Being Imrana

Re: # 162 kaal

Yep - hindu liberals [and muslim liberals] have failed miserably. If there was ever a perfect example of ``road to hell is paved with good intentions`` - then you can see that in the actions of hindu liberals. Right from the beginning - they have been pandering to the worst elements of muslim community - all in name of community ``sensitivity``.

Abolition of MLP should have been a liberal agenda - But the liberals have been so foolish that it has ended up being an agenda of the RSS....... I mean - can you imagine a more absurd scenario - where RSS has ended up advocating what`s good for muslims?

The result has been disastrous, to say the least.

But fools never learn - so liberals will never learn. Now it`s upto the rest of the people - the right thinking people, no matter where they stand in the spectrum. Now, it`s upto rest of us to step upto the plate.

Re: # 163
What the heck is liberal in DesiLand?
Liberals and Conservatives are Goralogs terminology, they don`t work for us.

We just ape their definitions and apply on us to suit which ever direction we want to go.

This is very important..those adult male witnesses must be pious muslims by the way...kafeers dont count...

Guys..this is to clear the confusion....Zafar Al Talib and Zafar Anjum are different persons...Zafar Al Talib is a truly decent guy from Sydney while Zafar Anjum is currently baswed in Singapore and is of the opinion that ``A raped woman not able to produce 4 adult male witnesses to her rape is deemed to have had encouraged, or tempted, or otherwise facilitated her own rape.....

ana,

you are an over sensitive.........what happened to your liberal all lovey dovey and diversity thing, free speech blah blah........or is it just reserved for apologists and fundoos who shed croc tears? or it is always for other liberal/leftists that think like you- that is always the case...isn`t it?

Jawahara has put her finger on the nub of the issue. (Almost) all this resistance is premised on an understandable fear of handing the Hindu extremists a victory.

We ran into the same social hurdle in the case of Babri Masjid/Janambhoomi case. There seemed to be an underlying fear that if a compromise was made in one case, unforeseen and harmful consequences may follow.

So we should stop talking about individual cases which seem fairly irrational in themselves, and carry out a healthy, sympathetic, and detailed dialogue on the fear component. Both Hindus and Muslims have already lost a huge amount because fear naturally made, and still makes, reasonable things assume impossible proportions.

Re: # 156 kaal
//...all this resistance is premised on an understandable fear of handing the Hindu extremists a victory...//

On the otherhand, it will show to larger hindu community that Muslims are finally breaking out of the self-imposed shackle of mindless orthodoxy, that they are looking forward and upward, that things are finally changing for better.........That will generate a huge groundswell of goodwill and fellow-feeling and trust.

Such a changed scenario will ultimately lead to better communal relations .... and guess who will be the loosers in the bargain - it`s the Hindu extremists [and muslims extremist] of all stripes - because that will take the wind out of RSS propaganda machine ......

So Yes - in the beginning, RSS will certainly gloat over their so-called ``victory``, but that will be a pyrrhic victory - a ``victory`` that will ultimately lead to the demise of their agenda and their vitriol.

See - that`s why I have been urging people to look beyond the prejudice and the narrow vision. If you look beyond the the obvious conclusions, then you will see how things are going to work very differently and for benefit of all communities and the nation.

kaurasach:

my last post to you.

i refuse to be naive either. and i`m not.

but one word of advice to you: do not presume to tell me what is better for the world for me to do when you have no clue what i do. and i won`t tell you what to do anymore either.

and do not interact with me anymore. thank you.

kaal,

``But the village idiots did suggest the lady marry her rapist, and that idiotic suggestion did carry the imprint of some religion on it.``

...and? So long as there are sufficient opposing voices (and I mean EVERYONE other than the village idiots were pretty much united in wanting to see Imrana`s father-in-law be put to death) then everything IS in fact fine.

I would want to go a step further, and see the village idiots arrested. But then, in the end what could a court do? The village council`s rulings were never implemented, nor were they taken seriously by the villagers themselves. If a law is on book, though, then these people should be charged.

The matter with the village council is in fact done with.

As for the RSS, it is a case of a terd calling a skunk stinky. If anything, it exemplifies the political opportunism of certain parties, who do in fact have anti-Muslim agendas, that has hijacked the Imrana rape case for an unrelated matter.

The surrounding hysteria by the mainstream Indian media, despite the subsequent rapes of other Indians from different communities, is perhaps more akin to the line of reasoning employed by RSS and their ilk than not.

That is cause for concern. Dare I say, given the violent history of this group which has never been brought to justice, more so than Imrana`s suggested inability to stay married to her husband.

This is hardly defending Deboand`s position, or even the position of the village council.

Questioning the disproportionate hysteria against the suggested injustice by pointing out that some of the people who are in fact fanning the flames of communalism are people like the RSS is not at all out of line.

So now the question is, what are people really so upset about? It`s certainly not the rape case.

re #127 part of the problem is Urstruly’s definition of a muslim … they have to have cuffs of their shalwar halfway between ankles and knees, refuse to wear cologne (although use of itr is encouraged as sunnah), and are often seen carrying a lotta to workplace … yes, we are all non-muslims … albeit blissfully so …

…… he is a bit of a don quixote of chowk … imagining battles ... seeking glory … while suffering from untreatable case of delusion .…

Re: # 151 sattar

its not me, its your mai baap who called it a third world war in his recent state of the union address

mohar11,

Thanks for clearing that up. I mistakenly read your earlier posts as suggesting that identifying BJP opportunism over this case somehow aids their agenda...

Mohar 11:

``Jawahara sort of agrees with that - she may still have some reservations .... Actaully I am not sure what her position is. But anyway - that`s where the matter stands.``

Jeeze, I don`t know how I can make my position clearer. I think the MPL is not good for Muslims in India, especially for women and I am for the UCC. However, we cannot make these changes without coming up with a coherent strategy for how to deal (internally, within the Muslim community) with the fact that we will end up on the same side as the RSS/BJP. Personally, I would sideline them from the discussion but be ready that they will try to stake this as a major win for the Hindu Rashtra. And what we will need to do is to not engage in their rhetoric at all and think of this as a victory of a secular state. Is that clear yet? Just because I am able to own up to my prejudices and because I hate/distrust the BJP/RSS *does not* mean that something cannot be done about the MPL.

#147 Khare
``What is the BJP/RSS`s ``hidden`` agenda in bringing about UCC? Can Jawahara explain it? BJP (which has also Muslim members in it) wants to work with all religions together to evolve the UCC. So what is wrong with it? It has never said that it will be worked out by only Hindus.``

Touting BJP`s Muslim members is as good as when the Republican party in the US trots out its token black members. Some time later, as the BJP realizes that its partisan politics are not working out as well as they thought they might morph into a truly inclusive party. Till that happens I intend to not fall for their token Muslims. The RSS I don`t think will ever come to that stage.

What is their hidden agenda? It`s not really that well hidden. They believe that Muslims are pampered in India (similar rhetoric is used by extremist white supremacists about every minority in the US) and destroying the MPL will help them gain an upper hand. It will be a win for them. Psychologically that`s a big win for them. I don`t want the end of MPL to be laid on the altar of a Hindu Rashtra. I want it to be a victory of a secular India. And yes, that makes a huge difference because in the former there will be resentments and a feeling of loss. In the latter, there will be no losers, only victors and that makes a huge difference in making the change actually work.

#144 by harimau

I read your post but I am not going to dignify your ridiculous question with a response. If you`ve read my postings you know where I stand. If you refuse to see that then you really didn`t want a response anyway, just wanted to score a point.

Re: # 148 Jawahara

``However, we cannot make these changes without coming up with a coherent strategy for how to deal (internally, within the Muslim community) with the fact that we will end up on the same side as the RSS/BJP. ``

what nonsense is this. Do you take decisions based on where RSS/BJP stands?
So if BJP wants peace with Pak you will oppose it, just for the sake of opposition?

``Personally, I would sideline them from the discussion but be ready that they will try to stake this as a major win for the Hindu Rashtra.``

Another illogical statement, UCC is not based on hindu laws (if there are any) they are based on modern secular, democractic principles widely practised in the western world.

``And yes, that makes a huge difference because in the former there will be resentments and a feeling of loss.``

why don`t you add other laws like stoning, decapitating, rape etc also in IPL. and be happy over your ``victory`` over BJP/RSS.

fyi,
RSS/BJP will strongly advocate not to jump over the cliff, as you want to ``oppose`` them simply because what they stand for, do jump over.

Re: # 148

``Touting BJP`s Muslim members is as good as when the Republican party in the US trots out its token black members.``

I can`t believe this coming from Jawahara! Do you really think the whole Republican Party is racist? And all the black membes supporting it are plain stupid. Do you really think it is a very small number? On the same token, are all BJP ``token members`` that stupid? I think they are the smartest of all IM`s.. they have infilterated BJP and are bringing the party more to the center? Why not more IM`s doing it? Before you accuse of BJP being a ``not inlcusive`` party, you should ask the question how many muslims have tried joining it and making it better. During last election, even Bukhari of Jama Masjid suggested IM`s to consider BJP. But IM`s are very keen in joining the really racist communal Congress and/or any so called `secular`` party in India. Is it a secret? Look at how and on what basis tickets at each assembly/parliament location are selected by Congress and other ``secular`` parties. One of them ...from a ``recognized`` secular party ...wants to fight the election on the plank of ``we want to have a muslim as the chief minister of the state``. So long as IM`s do not let go their ``imagined`` prejudices ...(if it comes from you, I can`t think of common muslims in India).. it is never going to happen and you will never see ``truly inclusive`` BJP. Since BJP ALSO wants UCC, IM`s will never agree to it. Don`t you find this argument rather silly?

``What is their hidden agenda? It`s not really that well hidden. They believe that Muslims are pampered in India (similar rhetoric is used by extremist white supremacists about every minority in the US)....``

I think anyone in India can tell you that...yes they are being pampered. Politicians want votes and they will do anything to get the majority of that 15% vote bank, which will be the deciding factor in the election. That is why such stupid election manifestos. Muslim chief minister ... half day off for schools and offices on Friday ...5% reservatons for muslims in AP. AND these have worked before and they STILL work. If BJP objects to this, what is wrong with it? Just because it is BJP?

``... and destroying the MPL will help them gain an upper hand. It will be a win for them.``..

How exactly? Can you elaborate on that & explain what are the consequeces? I really fail to understand this. More than saying it will be a WIN for the IM`s leading to improvement in their lives, you appear to be more worried about ``their`` win. Just to deny them this ``potential pleasure``, you want IM`s sufferings to continue? What kind of ego/foolishness is this?

``Psychologically that`s a big win for them. I don`t want the end of MPL to be laid on the altar of a Hindu Rashtra.``

I think you have been out of India for too long. The modern generation does not know much nor do they care about the old RSS. They want to progress in life through developing and imbibing modern technology and are looking up to US and the west for doing this. If any thing, they are looking at IM`s as someone holding it back. But, if this continues, I can clearly see, after 2-3 decades, they might come to a realization that IM`s cannot be ever changed. Then I don`t see why they should not demand for a Hindu rashtra or a ``Non-muslim Rashtra``.

``....yes, that makes a huge difference because in the former there will be resentments and a feeling of loss. In the latter, there will be no losers, only victors and that makes a huge difference in making the change actually work....``

Great. The important question is: Will it ever happen? If person like Jawahara too have such arguments, I do not think India will achieve these goals peacefully. That is sad.

ana,

In the quest to appear humanist/rational/balanced/anthrocentic etc, persons like you make the mistake of not speaking in frank speech....when necessary.....which i did and was unwittingly dubbed as a hatemonger.

naive are exploited or taken advantage by the agenda pushers........i refuse to be that naive sheep.

instead of being microscopic and criticising my diction of using `them` `they` etc.

it will be better for the world if you use the same energy to confront the evil doers and their supporters (tacit or otherwise).