Being Imrana
Zafar Anjum July 12, 2005
#196 Posted by Dalit on July 15, 2005 12:30:49 pm
# 175 Romair
Soem answers to your questions....
the attitude was that one Muslim killed, was one Muslim less. (Ch.IV)
The orders from the senior officers in the district to the police could be summarised in one pharase: “Muslims must be taught a lesson”.
2. One of the manifestations of extreme intolerance against Muslims on the part of aggressive religio-political Hindu nationalists and prejudiced and discriminatory attitude of the personnel of law-enforcement has been the periodic riots and pogroms targeting Muslims causing loss of life, property, honour and destruction of their places of worship. Tens of thousands of such riots have occurred in India since Independence. The number of major riots easily runs into hundreds.
2.1 12.1 This writer visited Jabalpur in 1961 and lived there for a month providing relief to the victims of first major anti-Muslim riots. I met the boy who had turned insane for having witnessed from a tree top the ghastly scene of all members of his extended family getting shot dead, while trying to escape from their torched house. Insanity was also the fate of a mother, a leaf-gatherer, whose only infant was snatched from her breast and trampled upon by Hindu rioters, who were avenging the death by suicide of a Hindu girl who had conceived from an illicit love (not rape) with a Muslim boy. Hundreds of Muslim girls were raped.
2.2 12.3 The 1978 Aligarh riots revealed a more disturbing feature than earlier inaction of police. The PUCL & DR Report found the PAC targeting Muslims, shooting to kill them in the name of controlling riots.29 This connivance, complicity and active participation of the administration and the police in riots with a view to teaching the Muslims a lesson acquired alarming proportions during 1980s and 1990s.
2.3 12.4 The following are some of the findings related to the role of the police and other agencies of law-enforcement system.
The following extracts from the Justice D.P. Madon Commission Report on Bhiwandi, Jalgaon & Mahad (1970) riots reveal the biases in the police:
“Para 103.148 Discrimination was also practised in making arrests and while Muslims rioters were arrested in large numbers, the Police turned a blind eye to what the Hindu rioters were doing. Some innocent Muslims were arrested knowing them to be innocent. Some innocent Muslims who went to take shelter at the Bhiwandi Town Police Station were arrested instead of being given shelter and protection”.30
About Jalgaon riots of 1970 the Commission makes the following observations:
“104.34 The real reason for the inadequacy of the measures taken by the authorities was the communal bent of mind of some officers and the incompetence of the others”.
“3. No attempts were made to check the rioting and arson at Joshi Peth, though fifty-four Muslim houses were set on fire there and the flames could be seen even from a distance of two miles”.
The Commission reported the following findings about the communally biased working of the Special Investigation Squad constituted to investigate riot cases in Jalgaon:
1. 1. Para103.165 “The working of the Special Investigation Squad, Bhiwandi, is a study in communal discrimination.
2. 2. The officers of the Squad systematically set about implicating as many Muslims and exculpating as many Hindus as possible irrespective of whether they were innocent or guilty”.
2.4 12.5 The Sixth Report of the National Police Commission (1981) also takes note of biased and partial behaviour of the police thus:
“We also heard of stringent criticism from many responsible quarters that the police do not often act with impartiality and objectively. Several instances have been cited where police officers and men appear to have shown unmistakable bias against a particular community while dealing with communal situations. Serious allegations of high handedness and other atrocities, including such criminal activities as arson and looting, molestation of women etc. have been levelled against the police deployed to protect the citizens”. 31
2.5 12.6 Mr. N.C. Saxena IAS, who as Joint Secretary of the NCM inquired into the 1982 Meerut riots reported that “the District Administration right from the very beginning perceived threat to public peace only from Muslims and therefore, they chose to take onesided action in pursuance of their thinking, observations and the reports which were received by them from the intelligence machinery. The orders from the senior officers in the district to the police could be summarised in one pharase: “Muslims must be taught a lesson”. The PAC and the police faithfully implemented this policy. Looting and arson, in this context, was considered legitimate and necessary, and was therefore ignored”.32
2.6 12.7 The Amnesty International’s Report on Allegations of Extra Judicial Killings by the PAC In and Around Meerut, 22-23 May, 1987 makes the following observation about the PAC : Members of the PAC have repeatedly been accused of carrying out their duties in a partisan manner when employed to control rioting between the Hindu and Muslim communities. On a number of occasions PAC members themselves are said to have participated in violence directed against members of the minority community, including unprovoked and indiscriminate killings.33
2.7 12.8 The following are some of the conclusions of the NCM study on riots carried out in 1983 to find out the attitudes of district and police officers during riots:
“Muslims are excitable and irrational people who are guided by their religious instincts. Hindus, on the other hand are law abiding and cooperate with the police in controlling communal violence.
“State Government attaches a great deal of importance in ensuring quick control of rioting. Since Muslims are aggressive, therefore, in order to control violence, it is necessary that Muslim mobs must be taught a lesson through arrests, firing and third degree methods”.
2.8 12.9 Mr. V.N. Rai senior police officer presently holding the rank of I.G., BSF, who worked for a year on his dissertation “Perception of Police Neutrality During Hindu-Muslim Riots in India” reports in his published dissertation (1996)34 the following:
(a) (a) Police behave partially during most riots. In all the riots discussed in this study, they did not act as a neutral law enforcement agency but more as a “Hindu” force.
(b) (b) Perceptible discrimination was visible in the use of force, preventive arrests, enforcement of curfew, treatment of detained persons at police stations, reporting of facts and investigation, detection and prosecution of cases registered during riots. Muslims suffered in all of the above mentioned areas.
(c) (c) An average policeman does not shed his prejudices and predetermined beliefs at the time of his entry into the force, and this is reflected in his bias against Muslims during communal violence.
(d) (d) The inimical relationship between police and Muslims make them overreact in a confrontation-like situation
2.9 12.10 Justice B.N. Srikrishna makes the following observations in his Report on Bombay riots (1992-93):35
“1.6 The Commission is of the view that there is evidence of police bias against Muslims which has manifested itself in other ways like the harsh treatment given to them, failure to register even cognizable offences by Muslim complainants and the indecent haste shown in classifying offences registered in “A” summary in cases where Muslim complainant has specifically indicated the names and even addresses of the miscreants. That there was a general bias against the Muslims in the minds of the average policemen which was evident in the way they dealt with the Muslims, is accepted by the officer of the rank of Additional Commissioner, V.N. Deshmukh. This general police bias against Muslims crystallized itself in action during January 1993. (Ch.II)
“1.29 The built-in-bias of the police force against Muslims became more pronounced with murderous attacks on the Constabulary and officers and manifested in their reluctance to firmly put down incidents of violence, looting and arson which went on unchecked”. (Ch.II)
“1.11 The response of police to appeals from desperate victims, particularly Muslims, was cynical and utterly indifferent. On occasions, the response was that they were unable to leave the appointed post; on others, the attitude was that one Muslim killed, was one Muslim less. (Ch.IV)
“1.13 Police officers and men, particularly at the junior level, appeared to have an inbuilt bias against the Muslims which was evident in their treatment of the suspected Muslims and Muslim victims of riots. The treatment given was harsh and brutal and on occasions, bordering on inhuman, hardly doing credit to the police. The bias of policemen was seen in the active connivance of police constables with the rioting Hindu mobs on occasions, with their adopting the role of passive onlookers on occasions, and finally, in their lack of enthusiasm in registering offences against Hindus even when the accused were clearly identified and post haste classifying the cases in “A” summary”. (Ch.IV)
“1.14 Even the registered riot-related offences were most unsatisfactorily investigated. The investigations showed lack of enthusiasm, lackadaisical approach and utter cynicism. Despite clear clues the miscreants were not pursued, arrested and interrogated, particularly when the suspected accused happened to be Hindus with connections to Shiv Sena or Shiv Sainiks. This general apathy appears to be the outcome of the built-in prejudice in the mind of an average policeman that every Muslim is prone to crime”.(Ch.IV)
2.10 12.11 As in Ahmadabad (1969) the ruling party’s Ministers were more interested in their political survival than in saving innocent lives through impartial law enforcement, in all other riots including the demolition of the Babri Masjid, the police does not consider itself a professionally independent body accountable to law, but a subordinate body which is to carry out policies of those who wield power, based on cynical calculation of political survival and consolidation.
3. 13. The two decades (1980s and 1990s) after the incident of mass conversion of lower caste Hindus to Islam at Meenakshipuram in South India (1981), have witnessed the rise of militant Hindutva for consolidation of Hindus as a nation with the slogan earlier given by Veer Savankar for Hinduisation of polity and militarisation of Hinduism. The period witnessed competitive politics of Hindu communalism between the Congress and the BJP and its Parivar.
This has been also the phase of the rise of caste based political mobilisation of backwards, making upper caste Hindus develop a sense of siege within, and hence its aggressiveness against Muslims and now Christians. Under the same forces of competitive Hindu communalism the Sikh were taught the most bloody lesson in 1984, which witnessed State supervised genocide of Sikhs in Delhi & other places.
3.1 13.1 The period witnessed worst carnages involving Muslims including Moradabad (1980), Meerut (1982) Nellie (Assam) 1983, Hashimpura, Meerut (1987), Bhagalpur (1989). And Blood baths occurred at a large number of places in 1990 in the wake of Rathyatra and shilanyas and again at the time of the demolition of Babri Masjid on 6th December 1992.
All of them are attributable to Hindu politics of hate and revenge against Muslims and Islam for their supposed sins of 1000 year of Hindu-Muslim encounter in India including partition of the country. But the success of the politics of hate and revenge has depended entirely on the fragility and malfunctioning of the institutions of rule of law i.e. the administration, the police and the judiciary. Given the politics of hate and revenge, given the partisan role of the police and the administration as well as the communal prejudices and biases against Muslims in officers and personnel who man the law enforcement machinery, as noted by national and international human rights organisations and including official Commissions of inquiries and given the negligible representation of Muslims in the police and other wings of this machinery, and given the fact that the judiciary has failed to come to their rescue by delivering speedy justice, the lot of Muslims can very well be imagined.
3.2 13.2 The story of the cold blooded killings of Muslims (of Hashimpura (Meerut) and of the adjoining village of Malliana by the U.P.’s Provincial Armed Constabulary (PAC) on 22-23 May 1987 and the manner the criminal justice system has been dealing with the case as well as the callousness of the people towards the case needs to be retold here. About the gruesome killings of Hashimpura the Amnesty International Report says:
“On 22 may several hundred men from the Hashimpura area of Meerut were seen being taken away in several trucks by PAC members. Witnesses said most were taken to local police stations but several dozen in the first two or three trucks were reportedly taken to the banks of the Upper Ganga canal near Muradnagar, shot and their bodies thrown in the water. By the last week of May, over 50 bodies had reportedly been found in the canal. Eighteen more were officially admitted to have been recovered from the nearby Hindon canal at Ghaziabad, although Indian journalists visiting Muradnagar and neighbouring places said that at least twice that number had been recovered; eye-witnesses said the bodies had been thrown in the canal by armed men in uniform. Two of the five survivors of the incident have testified that they were taken to the canal at Muradnagar by uniformed men who they identified as the PAC, who shot them and threw them in the canal. It is now believed that all the bodies found in the water were of men taken away from Hasbimpura although initial reports had indicated the bodies found in the Hindon canal were of victims of the killings which subsequently took place in Maliana”.36
“According to Indian journalists who visited Maliana immediately after the incident and interviewed eye-witnesses, houses of Muslims were looted and burned by the PAC and some of its inhabitants burned alive. At last 30 residents of Malaina are estimated to have been deliberately shot dead by the PAC in unprovoked and indiscriminate shootings, their bodies burned and thrown in wells or, some allege, taken away by the PAC and disposed of in secret. Dozens of others are still reported missing.”
“Eye-witnesses said that the PAC, led by senior officers, including the commandant of the 44th battalion, entered Maliana between 2 and 2.30pm on 23 May, took up positions around the village and announced they would carry out a search. Some villagers fled to the centre of the village, but said one man: “they followed us there and took position on roof tops. They shouted abuses and warned that the firing would continue if we did not come out. But when we came out they began firing on us. Even women and children were not spared”. According to other press reports there was some resistance to the police action and stones were thrown at the PAC who then took up position and fired at people after telling them to leave their houses. The PAC are also alleged to have entered houses and shot the inhabitants, killing entire families. One survivor was quoted as saying: “They burnt out house to ashes.....They killed my children in front of my eyes”. Another Yameen, a 30 year old fruit vendor, said he saw his 60 year old father Mohammad Akbar hacked to death, his body burned and his house set on fire”.
“Initially, the local administration described the incident as a “minor case of cross-firing in which a few people have died”.
Read more here…
http://www.indianmuslim.org.uk/Intolerance%20And%20Discrimination%20Against%20Muslims%20as%20A%20Religious%20Minority%20in%20India.htm
Soem answers to your questions....
the attitude was that one Muslim killed, was one Muslim less. (Ch.IV)
The orders from the senior officers in the district to the police could be summarised in one pharase: “Muslims must be taught a lesson”.
2. One of the manifestations of extreme intolerance against Muslims on the part of aggressive religio-political Hindu nationalists and prejudiced and discriminatory attitude of the personnel of law-enforcement has been the periodic riots and pogroms targeting Muslims causing loss of life, property, honour and destruction of their places of worship. Tens of thousands of such riots have occurred in India since Independence. The number of major riots easily runs into hundreds.
2.1 12.1 This writer visited Jabalpur in 1961 and lived there for a month providing relief to the victims of first major anti-Muslim riots. I met the boy who had turned insane for having witnessed from a tree top the ghastly scene of all members of his extended family getting shot dead, while trying to escape from their torched house. Insanity was also the fate of a mother, a leaf-gatherer, whose only infant was snatched from her breast and trampled upon by Hindu rioters, who were avenging the death by suicide of a Hindu girl who had conceived from an illicit love (not rape) with a Muslim boy. Hundreds of Muslim girls were raped.
2.2 12.3 The 1978 Aligarh riots revealed a more disturbing feature than earlier inaction of police. The PUCL & DR Report found the PAC targeting Muslims, shooting to kill them in the name of controlling riots.29 This connivance, complicity and active participation of the administration and the police in riots with a view to teaching the Muslims a lesson acquired alarming proportions during 1980s and 1990s.
2.3 12.4 The following are some of the findings related to the role of the police and other agencies of law-enforcement system.
The following extracts from the Justice D.P. Madon Commission Report on Bhiwandi, Jalgaon & Mahad (1970) riots reveal the biases in the police:
“Para 103.148 Discrimination was also practised in making arrests and while Muslims rioters were arrested in large numbers, the Police turned a blind eye to what the Hindu rioters were doing. Some innocent Muslims were arrested knowing them to be innocent. Some innocent Muslims who went to take shelter at the Bhiwandi Town Police Station were arrested instead of being given shelter and protection”.30
About Jalgaon riots of 1970 the Commission makes the following observations:
“104.34 The real reason for the inadequacy of the measures taken by the authorities was the communal bent of mind of some officers and the incompetence of the others”.
“3. No attempts were made to check the rioting and arson at Joshi Peth, though fifty-four Muslim houses were set on fire there and the flames could be seen even from a distance of two miles”.
The Commission reported the following findings about the communally biased working of the Special Investigation Squad constituted to investigate riot cases in Jalgaon:
1. 1. Para103.165 “The working of the Special Investigation Squad, Bhiwandi, is a study in communal discrimination.
2. 2. The officers of the Squad systematically set about implicating as many Muslims and exculpating as many Hindus as possible irrespective of whether they were innocent or guilty”.
2.4 12.5 The Sixth Report of the National Police Commission (1981) also takes note of biased and partial behaviour of the police thus:
“We also heard of stringent criticism from many responsible quarters that the police do not often act with impartiality and objectively. Several instances have been cited where police officers and men appear to have shown unmistakable bias against a particular community while dealing with communal situations. Serious allegations of high handedness and other atrocities, including such criminal activities as arson and looting, molestation of women etc. have been levelled against the police deployed to protect the citizens”. 31
2.5 12.6 Mr. N.C. Saxena IAS, who as Joint Secretary of the NCM inquired into the 1982 Meerut riots reported that “the District Administration right from the very beginning perceived threat to public peace only from Muslims and therefore, they chose to take onesided action in pursuance of their thinking, observations and the reports which were received by them from the intelligence machinery. The orders from the senior officers in the district to the police could be summarised in one pharase: “Muslims must be taught a lesson”. The PAC and the police faithfully implemented this policy. Looting and arson, in this context, was considered legitimate and necessary, and was therefore ignored”.32
2.6 12.7 The Amnesty International’s Report on Allegations of Extra Judicial Killings by the PAC In and Around Meerut, 22-23 May, 1987 makes the following observation about the PAC : Members of the PAC have repeatedly been accused of carrying out their duties in a partisan manner when employed to control rioting between the Hindu and Muslim communities. On a number of occasions PAC members themselves are said to have participated in violence directed against members of the minority community, including unprovoked and indiscriminate killings.33
2.7 12.8 The following are some of the conclusions of the NCM study on riots carried out in 1983 to find out the attitudes of district and police officers during riots:
“Muslims are excitable and irrational people who are guided by their religious instincts. Hindus, on the other hand are law abiding and cooperate with the police in controlling communal violence.
“State Government attaches a great deal of importance in ensuring quick control of rioting. Since Muslims are aggressive, therefore, in order to control violence, it is necessary that Muslim mobs must be taught a lesson through arrests, firing and third degree methods”.
2.8 12.9 Mr. V.N. Rai senior police officer presently holding the rank of I.G., BSF, who worked for a year on his dissertation “Perception of Police Neutrality During Hindu-Muslim Riots in India” reports in his published dissertation (1996)34 the following:
(a) (a) Police behave partially during most riots. In all the riots discussed in this study, they did not act as a neutral law enforcement agency but more as a “Hindu” force.
(b) (b) Perceptible discrimination was visible in the use of force, preventive arrests, enforcement of curfew, treatment of detained persons at police stations, reporting of facts and investigation, detection and prosecution of cases registered during riots. Muslims suffered in all of the above mentioned areas.
(c) (c) An average policeman does not shed his prejudices and predetermined beliefs at the time of his entry into the force, and this is reflected in his bias against Muslims during communal violence.
(d) (d) The inimical relationship between police and Muslims make them overreact in a confrontation-like situation
2.9 12.10 Justice B.N. Srikrishna makes the following observations in his Report on Bombay riots (1992-93):35
“1.6 The Commission is of the view that there is evidence of police bias against Muslims which has manifested itself in other ways like the harsh treatment given to them, failure to register even cognizable offences by Muslim complainants and the indecent haste shown in classifying offences registered in “A” summary in cases where Muslim complainant has specifically indicated the names and even addresses of the miscreants. That there was a general bias against the Muslims in the minds of the average policemen which was evident in the way they dealt with the Muslims, is accepted by the officer of the rank of Additional Commissioner, V.N. Deshmukh. This general police bias against Muslims crystallized itself in action during January 1993. (Ch.II)
“1.29 The built-in-bias of the police force against Muslims became more pronounced with murderous attacks on the Constabulary and officers and manifested in their reluctance to firmly put down incidents of violence, looting and arson which went on unchecked”. (Ch.II)
“1.11 The response of police to appeals from desperate victims, particularly Muslims, was cynical and utterly indifferent. On occasions, the response was that they were unable to leave the appointed post; on others, the attitude was that one Muslim killed, was one Muslim less. (Ch.IV)
“1.13 Police officers and men, particularly at the junior level, appeared to have an inbuilt bias against the Muslims which was evident in their treatment of the suspected Muslims and Muslim victims of riots. The treatment given was harsh and brutal and on occasions, bordering on inhuman, hardly doing credit to the police. The bias of policemen was seen in the active connivance of police constables with the rioting Hindu mobs on occasions, with their adopting the role of passive onlookers on occasions, and finally, in their lack of enthusiasm in registering offences against Hindus even when the accused were clearly identified and post haste classifying the cases in “A” summary”. (Ch.IV)
“1.14 Even the registered riot-related offences were most unsatisfactorily investigated. The investigations showed lack of enthusiasm, lackadaisical approach and utter cynicism. Despite clear clues the miscreants were not pursued, arrested and interrogated, particularly when the suspected accused happened to be Hindus with connections to Shiv Sena or Shiv Sainiks. This general apathy appears to be the outcome of the built-in prejudice in the mind of an average policeman that every Muslim is prone to crime”.(Ch.IV)
2.10 12.11 As in Ahmadabad (1969) the ruling party’s Ministers were more interested in their political survival than in saving innocent lives through impartial law enforcement, in all other riots including the demolition of the Babri Masjid, the police does not consider itself a professionally independent body accountable to law, but a subordinate body which is to carry out policies of those who wield power, based on cynical calculation of political survival and consolidation.
3. 13. The two decades (1980s and 1990s) after the incident of mass conversion of lower caste Hindus to Islam at Meenakshipuram in South India (1981), have witnessed the rise of militant Hindutva for consolidation of Hindus as a nation with the slogan earlier given by Veer Savankar for Hinduisation of polity and militarisation of Hinduism. The period witnessed competitive politics of Hindu communalism between the Congress and the BJP and its Parivar.
This has been also the phase of the rise of caste based political mobilisation of backwards, making upper caste Hindus develop a sense of siege within, and hence its aggressiveness against Muslims and now Christians. Under the same forces of competitive Hindu communalism the Sikh were taught the most bloody lesson in 1984, which witnessed State supervised genocide of Sikhs in Delhi & other places.
3.1 13.1 The period witnessed worst carnages involving Muslims including Moradabad (1980), Meerut (1982) Nellie (Assam) 1983, Hashimpura, Meerut (1987), Bhagalpur (1989). And Blood baths occurred at a large number of places in 1990 in the wake of Rathyatra and shilanyas and again at the time of the demolition of Babri Masjid on 6th December 1992.
All of them are attributable to Hindu politics of hate and revenge against Muslims and Islam for their supposed sins of 1000 year of Hindu-Muslim encounter in India including partition of the country. But the success of the politics of hate and revenge has depended entirely on the fragility and malfunctioning of the institutions of rule of law i.e. the administration, the police and the judiciary. Given the politics of hate and revenge, given the partisan role of the police and the administration as well as the communal prejudices and biases against Muslims in officers and personnel who man the law enforcement machinery, as noted by national and international human rights organisations and including official Commissions of inquiries and given the negligible representation of Muslims in the police and other wings of this machinery, and given the fact that the judiciary has failed to come to their rescue by delivering speedy justice, the lot of Muslims can very well be imagined.
3.2 13.2 The story of the cold blooded killings of Muslims (of Hashimpura (Meerut) and of the adjoining village of Malliana by the U.P.’s Provincial Armed Constabulary (PAC) on 22-23 May 1987 and the manner the criminal justice system has been dealing with the case as well as the callousness of the people towards the case needs to be retold here. About the gruesome killings of Hashimpura the Amnesty International Report says:
“On 22 may several hundred men from the Hashimpura area of Meerut were seen being taken away in several trucks by PAC members. Witnesses said most were taken to local police stations but several dozen in the first two or three trucks were reportedly taken to the banks of the Upper Ganga canal near Muradnagar, shot and their bodies thrown in the water. By the last week of May, over 50 bodies had reportedly been found in the canal. Eighteen more were officially admitted to have been recovered from the nearby Hindon canal at Ghaziabad, although Indian journalists visiting Muradnagar and neighbouring places said that at least twice that number had been recovered; eye-witnesses said the bodies had been thrown in the canal by armed men in uniform. Two of the five survivors of the incident have testified that they were taken to the canal at Muradnagar by uniformed men who they identified as the PAC, who shot them and threw them in the canal. It is now believed that all the bodies found in the water were of men taken away from Hasbimpura although initial reports had indicated the bodies found in the Hindon canal were of victims of the killings which subsequently took place in Maliana”.36
“According to Indian journalists who visited Maliana immediately after the incident and interviewed eye-witnesses, houses of Muslims were looted and burned by the PAC and some of its inhabitants burned alive. At last 30 residents of Malaina are estimated to have been deliberately shot dead by the PAC in unprovoked and indiscriminate shootings, their bodies burned and thrown in wells or, some allege, taken away by the PAC and disposed of in secret. Dozens of others are still reported missing.”
“Eye-witnesses said that the PAC, led by senior officers, including the commandant of the 44th battalion, entered Maliana between 2 and 2.30pm on 23 May, took up positions around the village and announced they would carry out a search. Some villagers fled to the centre of the village, but said one man: “they followed us there and took position on roof tops. They shouted abuses and warned that the firing would continue if we did not come out. But when we came out they began firing on us. Even women and children were not spared”. According to other press reports there was some resistance to the police action and stones were thrown at the PAC who then took up position and fired at people after telling them to leave their houses. The PAC are also alleged to have entered houses and shot the inhabitants, killing entire families. One survivor was quoted as saying: “They burnt out house to ashes.....They killed my children in front of my eyes”. Another Yameen, a 30 year old fruit vendor, said he saw his 60 year old father Mohammad Akbar hacked to death, his body burned and his house set on fire”.
“Initially, the local administration described the incident as a “minor case of cross-firing in which a few people have died”.
Read more here…
http://www.indianmuslim.org.uk/Intolerance%20And%20Discrimination%20Against%20Muslims%20as%20A%20Religious%20Minority%20in%20India.htm
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#195 Posted by cayenne on July 15, 2005 12:11:37 pm
Re: # 184
If this site didn`t encourage provocative articles about hindus and indians as much as it does, then maybe the tone would be better.Indians are more vocal and have more expression than other races in the subcontinent.Witness a street fight in India and you would understand why we sometimes beat up on each other quite a lot.But at the end of the day we do believe in our country and all who live in it.That`s why we got it going on.
If this site didn`t encourage provocative articles about hindus and indians as much as it does, then maybe the tone would be better.Indians are more vocal and have more expression than other races in the subcontinent.Witness a street fight in India and you would understand why we sometimes beat up on each other quite a lot.But at the end of the day we do believe in our country and all who live in it.That`s why we got it going on.
#194 Posted by cayenne on July 15, 2005 12:01:27 pm
Re: # 193
Who`s Nikki Mikey??.I am Cayenne and i AM NOT a Roman Catholic.I am not religious, but have a good working knowledge about all the religious scams out there.Not that i`m on a crusade about it.Far from it.I like to thumb my nose at the farcical harangues on religion that some interactors serve up on this site for the public to read.I like to have fun , even if it is at someone else`s expense, which is usually my last resort.And, my primary targets are touchy, feely, politically correct, feminine, family oriented,female respecting, middle class desi men.I hope i have clarified myself to you and you will not confuse me with any other.
Quote from Mike ``Also..some of the people you stupid pakis mistake for horrible hindooos..`` hehe
Who`s Nikki Mikey??.I am Cayenne and i AM NOT a Roman Catholic.I am not religious, but have a good working knowledge about all the religious scams out there.Not that i`m on a crusade about it.Far from it.I like to thumb my nose at the farcical harangues on religion that some interactors serve up on this site for the public to read.I like to have fun , even if it is at someone else`s expense, which is usually my last resort.And, my primary targets are touchy, feely, politically correct, feminine, family oriented,female respecting, middle class desi men.I hope i have clarified myself to you and you will not confuse me with any other.
Quote from Mike ``Also..some of the people you stupid pakis mistake for horrible hindooos..`` hehe
#193 Posted by Mike on July 15, 2005 11:49:18 am
And even horrible hindooo fundoos like myself have nothing against Indian muslims who love India as much as we do...people like than on this website are many - Jawahara , Ballu Khan , Faruk , Zafar Al Talib etc.
Also..some of the people you stupid pakis mistake for horrible hindooos are not even hindus in the first place....Arjun , Alephnull , and that crazy Cayenne/Nikki are actually christians..Roman Catholics if my guess is correct...
Also..some of the people you stupid pakis mistake for horrible hindooos are not even hindus in the first place....Arjun , Alephnull , and that crazy Cayenne/Nikki are actually christians..Roman Catholics if my guess is correct...
#192 Posted by Mike on July 15, 2005 11:43:26 am
`` I have never seen the kind of abuse hurled at Muslims (including Indian Muslims) on any Canadian or US or British website, as I have seen here. ``
Romair Mian...you seem to be blissfully ignorant...obviously the internet revolution has escaped you. Just visit the most popular American intereatctive websites and blogs like littlegreenfootballs , freerepublic , hughhewitt etc. to find out what Americans think of muslims ...and pakis. And trust me...its not pleasant. Even horrible hindoooo hatemongers like Harimau and myself are dhimmis compared to these guys. They hate you `sandniggers` with unmatched passion.
Infact for Indians like me - we just follow the trend from US. Just like my parents` generation followed the trends from UK (where the top universties have a letist slant (even today)) in their time. So if majority of upwardly mobile westernised Indian youth dont like muslims too much , its not because of some `RSS shakkas` which we have never even seen, but because Americans think its cool to hate muslims...
US sets the rules , US sets the trend...we are just happy to tag along ;)
For me personally , I cant thank enough those 19 lunatics who did what they did...because of them , Romair , you Pakis can squeal about `India`s State Terrorism in Kashmir` for as long as you want , but nobody really gives a flying eff...
Romair Mian...you seem to be blissfully ignorant...obviously the internet revolution has escaped you. Just visit the most popular American intereatctive websites and blogs like littlegreenfootballs , freerepublic , hughhewitt etc. to find out what Americans think of muslims ...and pakis. And trust me...its not pleasant. Even horrible hindoooo hatemongers like Harimau and myself are dhimmis compared to these guys. They hate you `sandniggers` with unmatched passion.
Infact for Indians like me - we just follow the trend from US. Just like my parents` generation followed the trends from UK (where the top universties have a letist slant (even today)) in their time. So if majority of upwardly mobile westernised Indian youth dont like muslims too much , its not because of some `RSS shakkas` which we have never even seen, but because Americans think its cool to hate muslims...
US sets the rules , US sets the trend...we are just happy to tag along ;)
For me personally , I cant thank enough those 19 lunatics who did what they did...because of them , Romair , you Pakis can squeal about `India`s State Terrorism in Kashmir` for as long as you want , but nobody really gives a flying eff...
#191 Posted by arjun_m on July 15, 2005 11:04:03 am
#184 by Romair on July 15, 2005 9:09am PT
Even when certain Indians encourage, what to me, at least, is State terrorism in Kashmir – an ethnicity to which I belong – I don’t hurl religious abuse. Even though, to me, personally, not recognizing that as State terrorism is the equivalent of not recognizing Al-Qaeda’s actions as terrorism
El Capitan....Who gives a flying F@#$ to what you think is terrorism...
I can openly donate money to an the Indian army welfare fund
Can you donate money openly to the Lashkar-e-Toiba or Jaish-e-Mohammed without a visit from trailer-park Lynndie? No?..didn`t think so...
bottom line: as far as the countries we live in(US/Canuckistan), one party is a terrorist entity and the other party is engaged in fighting terrorism..guess which one is which...
Even when certain Indians encourage, what to me, at least, is State terrorism in Kashmir – an ethnicity to which I belong – I don’t hurl religious abuse. Even though, to me, personally, not recognizing that as State terrorism is the equivalent of not recognizing Al-Qaeda’s actions as terrorism
El Capitan....Who gives a flying F@#$ to what you think is terrorism...
I can openly donate money to an the Indian army welfare fund
Can you donate money openly to the Lashkar-e-Toiba or Jaish-e-Mohammed without a visit from trailer-park Lynndie? No?..didn`t think so...
bottom line: as far as the countries we live in(US/Canuckistan), one party is a terrorist entity and the other party is engaged in fighting terrorism..guess which one is which...
#190 Posted by harimau on July 15, 2005 10:58:14 am
Ref ana #183
[harimau:
did i miss something? where did my name come into all of this. oh, but then i looked and realized. i don`t read romair`s posts beyond the first paragraph. i stopped doing that a while ago. i still haven`t read that entire post. . .]
Actually, Romair`s posts are entertaining. He is unintentionally funny.
[so i`m still confused about what this list is all about. but oh well. . .]
In an earlier post I had asked what would be a Pakistani`s position on Sharia for criminal offenses for Indian Muslims. I threw your name on the list to see what a minority Pakistani might have to say on that. Urstruly, _digit, Umbertoeco and Khamkhwa. have no answers though they are vociferous on Muslim Personal Law for Indian Muslims. They would also be for the Haj subsidy for Indian Muslims, I am sure.
So lng as you can get something free as in the times of Aurangzeb and that too from the Horrible Hindoos, Muslims demand it as a right. But they are not willing to follow their own religion when it comes to punishment for criminal offenses. I wonder why. Are they all criminals?
[harimau:
did i miss something? where did my name come into all of this. oh, but then i looked and realized. i don`t read romair`s posts beyond the first paragraph. i stopped doing that a while ago. i still haven`t read that entire post. . .]
Actually, Romair`s posts are entertaining. He is unintentionally funny.
[so i`m still confused about what this list is all about. but oh well. . .]
In an earlier post I had asked what would be a Pakistani`s position on Sharia for criminal offenses for Indian Muslims. I threw your name on the list to see what a minority Pakistani might have to say on that. Urstruly, _digit, Umbertoeco and Khamkhwa. have no answers though they are vociferous on Muslim Personal Law for Indian Muslims. They would also be for the Haj subsidy for Indian Muslims, I am sure.
So lng as you can get something free as in the times of Aurangzeb and that too from the Horrible Hindoos, Muslims demand it as a right. But they are not willing to follow their own religion when it comes to punishment for criminal offenses. I wonder why. Are they all criminals?
#189 Posted by arjun_m on July 15, 2005 10:48:07 am
#180 by _digit on July 15, 2005 7:55am PT
Romair,
I`ve noticed the same.
Wow...two pakis have the same delusions and victimhood complexes....stop the presses...
Ask captain clueless what he felt about the imminent afghan invasion on Sept 13th, 2001..Betcha you didn`t know he was salivating to give up his point-of-sale representative job and drop the bombs on the afghans..especially when he thought joe sixpack would be falling at the feet of every paki in the US, speechless with gratitude...
ut then, that leads us to the mode of thought that the Hindus we know are in fact much like the hate mongers here, but simply hide their hate in our presence.
That`s right....the hindus are the hate mongers.. The pakis, majority of whom support OBL and continue to support the LeT and JeM, are prophets of peace and brotherhood..they`re interested in dialog but the hindu hate mongers turn them into suicide bombers...
Face it... Pakis want to dish it out but can`t handle the response.. Especially since the facts go against them..
An Indian posts a newspaper article from a British newspaper about the suicide bombers being brit-pakis and having turned into suicide bombers after a trip to you-know-where, they are hate mongers... The suicide bombers: heck, they`re just poor innocent victims of disenfranchisement and racism(and persecuted because of Iraq/Kashmir/Palestine etc etc)..
Funny how pakis think the world is going to forget how, before 9/11, they openly supported the terrorist groups like the LeT which are being linked to the London Bombings..
Romair,
I`ve noticed the same.
Wow...two pakis have the same delusions and victimhood complexes....stop the presses...
Ask captain clueless what he felt about the imminent afghan invasion on Sept 13th, 2001..Betcha you didn`t know he was salivating to give up his point-of-sale representative job and drop the bombs on the afghans..especially when he thought joe sixpack would be falling at the feet of every paki in the US, speechless with gratitude...
ut then, that leads us to the mode of thought that the Hindus we know are in fact much like the hate mongers here, but simply hide their hate in our presence.
That`s right....the hindus are the hate mongers.. The pakis, majority of whom support OBL and continue to support the LeT and JeM, are prophets of peace and brotherhood..they`re interested in dialog but the hindu hate mongers turn them into suicide bombers...
Face it... Pakis want to dish it out but can`t handle the response.. Especially since the facts go against them..
An Indian posts a newspaper article from a British newspaper about the suicide bombers being brit-pakis and having turned into suicide bombers after a trip to you-know-where, they are hate mongers... The suicide bombers: heck, they`re just poor innocent victims of disenfranchisement and racism(and persecuted because of Iraq/Kashmir/Palestine etc etc)..
Funny how pakis think the world is going to forget how, before 9/11, they openly supported the terrorist groups like the LeT which are being linked to the London Bombings..
#188 Posted by jang on July 15, 2005 10:12:11 am
#175 by Romair
heh heh..instead of calling the comments posted in your interact, why dont you categorily counter these? you are the one who always asks for ``dilog`` on all tapoics...(really find this funny.. heheh)
heh heh..instead of calling the comments posted in your interact, why dont you categorily counter these? you are the one who always asks for ``dilog`` on all tapoics...(really find this funny.. heheh)
#187 Posted by jang on July 15, 2005 10:02:39 am
_digit
``But then, that leads us to the mode of thought that the Hindus we know are in fact much like the hate mongers here, but simply hide their hate in our presence...I`d rather not think that as it`s unfair and improper. ``
you did not get the memo on hindu bania mentality.. munh mein ram aur bagal mein churi (rolling eyes)
``But then, that leads us to the mode of thought that the Hindus we know are in fact much like the hate mongers here, but simply hide their hate in our presence...I`d rather not think that as it`s unfair and improper. ``
you did not get the memo on hindu bania mentality.. munh mein ram aur bagal mein churi (rolling eyes)
#186 Posted by smsabir on July 15, 2005 9:51:26 am
Once a Mulla is always a Mulla.
Definition of a Mulla:
* Highly narrow minded
* Too hard headed to accept the true ideology of Islam and the teachings of the Prophet
* Illiterate if not academically then at least professionally
* Trained by nut heads like him and with a steel hard belief that he knows about every thing related to Quran, Hadees Mubarik and Fiqa.
Second definition- Someone who isn’t even a Jack but claims to be the Master of All.
Well like it or not but today Islam has become a toy for such Mulla people, people who are recreating Islam by making it look very difficult, horrible and unacceptable for many Muslims and non Muslims. Not only that but they are doing an awesome job to make millions of Non Muslims to laugh on us and on our religion.
After reading about Imrana’s case and the Fatwa, I felt embarrassed on being represented and leaded by such people who always walk over the true image of Islam.
But then it is also our own combine fault because we all have decided to walk away from our true identity and responsibilities towards Islam.
With all due respect for most of us Quran has become a necessary decoration piece in our home; authentic books of Hadees Mubarik have been replaced by the printed material related to politics, art, philosophy etc. books on Fiqa and Sharia – lets not talk about it.
So like it or not we are the creators of such Mulla Type Figures and Groups, we have left Islam on them and worrying about the other things which are definitely far less important as Islam but very crucial for our worldly rat race.
Today we all want that our kids go to best schools, do degrees related to business, IT, medical etc etc etc but how many of us want their kids to become well educated Islamic Scholars and become the true servants of Islam?
No reply?
Pin drop silence?
So with all due respect when we aren’t up for changing the whole scenario then why we are moaning and complaining?
Imrana’s case is a genuine proof that today we the Muslims desperately need a religious revolution – a revolution which can replace such Mulla Figurs with True Muslim Scholars, people who truly understand Islam and all areas of Islam.
I am sorry for being so blunt but it is good to be the no-nonsense type rather then swallowing chocolate coated poison and thinking saab acha hai.
May Allah bless and forgive us all.
Definition of a Mulla:
* Highly narrow minded
* Too hard headed to accept the true ideology of Islam and the teachings of the Prophet
* Illiterate if not academically then at least professionally
* Trained by nut heads like him and with a steel hard belief that he knows about every thing related to Quran, Hadees Mubarik and Fiqa.
Second definition- Someone who isn’t even a Jack but claims to be the Master of All.
Well like it or not but today Islam has become a toy for such Mulla people, people who are recreating Islam by making it look very difficult, horrible and unacceptable for many Muslims and non Muslims. Not only that but they are doing an awesome job to make millions of Non Muslims to laugh on us and on our religion.
After reading about Imrana’s case and the Fatwa, I felt embarrassed on being represented and leaded by such people who always walk over the true image of Islam.
But then it is also our own combine fault because we all have decided to walk away from our true identity and responsibilities towards Islam.
With all due respect for most of us Quran has become a necessary decoration piece in our home; authentic books of Hadees Mubarik have been replaced by the printed material related to politics, art, philosophy etc. books on Fiqa and Sharia – lets not talk about it.
So like it or not we are the creators of such Mulla Type Figures and Groups, we have left Islam on them and worrying about the other things which are definitely far less important as Islam but very crucial for our worldly rat race.
Today we all want that our kids go to best schools, do degrees related to business, IT, medical etc etc etc but how many of us want their kids to become well educated Islamic Scholars and become the true servants of Islam?
No reply?
Pin drop silence?
So with all due respect when we aren’t up for changing the whole scenario then why we are moaning and complaining?
Imrana’s case is a genuine proof that today we the Muslims desperately need a religious revolution – a revolution which can replace such Mulla Figurs with True Muslim Scholars, people who truly understand Islam and all areas of Islam.
I am sorry for being so blunt but it is good to be the no-nonsense type rather then swallowing chocolate coated poison and thinking saab acha hai.
May Allah bless and forgive us all.
#185 Posted by smsabir on July 15, 2005 9:48:12 am
Once a Mulla is always a Mulla.
Definition of a Mulla:
> Highly narrow minded
> Too hard headed to accept the true ideology of Islam and the teachings of the Prophet
> Illiterate if not academically then at least professionally
> Trained by nut heads like him and with a steel hard belief that he knows about every thing related to Quran, Hadees Mubarik and Fiqa.
Second definition- Someone who isn’t even a Jack but claims to be the Master of All.
Well like it or not but today Islam has become a toy for such Mulla people, people who are recreating Islam by making it look very difficult, horrible and unacceptable for many Muslims and non Muslims. Not only that but they are doing an awesome job to make millions of Non Muslims to laugh on us and on our religion.
After reading about Imrana’s case and the Fatwa, I felt embarrassed on being represented and leaded by such people who always walk over the true image of Islam.
But then it is also our own combine fault because we all have decided to walk away from our true identity and responsibilities towards Islam.
With all due respect for most of us Quran has become a necessary decoration piece in our home; authentic books of Hadees Mubarik have been replaced by the printed material related to politics, art, philosophy etc. books on Fiqa and Sharia – lets not talk about it.
So like it or not we are the creators of such Mulla Type Figures and Groups, we have left Islam on them and worrying about the other things which are definitely far less important as Islam but very crucial for our worldly rat race.
Today we all want that our kids go to best schools, do degrees related to business, IT, medical etc etc etc but how many of us want their kids to become well educated Islamic Scholars and become the true servants of Islam?
No reply?
Pin drop silence?
So with all due respect when we aren’t up for changing the whole scenario then why we are moaning and complaining?
Imrana’s case is a genuine proof that today we the Muslims desperately need a religious revolution – a revolution which can replace such Mulla Figurs with True Muslim Scholars, people who truly understand Islam and all areas of Islam.
I am sorry for being so blunt but it is good to be the no-nonsense type rather then swallowing chocolate coated poison and thinking saab acha hai.
May Allah bless and forgive us all.
Definition of a Mulla:
> Highly narrow minded
> Too hard headed to accept the true ideology of Islam and the teachings of the Prophet
> Illiterate if not academically then at least professionally
> Trained by nut heads like him and with a steel hard belief that he knows about every thing related to Quran, Hadees Mubarik and Fiqa.
Second definition- Someone who isn’t even a Jack but claims to be the Master of All.
Well like it or not but today Islam has become a toy for such Mulla people, people who are recreating Islam by making it look very difficult, horrible and unacceptable for many Muslims and non Muslims. Not only that but they are doing an awesome job to make millions of Non Muslims to laugh on us and on our religion.
After reading about Imrana’s case and the Fatwa, I felt embarrassed on being represented and leaded by such people who always walk over the true image of Islam.
But then it is also our own combine fault because we all have decided to walk away from our true identity and responsibilities towards Islam.
With all due respect for most of us Quran has become a necessary decoration piece in our home; authentic books of Hadees Mubarik have been replaced by the printed material related to politics, art, philosophy etc. books on Fiqa and Sharia – lets not talk about it.
So like it or not we are the creators of such Mulla Type Figures and Groups, we have left Islam on them and worrying about the other things which are definitely far less important as Islam but very crucial for our worldly rat race.
Today we all want that our kids go to best schools, do degrees related to business, IT, medical etc etc etc but how many of us want their kids to become well educated Islamic Scholars and become the true servants of Islam?
No reply?
Pin drop silence?
So with all due respect when we aren’t up for changing the whole scenario then why we are moaning and complaining?
Imrana’s case is a genuine proof that today we the Muslims desperately need a religious revolution – a revolution which can replace such Mulla Figurs with True Muslim Scholars, people who truly understand Islam and all areas of Islam.
I am sorry for being so blunt but it is good to be the no-nonsense type rather then swallowing chocolate coated poison and thinking saab acha hai.
May Allah bless and forgive us all.
#184 Posted by Romair on July 15, 2005 9:09:52 am
Mike #178: Perhaps you were unable to comprehend my question. Or perhaps I did not articulate it well enough. I didn`t ask about Europe, or USA etc. I asked specifically about India and Indians. And specifically the view of Indian Muslims. Indian Muslims are born and bred Indians. They didn`t migrate to India, from somewhere.
When people migrate to some country, voluntarily, there is a certain amount of discrimination, they will face. And they are usually ready for it. When the USA was at war with Serbia, the American-Serbians faced a certain amount of angst. In the current conflict with Iraq, Arabs and perhaps all Muslims in USA will feel it. It is not right, but it comes with the territory.
But, what about in one’s own country of birth? If worse comes to worse, I can go back to Pakistan. But what if, even in Pakistan, I had to go through more religious abuse? I have never seen the kind of abuse hurled at Muslims (including Indian Muslims) on any Canadian or US or British website, as I have seen here. If out of 20 Indian Hindu interactors on a thread, 15 are out rightly abusing their own citizens, then that has to be considered and addressed.
In all my time on Chowk, I have never hurled a religious abuse against anyone. If you can find any comment from me, based on a religious slur, please let me know. Even when certain Indians encourage, what to me, at least, is State terrorism in Kashmir – an ethnicity to which I belong – I don’t hurl religious abuse. Even though, to me, personally, not recognizing that as State terrorism is the equivalent of not recognizing Al-Qaeda’s actions as terrorism (I openly recognize Pakistan’s State terrorism in Bangladesh). Yet, despite my strong feelings on this or any other issue, you will never, ever, hear me saying Hindu B//tards etc. or start denouncing Hinduism, as a religion. I have been called a Muslim bas//ard and Muslim this and that. Yet never once have I replied in kind. Or made comparisons of my God and your God, etc. Or my book to your book. Never. It doesn’t matter how pissed off, I maybe at something any of Indian colleagues have said. It is not in my DNA to do so.
Yet, now, I have even experienced some of the most genuinely “Indo-Pak friendship” type Indian resort to religious slurs. It seems as if one pushes someone from India far enough on some political issue, they will invariably resort to a religious slur. Somewhere, deep inside they view the guy sitting next to them, as a Muslim or Hindu. And in an anonymous environment like this, that is shown openly. I am not sure some even understand what they are doing. It just seems to be an acceptable way of communicating. While I have become used to the normal RSS crowd resorting to such slurs, on this site, it is disturbing to see it spread across the board to, otherwise, normal Indian Hindus, also……….
As an example, Christian-Pakistanis face discrimination in Pakistan. I will be the first to admit that. However, if a Christian-Pakistani was having this kind of a discussion, on Chowk, I cannot imagine 75% or more of the Pakistanis, on this site, rely on hateful blunt religious slurs. And I think many, like me, would be trying to stop the religious slurs.
In fact, I openly challenge anyone on this site, to find any religious slur I have ever made (barring something where I am clearly exchanging jokes with a friend; if that). Yet I can quote so many, from our Indian colleagues, on just this thread………..
I see outright religious slurs against their own co-nationals amongst our Indian colleagues here. I have quoted so many of them, that it cannot be denied. And this thread is not unique. Yet not one single Indian is standing up and arguing against them. People seem more loyal to the feelings and sensibilities of Londoners and New Yorkers than they are to those of fellow Bombayites and Delhiites!!
The group that does go through that, amongst Pakistanis, are Ahmedis. They do tend to get it from all directions. But on this site, amongst educated Pakistanis, it is limited to a small group. Other than Urstruly, Naqshbandi, Malik99, and a few more, everyone isn’t calling them an Ahmedi f//ker, or Ahmedi ba//tard, etc.,or telling them to go to India. And some like me, and others, argue against the Urstrulys etc.
This is truly disturbing. It is even more disturbing in the Indo-Pak friendship context. Even you, in your reply, are trying to justify this hatred. While I don’t see how that will affect Pakistani Muslims, since they are secure, i.e. I deal with Indians on business issues, and if someone tossed a religious slur, I would react, and at worst, I would lose their business. But my day to day life would not be affected. And I wouldn’t be forced to live in fear. But I have to think, that such comments will affect your own Muslim countrymen. And I cannot figure out why our Indian colleagues, on this site, still continue on their blunt and subtle religious slurs, without even taking into account the sensibilities of your own countrymen…………..
When people migrate to some country, voluntarily, there is a certain amount of discrimination, they will face. And they are usually ready for it. When the USA was at war with Serbia, the American-Serbians faced a certain amount of angst. In the current conflict with Iraq, Arabs and perhaps all Muslims in USA will feel it. It is not right, but it comes with the territory.
But, what about in one’s own country of birth? If worse comes to worse, I can go back to Pakistan. But what if, even in Pakistan, I had to go through more religious abuse? I have never seen the kind of abuse hurled at Muslims (including Indian Muslims) on any Canadian or US or British website, as I have seen here. If out of 20 Indian Hindu interactors on a thread, 15 are out rightly abusing their own citizens, then that has to be considered and addressed.
In all my time on Chowk, I have never hurled a religious abuse against anyone. If you can find any comment from me, based on a religious slur, please let me know. Even when certain Indians encourage, what to me, at least, is State terrorism in Kashmir – an ethnicity to which I belong – I don’t hurl religious abuse. Even though, to me, personally, not recognizing that as State terrorism is the equivalent of not recognizing Al-Qaeda’s actions as terrorism (I openly recognize Pakistan’s State terrorism in Bangladesh). Yet, despite my strong feelings on this or any other issue, you will never, ever, hear me saying Hindu B//tards etc. or start denouncing Hinduism, as a religion. I have been called a Muslim bas//ard and Muslim this and that. Yet never once have I replied in kind. Or made comparisons of my God and your God, etc. Or my book to your book. Never. It doesn’t matter how pissed off, I maybe at something any of Indian colleagues have said. It is not in my DNA to do so.
Yet, now, I have even experienced some of the most genuinely “Indo-Pak friendship” type Indian resort to religious slurs. It seems as if one pushes someone from India far enough on some political issue, they will invariably resort to a religious slur. Somewhere, deep inside they view the guy sitting next to them, as a Muslim or Hindu. And in an anonymous environment like this, that is shown openly. I am not sure some even understand what they are doing. It just seems to be an acceptable way of communicating. While I have become used to the normal RSS crowd resorting to such slurs, on this site, it is disturbing to see it spread across the board to, otherwise, normal Indian Hindus, also……….
As an example, Christian-Pakistanis face discrimination in Pakistan. I will be the first to admit that. However, if a Christian-Pakistani was having this kind of a discussion, on Chowk, I cannot imagine 75% or more of the Pakistanis, on this site, rely on hateful blunt religious slurs. And I think many, like me, would be trying to stop the religious slurs.
In fact, I openly challenge anyone on this site, to find any religious slur I have ever made (barring something where I am clearly exchanging jokes with a friend; if that). Yet I can quote so many, from our Indian colleagues, on just this thread………..
I see outright religious slurs against their own co-nationals amongst our Indian colleagues here. I have quoted so many of them, that it cannot be denied. And this thread is not unique. Yet not one single Indian is standing up and arguing against them. People seem more loyal to the feelings and sensibilities of Londoners and New Yorkers than they are to those of fellow Bombayites and Delhiites!!
The group that does go through that, amongst Pakistanis, are Ahmedis. They do tend to get it from all directions. But on this site, amongst educated Pakistanis, it is limited to a small group. Other than Urstruly, Naqshbandi, Malik99, and a few more, everyone isn’t calling them an Ahmedi f//ker, or Ahmedi ba//tard, etc.,or telling them to go to India. And some like me, and others, argue against the Urstrulys etc.
This is truly disturbing. It is even more disturbing in the Indo-Pak friendship context. Even you, in your reply, are trying to justify this hatred. While I don’t see how that will affect Pakistani Muslims, since they are secure, i.e. I deal with Indians on business issues, and if someone tossed a religious slur, I would react, and at worst, I would lose their business. But my day to day life would not be affected. And I wouldn’t be forced to live in fear. But I have to think, that such comments will affect your own Muslim countrymen. And I cannot figure out why our Indian colleagues, on this site, still continue on their blunt and subtle religious slurs, without even taking into account the sensibilities of your own countrymen…………..
#183 Posted by ana on July 15, 2005 9:07:35 am
harimau:
did i miss something? where did my name come into all of this. oh, but then i looked and realized. i don`t read romair`s posts beyond the first paragraph. i stopped doing that a while ago. i still haven`t read that entire post. . .
so i`m still confused about what this list is all about. but oh well. . .
did i miss something? where did my name come into all of this. oh, but then i looked and realized. i don`t read romair`s posts beyond the first paragraph. i stopped doing that a while ago. i still haven`t read that entire post. . .
so i`m still confused about what this list is all about. but oh well. . .
#182 Posted by harimau on July 15, 2005 8:53:27 am
Ref ``Why-can`t-we-all-get-along``-Romair #175
[.......while you are permitted by the hegemons to not attend school and to keep your women barefoot, pregnant and in purdah.....]
The raw fact is that Hindus dominate India by sheer numbers. If India had enacted laws banning madrassahs, you would be crying foul. So I did say that the hegemons permit Indian Muslims to not attend school. We also permit them to keep their women in purdah, unlike Kemal Ataturk who banned it in Turkey.
Do you have a problem with a statement of facts?
[....Come on guys! Let us GIVE the Muslims what they WANT and MORE!....Any takers? Jawahara? Ana? _digit? Umbertoeco? Urstruly? Khamkhwa.? Ozerkhalid? Zafar Anjum? Dost-Mittar?......]
Well, add your name to the list. Tell us, would you agree that if Indian Muslims want Muslim Personal Law so that can marry 4 wives (at any given time) and divorce them without paying alimont -- all because some Arab customs dictate that -- why can`t they accept the rest of the Arab customs such as cutting off the hands of a Muslim thief?
What IS your stand on Muslim Personal Law? What is your stand on Sharia for criminal acts for Indian Muslims? Give us a straight answer.
[.......while you are permitted by the hegemons to not attend school and to keep your women barefoot, pregnant and in purdah.....]
The raw fact is that Hindus dominate India by sheer numbers. If India had enacted laws banning madrassahs, you would be crying foul. So I did say that the hegemons permit Indian Muslims to not attend school. We also permit them to keep their women in purdah, unlike Kemal Ataturk who banned it in Turkey.
Do you have a problem with a statement of facts?
[....Come on guys! Let us GIVE the Muslims what they WANT and MORE!....Any takers? Jawahara? Ana? _digit? Umbertoeco? Urstruly? Khamkhwa.? Ozerkhalid? Zafar Anjum? Dost-Mittar?......]
Well, add your name to the list. Tell us, would you agree that if Indian Muslims want Muslim Personal Law so that can marry 4 wives (at any given time) and divorce them without paying alimont -- all because some Arab customs dictate that -- why can`t they accept the rest of the Arab customs such as cutting off the hands of a Muslim thief?
What IS your stand on Muslim Personal Law? What is your stand on Sharia for criminal acts for Indian Muslims? Give us a straight answer.
#181 Posted by jawahara on July 15, 2005 8:35:34 am
Romair:
Well...I feel about them the same way I do about the Muslims on this board who condescend towards Indians Muslims they are sorry for them for living in India. Growing up in India, as a Muslim, there is no way not to interact with Hindus. They are our family friends, sometimes even members of our family, our best friends at school, our bosses and our servants, our neighbors. And some are dear to us, independent of their religion, and some are not. *shrugs*
If my only interaction with Hindus (or fellow Muslims for that matter) was on chowk perhaps I would feel differently perhaps. But to me the hatred-oozing Hindus are part of the whole spectrum of Hindus and indeed human beings. They make frustrate and anger me at a personal level but they cannot make me look at all Hindus as suspect.
I think ultimately I believe in the idea of India and I believe that religion is to be something personal and not to be bandied around and made to intrude in public life. Personally, as an Indian Muslim Woman, I feel the same fear around a bunch of saffron flag wavers as I do when I see a group of angry Muslims, with or without green flags. At different times i have been caught in the middle of both and it was f**ing scary. Someone like me, who questions religion and does not hold things religion (Islam or others) to be sacrosanct and set in stone, is likely to be hated in equal measures by both. And that`s okay with me.
Hope that answered your question.
Jawahara
Well...I feel about them the same way I do about the Muslims on this board who condescend towards Indians Muslims they are sorry for them for living in India. Growing up in India, as a Muslim, there is no way not to interact with Hindus. They are our family friends, sometimes even members of our family, our best friends at school, our bosses and our servants, our neighbors. And some are dear to us, independent of their religion, and some are not. *shrugs*
If my only interaction with Hindus (or fellow Muslims for that matter) was on chowk perhaps I would feel differently perhaps. But to me the hatred-oozing Hindus are part of the whole spectrum of Hindus and indeed human beings. They make frustrate and anger me at a personal level but they cannot make me look at all Hindus as suspect.
I think ultimately I believe in the idea of India and I believe that religion is to be something personal and not to be bandied around and made to intrude in public life. Personally, as an Indian Muslim Woman, I feel the same fear around a bunch of saffron flag wavers as I do when I see a group of angry Muslims, with or without green flags. At different times i have been caught in the middle of both and it was f**ing scary. Someone like me, who questions religion and does not hold things religion (Islam or others) to be sacrosanct and set in stone, is likely to be hated in equal measures by both. And that`s okay with me.
Hope that answered your question.
Jawahara
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