Idolizing the Koran

hamidm:

you are in fine form with gabby...keep them coming!

as for claims of `religion of peace`...arey bhai in history more mayhem and destruction has been cause in the name of god and religion...

why single out islam?...on second thoughts forget i asked;)

like most folks not `enlightened` enough to select or create their religion i was born into one and am trying to learn and live with it from within...

otoh i did try to lure you to purchase an area franchise of the one i was toying with...daGooders...the offer is still open...(it has no prophets, books, rituals, dogmas...just a basic creed to `do good` ... and the arbiter of that criterion is that individual`s conscience...this will work well with 99.9 % of us... am non-plussed about extending this invite to serial killers, rapists and such....their idea of good maybe a tad too violent for me)

the hijacking .......


gabby : allah mian, do you know that last religion you sent down to man on earth .....

allah: you mean, the one i sent down to joe smith in utah .......

gabby: ha, ha, very funny !......no, no, you know perfectly well that that idiocy was a farce perpetuated by a bunch of oversexed farmers who wanted to have as many wives as they had cows ........ i am talking about islam, the last and perfect religion we sent down to muhammad of mecca ........

allah: i know .... just kidding ...... so what happened to islam

gabby: it is being hijacked ! ........ i warned you about this when you were going about this business of sending me down with all kinds of conflicting messages without keeping track of the chronological order, and what preceeded what, and what was symbolic and what was for real .......... i told you that man was not smart enough to keep all that stuff straight without messing it up ............

allah: stop talking in riddles !.......you sound like that poet from toronto ......... just tell me what happend .........

gabby: well, first there was this matter of the goat eating six chapters and then there were those verses about zayd`s wife .........

allah: five chapters, not six ........ and we set that zayd thing straight by having imam abu hanifa and his cousin hambal explain it to the bedouin fools .....

gabby: jeez !...... okay, five ... and, just for the record, hambal was not imam hanifa`s cousin and , no, they did not clear up the mess because the muslims ended up with seventy sects ..........as a matter of fact, that guy hambal is responsible for creating the mess that the ummah finds itself in now - he was the original wahabi and is now the patron saint of osama bin ladin .............

allah: osama who? ......is he a mutazilite ? ....... i thought we destroyed them all and had their silly books burned and even had some of them beaten till they were blind ........ i thought the ummah was back on the straight and narrow .......

gabby: (shaking his wings in exasperation): allah mian, no, he is not a mutazilite, he is a wahabi who has hijacked your religion and is leading the people astray - he is making young men blow themselves up even though you have specifically forbidden suicide ...........

allah: ...... i have ? .........gabby, i am confused; i thought the mutazilites were leading the people astray and that is why we sent down imam ghazali .......... where did this osama guy come from .......and please stop calling me `mian` - you know it is a derogatory term that the horrible hindoos use for the true believers, don`t you?

gabby: for your sake, stop sweating the small stuff !.......... i tell you, this man osama and his followers have hijacked the religion and everyone is hopping mad at the muslims .........

allah: who ? ... the jews? .... i don`t care - they are a bunch of trouble makers themselves and i have half a mind to send them back to wander in the desert ......

gabby: but they have atv`s and gps now ....... see, what you made me do !....... this is serious and you think it is some kind of a joke ....... allah mian, i tell you, we have to do something to prevent this hijacking ..........

allah: so what do you want me to do ?....... you know i cannot send down another prophet because we said that muhammad was the last prophet and we can`t go back on our word ..... now, can we?

gabby: but can`t you send down someone - anyone, not a prophet - to find osama and put an end to this nonsense ....... you know that he is hiding in a cave near landi kotal and gets hot meals delivered every day from hamid gul`s kitchen ..........

allah: (with a smile and a wink) he does ?............ come here gabby, give me a hug ......... you worry too much ....... i have already taken care of this - i have karl rove on the case and he will stop this dastardly hijacking with a little help from that lovable munchkin, rummy ........ nobody can hijack anything .........

gabby: but then why are you distracting carl rove when he has to take care of this mess ..........

allah: i work in wonderous ways ................

temporal,

`` am disturbed and concerned with what happens in my religion…the hijacking of it by a vocal, vested, misinterpreting minority…``

....... i hear you and everyone else who is now proclaiming that islam is a religion of peace and the greatest thing since seedless medina dates ............ but have you ever considered the possibility that the people might have been hijacked by the religion ? ....... if we accept that possibility it might lead to meaningful reform instead of trite platitudes ........ just a thought ........

kaalchakra:

I am amazed at your interactions with temporal. As a long-time chowkie, you must know that he has never claimed his religion to be superior to others` and that he is a complete believer in tolerance -I don`t know if he would approve the word `acceptance` - of all faiths.

satyamvada:

To me there are several difference between Hinduism and Abrahmic religions, not jsut the concept of God.

When people say that all relgions are basically the same or similar, this can be true only wrt Abrahmic religions on the one side and the Indic faiths on the other; as far as the two systems, I see more contrast than similarities.

Yesterday, I went to someone`s new house for a havan ceremony and another difference hit me for the first time, and I am surprised that I did not observe it earier. Hindus generally pray to their God/gods for health, happiness, prosperity and to show them the right path and for peace for themselves and the whole world. In Islam, it is as if the Hindus` prayers have been answered by God and he has provided them in the qur`an an instructions manual for health, happiness, peace and prosperity and for relationship among people and communities.

temporal ji,

I have been attending a gurdwara for the last couple of months. I like the atmosphere there, and I love the bani, although I am just learning to get a hang of the cermonies. It`s an amazingly peaceful place. Never thought I would be able to sit through three-hour long sessions of religious discussions without getting bored. Just bought locally produced Jap Ji Sahib CDs. Five bucks a set!

With a couple of friends I have been discussing the basics of East Asian Buddhism. It`s fascinating, and I don`t think I fully understand it. The mindset there appears to be a great mix of the Chinese and Indian approches to life. I did not know, for instance, that female Buddhas were so popular in some of these parts, or even that Angkor vaat has been cared for by Buddhist monks, or the belief that through good action and by following the right path one could turn into a Buddha! What a beautiful concept for those willing to open their hearts to wisdom and goodness flowing in from every direction.

kaalchakra sahib:

may i ask one question?

…what religion or lack of religion do you subscribe to? as Ralph i recall you were an indian christian…as kaalchakra i read somewhere you proclaiming yourself a hindu…if you are a hindu …kis qis’m kay hindu ho? batao gay nahin?

as for me, let me volunteer...

i am a small ‘m’ muslim…not a shia, sunni or any other sect

rgds

t

---

digression on religion

my outlook on major world religions is that they all show their followers the same path… and even those who do not follow any organized religion as such…atheists, agnostics etc. subscribe to humanitarian values to the best of their abilities… these followers may chose to walk, ride, drive…

take driving as a metaphor...to reach a destination one can drive left, or right, drive standard, semi automatic or automatic…drive with the hood down, window open…lots of options…

as i have acknowledged earlier that in major religion the followers all tend to have more similar goals than dissimilar ones…

and as followers they select their mode

as a muslim…my preoccupation these days is not other practitioners…i am disturbed and concerned with what happens in my religion…the hijacking of it by a vocal, vested, misinterpreting minority…and in my one man jehad other world citizens and religions do not figure as much…some day...hope to rectify that...

chaliye, aapki marzi.

I do hope you do not believe that anyone prays ``to`` any stone. Only a complete dunderhead will believe that, and I have never held you to be one.

kaalchakra sahib:

we are not on the same page!

one of us has serious comprehension issues....enuff said...please refrain from twisting...i have no interest in playing your game ... smiley icon added...you go your way...till we are on the same page in future....same icon...


exhibit A
#73 by temporal on August 1, 2005 10:12am PT
#70:

You hold one such belief: that Islamic ``rituals of reverence`` are of very different nature and intent than is the ``worship`` of non Muslims. I don`t know if this belief is part of Islam itself or not, but even if it is, that does not become right.

(smiley icon:...there he goes putting words in my mouth)

i have written a few posts on chowk over the years...even a few articles...

show me one quote from there reflecting what you wrote above

also, i will add, provide the link!


exhibit B
#74 by kaalchakra on August 1, 2005 10:21am PT
temporal ji

Why go far? Kindly refer to # 31 and # 32.

Thanks.


Exhibit C
#32 by temporal on July 30, 2005 6:05pm PT
mr. shah:

such keh dooN aye b`rahmin gur tu bura na maaney...

re: worship

i worship my partner in crime M
i worship ghalib
i worship good articulation
i worship effective communication

and

i do not worship any stone..black or white

and

i do not pray to any of above...hope this helps!

Dost-mitter,

One other thing you want to tell your paki friends is that the `concept of God` in
the dharmic traditions (hindu, bouddha, jaina, sikh etc) are very different than
in the religions like islam, christianity and judaism.

temporal ji

Why go far? Kindly refer to # 31 and # 32.

Thanks.

#70:

You hold one such belief: that Islamic ``rituals of reverence`` are of very different nature and intent than is the ``worship`` of non Muslims. I don`t know if this belief is part of Islam itself or not, but even if it is, that does not become right.

(smiley icon:...there he goes putting words in my mouth)

i have written a few posts on chowk over the years...even a few articles...

show me one quote from there reflecting what you wrote above

also, i will add, provide the link!

hamidm2

Bombay was recently turned into Noah`s Ark. May be God punished us for worshipping stones and quadrupeds :(

al-lah’s connundrum ………


( the scene opens with al-lah and his favorite angel, gabriel, sitting around on cushions of fluffy clouds eating peyote pakoras and sipping heavenly nectar from al-lah’s favorite wine stream in jannah )

gabby (yawning and preening his wings with his semitic nose) : these nightly visits to the cave are killing me – why couldn’t you deliver this message in one big installment instead of leaking it out in bits and pieces …

al-lah: gabby, you complain too much ….. you know there a method to this madness; after all, I know everything and, trust me, it is for the best of mankind ............ and, in any case, you know that muhammad is not an educated man – he possibly couldn’t handle drinking from a fire hose and the people he leads also have a short attention span and are having a hard time getting the message even when i send it down in three line verses ……..

gabby: you mean they have adhd ?

al-lah: what is that ?

gabby (rolling his eyes): you don’t know everything do you ?

al-lah: don’t be a wiseass ….. anyway, you have to be careful with how you deliver my message; make sure there are no screwups like the last time when you gave people the impression that it was okay to worship manat and uzza – i have had to work overtime to come up with amendments and corrections to ……

gabby: aw c’mon ! that is not fair !...... you know it was your favorite angel, iblees, who intercepted and garbled up those verses …….. if you had listened to me and delivered the message in code instead of in Arabic we could have avoided the embarrassment .......... or at least keep the rascal locked up instead of letting him run loose in the the sands of saudi arabia while I am trying to do my job ………

al-lah: saudi arabia ?....... i think you better lay off the pakoras …….. you know I cannot interfere with free will – and iblees is part of that equation …………

gabby : sigh!...... but at least you could make sure that they transcribe the message the next day and put a dat-time stamp on it instead of carrying in around in their heads or writing it down on palm leaves and stone tablets …….. one of these days a goat is going to come along and eat a couple of chapters and all hell is going to break loose ……… at least, keep a backup copy of the original in the vault in case something horrible happens .............. by the way, how are the girls ?

al-lah: who?... manat and uzza? ............ they are fine, other than the usual growing up problems, you know ……. but really, i think you worry too much ................. i will make sure these people don’t mess up things like the jews and the christians before them who let the priests and other charlatans run amok with my word …… every time i think about it, it makes me want to send down another plague on those people !..... ingrates !

gabby: lighten up, for your sake !....... haven’t those people suffered enough already, wandering the desert for centuries with those long pointy noses …… by the way, why do I have to have this nose ?

al-lah: if it is good for my chosen people, it should be good enough for you …… besides, it looks good on you ………be thankful, I could have made you look like those horrible hindoos in hindoostan …………

gabby: yeah, what were you thinking when you made that big mess .......... do You know that a monkey – i think his name is hanuman - kidnapped their goddess and ran off to an island and they are all upset about it ………… when are we going to fix that ?

al-lah: (sighing) ...... i have given up on that bunch of kafirs! ….. they have defiled my name by worshiping stone idols and quadrupeds ........... maybe I should make it rain for forty days and forty nights to teach them a lesson ............

gabby: we have already done that with noah’s people ........... let’s come with something new: how about condemning them to seven cycles of reincarnation before letting them off the hook ….. imagine, a brahmin coming back as a jackass or a dalit code coolie to atone for his pompous ways …….

Al-lah: (looking at him affectiionatley) you are wicked ! .......... now get off your duff and take these verses down................ it is getting late and I don’t want to keep him waiting ………....

Gabby: can we change this “seal of the prophet’s “ to “ the last prophet” - you know, it could cause a lot of confusion in the future ………

Al-lah: just do what i tell you to do and stop trying to play the editor – stick to your job !

Gabby (muttering as he walks away): i am tired of being an errand boy ….....…i need to find another job ……

al-lah: what was that !...... i heard you !

temporal

Why blame the poor old allah (or even god or bag won) for our own shortcomings. We are responsible for our own words.

I will make my point as simply as I can.

The philosophy of ``live and let live`` works only when certain specific conditions are met. Those conditions are not met when some people firmly hold sacred beliefs that are not only completely wrongheaded but also extremely dangerous to the health and welfare of other people.

You hold one such belief: that Islamic ``rituals of reverence`` are of very different nature and intent than is the ``worship`` of non Muslims. I don`t know if this belief is part of Islam itself or not, but even if it is, that does not become right.

This one seemingly innocuous belief has brought untold misery to and discrimination against non Muslims in every country where your correligionists have grown stronger.

It is not enough then to sing and chant and dance the sufi dance when you defend the indefensible, and perpetrate the excreble.

In doing so, you as a condition of your participation, yourself, with deliberate intent, throw out the principle of `live and let live` out the window.

Liberals are supposed to look within. I invite you again to help fix the basic, fundamental problem. You, as a dedicated insider, will carry much greater credibility than I as an outsider do.

Re: # 64 Dost

Even though Islam as a code of life do permit certain cultural practices, but when these practices become in contrast with the system of values then they should be curbed and kept an eye on. So in my opinion, even though the practice of touching one`s parent`s or teachers` feet for reverence, is harmless and does not contrast any Islamic value, we must keep in our mind that we inherited it from our Hindu ancestors. Better yet, not to do it, since we have to follow the path of Holy Prophet (pbuh) which he set for us.

(caveat: long post)

second attempt

#62 by temporal on July 31, 2005 9:05pm PT
kaalchakra #57:

you say To you yours only if yours does not, uninvited, hurt mine, right?

i said in #56: respect and tolerate those different from yours

comprehendre?

forget others, just between us two, who is obsessed with the other`s faith?

did i ever question your faith directly, indirectly, obliquely or even in passing?

i don`t expect you to... but for the record if you ever answer this in all honesty, you will gain more insight into your own personal quest...

underlined added for further emphasis

after not making even a half hearted attempt to understand me you launch into another one of your posts…sigh…i will make one final attempt…and if this does not work for you and me so be it:)

That is the central tragedy, isn`t it? …You, a most liberal of people, want all the understanding in the world without inconveniencing yourself to understand a single thing about others.

jeez, after all the exchanges we are not even on the same page…i can think of only two reasons for that….1: i am unable to explain where i come from or 2: you have permanent blinkers on your eyes or are deliberately avoiding to see my stance!

forget labeling me…your assertion is utterly preposterous that i want ALL the understanding in the world without understanding a SINGLE thing about other world/s

let me spell out in hopefully simple English what i have been saying over the years: I believe in live and let live ... do you understand this concept?

with six billion plus inhabiting this world hindus, muslims, christians, jews, buddhitsts, animists, atheists, agnostics, zoroastrians…(not in any particular order) have a right to live and let live…in harmony, in peace, in tolerance, and while avoiding loss of innocent civilian lives…

You are eager to deny every thing that the rest of mankind sees you doing and hears you saying, but you do not wish to listen to basic explanations of other`s everydayday beliefs.

this claim is preposterous…all the more since you are talking to me one on one!....mankind?...have some fear!

what is that i deny?

what is it that is done by my co-religionists in the name of my religion that over the years i have not denounced more vociferously than many?

as for your second claim here that i do not wish to listen to basic explanations of other’s every day beliefs….this is another myth

there was a time when i did comparative religious studies…all major religions evolve pointing to good and away from bad…and majority of their subscribers retain these basic good instincts…peaceful co-existence

…speaking of my religion…it does not sanction suicide bombing…it does not sanction taking innocent civilian lives…and while i fight the battles with those vested interests who have hijacked my religion to justify their nefarious activities in its name…and

… and other more pressing issues of survival, interests, priorities and passions ….i lack time to do more comparative religious studies…but am sure also that the ‘troubles’ there (in other religions) is not caused by this neglect of mine…smiley icon added!

You lay claim to every bit of respect anybody could give you, but you will not learn the elementary meaning of the word ``respect`` when it is time to offer it to others.

in the still of the night please reflect on what blasphemy you have written here

if anything

i give respect
not demand it!

What more can I - and others like me - say, my good friend, than you and people like you do not behave so out of deliberate and planned ill will, but out of ignorance, and a very weak moral framework that keeps you from making any effort to examine your ignorance.

you have hit the nail on the head…inadvertently….there is so much truth in what you say here…i am ignorant and have a very weak moral framework…but…

but for the same reason i try harder…to overcome these weaknesses

this has been a long post…and hopefully this will not go in vain…hopefully…but am not so sure…Allah knows best!

rgds

t