twelve men. A total of fourteen people were indicted, four for rape and the rest were from the tribal jirga for their role in the crime.

2) Hudood Ordinance was not passed thirty years ago (close! It passed in 1979).

3) Swift justice was provided by the anti-terrorism court which handed out capital punishments to six convicts. It is unfortunate that it was later overturned by the High court based on technicalities. Now the case is with the Supreme Court. We have to wait and see how it pans out.

4) The incidence of rape in Pakistan is not on the rise, it has remained the same ( much lower than the civilized world). Such crimes including gang-rape does not occur ``everyday`` as you have indicated.

Legal loop holes do exist in other systems, as well. It is not always easy to prosecute all criminals, all the time. One recent example is of the US courts where they failed twice to convict Micheal Jackson on alleged molestations charges of young children.

sifzal #14

`` I saw the news revealing the tragedy of London, it made me sad and dismayed…but then I have seen things even more deplorable, things that are even worse …ignorance of mass in the west and even in the developing countries under the influence of foreign media which most of the time is biased, racist …or let me think are they ignorant themselves… ``

What makes you think Pakistani media is not biased ? I get the feeling the Urdu press in Pakistan is no better than Nazi propaganda machine.

`` Reading #13 one can see in it a scavenger philosophy... worst thing is that the person does not know him/herself… ``

His comments were in poor taste.

`` What racism is, I only came to know when I started living with the “professionals” of the developed nations. When bombs strikes in the west, its terrorism because people not wearing a uniform do it. Kashmir, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Iraq suffers hundreds of thousands death by hundred of thousands uniform people…no mourning, no photo just a normal thing so move on… ``

Tell me how many people died in US military actions in Afghanistan. Contrast that with the mess created by the Taliban which was supported by Pakistani military.

I did not see Iraq included in your rantings when Saddam was in charge.

More people have died in Sudan than Iraq in the past 10 years. Yet you did not include Sudan.

`` I only wish I could tell the misguided young ones…that taking lives of innocents or for that matter of your own is just not allowed in Islam – its an unforgivable sin…so I turned to their souls and said the same, they responded…”we know and we are sorry, but we had to do it to make them realize how is it to live in pain and fear as they have made many nations to live with...” I responded, “it still not justify your act”…and they whispered away saying…”we did what we thought was right and to make them think…but it doesn’t matter to us anymore, for now we have done our deeds … and finished with the earthly life…” ``

nothing stops you from going to madrassas and preaching love.

who tarnished pakistan`s ``image``.

pakistan tarnished pakistan`s ``image.``

that`s right...the west is racist and ignorant...pakis, OTOH, are just innocent birds of peace....


New wave of British terrorists are taught at schools, not in the mountains

HIS family were perplexed when Shehzad Tanweer decided to drop out of his sports science course at Leeds Metropolitan University at the end of last year so he could travel to Pakistan.

He told them that he desperately wanted to join a group of friends from his local mosque on a two-month visit to a religious school near Lahore.

The 22-year-old joked with his parents that he would pick up his education when he came back, adding that it would also give him the chance to visit relatives in his father’s hometown, Faisalabad, which was only 100 miles away.

Hasib Hussain’s family thought him spending some time with his relatives in Pakistan might curb the teenager’s rebellious streak and stop him spending his time hanging around street corners in Holbeck, drinking beer with local youths.

His parents thought their plan had worked when Hussain got back, a much calmer figure and with a new found enthusiasm about pursuing his Muslim faith.

Both families are now left asking themselves whether it was their sons’ journeys to their homeland that corrupted them.

Tanweer’s uncle, Bashir Ahmed, has no doubts that it was faceless figures in Pakistan who radicalised his sports-mad nephew.

“He was such a calm, loving normal boy. Extremists must have got their hands on him,” the 65-year-old Leeds businessman said yesterday.

“We all thought he had gone to continue his education. I thought he just wanted to improve his pronunciation.

“It wasn’t him. It must have been forces behind him.”

British intelligence has asked its Pakistani counterparts urgently to trace where the young Britons went, and more crucially who they met, during their study tours.

Officers need to know if the four bombers were ever there at the same time, or attended the same radical training schools.

The Pakistani authorities this week angrily denied accusations from India that terror training camps were once more thriving inside their borders.

Natwar Singh, the Indian Foreign Minister, replied that he had the photographs to prove it.

Western intelligence agencies have also long been concerned about the network of madrassas, the hardline religious schools, which have been blamed for turning out a generation of young jihadis. One institution which has been under recent scrutiny is in the industrial city of Gujranwala, which is just north of Lahore — where Tanweer was heading.

This new generation of training centres are nothing like their predecessors which were run by al-Qaeda in the years before the September 11 attacks on the US and were sited in the inhospitable mountain ranges straddling the Afghan border.

Western volunteers lived rough in the desert with hundreds of other foreign recruits and were taught to handle weapons and explosives, as well as spending hours listening to tape recordings of Osama bin Laden and other zealots.

“Today the camps are more like youth hostels,” one young activist who attended a madrassa in southern Pakistan told The Times.

“Recruits don’t spend hours scrabbling about on outward bound courses. It is more like being in a school room.”

“Organisers don’t want to turn out warriors who can strip down a Kalashnikov rifle blindfolded. They want to shape the mind, not the body.

“They want their recruits to embrace the idea of giving their lives for their cause, and doing nothing more technical than triggering the bomb they carry.”

There are long periods of Koranic study but also what organisers call “the evolution of the jihad”, which teaches how wars are no longer a battle between rival armies.

Heroic accounts of the lives — and deaths — of insurgents in Iraq are told to the class to instruct recruits: “We fight the enemy our way.”

In some cases it is young Britons who have moved from Britain to make a new life for themselves in Pakistan who lecture their fellow citizens, “to make them feel more at ease”.

“These British lecturers know how to give practical instructions like ‘don’t go to well-known radical mosques in the UK as they are under police surveillance. Don’t wander into bookshops which sell violent vidoes and militant literature as they too are being watched’.

“We were told, ‘Continue being an ordinary John’,” the former activist said.

The bombers from the backstreets of Leeds followed their instructions to the letter.

They were always seen in baggy jeans, training shoes, short haircuts and were cleanshaven, even when they turned up at the local mosque for Friday prayers.

Tanweer’s family say they cannot remember him arguing about politics. Hussain’s relatives say there was nothing aggressive in his views about how British Muslims should behave.

Experts say there is little point trying to identify the groups who recruit the young Britons because nowadays they change their names and websites with bewildering frequency.

The Harakat al-Ansar group has had five names in the past two years.

The other practical problems for the security authorities is that there is such an enormous traffic of young Britons travelling to Pakistan to visit family that it is impossible for the police to keep tabs on them, particularly when the vast majority go there for entirely innocent reasons.

There are reports of new training centres springing up around Mansehra in the North West Frontier Province, though it is not known if any British volunteers have pitched up there.

Magnus Ranstorp, director of the Centre for the Study of Terrorism and Political Violence at the University of St Andrews in Scotland said: “Of course there are still training camps.

“I don’t think you can find fully-fledged training camps in Pakistan or even Afghanistan on the same level as we had before.

“But there are many remote areas, many places where the lack of governance can provide excellent training ground. It can be done in underground shelters, abandoned houses. You don’t need large facilities.”

Some Pakistani-based militant groups are reported to still scout for recruits at mosques among Muslim communities in Britain.

Smaller British mosques have their own links with madrassas in the Punjab and other regions of Pakistan though they insist these are genuine schools of Koranic study, not terror training camps.

Well known militant groups, lsuch as Jaish-e-Mohammed, Lashkar-e-Taiba and Harkat ul Mujahideen have operated openly in the past and in some cases with the military’s support, and boasted of their British recruits.

Mohammed Bilal, a Briton who was associated with Jaish-e-Mohammed, was the UK’s first suicide bomber when in Christmas Day 2000 he rammed a vehicle packed with explosives into an Indian military post in Kashmir.

Officially, the Pakistan government — a key ally of Britain and the US in the war on terror — insists they have eradicated the culture of terror camps inside their borders.

The experiences of Shehzad Tanweer and Hasib Hussain tell a different story.

Dear All
I saw the news revealing the tragedy of London, it made me sad and dismayed…but then I have seen things even more deplorable, things that are even worse …ignorance of mass in the west and even in the developing countries under the influence of foreign media which most of the time is biased, racist …or let me think are they ignorant themselves…

Reading #13 one can see in it a scavenger philosophy... worst thing is that the person does not know him/herself…

A Wiseman said, “One can never benefit from mingling up with the low and evil mentality folks…just as no matter how many grapes you put on a thorny bush, they can only get destroyed but would not bring fruit to the thorns…

What racism is, I only came to know when I started living with the “professionals” of the developed nations. When bombs strikes in the west, its terrorism because people not wearing a uniform do it. Kashmir, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Iraq suffers hundreds of thousands death by hundred of thousands uniform people…no mourning, no photo just a normal thing so move on…

I only wish I could tell the misguided young ones…that taking lives of innocents or for that matter of your own is just not allowed in Islam – its an unforgivable sin…so I turned to their souls and said the same, they responded…”we know and we are sorry, but we had to do it to make them realize how is it to live in pain and fear as they have made many nations to live with...” I responded, “it still not justify your act”…and they whispered away saying…”we did what we thought was right and to make them think…but it doesn’t matter to us anymore, for now we have done our deeds … and finished with the earthly life…”

Latest on the `war on terror`.The british PM says `extremists will be deported`.What if they`re born in britain but of pak descent ?.If i were pak, and in the UK, i would start packing.Every pak can be deemed to be a terrorist.We indians can offer to help you out by buying your properties at 50 pence on the pound.Better than nothing!!!.I try.

Re: # 5

Nauman Sahib.....what part of `pak origin` don`t you understand?.And, please ask the international,oh, the BRIT media especially, why they keep referring to these men as british born of pak descent??.Write to the UN!!!.

#7 by teshah

``No honourable woman would have behaved like her.``

absolutely right. i suppose according to you an `honourable` woman, after being brutally gang-raped, would have either committed suicide or would have shut up and put up.

i don`t know if you are a man or woman, either way i can safely say that you have no fecking clue what honour or being honourable means. in part it means to not stay quiet in the face of injustice, whether it`s perpetrated against others or against yourself.

It is clear that only Pakistanis are to be blamed in such a context just like the Saudis. Very easy to blame economic factors that lead to men becoming fanatics but hasn`t our government policies of socalled Islamization to be blamed equally?

nauman: still in denial?

Pakistan wakes up to the hatred within
(Filed: 14/07/2005)

Ahmed Rashid reports on the link between Lahore and Leeds that has flourished over two generations but may now have been hijacked by militant Islamic fundamentalists

For the past few days at dinner parties, bazaars and newspaper offices in Lahore there has only been one topic of conversation, the fear and expectancy that the London bombers would turn out to be Pakistani.

Most were convinced that that would be the case and when the truth came out they were immediately on their mobiles, spreading the news repeating: ``What did I tell you, I told you so, this will really be the last straw.``

Many were depressed at the thought of being dubbed a nation that could export a handful of terrorists along with T-shirts, Sufi music and mangoes.

Until Tuesday the fear of a Right-wing backlash against Pakistanis living in Britain had also dominated the headlines. That is because Pakistanis are deeply sensitive about their own, even though after 58 years they still cannot agree on the nature of their nation - Islamic fundamentalist or democratic.

Those who have lived in Bradford and Leeds for two generations still come home to marry, party, holiday and celebrate religious festivals such as Eid, or Ramadan, the month of fasting.

Flights to and from London are packed in the summer.

Youngsters in sneakers, the latest jeans and speaking English in broad Yorkshire accents can be heard in Lahore`s shopping malls during any holiday period.

However more conservative parents in Yorkshire take leave of absence for their teenage sons from their British schools and send them home to study for a couple of terms. They either join madrassas - Islamic schools - or secular schools, learning Urdu, the Koran and making friends.

Those boys who join madrassa boarding schools are often indoctrinated with fundamentalist views and return home to Yorkshire changed people - urging their sisters to cover their heads and their friends to pray regularly.

In the winter of 2002 Maulana Akram Awan, a fundamentalist religious leader and politician from Chakwal in central Punjab, set up camp outside Islamabad with thousands of followers. He threatened to march on the capital to force the military regime to enforce Islamic law.

Among those camping out in the fields with him were dozens of madrassa students from Yorkshire. The elite`s fear of a backlash against British Pakistanis is heightened by the fact that London is their second home, the favourite holiday destination to escape the summer heat, shop till they drop and still the best place to send their children to university. Now, during the summer sales, a visiting Pakistani can hardly walk down a street in Knightsbridge or Kensington without bumping into a Pakistani he knows from home.

On Tuesday night the first thought for many of them was how suspiciously they would be viewed when they showed their passports at Heathrow. But when they sit down to reflect as more emerges about the London bombers, they are likely to become even more depressed.

It is already clear that one or two of the bombers visited Pakistan recently, possibly to train with an extremist group.

For the past two decades a small number of militants have killed and maimed their fellow citizens in the name of Islam, various Islamic sects or self-created concepts of male honour. These killing fields in the name of Islam, abhorred by the majority of their fellow citizens, were then exported abroad where Pakistani militant groups supported fellow extremists in Kashmir, Afghanistan, Central Asia, Chechnya and the former Yugoslavia.

Pakistani extremists have been closely linked to the army which saw in them a cheap and non-attributable opportunity to keep India at bay, maintain the country`s Islamic influence abroad and undermine any chance of civilian democracy at home.

This ``military-mullah`` alliance is widely assumed to have been born in 1977 after the army coup that bought General Zia Ul Haq to power. However in a new book called Pakistan - between Mosque and Military, scholar-diplomat Hussain Haqqani shows how the alliance goes back as far as 1951.

Many Pakistanis hoped that September 11 2001 would give the army a chance to change its disastrous policies and end its alliance with the mullahs.

General Pervez Musharraf`s military regime could make peace with Afghanistan and India, crack down hard on militant groups and turn its back on extremism.

Gen Musharraf promised a policy of enlightened moderation but little has been done. Thousands of religious schools still spew out hate against non-Muslims and leaders of militant groups still wander the country giving sermons.

Gen Musharraf has squandered the lavish aid and support given to him by the US and Britain after September 11. Extremism continues to flourish and democracy is further away than ever.

This month the widely circulated magazine Herald reports that a dozen training camps for militants, which closed down after September 11, were revived in May with official blessing.

Last month several Pakistani-Americans arrested on terrorism charges in California, admitted to training in such camps. The London bombers were probably in touch with a local Pakistani group rather than al-Qa`eda.

Pakistanis are fed up with being in the eye of the storm and just want to lead a normal life. They want to see an end to violence at home and a bad image abroad. When that will happen is anybody`s guess.

nauman9 #5

Cayenne and bbabu:

`` The suspected bombers are Britons who killed their own people for reasons, unclear at the moment. They are not Pakistanis. Period.

A “particular descent” does not make one prone to a particular type of criminal activity. I do not believe that Pakistani people have “bomber genes” in them, which can be passed on to their successive generations. ``

For the record I do not think the ancestry decides criminal activity. Culture might !!!

Let us not pretend there is no connection between conservative nature of some British Pakistani immigrants, militancy of some Islamic clerics, their visits to Pakistan and their suicide bombings.

The simplest question to ask why should these individuals conduct a suicide bombing. They could placed the bombs anywhere in the subway or on any crowded bus and slipped out. Yeah they could be caught. But the bombs would have killed their targets. By committing suicide who are they protecting. Let me guess the mastermind of the plot wants to protect some murderous thug hiding in Pakistan. I am not referring to Osama Bin Laden.

`` If your argument is true then it would be fair to say that “Indians are tarnishing the image of India” as shown by two brothers of Indian descent; Satish and Deepak Kalpoe by their probable involvement in the murder/disappearance of Natalee Holloway in Aruba.``

Satish and Deepak Kalpoe are Indians probably by genes. They are citizens of Surinam. They are culturally quite alien to contemporary Indian society. There is no record of them visiting India. Indians in Surinam are too poor to afford a plane ticket to India. Plus they might not have any relatives in India.

Xari
A presumptuous harangue, isn`t it? There are contradicting stories about the rape of my, mostly hearsay. The High Court says there was no evidence of rape of Mai. It nevertheless sentenced one accused who confessed that he had sex with Mai but not as a rapist but as her husband. Mai denied having honourable sex as a wife as terming it as rape seemed more preferable and profitable to her. No honourable woman would have behaved like her. As for the rulers less said the better. They all got their faces blackened by bestowing extraordinary favoures on the low-caste Mai who later on got into the hands of NGOs, all with their selfish agendas. Thanks to my, the rulers, the judicial system, the NGOs all stand exposed now. Only the Mai gets rich and famous, proving the truth of the saving of a Punjabi sage-cum-poet Mian Mohammad Bakhsh:

Neechaan di ashnai kolon feiz kisse nah paaya
kikar te angoor charhaya te har guchha zakhmaya

#5 by nauman9 on July 13, 2005 6:34pm PT



I do not believe that Pakistani people have “bomber genes” in them, which can be passed on to their successive generations.


One of the bombers was a wild teen...A trip to Pakiland and hey presto...he becomes a suicide bomber....I`m sure there`s no connection....

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1693289,00.html
The uncle of Shehzad Tanweer anxiously insists that his nephew must have fallen under the influence of radical Muslims when he went to Pakistan last year.

If your argument is true then it would be fair to say



You could say it and your paki brethren would buy it....but the rest of the world doesn`t see it that way...unfortunately(for you), the world agrees what what the Indians think about a majority of pakis being pro-jihadi if not jihadi...and how Pakiland is a breeding ground for terrorism..