Idolizing the Koran

Re: # 64 Dost

Even though Islam as a code of life do permit certain cultural practices, but when these practices become in contrast with the system of values then they should be curbed and kept an eye on. So in my opinion, even though the practice of touching one`s parent`s or teachers` feet for reverence, is harmless and does not contrast any Islamic value, we must keep in our mind that we inherited it from our Hindu ancestors. Better yet, not to do it, since we have to follow the path of Holy Prophet (pbuh) which he set for us.

#61 by Raw_Dust
Dear Raw Dust,

The gibbersish you wrote I am having difficulty to understand. There is no sarcasm, satire, parody in what you quote. If there is any I am having difficulty in seeing it.

Only thing funny is your sincerety.

Can you please explain what is the meaning of ``Sadaq Allah ul Azeem`` ?

Anybody on this board who wants to lampoon some aspect of Islam or prophet (PBUH).

kaalchakra #57:

you say To you yours only if yours does not, uninvited, hurt mine, right?

i said in #56: respect and tolerate those different from yours

comprehendre?

forget others, just between us two, who is obsessed with the other`s faith?

did i ever question your faith directly, indirectly, obliquely or even in passing?

i don`t expect you to... but for the record if you ever answer this in all honesty, you will gain more insight into your own personal quest...

good night,

t

arstoo sahib:
whats with parodies? Quran IMO happens to have some of the best lines - a sort of a neat narrative device, a paody Onto itself. So before, i go Worship Yuengling, let me recite a Chapter, Kaallchakra please pay heed. Very pertinent to our little two bit bakwas over the nuances of Worship vs. Prayer . Beautiful, Boolean and Bold in its addressing specifically Us, the Kafiroons. Here, it is:




AL-KAFIROON (THE DISBELIEVERS, ATHEISTS)

Total Verses: 6
Revealed At: MAKKA


In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

109.001
YUSUFALI: Say : O ye that reject Faith!
PICKTHAL: Say: O disbelievers!
SHAKIR: Say: O unbelievers!

109.002
YUSUFALI: I worship not that which ye worship,
PICKTHAL: I worship not that which ye worship;
SHAKIR: I do not serve that which you serve,

109.003
YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
PICKTHAL: Nor worship ye that which I worship.
SHAKIR: Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:

109.004
YUSUFALI: And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
PICKTHAL: And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
SHAKIR: Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,

109.005
YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
PICKTHAL: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
SHAKIR: Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:

109.006
YUSUFALI: To you be your Way, and to me mine.
PICKTHAL: Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
SHAKIR: You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.



Sadaq Allah ul Azeem

Re: # 61
...and the point is... aethism is better than islam...right...?

stinger:

the slobbering of the cross as kaalchakra put it is not to worship the wood, but in reverence of that one cross that christ was crucified on. i, myself have slobbered on that cross, so i know a little of what that is about.

of course representations of that one cross have accompanied horrifying events such as the crusades, the inquisition, and crosses are still burned by that white christian group that calls itself the ku klux klan in the lawns of blacks, jews and anyone who they feel deserves a cross burning, so go figure. . . one slobbers, or goes about killing.

Dear Friends,

In this board many people have sugested that every body should show respect to Kuran or prophet.

But I think that many people are showing too much respect.

It is high time that people shoul laugh, ridicule, lampoon, caricature, parody the most sacrosanct beliefs. If a belief system can not with stand the test of ridcule or lampooning then it reaky has some propblem.

As a child growing up, the first thing we use to do was make parodies of hindu gods and godess`s eg.

Dandak van pahunchay Ragu Rai,
Peechay Lachman beedee sulgai,
Bolay Ram suno priyay bhraata,
Tel bina andar nahi jaatta.

Or

Ram says to Sita
Ghannan ghannan ghan ghor andhera,
Dhoti andar farkat mora.

Sita replies
Suno Nath tum se kya chori,
Dhoti andar farkat more.

But this type stupid parodies did not har my faith in Hinduism in any way instead it has strengthen it.

I will now request my Muslim friends to write some pariodies about Prophet. Or If they request me I can give them a helping hand

temporal

There is a wrong belief among some, IMHO, that while Muslims carry out `rituals of reverence` (R o` R), the rest `worship.`

This has caused huge problems historically, and the world over.

Let`s work together to remove this grave and dangerous misunderstanding, not reinforce it, not attempt to save it.

---

To you yours only if yours does not, uninvited, hurt mine, right?


Must go now. I will be honored to continue learning from you and stinger_kh tomorrow.

#55:

jhoota kaun

jo oosnay kaha
dil sey laga ker rakhtay ho mujhay
jhootay kaheeN kay!

tou pichli jaib say
leather wallet nikal ker
dikha di oos ki tasveer
maiN nay

---

digression:

stop all this postulation friend...be true to your calling

respect and tolerate those different from yours

remember our efforts to formulate our declaration to live and let live?....to you yours, to me mine...and the first step is renunciation of use of force against civilians...

stinger_kh,

Sure, if that will make this conversation easier, I will say anything about God.

He/She/It exists. I don`t know too much about Him/Her/It. Certainly not much that I can be sure of. Certainly I am not so sure of my knowledge that I fight over my beliefs about God with a good person like you.

The True He/She/It must be simply too Grand for my limited human abilities to completely comprehend.

What Self-Respecting God would agree to be confined into my little brain? :(

At my most ambitious, I hope to understand merely a little of Him/Her/It. You might know a great deal more, but probably not ALL.

We should pool our knowledge. Even then the chances of our fully figuring out that Creator of Creators will be small.

---

About Christians, only they can explain what all that slobbering means. The same thing with Muslims when they kiss various objects.

In my younger days, when I had just enticed my first girl friends, I used to carry their pictures in my wallet.

Now, the pictures are gone, and so has the kissing :( :(

Thought-provoking...

“It is not lawful for you (to marry other) women after this, nor to change them for other wives even though their beauty attracts you, except those (captives or slaves) whom your right hand possesses. And Allah is Ever a Watcher over all things.” Surah 33:52

AlephNull:
``The attempt by the human author(s) of the Quran to purge Christianity of obvious ‘irrationality’ and ‘idolatry’ by, for instance decreeing that Christ was a Prophet and not the Son of God, would then be a consequence of misunderstanding and misplaced concreteness. ``

The author(s) of Quran-ul-Hakeem werent too bright, check this out another factual error:

---

009.030
YUSUFALI: The Jews call `Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah`s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
PICKTHAL: And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!
SHAKIR: And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!




Please, notice the phrase: ``these are the words of their mouths;`` this means to refer presumably Jews` mouths but who is the receptor of these words? and what specific tribe of Jewish people is He talking about one from Medina? Jerusalem???? sounds like the case of shifty narrators to me.

---

kaalchakra:
i think dost-mittar provided the precise difference between worship and prayer.

Re: # 51 Raw Dust

I would like to show you some back ground of the verse 9:30 (Repentance:30), since it explains not only the relationship of Islam with that of Judaism and Christianity but also explains the reasons why Islam was introduced after all: The verse is quoted as:

(Repentance, 9:30): ``The Jews call `Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah`s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! ``

The background of this verse is that Jewish faith as it was introduced by Moses (pbuh) went into decline after King Solomon (pbuh) after various attacks from outsiders and especially during their subjugation by Assyrians they lost the basic tennents of their faith. As the history goes, Moses entrusted Levys (one tribe of Jews) as the custodians of the Holy text of Torah; during attacks Levys hid the holy tablets and their subsequent generations completely forgot where the text was hidden. Historians put this situation in the timeframe of 100 years, while Jewish people remained oblivious of where the text was. Another tribe named Cohens were entrusted by Moses (pbuh) to provide the religious leadreship to the Jewish people. Since refernce text went missing, Cohens started decreeing on their own discretion and altered the text. Years later Ezra (pbuh) was sent as Prophet who revived the religion and thus he is reverred by Jews. This revernce exceeded its limits and Jews started calling Ezra `son of God`. Once again Cohens were behind this, and even though they had the text, the used their on descretion as they used to do in past and declared Ezra as `son of God`. This is what Qura`n refers to as ``they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. `` in 9:30. Similarly, Bible never declared Jesus (pbuh) as `son of God` but this addition was made a couple of centuries later. Keep in mind that Bible was collated after approx. 90 years of Jesus Christ`s (pbuh) assencenssion to heavens.

So when Qura`n says that ``That is a saying from their mouth``, it is in fact paraphrasing Allah Who says that Jwish claim of Ezra and Christian claims of Jesus as sons of God are the words from the mouths of Jewish and Christian priests and not Ours.

It is further explained in the next verse Repentence, 9:31 ``They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)``.

There is a Hadith associated with this verse that explains its meaning. Once a Christian named Adi Ben Tai, who later converted to Islam and demanded an explanation of this verse (while saying that we Christians do not consider our priests as gods). Holy Prophet (pbuh) said that this verse means that there are priests who (``create`` new beleifs) making what is Haram (forbidden) as Halal (permissible) and vice versa., when they do not have any refernece from their books. (And those Christians and Jews who follow such preists unknowingly place them in the place of what is reserved for Allah; He is the Only One who can dictate what to Believe)


This is what is happening even today. There are many traditional Christian sects who are not only practicing homosexuality but also promoting it as well as if it was divine manadate, while both Old and New Testaments (Torah & Bible) strictly forbid the practice. So those Christians who follow such priests, are in fact send God to the backseat and putting these prietss in His place even though they won`t admitt it.

However, the narrator of this explanation (which in this case is Abu al a`la Moududi) emphasis that not all Christians and Jews accept and follow such practices. Qura`n testifies one Christian sect to be on righteous path which are Sabians, an orthodox Christian sect, who used to live in the present day Iraq area, during the time of Holy Prophet. They are probably extinct now.

Urstruly, dost-mittar

Urstruly does deserve one`s thanks/recognition/gratitude for at least trying to think.

I would still request others to please volunteer to us what they have been told is the difference between their own rituals of reverence and other people`s worshipping.

Simon hinted that this is one thing that everyone - supposedly every man, woman, and child - * knows *.

Urstruly (various)

Your attempts to make a distinction between reverence and worship through various definitions of idolatory and ``iconoclatory`` had my head spinning; I wonder how an illiterate Allah Rakha has no such problem.

How could the Prophet make rules about how to treat the book which had not yet been written and, maybe, not even envisaged (wasn`t it Hazrat Omar who decided to compile it in a book form?), not to speak of his doing so for printed versions centuries before Gutenberg?

On adoption, I know for a fact that Canada`s Immigration Office used to reject all applications for sponsorship by Indo-Canadian Muslims as invalid as it was against Muslim practice. And I believe, Ajeya is right in suggesting that the Prophet made adoptions illegal after he wanted to marry someone who his adopted son had married.

Kaalchakra:
Here are some ``operational`` definitions:

- If you bow your head before the portrait of a man, that is worship; if I cut your head off for mentioning some unmentionables about that man or maybe even keeping his portrait, it is simply my reverence for the man.

- I am merely following some prescribed rules when I pray facing in the direction of a stone, you worship your ``butts`` in your ``butt-khana``.