Project Mumbai Makeover: Casualties of Development

``Commie bashing is very easy. It is also an old game. I myself have indulged in it often on this very site. But it has been 15 years since India rejected socialism and accepted free market. Isn`t it about time we stopped using socialists and communists as scapegoats? ``

India has only rejected the extreme version of socialism. India is still pretty much a socialist state with a closed economy which is by and large controlled by the polity and the bureaucracy.. Majority of the people of India will continue to be impoverished in varius degrees as long as this is the case.

Addendum to #96

Most of the NGO crowd are from the educated and elite sections of society or scions of prominent politicians who obviously know/smell a good thing when they see it...


The above refers to the people who run these NGO`s and not the who work in them, namely , staff.The staff are the lucky ones.They get crumbs for every cheek they turn.or, they get fired.What are they gonna do?.

Re: # 94
Laudable, but not possible in India.The poor have been spoilt.They have become accustomed to handouts and craftily prefer to work for cash to support their extraneous needs and hobbies.They get rations from the govt. which they sell to petty traders in their locality.The govt. can construct tenements, but they prefer to sublet them and live on embankments and encroach free standing land.

There is a whole cadre of unscrupulous NGO`s who in cahouts with the local politicians of a particular area , have made a fine art of siphoning off funds meant for the poor for personal uses.Most of the NGO crowd are from the educated and elite sections of society or scions of prominent politicians who obviously know/smell a good thing when they see it.I know all this from one of my relatives who interred for a certain overseas entity during his college days, which disburses, even now, large sums of US dollars for HIV/AIDS work in India through NGO`s and other quasi-governmental agencies.

The `poor` are big business in India.That`s why they `stay` poor.Don`t blame the hapless indian bureaucrat.Blame him/her only if he/she is in cahoots with the elite/educated NGO crowd or the politicians.It is the middle class that always bears the brunt.

#87 by JagdeeshGodbole

``But it has been 15 years since India rejected socialism and accepted free market. Isn`t it about time we stopped using socialists and communists as scapegoats?``

socialism and communism is still a major factor in politics and governance. NDA itself had Samata party and UPA has commies/socialists supporting it.
Then there are Maoists/Naxalites.

I would like to make it clear that by liberalising its economy, india didn`t do a favor to anyone. We had reached a point that it was the only recourse available. opening up the economy and diving into free markets are not going to bring immediate prosperity to all. THere are various other factors you have to create so that the investors don`t feel threatened, the innovators don`t feel strangulated, the buyers don`t have to worry about delays, the red tape is minimised, kletocracy is replaced by functioning bureaucracy.....
In 1990`s south east asia along with some latin countries have already burnt their fingers thinking that all they need to do is open up the country for others to invest.
A country has to tread cautiously but thats the only path, unless you want to be left out of the process.

89-Kunal,

You dont ``help poor people`` - all people (including poor people) will help themselves
if given the opportunities. The problem is that the Govt by its very nature - *helps*
only those who have lobbying power. The really poor do not have the lobbying
power, so resources tend to be hoarded and abused by a few (like we see with
unions, rich farmers etc). The market system is much more equitable - because
even the poor are a market, they have consumption needs, and the private sector
will meet their needs more effectively than a corrupt govt.

The steps I have proposed - will release huge amounts of hidden/hoarded property
into the market. More houses will be available for renting, driving down prices.
Slum spaces which are now totally underutilized will be better utilized - and
will lead to more jobs, greater prosperity for everyone.
Developing a good transport system - will allow even the poorest of the poor to
travel to prime job places in mumbai from surrounding places where land is cheaper
and will not force them to stay in slums.

Re: # 92

Considering how many `learned` ones i come across here, including yerself, i take it as an honor!!.

Re: # 91

Cayenne:
//.I don`t wanna come across as cruel//

don`t you worry cayenne. you just ALWYAS come across as pure, unadulterated idiot!

President Kalam reveals his recipe for success
Wednesday, 13 July , 2005, 22:17

Kolkata: ``Sweat, sweat, sweat,`` President APJ Abdul Kalam said on Wednesday, spelling out his recipe for success.

The president was replying to a query from a student of the Scottish Church Collegiate school here, who wanted to know the secret of his success.

Taking part in his trademark interactive session with students of the school at the concluding function of its 175th anniversary celebrations, Kalam touched on a wide range of subjects, including astronomy, India`s achievements in science, the need for moral education as also the scourge of corruption.

``This nation is haunted by corruption, of power and money. Now, the time has come when only the youth can change the system,`` the president said, and dictated an oath to the students that exhorted them to strive to create a corruption-free society.

http://sify.com/news/othernews/fullstory.php?id=13895342

If a fisherman`s son from remote fishing village in an island off the eastern mainland gets it,why don`t our `poor`?.It`s easier delivering Coca-Cola bottles than working in a field under the hot sun.It`s easier to just spread one`s legs and get impregnated than taking the time or spending a buck for a rubber.And, they wonder why they have `less` and are at the mercy of the haves.I don`t wanna come across as cruel.All i`m saying is when will the poor in India take responsibility for themselves??.

Re: # 89

And, how would that be helpful to poor folks again?

Godbole wrote:
``Now how about focusing on how to provide these poor people with a housing solution they can afford?``

Here is a beginning:
- Get the Govt to stop interfering by removing all rent-control
- sell all mill land to the highest bidder - with freedom to do what they want with it
- privatize bus/transport service
- govt to focus on only establishing infrastructure - roads/rail/power to areas within
and outside of mumbai
- reduce property taxes and reduce paperwork - so that all property can be easily
sold and brought - thus increasing turnover of property
- standardized rent contracts and give owners the ability to throw out renters at the
end of the contract.

Re: # 87
On second thoughts, I take back my above post. To expect people to focus on actual solutions on chowk instead of whining and pointing fingers is useless. As a long time chowki, I should know ;)

Dear mohar,
Where the hell do you see me even implying that `` keep poor in filth and get ``services`` from them`` anywhere in my post? My reply was specifically to trans warrior who seems to think that poor people who live in the slum are ``burden`` and they should ``either pay for the loss or get out and help their own state, that will help their own state.``. I merely pointed out that they are already paying - in more ways than one.

I am in no way supporting encroachments on public land - by anyone. However, people like Trans Warrior fail to differentiate between slums and slum dwellers. Beautifying mumbai etc is all fine and dandy. Get rid of all the slums if you can. However, don`t equate slums with people who live in slums. They don`t live in filth and squalor because they enjoy it. And they are not free-loaders. They have to work as much hard to earn a living as you. They have as much right to live with dignity as any other citizens of Mumbai.

There is another angle of this issue. Where will these people go once you get rid of the slums? Does mumbai have any affordable housing options for poor (or even middle class people)? In the absence of such options, these people will simply move to another location and erect their shanties there. GOvt. will keep repeating this whole cycle every few years and it will not solve the basic issue of affordable urban housing. So let me restate. Slums are bad.. and filthy. Agreed. We should get rid of slums. Couldn`t agree more. Now how about focusing on how to provide these poor people with a housing solution they can afford?

Commie bashing is very easy. It is also an old game. I myself have indulged in it often on this very site. But it has been 15 years since India rejected socialism and accepted free market. Isn`t it about time we stopped using socialists and communists as scapegoats?

On this board everyone is whining (including the author) but no one is discussing the main issue or any solutions to it.

Re: # 75
The words socialist and secular were added to the consittution by Indira Gandhi in 1970s.

Re: # 63
Jang, you actually understood the point I am trying to make. A lot of middle class people think that the slum-dwellers in Bombay/Pune are leechers, criminals or free-loaders. The reality can`t be farther from this misconception.

This is from a BBC News article.....excerpt.......

``According to Professor John Kirton of the University of Toronto, the G8 is increasingly emerging as a ``shadow world government`` and developing countries are keen to have a seat at the table.

And, given the economic and political weight of countries like China, India, and Brazil, it is impossible for G8 leaders who want to get things done to ignore them.

Both India and Brazil hope to get permanent UN Security Council seats when the UN reform plans are discussed in September.``

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4675239.stm

And, this is inspite of the `poor` ,the irresponsible and worthless(read: socialists)....

Re: # 79
Kunal I am reproducing the part of 42nd amendment to the constituion of india. you can find it online at http://indiacode.nic.in/coiweb/amend/amend42.htm
As you see this particular amendment added ``SOCIALIST SECULAR`` to the preamble of our constitution.

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THE CONSTITUTION (FORTY-SECOND AMENDMENT) ACT, 1976
[18th December, 1976.]
An Act further to amend the Constitution of India.
BE it enacted by Parliament in the Twenty-seventh Year of the Republic
of India as follows:-
1. Short title and commencement.- (1) This Act may be called the
Constitution (Forty-second Amendment) Act, 1976.
(2) It shall come into force on such date as the Central Government
may, by notification in the Official Gazette, appoint and different
dates may be appointed for different provisions of this Act.
2. Amendment of the Preamble.- In the Preamble to the Constitution,-
(a) for the words ``SOVEREIGN DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC`` the words ``SOVEREIGN
SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC`` shall be substituted; and
(b) for the words ``unity of the Nation``, the words ``unity and
integrity of the Nation`` shall be substituted.

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