Who Tarnished the Image of Pakistan?
Xari Jalil July 13, 2005
#18 Posted by nauman9 on July 14, 2005 10:42:30 am
Xari Jalil:
I agree with the sentiment reflected in the article. There is no doubt that putting Mai on exit control list was a lousy PR move on the part of the government. It back-fired.
I failed to acknowledge your effort as an author, initially. Please accept my apologies.
Few corrections for the records:
1) Mai was not raped by twelve men. A total of fourteen people were indicted, four for rape and the rest were from the tribal jirga for their role in the crime.
2) Hudood Ordinance was not passed thirty years ago (close! It passed in 1979).
3) Swift justice was provided by the anti-terrorism court which handed out capital punishments to six convicts. It is unfortunate that it was later overturned by the High court based on technicalities. Now the case is with the Supreme Court. We have to wait and see how it pans out.
4) The incidence of rape in Pakistan is not on the rise, it has remained the same ( much lower than the civilized world). Such crimes including gang-rape does not occur ``everyday`` as you have indicated.
Legal loop holes do exist in other systems, as well. It is not always easy to prosecute all criminals, all the time. One recent example is of the US courts where they failed twice to convict Micheal Jackson on alleged molestations charges of young children.
I agree with the sentiment reflected in the article. There is no doubt that putting Mai on exit control list was a lousy PR move on the part of the government. It back-fired.
I failed to acknowledge your effort as an author, initially. Please accept my apologies.
Few corrections for the records:
1) Mai was not raped by twelve men. A total of fourteen people were indicted, four for rape and the rest were from the tribal jirga for their role in the crime.
2) Hudood Ordinance was not passed thirty years ago (close! It passed in 1979).
3) Swift justice was provided by the anti-terrorism court which handed out capital punishments to six convicts. It is unfortunate that it was later overturned by the High court based on technicalities. Now the case is with the Supreme Court. We have to wait and see how it pans out.
4) The incidence of rape in Pakistan is not on the rise, it has remained the same ( much lower than the civilized world). Such crimes including gang-rape does not occur ``everyday`` as you have indicated.
Legal loop holes do exist in other systems, as well. It is not always easy to prosecute all criminals, all the time. One recent example is of the US courts where they failed twice to convict Micheal Jackson on alleged molestations charges of young children.
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#17 Posted by bbabu on July 14, 2005 10:18:05 am
sifzal #14
`` I saw the news revealing the tragedy of London, it made me sad and dismayed…but then I have seen things even more deplorable, things that are even worse …ignorance of mass in the west and even in the developing countries under the influence of foreign media which most of the time is biased, racist …or let me think are they ignorant themselves… ``
What makes you think Pakistani media is not biased ? I get the feeling the Urdu press in Pakistan is no better than Nazi propaganda machine.
`` Reading #13 one can see in it a scavenger philosophy... worst thing is that the person does not know him/herself… ``
His comments were in poor taste.
`` What racism is, I only came to know when I started living with the “professionals” of the developed nations. When bombs strikes in the west, its terrorism because people not wearing a uniform do it. Kashmir, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Iraq suffers hundreds of thousands death by hundred of thousands uniform people…no mourning, no photo just a normal thing so move on… ``
Tell me how many people died in US military actions in Afghanistan. Contrast that with the mess created by the Taliban which was supported by Pakistani military.
I did not see Iraq included in your rantings when Saddam was in charge.
More people have died in Sudan than Iraq in the past 10 years. Yet you did not include Sudan.
`` I only wish I could tell the misguided young ones…that taking lives of innocents or for that matter of your own is just not allowed in Islam – its an unforgivable sin…so I turned to their souls and said the same, they responded…”we know and we are sorry, but we had to do it to make them realize how is it to live in pain and fear as they have made many nations to live with...” I responded, “it still not justify your act”…and they whispered away saying…”we did what we thought was right and to make them think…but it doesn’t matter to us anymore, for now we have done our deeds … and finished with the earthly life…” ``
nothing stops you from going to madrassas and preaching love.
`` I saw the news revealing the tragedy of London, it made me sad and dismayed…but then I have seen things even more deplorable, things that are even worse …ignorance of mass in the west and even in the developing countries under the influence of foreign media which most of the time is biased, racist …or let me think are they ignorant themselves… ``
What makes you think Pakistani media is not biased ? I get the feeling the Urdu press in Pakistan is no better than Nazi propaganda machine.
`` Reading #13 one can see in it a scavenger philosophy... worst thing is that the person does not know him/herself… ``
His comments were in poor taste.
`` What racism is, I only came to know when I started living with the “professionals” of the developed nations. When bombs strikes in the west, its terrorism because people not wearing a uniform do it. Kashmir, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Iraq suffers hundreds of thousands death by hundred of thousands uniform people…no mourning, no photo just a normal thing so move on… ``
Tell me how many people died in US military actions in Afghanistan. Contrast that with the mess created by the Taliban which was supported by Pakistani military.
I did not see Iraq included in your rantings when Saddam was in charge.
More people have died in Sudan than Iraq in the past 10 years. Yet you did not include Sudan.
`` I only wish I could tell the misguided young ones…that taking lives of innocents or for that matter of your own is just not allowed in Islam – its an unforgivable sin…so I turned to their souls and said the same, they responded…”we know and we are sorry, but we had to do it to make them realize how is it to live in pain and fear as they have made many nations to live with...” I responded, “it still not justify your act”…and they whispered away saying…”we did what we thought was right and to make them think…but it doesn’t matter to us anymore, for now we have done our deeds … and finished with the earthly life…” ``
nothing stops you from going to madrassas and preaching love.
#25 Posted by sifzal on July 15, 2005 6:09:56 am
Re: # 17
Dear bbabu
``What makes you think Pakistani media is not biased? I get the feeling the Urdu press in Pakistan is no better than Nazi propaganda machine. ``
Please read the two presses together, especially in a third country and you will come to know who is more biased...I never claimed they are not. If you still are unable to, please let me know and I will give you few examples. On the personal experiences sides, It would take me ages to tell you the incidences at various international forums...for instance, ask your Shabana Azami when she represented India and ended her speech with a Pakistani poet’s Urdu words without proper reference in Melbourne in the year 2001...let me move on to the second one...
``tell me how many people died in US military actions in Afghanistan. Contrast that with the mess created by the Taliban which was supported by Pakistani military.``
over 100,000 as per the first report and the carpet bombing has resulted into environment degradation which will last for next 100 years! I personally did not liked Taliban, for the reasons which are pure Islamic, so let it remain with me...but nevertheless let me come to your point. Taliban had placed a law and order situation, which ensured all sorts of criminal activities thinkable by any criminal...no thefts, no rape...the final thing they did was stopping the cultivation of poppy resulting into heroine...few weeks later more than $500 billion loss resulted in a developed country`s banking transactions, and was on a continuous decline...and reaction - well most of us knows the rest....
Tell me where was the world when Afghanistan was raided by a superpower, destroying their economy devastating their land and killing their people, when so called friends turned their back to them because Soviets were more powerful friends?! The only thing done was to put trade and military embargo...the civilised world response! and than came the second superpower with the help of another country to train and supply military to the generation to be known as Taliban! than the world has courage to put blame on the third country alone...amazing isn`t it...! is it because it fears the Superpower? or is it because it gave $3 trillion package despite its policy to have economic embargo for nuclear explosion...no my young fellow thanks to China and Pakistan for being in India`s neighbourhood, else it would not have received so much attention
``I did not see Iraq included in your ratings when Saddam was in charge.``
He was a cruel ruler doing wrong things to his own people...I have not much feelings for him...he is getting what he deserve...
``nothing stops you from going to madrassas and preaching love. ``
Every one is responsible for his own environment. I am doing whatever I am qualified and have gained experienced for. For peace...I have been trainer of the moderators to moderate on behalf of UNESCO around the world. Nevertheless, communicatring my message to madrassas is still on my wish list, which at the moment does not seems to be materializing soon.
My young fellow, you are not too far off the track..keep on researchoing and explore and experience with open mind...you will be amazed of what you were make believed and what is the truth...once you know...it is sad you are unable to tell the whole world about it...many died in the past many will in the future by the civilized societies...!
I did not see Iraq included in your rantings when Saddam was in charge.
Dear bbabu
``What makes you think Pakistani media is not biased? I get the feeling the Urdu press in Pakistan is no better than Nazi propaganda machine. ``
Please read the two presses together, especially in a third country and you will come to know who is more biased...I never claimed they are not. If you still are unable to, please let me know and I will give you few examples. On the personal experiences sides, It would take me ages to tell you the incidences at various international forums...for instance, ask your Shabana Azami when she represented India and ended her speech with a Pakistani poet’s Urdu words without proper reference in Melbourne in the year 2001...let me move on to the second one...
``tell me how many people died in US military actions in Afghanistan. Contrast that with the mess created by the Taliban which was supported by Pakistani military.``
over 100,000 as per the first report and the carpet bombing has resulted into environment degradation which will last for next 100 years! I personally did not liked Taliban, for the reasons which are pure Islamic, so let it remain with me...but nevertheless let me come to your point. Taliban had placed a law and order situation, which ensured all sorts of criminal activities thinkable by any criminal...no thefts, no rape...the final thing they did was stopping the cultivation of poppy resulting into heroine...few weeks later more than $500 billion loss resulted in a developed country`s banking transactions, and was on a continuous decline...and reaction - well most of us knows the rest....
Tell me where was the world when Afghanistan was raided by a superpower, destroying their economy devastating their land and killing their people, when so called friends turned their back to them because Soviets were more powerful friends?! The only thing done was to put trade and military embargo...the civilised world response! and than came the second superpower with the help of another country to train and supply military to the generation to be known as Taliban! than the world has courage to put blame on the third country alone...amazing isn`t it...! is it because it fears the Superpower? or is it because it gave $3 trillion package despite its policy to have economic embargo for nuclear explosion...no my young fellow thanks to China and Pakistan for being in India`s neighbourhood, else it would not have received so much attention
``I did not see Iraq included in your ratings when Saddam was in charge.``
He was a cruel ruler doing wrong things to his own people...I have not much feelings for him...he is getting what he deserve...
``nothing stops you from going to madrassas and preaching love. ``
Every one is responsible for his own environment. I am doing whatever I am qualified and have gained experienced for. For peace...I have been trainer of the moderators to moderate on behalf of UNESCO around the world. Nevertheless, communicatring my message to madrassas is still on my wish list, which at the moment does not seems to be materializing soon.
My young fellow, you are not too far off the track..keep on researchoing and explore and experience with open mind...you will be amazed of what you were make believed and what is the truth...once you know...it is sad you are unable to tell the whole world about it...many died in the past many will in the future by the civilized societies...!
I did not see Iraq included in your rantings when Saddam was in charge.
#16 Posted by ana on July 14, 2005 10:15:49 am
who tarnished pakistan`s ``image``.
pakistan tarnished pakistan`s ``image.``
pakistan tarnished pakistan`s ``image.``
#15 Posted by arjun_m on July 14, 2005 6:25:58 am
that`s right...the west is racist and ignorant...pakis, OTOH, are just innocent birds of peace....
New wave of British terrorists are taught at schools, not in the mountains
HIS family were perplexed when Shehzad Tanweer decided to drop out of his sports science course at Leeds Metropolitan University at the end of last year so he could travel to Pakistan.
He told them that he desperately wanted to join a group of friends from his local mosque on a two-month visit to a religious school near Lahore.
The 22-year-old joked with his parents that he would pick up his education when he came back, adding that it would also give him the chance to visit relatives in his father’s hometown, Faisalabad, which was only 100 miles away.
Hasib Hussain’s family thought him spending some time with his relatives in Pakistan might curb the teenager’s rebellious streak and stop him spending his time hanging around street corners in Holbeck, drinking beer with local youths.
His parents thought their plan had worked when Hussain got back, a much calmer figure and with a new found enthusiasm about pursuing his Muslim faith.
Both families are now left asking themselves whether it was their sons’ journeys to their homeland that corrupted them.
Tanweer’s uncle, Bashir Ahmed, has no doubts that it was faceless figures in Pakistan who radicalised his sports-mad nephew.
“He was such a calm, loving normal boy. Extremists must have got their hands on him,” the 65-year-old Leeds businessman said yesterday.
“We all thought he had gone to continue his education. I thought he just wanted to improve his pronunciation.
“It wasn’t him. It must have been forces behind him.”
British intelligence has asked its Pakistani counterparts urgently to trace where the young Britons went, and more crucially who they met, during their study tours.
Officers need to know if the four bombers were ever there at the same time, or attended the same radical training schools.
The Pakistani authorities this week angrily denied accusations from India that terror training camps were once more thriving inside their borders.
Natwar Singh, the Indian Foreign Minister, replied that he had the photographs to prove it.
Western intelligence agencies have also long been concerned about the network of madrassas, the hardline religious schools, which have been blamed for turning out a generation of young jihadis. One institution which has been under recent scrutiny is in the industrial city of Gujranwala, which is just north of Lahore — where Tanweer was heading.
This new generation of training centres are nothing like their predecessors which were run by al-Qaeda in the years before the September 11 attacks on the US and were sited in the inhospitable mountain ranges straddling the Afghan border.
Western volunteers lived rough in the desert with hundreds of other foreign recruits and were taught to handle weapons and explosives, as well as spending hours listening to tape recordings of Osama bin Laden and other zealots.
“Today the camps are more like youth hostels,” one young activist who attended a madrassa in southern Pakistan told The Times.
“Recruits don’t spend hours scrabbling about on outward bound courses. It is more like being in a school room.”
“Organisers don’t want to turn out warriors who can strip down a Kalashnikov rifle blindfolded. They want to shape the mind, not the body.
“They want their recruits to embrace the idea of giving their lives for their cause, and doing nothing more technical than triggering the bomb they carry.”
There are long periods of Koranic study but also what organisers call “the evolution of the jihad”, which teaches how wars are no longer a battle between rival armies.
Heroic accounts of the lives — and deaths — of insurgents in Iraq are told to the class to instruct recruits: “We fight the enemy our way.”
In some cases it is young Britons who have moved from Britain to make a new life for themselves in Pakistan who lecture their fellow citizens, “to make them feel more at ease”.
“These British lecturers know how to give practical instructions like ‘don’t go to well-known radical mosques in the UK as they are under police surveillance. Don’t wander into bookshops which sell violent vidoes and militant literature as they too are being watched’.
“We were told, ‘Continue being an ordinary John’,” the former activist said.
The bombers from the backstreets of Leeds followed their instructions to the letter.
They were always seen in baggy jeans, training shoes, short haircuts and were cleanshaven, even when they turned up at the local mosque for Friday prayers.
Tanweer’s family say they cannot remember him arguing about politics. Hussain’s relatives say there was nothing aggressive in his views about how British Muslims should behave.
Experts say there is little point trying to identify the groups who recruit the young Britons because nowadays they change their names and websites with bewildering frequency.
The Harakat al-Ansar group has had five names in the past two years.
The other practical problems for the security authorities is that there is such an enormous traffic of young Britons travelling to Pakistan to visit family that it is impossible for the police to keep tabs on them, particularly when the vast majority go there for entirely innocent reasons.
There are reports of new training centres springing up around Mansehra in the North West Frontier Province, though it is not known if any British volunteers have pitched up there.
Magnus Ranstorp, director of the Centre for the Study of Terrorism and Political Violence at the University of St Andrews in Scotland said: “Of course there are still training camps.
“I don’t think you can find fully-fledged training camps in Pakistan or even Afghanistan on the same level as we had before.
“But there are many remote areas, many places where the lack of governance can provide excellent training ground. It can be done in underground shelters, abandoned houses. You don’t need large facilities.”
Some Pakistani-based militant groups are reported to still scout for recruits at mosques among Muslim communities in Britain.
Smaller British mosques have their own links with madrassas in the Punjab and other regions of Pakistan though they insist these are genuine schools of Koranic study, not terror training camps.
Well known militant groups, lsuch as Jaish-e-Mohammed, Lashkar-e-Taiba and Harkat ul Mujahideen have operated openly in the past and in some cases with the military’s support, and boasted of their British recruits.
Mohammed Bilal, a Briton who was associated with Jaish-e-Mohammed, was the UK’s first suicide bomber when in Christmas Day 2000 he rammed a vehicle packed with explosives into an Indian military post in Kashmir.
Officially, the Pakistan government — a key ally of Britain and the US in the war on terror — insists they have eradicated the culture of terror camps inside their borders.
The experiences of Shehzad Tanweer and Hasib Hussain tell a different story.
New wave of British terrorists are taught at schools, not in the mountains
HIS family were perplexed when Shehzad Tanweer decided to drop out of his sports science course at Leeds Metropolitan University at the end of last year so he could travel to Pakistan.
He told them that he desperately wanted to join a group of friends from his local mosque on a two-month visit to a religious school near Lahore.
The 22-year-old joked with his parents that he would pick up his education when he came back, adding that it would also give him the chance to visit relatives in his father’s hometown, Faisalabad, which was only 100 miles away.
Hasib Hussain’s family thought him spending some time with his relatives in Pakistan might curb the teenager’s rebellious streak and stop him spending his time hanging around street corners in Holbeck, drinking beer with local youths.
His parents thought their plan had worked when Hussain got back, a much calmer figure and with a new found enthusiasm about pursuing his Muslim faith.
Both families are now left asking themselves whether it was their sons’ journeys to their homeland that corrupted them.
Tanweer’s uncle, Bashir Ahmed, has no doubts that it was faceless figures in Pakistan who radicalised his sports-mad nephew.
“He was such a calm, loving normal boy. Extremists must have got their hands on him,” the 65-year-old Leeds businessman said yesterday.
“We all thought he had gone to continue his education. I thought he just wanted to improve his pronunciation.
“It wasn’t him. It must have been forces behind him.”
British intelligence has asked its Pakistani counterparts urgently to trace where the young Britons went, and more crucially who they met, during their study tours.
Officers need to know if the four bombers were ever there at the same time, or attended the same radical training schools.
The Pakistani authorities this week angrily denied accusations from India that terror training camps were once more thriving inside their borders.
Natwar Singh, the Indian Foreign Minister, replied that he had the photographs to prove it.
Western intelligence agencies have also long been concerned about the network of madrassas, the hardline religious schools, which have been blamed for turning out a generation of young jihadis. One institution which has been under recent scrutiny is in the industrial city of Gujranwala, which is just north of Lahore — where Tanweer was heading.
This new generation of training centres are nothing like their predecessors which were run by al-Qaeda in the years before the September 11 attacks on the US and were sited in the inhospitable mountain ranges straddling the Afghan border.
Western volunteers lived rough in the desert with hundreds of other foreign recruits and were taught to handle weapons and explosives, as well as spending hours listening to tape recordings of Osama bin Laden and other zealots.
“Today the camps are more like youth hostels,” one young activist who attended a madrassa in southern Pakistan told The Times.
“Recruits don’t spend hours scrabbling about on outward bound courses. It is more like being in a school room.”
“Organisers don’t want to turn out warriors who can strip down a Kalashnikov rifle blindfolded. They want to shape the mind, not the body.
“They want their recruits to embrace the idea of giving their lives for their cause, and doing nothing more technical than triggering the bomb they carry.”
There are long periods of Koranic study but also what organisers call “the evolution of the jihad”, which teaches how wars are no longer a battle between rival armies.
Heroic accounts of the lives — and deaths — of insurgents in Iraq are told to the class to instruct recruits: “We fight the enemy our way.”
In some cases it is young Britons who have moved from Britain to make a new life for themselves in Pakistan who lecture their fellow citizens, “to make them feel more at ease”.
“These British lecturers know how to give practical instructions like ‘don’t go to well-known radical mosques in the UK as they are under police surveillance. Don’t wander into bookshops which sell violent vidoes and militant literature as they too are being watched’.
“We were told, ‘Continue being an ordinary John’,” the former activist said.
The bombers from the backstreets of Leeds followed their instructions to the letter.
They were always seen in baggy jeans, training shoes, short haircuts and were cleanshaven, even when they turned up at the local mosque for Friday prayers.
Tanweer’s family say they cannot remember him arguing about politics. Hussain’s relatives say there was nothing aggressive in his views about how British Muslims should behave.
Experts say there is little point trying to identify the groups who recruit the young Britons because nowadays they change their names and websites with bewildering frequency.
The Harakat al-Ansar group has had five names in the past two years.
The other practical problems for the security authorities is that there is such an enormous traffic of young Britons travelling to Pakistan to visit family that it is impossible for the police to keep tabs on them, particularly when the vast majority go there for entirely innocent reasons.
There are reports of new training centres springing up around Mansehra in the North West Frontier Province, though it is not known if any British volunteers have pitched up there.
Magnus Ranstorp, director of the Centre for the Study of Terrorism and Political Violence at the University of St Andrews in Scotland said: “Of course there are still training camps.
“I don’t think you can find fully-fledged training camps in Pakistan or even Afghanistan on the same level as we had before.
“But there are many remote areas, many places where the lack of governance can provide excellent training ground. It can be done in underground shelters, abandoned houses. You don’t need large facilities.”
Some Pakistani-based militant groups are reported to still scout for recruits at mosques among Muslim communities in Britain.
Smaller British mosques have their own links with madrassas in the Punjab and other regions of Pakistan though they insist these are genuine schools of Koranic study, not terror training camps.
Well known militant groups, lsuch as Jaish-e-Mohammed, Lashkar-e-Taiba and Harkat ul Mujahideen have operated openly in the past and in some cases with the military’s support, and boasted of their British recruits.
Mohammed Bilal, a Briton who was associated with Jaish-e-Mohammed, was the UK’s first suicide bomber when in Christmas Day 2000 he rammed a vehicle packed with explosives into an Indian military post in Kashmir.
Officially, the Pakistan government — a key ally of Britain and the US in the war on terror — insists they have eradicated the culture of terror camps inside their borders.
The experiences of Shehzad Tanweer and Hasib Hussain tell a different story.
#30 Posted by ahmedmadani on July 16, 2005 10:58:25 am
Re: # 15 Mr Arjun M ..you seems extremely happy due this English terror problem.
You enjoy miseries. You are so happy that this will tarnish good name of pakistan and paksistani people. You should have sad for loss of life but you are having time of your life. Pakistanis are very sad ok. These are ENGLISH not pakistanise so is English problem ot Pakistani problem.
You are recist. The English court majistrate has declared ``Paki`` as detogatory word and person uttering such bad stuff can be prosecuted in England.
For your knowledge refer us as ``Pakistanies `` not pakis as you refer all time. Also refer as Pakistan or Islamic republics of Pakistan and not as ``Pakiland``.
I do not think you are going follow my suggestion.
Anyway you have time of life so please enjoy all time at others miseries.
I never refer Indoa/Bharat as Land of Kafirs or as some refer to India as bunch of chicken headed Kufrstan as we as decent, modest and cultured.
You enjoy miseries. You are so happy that this will tarnish good name of pakistan and paksistani people. You should have sad for loss of life but you are having time of your life. Pakistanis are very sad ok. These are ENGLISH not pakistanise so is English problem ot Pakistani problem.
You are recist. The English court majistrate has declared ``Paki`` as detogatory word and person uttering such bad stuff can be prosecuted in England.
For your knowledge refer us as ``Pakistanies `` not pakis as you refer all time. Also refer as Pakistan or Islamic republics of Pakistan and not as ``Pakiland``.
I do not think you are going follow my suggestion.
Anyway you have time of life so please enjoy all time at others miseries.
I never refer Indoa/Bharat as Land of Kafirs or as some refer to India as bunch of chicken headed Kufrstan as we as decent, modest and cultured.
#14 Posted by sifzal on July 14, 2005 5:40:15 am
Dear All
I saw the news revealing the tragedy of London, it made me sad and dismayed…but then I have seen things even more deplorable, things that are even worse …ignorance of mass in the west and even in the developing countries under the influence of foreign media which most of the time is biased, racist …or let me think are they ignorant themselves…
Reading #13 one can see in it a scavenger philosophy... worst thing is that the person does not know him/herself…
A Wiseman said, “One can never benefit from mingling up with the low and evil mentality folks…just as no matter how many grapes you put on a thorny bush, they can only get destroyed but would not bring fruit to the thorns…
What racism is, I only came to know when I started living with the “professionals” of the developed nations. When bombs strikes in the west, its terrorism because people not wearing a uniform do it. Kashmir, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Iraq suffers hundreds of thousands death by hundred of thousands uniform people…no mourning, no photo just a normal thing so move on…
I only wish I could tell the misguided young ones…that taking lives of innocents or for that matter of your own is just not allowed in Islam – its an unforgivable sin…so I turned to their souls and said the same, they responded…”we know and we are sorry, but we had to do it to make them realize how is it to live in pain and fear as they have made many nations to live with...” I responded, “it still not justify your act”…and they whispered away saying…”we did what we thought was right and to make them think…but it doesn’t matter to us anymore, for now we have done our deeds … and finished with the earthly life…”
I saw the news revealing the tragedy of London, it made me sad and dismayed…but then I have seen things even more deplorable, things that are even worse …ignorance of mass in the west and even in the developing countries under the influence of foreign media which most of the time is biased, racist …or let me think are they ignorant themselves…
Reading #13 one can see in it a scavenger philosophy... worst thing is that the person does not know him/herself…
A Wiseman said, “One can never benefit from mingling up with the low and evil mentality folks…just as no matter how many grapes you put on a thorny bush, they can only get destroyed but would not bring fruit to the thorns…
What racism is, I only came to know when I started living with the “professionals” of the developed nations. When bombs strikes in the west, its terrorism because people not wearing a uniform do it. Kashmir, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Iraq suffers hundreds of thousands death by hundred of thousands uniform people…no mourning, no photo just a normal thing so move on…
I only wish I could tell the misguided young ones…that taking lives of innocents or for that matter of your own is just not allowed in Islam – its an unforgivable sin…so I turned to their souls and said the same, they responded…”we know and we are sorry, but we had to do it to make them realize how is it to live in pain and fear as they have made many nations to live with...” I responded, “it still not justify your act”…and they whispered away saying…”we did what we thought was right and to make them think…but it doesn’t matter to us anymore, for now we have done our deeds … and finished with the earthly life…”
#13 Posted by cayenne on July 14, 2005 12:59:36 am
Latest on the `war on terror`.The british PM says `extremists will be deported`.What if they`re born in britain but of pak descent ?.If i were pak, and in the UK, i would start packing.Every pak can be deemed to be a terrorist.We indians can offer to help you out by buying your properties at 50 pence on the pound.Better than nothing!!!.I try.
#11 Posted by midihash on July 14, 2005 12:20:33 am
#7 by teshah
``No honourable woman would have behaved like her.``
absolutely right. i suppose according to you an `honourable` woman, after being brutally gang-raped, would have either committed suicide or would have shut up and put up.
i don`t know if you are a man or woman, either way i can safely say that you have no fecking clue what honour or being honourable means. in part it means to not stay quiet in the face of injustice, whether it`s perpetrated against others or against yourself.
``No honourable woman would have behaved like her.``
absolutely right. i suppose according to you an `honourable` woman, after being brutally gang-raped, would have either committed suicide or would have shut up and put up.
i don`t know if you are a man or woman, either way i can safely say that you have no fecking clue what honour or being honourable means. in part it means to not stay quiet in the face of injustice, whether it`s perpetrated against others or against yourself.
#29 Posted by teshah on July 15, 2005 5:03:34 pm
Re: # 11
nidihash
“i don`t know if you are a man or woman, either way i can safely say that you have no fecking clue what honour or being honourable means. in part it means to not stay quiet in the face of injustice, whether it`s perpetrated against others or against yourself.”
I am sorry dear nidhiash (I don’t know your sex either) that you got personal and serious about an episode which in my view was more comic in nature than tragic. It was, as the story goes, first a mullah, then NGOs and finally the trial Session Court, which blew the matter out of proportion. Naturally the media also stepped in and made the best use of it adding fuel to the fire.
Now coming to the question what I meant by ‘fecking honour’ with reference to the Mai’s rape episode.
You know it was the alleged violation of ‘honour’ of a Mastoi woman which necessitated the holding of village Punchayat (Peoples’ Court). The Mai and her family seemed to be in a compromising situation and therefore wanted to apologize for the misconduct of her brother. Now there are two versions about what happened afterwards. May’s supporters say, the panchayat decided that as a matter of justice, Mai should be raped by Mastoi’s to avenge violation of their ‘honour’ violated by her brother. But according to the other party the Mai was not raped but married (nikahfied) to the brother of the Mastoi woman who was ‘dishonoured’ by Mai’s brother. No independent inquiry having been held in the matter there are as many stories as many mouths. But as the courts inquiry goes the proceedings and judgment of the Multan High Court still holds the ground which did not give any credence to the evidence in support of the accusation of rape of Mai. Do you think dear every body should sit in judgment over a case when one knows nothing even about the bare facts of the case? As you go, you want to dishonour Mai by insisting that she was raped when the court says there was no evidence to that effect.
Now what a display of ‘fecking honour’ was made in Mirwala when allegedly Mai was being dragged for ‘rape’ before the very eyes of her biraadari including her father and her young brother in compliance with the judgement of the Panchayat. I cannot imagine such a scene even in ‘that bazaar’. I can’t believe that people even of the lowest caste can be so devoid of any sense of ‘fecking honour’ that they allow such a thing to happen without any demur. In fact no body stood up as there was perhaps no ground for standing up and it was only the suo moto action taken by the trial court after a number of days that such a halla gulla was raised by NGOs, etc., etc.
In fact I believe sex as such is not a matter falling in the domain of ethics or morals. It is purely a matter of culture. In Shariah if one accuses somebody of ‘Zina’ (irregular sex with a free person, other than one’s own slave) he is obliged to bring forth four valid eye witnesses of the crime otherwise he himself is liable to be penalized severely. As regards rape, you would have learnt about a ‘Fatwa’ issued recently by Deoband in case of a rape of a woman by her father-in-law in India. They held that in consequence of her alleged rape the woman has automatically become the wife of her father-in-law. In fact this is the adoption of a Judaistic law which makes the rapist accept the victim as his wife apparently to mitigate her dishonour. Now listen what the Wiseman of China, the great Confucius, says about rape. He advises that if you feel the rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy it. I would personally act upon his advice if ever I were subjected to rape albeit by the opposite sex. I envy Mukhtaran Mai that she is lucky to have the best of the two, nay , rather three worlds and is so happy. Only the NGOs seem now to be feeling chillies in their hinds out of jealousy perhaps.
nidihash
“i don`t know if you are a man or woman, either way i can safely say that you have no fecking clue what honour or being honourable means. in part it means to not stay quiet in the face of injustice, whether it`s perpetrated against others or against yourself.”
I am sorry dear nidhiash (I don’t know your sex either) that you got personal and serious about an episode which in my view was more comic in nature than tragic. It was, as the story goes, first a mullah, then NGOs and finally the trial Session Court, which blew the matter out of proportion. Naturally the media also stepped in and made the best use of it adding fuel to the fire.
Now coming to the question what I meant by ‘fecking honour’ with reference to the Mai’s rape episode.
You know it was the alleged violation of ‘honour’ of a Mastoi woman which necessitated the holding of village Punchayat (Peoples’ Court). The Mai and her family seemed to be in a compromising situation and therefore wanted to apologize for the misconduct of her brother. Now there are two versions about what happened afterwards. May’s supporters say, the panchayat decided that as a matter of justice, Mai should be raped by Mastoi’s to avenge violation of their ‘honour’ violated by her brother. But according to the other party the Mai was not raped but married (nikahfied) to the brother of the Mastoi woman who was ‘dishonoured’ by Mai’s brother. No independent inquiry having been held in the matter there are as many stories as many mouths. But as the courts inquiry goes the proceedings and judgment of the Multan High Court still holds the ground which did not give any credence to the evidence in support of the accusation of rape of Mai. Do you think dear every body should sit in judgment over a case when one knows nothing even about the bare facts of the case? As you go, you want to dishonour Mai by insisting that she was raped when the court says there was no evidence to that effect.
Now what a display of ‘fecking honour’ was made in Mirwala when allegedly Mai was being dragged for ‘rape’ before the very eyes of her biraadari including her father and her young brother in compliance with the judgement of the Panchayat. I cannot imagine such a scene even in ‘that bazaar’. I can’t believe that people even of the lowest caste can be so devoid of any sense of ‘fecking honour’ that they allow such a thing to happen without any demur. In fact no body stood up as there was perhaps no ground for standing up and it was only the suo moto action taken by the trial court after a number of days that such a halla gulla was raised by NGOs, etc., etc.
In fact I believe sex as such is not a matter falling in the domain of ethics or morals. It is purely a matter of culture. In Shariah if one accuses somebody of ‘Zina’ (irregular sex with a free person, other than one’s own slave) he is obliged to bring forth four valid eye witnesses of the crime otherwise he himself is liable to be penalized severely. As regards rape, you would have learnt about a ‘Fatwa’ issued recently by Deoband in case of a rape of a woman by her father-in-law in India. They held that in consequence of her alleged rape the woman has automatically become the wife of her father-in-law. In fact this is the adoption of a Judaistic law which makes the rapist accept the victim as his wife apparently to mitigate her dishonour. Now listen what the Wiseman of China, the great Confucius, says about rape. He advises that if you feel the rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy it. I would personally act upon his advice if ever I were subjected to rape albeit by the opposite sex. I envy Mukhtaran Mai that she is lucky to have the best of the two, nay , rather three worlds and is so happy. Only the NGOs seem now to be feeling chillies in their hinds out of jealousy perhaps.
#10 Posted by Ameena on July 13, 2005 9:49:19 pm
It is clear that only Pakistanis are to be blamed in such a context just like the Saudis. Very easy to blame economic factors that lead to men becoming fanatics but hasn`t our government policies of socalled Islamization to be blamed equally?
#9 Posted by arjun_m on July 13, 2005 9:48:00 pm
nauman: still in denial?
Pakistan wakes up to the hatred within
(Filed: 14/07/2005)
Ahmed Rashid reports on the link between Lahore and Leeds that has flourished over two generations but may now have been hijacked by militant Islamic fundamentalists
For the past few days at dinner parties, bazaars and newspaper offices in Lahore there has only been one topic of conversation, the fear and expectancy that the London bombers would turn out to be Pakistani.
Most were convinced that that would be the case and when the truth came out they were immediately on their mobiles, spreading the news repeating: ``What did I tell you, I told you so, this will really be the last straw.``
Many were depressed at the thought of being dubbed a nation that could export a handful of terrorists along with T-shirts, Sufi music and mangoes.
Until Tuesday the fear of a Right-wing backlash against Pakistanis living in Britain had also dominated the headlines. That is because Pakistanis are deeply sensitive about their own, even though after 58 years they still cannot agree on the nature of their nation - Islamic fundamentalist or democratic.
Those who have lived in Bradford and Leeds for two generations still come home to marry, party, holiday and celebrate religious festivals such as Eid, or Ramadan, the month of fasting.
Flights to and from London are packed in the summer.
Youngsters in sneakers, the latest jeans and speaking English in broad Yorkshire accents can be heard in Lahore`s shopping malls during any holiday period.
However more conservative parents in Yorkshire take leave of absence for their teenage sons from their British schools and send them home to study for a couple of terms. They either join madrassas - Islamic schools - or secular schools, learning Urdu, the Koran and making friends.
Those boys who join madrassa boarding schools are often indoctrinated with fundamentalist views and return home to Yorkshire changed people - urging their sisters to cover their heads and their friends to pray regularly.
In the winter of 2002 Maulana Akram Awan, a fundamentalist religious leader and politician from Chakwal in central Punjab, set up camp outside Islamabad with thousands of followers. He threatened to march on the capital to force the military regime to enforce Islamic law.
Among those camping out in the fields with him were dozens of madrassa students from Yorkshire. The elite`s fear of a backlash against British Pakistanis is heightened by the fact that London is their second home, the favourite holiday destination to escape the summer heat, shop till they drop and still the best place to send their children to university. Now, during the summer sales, a visiting Pakistani can hardly walk down a street in Knightsbridge or Kensington without bumping into a Pakistani he knows from home.
On Tuesday night the first thought for many of them was how suspiciously they would be viewed when they showed their passports at Heathrow. But when they sit down to reflect as more emerges about the London bombers, they are likely to become even more depressed.
It is already clear that one or two of the bombers visited Pakistan recently, possibly to train with an extremist group.
For the past two decades a small number of militants have killed and maimed their fellow citizens in the name of Islam, various Islamic sects or self-created concepts of male honour. These killing fields in the name of Islam, abhorred by the majority of their fellow citizens, were then exported abroad where Pakistani militant groups supported fellow extremists in Kashmir, Afghanistan, Central Asia, Chechnya and the former Yugoslavia.
Pakistani extremists have been closely linked to the army which saw in them a cheap and non-attributable opportunity to keep India at bay, maintain the country`s Islamic influence abroad and undermine any chance of civilian democracy at home.
This ``military-mullah`` alliance is widely assumed to have been born in 1977 after the army coup that bought General Zia Ul Haq to power. However in a new book called Pakistan - between Mosque and Military, scholar-diplomat Hussain Haqqani shows how the alliance goes back as far as 1951.
Many Pakistanis hoped that September 11 2001 would give the army a chance to change its disastrous policies and end its alliance with the mullahs.
General Pervez Musharraf`s military regime could make peace with Afghanistan and India, crack down hard on militant groups and turn its back on extremism.
Gen Musharraf promised a policy of enlightened moderation but little has been done. Thousands of religious schools still spew out hate against non-Muslims and leaders of militant groups still wander the country giving sermons.
Gen Musharraf has squandered the lavish aid and support given to him by the US and Britain after September 11. Extremism continues to flourish and democracy is further away than ever.
This month the widely circulated magazine Herald reports that a dozen training camps for militants, which closed down after September 11, were revived in May with official blessing.
Last month several Pakistani-Americans arrested on terrorism charges in California, admitted to training in such camps. The London bombers were probably in touch with a local Pakistani group rather than al-Qa`eda.
Pakistanis are fed up with being in the eye of the storm and just want to lead a normal life. They want to see an end to violence at home and a bad image abroad. When that will happen is anybody`s guess.
Pakistan wakes up to the hatred within
(Filed: 14/07/2005)
Ahmed Rashid reports on the link between Lahore and Leeds that has flourished over two generations but may now have been hijacked by militant Islamic fundamentalists
For the past few days at dinner parties, bazaars and newspaper offices in Lahore there has only been one topic of conversation, the fear and expectancy that the London bombers would turn out to be Pakistani.
Most were convinced that that would be the case and when the truth came out they were immediately on their mobiles, spreading the news repeating: ``What did I tell you, I told you so, this will really be the last straw.``
Many were depressed at the thought of being dubbed a nation that could export a handful of terrorists along with T-shirts, Sufi music and mangoes.
Until Tuesday the fear of a Right-wing backlash against Pakistanis living in Britain had also dominated the headlines. That is because Pakistanis are deeply sensitive about their own, even though after 58 years they still cannot agree on the nature of their nation - Islamic fundamentalist or democratic.
Those who have lived in Bradford and Leeds for two generations still come home to marry, party, holiday and celebrate religious festivals such as Eid, or Ramadan, the month of fasting.
Flights to and from London are packed in the summer.
Youngsters in sneakers, the latest jeans and speaking English in broad Yorkshire accents can be heard in Lahore`s shopping malls during any holiday period.
However more conservative parents in Yorkshire take leave of absence for their teenage sons from their British schools and send them home to study for a couple of terms. They either join madrassas - Islamic schools - or secular schools, learning Urdu, the Koran and making friends.
Those boys who join madrassa boarding schools are often indoctrinated with fundamentalist views and return home to Yorkshire changed people - urging their sisters to cover their heads and their friends to pray regularly.
In the winter of 2002 Maulana Akram Awan, a fundamentalist religious leader and politician from Chakwal in central Punjab, set up camp outside Islamabad with thousands of followers. He threatened to march on the capital to force the military regime to enforce Islamic law.
Among those camping out in the fields with him were dozens of madrassa students from Yorkshire. The elite`s fear of a backlash against British Pakistanis is heightened by the fact that London is their second home, the favourite holiday destination to escape the summer heat, shop till they drop and still the best place to send their children to university. Now, during the summer sales, a visiting Pakistani can hardly walk down a street in Knightsbridge or Kensington without bumping into a Pakistani he knows from home.
On Tuesday night the first thought for many of them was how suspiciously they would be viewed when they showed their passports at Heathrow. But when they sit down to reflect as more emerges about the London bombers, they are likely to become even more depressed.
It is already clear that one or two of the bombers visited Pakistan recently, possibly to train with an extremist group.
For the past two decades a small number of militants have killed and maimed their fellow citizens in the name of Islam, various Islamic sects or self-created concepts of male honour. These killing fields in the name of Islam, abhorred by the majority of their fellow citizens, were then exported abroad where Pakistani militant groups supported fellow extremists in Kashmir, Afghanistan, Central Asia, Chechnya and the former Yugoslavia.
Pakistani extremists have been closely linked to the army which saw in them a cheap and non-attributable opportunity to keep India at bay, maintain the country`s Islamic influence abroad and undermine any chance of civilian democracy at home.
This ``military-mullah`` alliance is widely assumed to have been born in 1977 after the army coup that bought General Zia Ul Haq to power. However in a new book called Pakistan - between Mosque and Military, scholar-diplomat Hussain Haqqani shows how the alliance goes back as far as 1951.
Many Pakistanis hoped that September 11 2001 would give the army a chance to change its disastrous policies and end its alliance with the mullahs.
General Pervez Musharraf`s military regime could make peace with Afghanistan and India, crack down hard on militant groups and turn its back on extremism.
Gen Musharraf promised a policy of enlightened moderation but little has been done. Thousands of religious schools still spew out hate against non-Muslims and leaders of militant groups still wander the country giving sermons.
Gen Musharraf has squandered the lavish aid and support given to him by the US and Britain after September 11. Extremism continues to flourish and democracy is further away than ever.
This month the widely circulated magazine Herald reports that a dozen training camps for militants, which closed down after September 11, were revived in May with official blessing.
Last month several Pakistani-Americans arrested on terrorism charges in California, admitted to training in such camps. The London bombers were probably in touch with a local Pakistani group rather than al-Qa`eda.
Pakistanis are fed up with being in the eye of the storm and just want to lead a normal life. They want to see an end to violence at home and a bad image abroad. When that will happen is anybody`s guess.
#8 Posted by bbabu on July 13, 2005 8:25:02 pm
nauman9 #5
Cayenne and bbabu:
`` The suspected bombers are Britons who killed their own people for reasons, unclear at the moment. They are not Pakistanis. Period.
A “particular descent” does not make one prone to a particular type of criminal activity. I do not believe that Pakistani people have “bomber genes” in them, which can be passed on to their successive generations. ``
For the record I do not think the ancestry decides criminal activity. Culture might !!!
Let us not pretend there is no connection between conservative nature of some British Pakistani immigrants, militancy of some Islamic clerics, their visits to Pakistan and their suicide bombings.
The simplest question to ask why should these individuals conduct a suicide bombing. They could placed the bombs anywhere in the subway or on any crowded bus and slipped out. Yeah they could be caught. But the bombs would have killed their targets. By committing suicide who are they protecting. Let me guess the mastermind of the plot wants to protect some murderous thug hiding in Pakistan. I am not referring to Osama Bin Laden.
`` If your argument is true then it would be fair to say that “Indians are tarnishing the image of India” as shown by two brothers of Indian descent; Satish and Deepak Kalpoe by their probable involvement in the murder/disappearance of Natalee Holloway in Aruba.``
Satish and Deepak Kalpoe are Indians probably by genes. They are citizens of Surinam. They are culturally quite alien to contemporary Indian society. There is no record of them visiting India. Indians in Surinam are too poor to afford a plane ticket to India. Plus they might not have any relatives in India.
Cayenne and bbabu:
`` The suspected bombers are Britons who killed their own people for reasons, unclear at the moment. They are not Pakistanis. Period.
A “particular descent” does not make one prone to a particular type of criminal activity. I do not believe that Pakistani people have “bomber genes” in them, which can be passed on to their successive generations. ``
For the record I do not think the ancestry decides criminal activity. Culture might !!!
Let us not pretend there is no connection between conservative nature of some British Pakistani immigrants, militancy of some Islamic clerics, their visits to Pakistan and their suicide bombings.
The simplest question to ask why should these individuals conduct a suicide bombing. They could placed the bombs anywhere in the subway or on any crowded bus and slipped out. Yeah they could be caught. But the bombs would have killed their targets. By committing suicide who are they protecting. Let me guess the mastermind of the plot wants to protect some murderous thug hiding in Pakistan. I am not referring to Osama Bin Laden.
`` If your argument is true then it would be fair to say that “Indians are tarnishing the image of India” as shown by two brothers of Indian descent; Satish and Deepak Kalpoe by their probable involvement in the murder/disappearance of Natalee Holloway in Aruba.``
Satish and Deepak Kalpoe are Indians probably by genes. They are citizens of Surinam. They are culturally quite alien to contemporary Indian society. There is no record of them visiting India. Indians in Surinam are too poor to afford a plane ticket to India. Plus they might not have any relatives in India.
#7 Posted by teshah on July 13, 2005 7:37:30 pm
Xari
A presumptuous harangue, isn`t it? There are contradicting stories about the rape of my, mostly hearsay. The High Court says there was no evidence of rape of Mai. It nevertheless sentenced one accused who confessed that he had sex with Mai but not as a rapist but as her husband. Mai denied having honourable sex as a wife as terming it as rape seemed more preferable and profitable to her. No honourable woman would have behaved like her. As for the rulers less said the better. They all got their faces blackened by bestowing extraordinary favoures on the low-caste Mai who later on got into the hands of NGOs, all with their selfish agendas. Thanks to my, the rulers, the judicial system, the NGOs all stand exposed now. Only the Mai gets rich and famous, proving the truth of the saving of a Punjabi sage-cum-poet Mian Mohammad Bakhsh:
Neechaan di ashnai kolon feiz kisse nah paaya
kikar te angoor charhaya te har guchha zakhmaya
A presumptuous harangue, isn`t it? There are contradicting stories about the rape of my, mostly hearsay. The High Court says there was no evidence of rape of Mai. It nevertheless sentenced one accused who confessed that he had sex with Mai but not as a rapist but as her husband. Mai denied having honourable sex as a wife as terming it as rape seemed more preferable and profitable to her. No honourable woman would have behaved like her. As for the rulers less said the better. They all got their faces blackened by bestowing extraordinary favoures on the low-caste Mai who later on got into the hands of NGOs, all with their selfish agendas. Thanks to my, the rulers, the judicial system, the NGOs all stand exposed now. Only the Mai gets rich and famous, proving the truth of the saving of a Punjabi sage-cum-poet Mian Mohammad Bakhsh:
Neechaan di ashnai kolon feiz kisse nah paaya
kikar te angoor charhaya te har guchha zakhmaya
#6 Posted by arjun_m on July 13, 2005 7:13:00 pm
#5 by nauman9 on July 13, 2005 6:34pm PT
I do not believe that Pakistani people have “bomber genes” in them, which can be passed on to their successive generations.
One of the bombers was a wild teen...A trip to Pakiland and hey presto...he becomes a suicide bomber....I`m sure there`s no connection....
If your argument is true then it would be fair to say
You could say it and your paki brethren would buy it....but the rest of the world doesn`t see it that way...unfortunately(for you), the world agrees what what the Indians think about a majority of pakis being pro-jihadi if not jihadi...and how Pakiland is a breeding ground for terrorism..
I do not believe that Pakistani people have “bomber genes” in them, which can be passed on to their successive generations.
One of the bombers was a wild teen...A trip to Pakiland and hey presto...he becomes a suicide bomber....I`m sure there`s no connection....
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1693289,00.html
The uncle of Shehzad Tanweer anxiously insists that his nephew must have fallen under the influence of radical Muslims when he went to Pakistan last year.
If your argument is true then it would be fair to say
You could say it and your paki brethren would buy it....but the rest of the world doesn`t see it that way...unfortunately(for you), the world agrees what what the Indians think about a majority of pakis being pro-jihadi if not jihadi...and how Pakiland is a breeding ground for terrorism..
#5 Posted by nauman9 on July 13, 2005 6:34:42 pm
Ref # 2:[Pakistanis tarnish the name of pakistan!!.]
Ref # 3:[Those four Pakistanis in Britain are going to do wonders to Pakistan`s image.]
Cayenne and bbabu:
The suspected bombers are Britons who killed their own people for reasons, unclear at the moment. They are not Pakistanis. Period.
A “particular descent” does not make one prone to a particular type of criminal activity. I do not believe that Pakistani people have “bomber genes” in them, which can be passed on to their successive generations.
If your argument is true then it would be fair to say that “Indians are tarnishing the image of India” as shown by two brothers of Indian descent; Satish and Deepak Kalpoe by their probable involvement in the murder/disappearance of Natalee Holloway in Aruba.
Ref # 3:[Those four Pakistanis in Britain are going to do wonders to Pakistan`s image.]
Cayenne and bbabu:
The suspected bombers are Britons who killed their own people for reasons, unclear at the moment. They are not Pakistanis. Period.
A “particular descent” does not make one prone to a particular type of criminal activity. I do not believe that Pakistani people have “bomber genes” in them, which can be passed on to their successive generations.
If your argument is true then it would be fair to say that “Indians are tarnishing the image of India” as shown by two brothers of Indian descent; Satish and Deepak Kalpoe by their probable involvement in the murder/disappearance of Natalee Holloway in Aruba.
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