Being Imrana

Romair:

I have to hand it to you. You have done it again, namely, divert the topic of discussion to Hindus, Kashmir, India and whatever. Brilliant!

Dalit:

Please do narrate the story of love affair between Mahesh and Vishnu. This board is becoming too stressful and we need some amusement. Thanks in advance.

a few points to ponder:

i don`t visit other desi sites (this one has been a good deterrent not to), but on this thread, using a percentage of 75% for educated hindus here is an exaggeration. i have looked at those quotes time and time again, and either all of those are from one and the same person. . . or it is ten people (with some people possibly using the same nick). if there are ten indians here who make up 75% of chowk then there are much less indians participating on chowk than i thought.

we already know some of what these people represent. that these same people who are using these quotes, and most interactors on this site are not interested in scholarly debates of any kind. and that some of these people have incredibly extreme views when it comes to islam, and muslims. i don`t like what they say at all. . .or how they say it. but again, it seems foolish to attribute this to a large percentage of hindus on chowk when i have seen other hindus be critical of their own, particularly of some of those you have quoted, or distance themselves from them altogether.

what dostmittarji has referred to cannot be dismissed as simple naivete.

there are hindu indians on this site who are angry and frustrated, just as there are muslim indians about ``muslim`` attackers on their soil as well as those who attack muslims. this seems to get swept under the carpet much too often or dismissed without taking ``psychological`` factors into consideration. it is all well and good to focus just on the hindus here but why shouldn`t some question why there are educated muslims who are averse to a uniform code of laws? why shouldn`t one question the tenets of islam or any religion for that matter. why shouldn`t one question that if indeed muslims want to stick to ``personal laws`` then how far do they want to take that.

i don`t think the poster who uses terms as ``large-scale sickness`` for hindus pays much attention to what some of the pakistani muslims on this board have been saying about hindus. i don`t think he pays much attention to the reasons and rationalizations given to justify their ``hate``. no ``large-scale sickness`` there, no percentages given. like i said, it is far too easy to paint a large group of people with the same brush here. and doing that doesn`t solve or change anything for hindus or for muslims. it is to some degree escaping certain facts.

If all else fails then try to attack them from within.`Romair` is trying to divide us indians again.Why deny ourselves the pleasure of watching him fall flat on his face like his country, again??.

Kaalchakra #223: ``Is it possible that one could firmly hold that view and not be dripping with hatred toward Muslims?``

Let me ask you one question: I may agree or disagree with things in Hinduism. But why don`t I show that kind of bigotry and hatred against Pakistanis Hindus (or Hindus anywhere, for that matter)? Why don`t I put them tell them to ship off to India or deliberately abuse their religion? Please answer this question? I would be really interested in hearing your reply...........

One can firmly hold any view about anything that one wants. It`s a free world. It is up to them. Hold whatever view you want. No one is stopping you from that. But what is the point of using that in hatred, and that too against your own citizens. What kind of hatred is so important that one has to make one`s own countryfolk uncomfortable.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that the following is a firmly held view about any religion.....Is it a scholarly debate on the pluses and minuses of something.......Or is it outright frustrated pent-up oozing hatred of someone; including those in one`s own country...........If you are seriously going to tell me that you consider it nothing more than a, ``firmly held view`` about a religion, and not outright hatred of someone, then I am afraid you and I see the world quite differently

To me this sounds more like a Ku Klux Klan gathering, against one`s own citizens, than any kind of debate on views:

---

``Typical pak-muslim reaction.........your pedophile prophet (P be upon him)........ why dont you leave the Indian state and go to the Land Of The Pure ? Surely you will be happier there. And please take everybody with you.............If the, er, `author` who wrote this above here work of fiction gets thrown outta Singapore, where would he be heading to??.Mecca??.Medina??.harhar.......while you are permitted by the hegemons to not attend school and to keep your women barefoot, pregnant and in purdah.....Cloaked lies, agendas, conclusion, intentions.........what else to expect from a muslim......blame others, Jews, India`s state system........It wasn your/religious narrow mindedness, archaic, dark, inhuman teachings.....they just want kufrs to be unsuspecting of their intentions......till the kufrs are helpless........and easy to be converted....till then blame others for their own kanjarpana......... filthy liars.....I don`t go around savagely killing.......Muslims all over the world have only one agenda - assimilate non-muslims into Islam. Muslims themselves never assimilate into any society........ This is true of India.....Come on guys! Let us GIVE the Muslims what they WANT and MORE!....Any takers? Jawahara? Ana? _digit? Umbertoeco? Urstruly? Khamkhwa.? Ozerkhalid? Zafar Anjum? Dost-Mittar?......Usually the Muslim responses are one of the following:1) Other Religions also do it.2) You are misinterpreting the Quran. Under the ``correct`` translation it means exactly the opposite - ``love thy enemy``. 3) You are Quoting out of context.4) You obviously hate Muslims, therefore you must be wrong...... they are scared shi t of reprisals........what do they expect sewian and firni?.......they should thank their lucky stars that they live in civilized countries.otherwise, they would be boarding ships for Karachi by now..........Is this not something you would be upset about, or worry what religion these idiots are learning?.......``

As I stated, it does not affect me, because I know it cannot threaten me, in real life. I am safe and secure. But one does wonder at such large-scale sickness, if 75% of the educated inviduals, amongst a group, on this and various other threads, are carrying around such hatred, and that too agaisnt their own countryfolk.......

Romair

Are you open to any possibility that at least some Islamic assumptions and beliefs could be wrong and be actually very harmful to mankind?

Is it possible that one could firmly hold that view and not be dripping with hatred toward Muslims?

Re delhiwala (#168) …

Yes indeed, these jahil ullema have been obsessed with Ahmadis for over a century now … and have gone long ways in violently persecuting them. According to rumors spread by mullahs (some of which were confirmed by Urstruly), Ahmadis are conspiring with Jews to bring down Muslims … they conspired with the british … they are an international drug cartel and a ring of sex addicts …… and more ….

Our enlightened scholar, mullah Urstruly, once presented a fanciful theory …… that partition riots of 1947 were result of Ahamdi conspiracies. Here’s his reasoning …..

District Gurdaspur, which includes Qadian (birth place of Mirza Sahib), was initially given to Pakistan … but was switched to India in the last moment. This is historically correct as far as I know, but what follows is an example of Urstruly’s wild imagination. He attributed this switch to a conspiracy between the British and Chaudhry Zafrullah (an Ahmadi lawyer, who was working under Jinnah on partition issues) …… and that the discontent caused by this change was one of the main cause of partition riots, which started in Punjab, and spread to other parts of India.

Several times I asked Urstruly Sahib to reveal his sources. The closest he ever got was to refer to his discussions with “people who knew what was going on”. What the hell does this mean?, I still wonder. Beyond making vague comments, he could not cite a single source. He probably knows his sources are way too biased, in overt ways, to win the trust of anyone with half a brain (which implicitly gives away the maximum size of Urstruly’s brain).

As a result he still thinks that ummah’s obsession with Ahmadis and their violent persecution is justified. Where has this obsession gotten the ummah? … is far too complex of a question to be handled by someone of his intellect.

#211 by dost-mittar

“If you notice most of the virulent attackers of Islam have declared themselves to be atheists or agnostics.”

Hehehe…Declared themselves atheists or agnostics…This liar can vouch… he knows all HINDUS personally. Heheheh…

“Hindus do not take religion as seriously as Muslims or even Sikhs.”

Hehehehe… joker… Talk about love affair between Vishnu and Mahesh and we will know…Hehehehe…

Re: # 221 Dalit Let`s talk about the love affair between Mahesh and Vishnu first.

Romair:

It`s amusing to read your comments. Why do you think your religion or for that matter any religion is so sacred that no can question it.. I pointed out the hate speech in your ``holy document`` towards non-believers of Allah and Mr.Muhammad. You ignored it. What do you think the others should do. meekly accept it.. and think ``gees, allah has ordered his believers to kill us. we have to show the other cheek or bend down and show our necks``.

It`s really funny. You are free to quote from any other religious documents if you find it offensive to you..That`s what freedom of speech means. It`s sad that after living in a secular democracy for so many years you are still hesitant to start questioning and analysing ..

FYI: I was a staunch anti-Hindu (and still am, though to a lesser extent) until a couple of years ago.. I actually joined chowk to refute the stereotyping of lower caste Indians by a well known caste supremacist.. (Indians can recognise from my handle). After one of those terrorist incidents, I started reading Quran and the life-history of Muhammad. Anyone with a little bit of common sense can figure out Mr.Muhammad is the biggest fraud and he would be ROFL..ing all the time if he comes back to the earth now.. and look at the state of his believers..

Take it easy.. :-))

Dost-mittar #211: It`s good to see someone has addressed this, finally........

``If you notice most of the virulent attackers of Islam have declared themselves to be atheists or agnostics.``

Does that make a difference? Just a few replies back, someone declared them Christians.......I am not talking about attacking Islam. I am talking about attacking a fellow citizen, through their faith. The kinds of attacks Urstruly and Co. launch against Sattar2. But even their attacks, are fought through Quranic verses, to a great deal........The 75% brigade`s attacks are outright threats and plans to ship people off to Pakistan, etc.

``This is chowk where people derive pleasure out of seeing others squirm. And Hindian chowkies have discovered that the easiest way to rile Pakistanis is by needling them about their holy book and, especially, their prophet. Pakistanis have discovered, on the other hand, that the easiest way to provoke Hindians is to attack their country and its secular credentials.``

I think you are far too naive if you think this to be accurate. I don`t think it is a question of riling Pakistanis. Nor Indians. It that is all it was, one could write it off..........The question I asked was in context to Indian Muslims. Let`s accept the hatred of Islam, from Indians, if India did not have Muslims. Let`s consider it a by-product of the creation of Pakistan, in such a case. But India has so many Muslims. Much of the abuse is targeted towards them. Infact this article was an Indian Muslim issue.

This indicates the hatred is so strong that even one`s own countryfolk are considered dispensable and offendable.........

There is a huge difference between, ``needling,`` and outright hatred. The comments here are oozing with hatred.......As if someone is letting out a frustration.....There is a huge difference between hatred and debate, also. One can debate a religion, and agree to disagree. As wierd as I may find some of your beliefs regarding Islam, I don`t think you hate me, as a Muslim..........Your arguments are not oozing with frustrated pent-up anger.....They are just wierd, on occassion (in my opinion, at least)......I write them off to limited knowledge........

But I have yet to see any of the 75% or so, on this thread (and perhaps, site), debate relgion with anyone. I don`t think that is their aim. There is also a big difference between humorously discussing a religion (which many people do) and abusing a fellow citizen, because of his/her religion (which only sick people do)......

Please read Jawahara`s reply. I am not a mind reader, but does her reply indicate that she is enjoying the comments and is simply considering it humorous? I certainly didn`t get that sense from her reply. Is she merely, ``squirming,`` and laughing it off? IIs she just saying, O` these funny jokers, they are such good comedians? Or is there a serious concern, in her reply?

I will leave you to be the better judge of that...........

#213 by _digit on July 15, 2005 4:53pm PT


Wha?


Oh...so you don`t know...guess who posted this..

Black Tuesday: The View From Islamabad on September 17, 2001

Haven`t sent emails to my old military buddies for a while, so I don`t know whether they will respond now. But I will attempt to see whether I can get any latest info on what is going on inside the military planning circles, if anyone at Chowk is interested.

I do know the PAF is on alert. I think the US C-141s are going to start rolling in soon. I have a feeling the Pakistani pilots and army will assist and guide the US into Afghanistan, if it decides to carry out an invasion (even though the Pakistani govt. won`t admit it openly). There is no way the US soldiers can carry it out on their own. They don`t have the intelligence, they don`t know the terrain, can`t speak the language. Infact, they can barely pronouce the names of the cities.

I`ve trained with the Pakistanis, with Middle Easterners and with Americans. I will take the Pakistani soldier over any other soldier anyday (any soldier except for an Afghan soldier, that is).

Man, this is getting interesting. Information Technology suc/ */s as a profession. No glory. I wanna go back and put on the uniform.

Best wishes to any Pakistani soldier who will be involved in this, if it starts (I hope it doesn`t start, and I hope no one innoncent gets killed). I can`t speak for the many soldier-hating Pakistanis on this site, but my prayers are definitely with all of you brave guys.

And there was this gem

IMPORTANT:

---

Advice to all Pakistanis, Indians, Sri Lankans, Arabs and Muslims in general, in the USA: If you want to feel safe and not have anyone attack you on the street, wear a shirt with a Pakistani flag on it.

The funny thing is, he`s now in canuckistan and the US military is dropping bombs on paki territory...

digit sahib. . .

with all due respect, i have not been ignoring all the remarks posted on this thread. i read those. i didn`t say ``all`` now did i? i said a few, and i`m not referring to this thread alone

it has been far too convenient for certain hindus and muslims here to play the ``victim`` card.

have you broken out of your glass house yet?!

God 2.0? Is Tom Friedman for real? This guy writes as if his audience are 6th graders. His grasp on the issues is no better.

The focus on ``suicide`` aspect of suicide bombings is idiotic. Terrorism is terrorism, murder of civilians is just that. Who the hell cares if the terrorist dies in the act or not?

Tom Friendman wants to make a boogey man out of a scare crow, he doesn`t talk about real life. .

ana,

``with all due respect, a few of the indians lumped into hating muslims or bashing muslims have never said a hateful word about islam or muslims from what i can read.``

With all due respect, that`s most likely because you started to ignore the interactors posting said statements early on in this thread :-)

Here is the full article >>

A Poverty of Dignity and a Wealth of Rage

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
Published: July 15, 2005

A few years ago I was visiting Bahrain and sitting with friends in a fish restaurant when news appeared on an overhead TV about Muslim terrorists, men and women, who had taken hostages in Russia. What struck me, though, was the instinctive reaction of the Bahraini businessman sitting next to me, who muttered under his breath, ``Why are we in every story?`` The ``we`` in question was Muslims.


The answer to that question is one of the most important issues in geopolitics today: Why are young Sunni Muslim males, from London to Riyadh and Bali to Baghdad, so willing to blow up themselves and others in the name of their religion? Of course, not all Muslims are suicide bombers; it would be ludicrous to suggest that.

But virtually all suicide bombers, of late, have been Sunni Muslims. There are a lot of angry people in the world. Angry Mexicans. Angry Africans. Angry Norwegians. But the only ones who seem to feel entitled and motivated to kill themselves and totally innocent people, including other Muslims, over their anger are young Sunni radicals. What is going on?

Neither we nor the Muslim world can run away from this question any longer. This is especially true when it comes to people like Muhammad Bouyeri - a Dutch citizen of Moroccan origin who last year tracked down the Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh, a critic of Islamic intolerance, on an Amsterdam street, shot him 15 times and slit his throat with a butcher knife. He told a Dutch court on the final day of his trial on Tuesday: ``I take complete responsibility for my actions. I acted purely in the name of my religion.``

Clearly, several things are at work. One is that Europe is not a melting pot and has never adequately integrated its Muslim minorities, who, as The Financial Times put it, often find themselves ``cut off from their country, language and culture of origin`` without being assimilated into Europe, making them easy prey for peddlers of a new jihadist identity.

Also at work is Sunni Islam`s struggle with modernity. Islam has a long tradition of tolerating other religions, but only on the basis of the supremacy of Islam, not equality with Islam. Islam`s self-identity is that it is the authentic and ideal expression of monotheism. Muslims are raised with the view that Islam is God 3.0, Christianity is God 2.0, Judaism is God 1.0, and Hinduism is God 0.0.

Part of what seems to be going on with these young Muslim males is that they are, on the one hand, tempted by Western society, and ashamed of being tempted. On the other hand, they are humiliated by Western society because while Sunni Islamic civilization is supposed to be superior, its decision to ban the reform and reinterpretation of Islam since the 12th century has choked the spirit of innovation out of Muslim lands, and left the Islamic world less powerful, less economically developed, less technically advanced than God 2.0, 1.0 and 0.0.

``Some of these young Muslim men are tempted by a civilization they consider morally inferior, and they are humiliated by the fact that, while having been taught their faith is supreme, other civilizations seem to be doing much better,`` said Raymond Stock, the Cairo-based biographer and translator of Naguib Mahfouz. ``When the inner conflict becomes too great, some are turned by recruiters to seek the sick prestige of `martyrdom` by fighting the allegedly unjust occupation of Muslim lands and the `decadence` in our own.``

This is not about the poverty of money. This is about the poverty of dignity and the rage it can trigger.

One of the London bombers was married, with a young child and another on the way. I can understand, but never accept, suicide bombing in Iraq or Israel as part of a nationalist struggle. But when a British Muslim citizen, nurtured by that society, just indiscriminately blows up his neighbors and leaves behind a baby and pregnant wife, to me he has to be in the grip of a dangerous cult or preacher - dangerous to his faith community and to the world.

How does that happen? Britain`s Independent newspaper described one of the bombers, Hasib Hussain, as having recently undergone a sudden conversion ``from a British Asian who dressed in Western clothes to a religious teenager who wore Islamic garb and only stopped to say salaam to fellow Muslims.``

The secret of this story is in that conversion - and so is the crisis in Islam. The people and ideas that brought about that sudden conversion of Hasib Hussain and his pals - if not stopped by other Muslims - will end up converting every Muslim into a suspect and one of the world`s great religions into a cult of death.

arjun_m

``Wow...two pakis have the same delusions and victimhood complexes....stop the presses...``

Yeah, stop the presses...dumb ass can`t read.

I`m not Pakistani myself. My father was. My mother was Indian. I have but one citizenship, truth be told.

``Ask captain clueless what he felt about the imminent afghan invasion on Sept 13th, 2001..Betcha you didn`t know he was salivating to give up his point-of-sale representative job and drop the bombs on the afghans..especially when he thought joe sixpack would be falling at the feet of every paki in the US, speechless with gratitude...``

Wha?


``ut then, that leads us to the mode of thought that the Hindus we know are in fact much like the hate mongers here, but simply hide their hate in our presence.``

Read, arse...I said exactly the opposite. I`ve noticed that the Hindus I know in person are quite different than you lifeless saps...and that I`d never tarnish them with accusations of the kind of duplicity you`re accusing us of.

The rest of your diatribe has been ignored.