Idolizing the Koran

Urstruly (various)

Your attempts to make a distinction between reverence and worship through various definitions of idolatory and ``iconoclatory`` had my head spinning; I wonder how an illiterate Allah Rakha has no such problem.

How could the Prophet make rules about how to treat the book which had not yet been written and, maybe, not even envisaged (wasn`t it Hazrat Omar who decided to compile it in a book form?), not to speak of his doing so for printed versions centuries before Gutenberg?

On adoption, I know for a fact that Canada`s Immigration Office used to reject all applications for sponsorship by Indo-Canadian Muslims as invalid as it was against Muslim practice. And I believe, Ajeya is right in suggesting that the Prophet made adoptions illegal after he wanted to marry someone who his adopted son had married.

Kaalchakra:
Here are some ``operational`` definitions:

- If you bow your head before the portrait of a man, that is worship; if I cut your head off for mentioning some unmentionables about that man or maybe even keeping his portrait, it is simply my reverence for the man.

- I am merely following some prescribed rules when I pray facing in the direction of a stone, you worship your ``butts`` in your ``butt-khana``.

Urstruly, dost-mittar

Urstruly does deserve one`s thanks/recognition/gratitude for at least trying to think.

I would still request others to please volunteer to us what they have been told is the difference between their own rituals of reverence and other people`s worshipping.

Simon hinted that this is one thing that everyone - supposedly every man, woman, and child - * knows *.

AlephNull:
``The attempt by the human author(s) of the Quran to purge Christianity of obvious ‘irrationality’ and ‘idolatry’ by, for instance decreeing that Christ was a Prophet and not the Son of God, would then be a consequence of misunderstanding and misplaced concreteness. ``

The author(s) of Quran-ul-Hakeem werent too bright, check this out another factual error:

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009.030
YUSUFALI: The Jews call `Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah`s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
PICKTHAL: And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!
SHAKIR: And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!




Please, notice the phrase: ``these are the words of their mouths;`` this means to refer presumably Jews` mouths but who is the receptor of these words? and what specific tribe of Jewish people is He talking about one from Medina? Jerusalem???? sounds like the case of shifty narrators to me.

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kaalchakra:
i think dost-mittar provided the precise difference between worship and prayer.

“It is not lawful for you (to marry other) women after this, nor to change them for other wives even though their beauty attracts you, except those (captives or slaves) whom your right hand possesses. And Allah is Ever a Watcher over all things.” Surah 33:52

Thought-provoking...

Re: # 43
Yesturday i asked u some thing about GOD existence u fail me to answer by just saying that GOD exist. Let me continue with the worship issue of Parsis i came upwith following points. ``Zoroastrians regard fire as a pure creation, and thus fire became the symbol of Zoroastrianism much as the cross is the symbol of Christianity. Many Zoroastrian rites take place within fire temples. A holy fire is kept constantly burning.`` I see chiristans kissing there crossbar everyday so what is that u tell me.

stinger_kh,

Sure, if that will make this conversation easier, I will say anything about God.

He/She/It exists. I don`t know too much about Him/Her/It. Certainly not much that I can be sure of. Certainly I am not so sure of my knowledge that I fight over my beliefs about God with a good person like you.

The True He/She/It must be simply too Grand for my limited human abilities to completely comprehend.

What Self-Respecting God would agree to be confined into my little brain? :(

At my most ambitious, I hope to understand merely a little of Him/Her/It. You might know a great deal more, but probably not ALL.

We should pool our knowledge. Even then the chances of our fully figuring out that Creator of Creators will be small.

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About Christians, only they can explain what all that slobbering means. The same thing with Muslims when they kiss various objects.

In my younger days, when I had just enticed my first girl friends, I used to carry their pictures in my wallet.

Now, the pictures are gone, and so has the kissing :( :(

#55:

jhoota kaun

jo oosnay kaha
dil sey laga ker rakhtay ho mujhay
jhootay kaheeN kay!

tou pichli jaib say
leather wallet nikal ker
dikha di oos ki tasveer
maiN nay

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digression:

stop all this postulation friend...be true to your calling

respect and tolerate those different from yours

remember our efforts to formulate our declaration to live and let live?....to you yours, to me mine...and the first step is renunciation of use of force against civilians...

temporal

There is a wrong belief among some, IMHO, that while Muslims carry out `rituals of reverence` (R o` R), the rest `worship.`

This has caused huge problems historically, and the world over.

Let`s work together to remove this grave and dangerous misunderstanding, not reinforce it, not attempt to save it.

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To you yours only if yours does not, uninvited, hurt mine, right?


Must go now. I will be honored to continue learning from you and stinger_kh tomorrow.

Dear Friends,

In this board many people have sugested that every body should show respect to Kuran or prophet.

But I think that many people are showing too much respect.

It is high time that people shoul laugh, ridicule, lampoon, caricature, parody the most sacrosanct beliefs. If a belief system can not with stand the test of ridcule or lampooning then it reaky has some propblem.

As a child growing up, the first thing we use to do was make parodies of hindu gods and godess`s eg.

Dandak van pahunchay Ragu Rai,
Peechay Lachman beedee sulgai,
Bolay Ram suno priyay bhraata,
Tel bina andar nahi jaatta.

Or

Ram says to Sita
Ghannan ghannan ghan ghor andhera,
Dhoti andar farkat mora.

Sita replies
Suno Nath tum se kya chori,
Dhoti andar farkat more.

But this type stupid parodies did not har my faith in Hinduism in any way instead it has strengthen it.

I will now request my Muslim friends to write some pariodies about Prophet. Or If they request me I can give them a helping hand

stinger:

the slobbering of the cross as kaalchakra put it is not to worship the wood, but in reverence of that one cross that christ was crucified on. i, myself have slobbered on that cross, so i know a little of what that is about.

of course representations of that one cross have accompanied horrifying events such as the crusades, the inquisition, and crosses are still burned by that white christian group that calls itself the ku klux klan in the lawns of blacks, jews and anyone who they feel deserves a cross burning, so go figure. . . one slobbers, or goes about killing.

Re: # 49 Dost:

Why? My point of view is very clear. There are three levels at which an individual makes a `positive` connection with another entity - be it a deity, an icon, a person, or a book.

The first level of connection is that of Reverence. Allah and his Prophet (pbuh) have set the limits for the reverence with a special instruction that we must always follow the middle path. The degree of reverence to ones parents, teachers, holy books, mosques, to Prophet and to God himself are well defined and it has access to every one. The moulanas in villages in every sermon on Friday empahsis on these limits very well and a regular Allah Rakha knows his limkits very well. But the very Allah Rakha may be misled by his religious leaders as well. The worship of graves and using Qura`n as Taa`weez are the practices that people with week faith have started for their worldly benfits.

When these limits are transgressed the simple reverence first corrupts into iconolatry. For example, just before before Muhammad ibn-Abd-al-Wahab (1703–1792), who is the founder of Wahabi sect, Muslims of Arabia almost started worshipping a tree under which the Hudaibiya pact was signed by Holy Prophet (pbuh). The gravesite in Medina called Janat-ul-Baqi, which contains the graves of the companions and family members of Holy prophet and various other honorable personalities in Islamic history are burried became shrines, and people started pagan rituals over there which Holy Prophet speciifically forbade. The world of Islam should be greatly indebted to Wahab for taking a stand against these vile practices and for eradicating from the land on which once Holy prophet walked upon.

The idolatry is the furthr corruption of the iconolatry. These are the outright practices of Shirk that I have explained in my last post.

So you see how a simple practice of reverence if kept unchecked turns into iconolatry and outright idolatry. That is why every day of a Muslim is a day of Jihad, to keep on righteous path, and keep his flock on the righteous path as well.


2. It is a common misconception that Qura`n in the written form did not exist in written form prior to the third caliph. The truth of the matter is that Holy Prophet (pbuh) himself permitted both the penning of his ahadith and also the Qura`n. He himself organized the sequence of verses in Qura`n. That is the reason the very first verses of revelation are in the 30th , the last chapter of the book, whereas, the second Chapter of the Holy book (The Heifer) was reveled in the 10th-12th year of his Prophethood. But keep in mind that during Holy Prophet times the complete Qura`n existed only in the memory of his companions whom were taught by Prophet himself to memorize. It shouldn`t raise any eyebrows, because even today 10-12 year old children can memorize this book and there are millions of Hafiz around the globe. This is the living miracle of this book. At the time of Holy Prophet there also existed parchments and tree barks and clay tablets upon which some of the text was written. First time Muslims felt that this text should be collated in a book and saved in the book form was when the second Caliph sent a Jihad expedition against the false Prophet Mussailma the Liar and in that expedition some 2000+ Hafiz fell martyr.

arstoo sahib:
whats with parodies? Quran IMO happens to have some of the best lines - a sort of a neat narrative device, a paody Onto itself. So before, i go Worship Yuengling, let me recite a Chapter, Kaallchakra please pay heed. Very pertinent to our little two bit bakwas over the nuances of Worship vs. Prayer . Beautiful, Boolean and Bold in its addressing specifically Us, the Kafiroons. Here, it is:




AL-KAFIROON (THE DISBELIEVERS, ATHEISTS)

Total Verses: 6
Revealed At: MAKKA


In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

109.001
YUSUFALI: Say : O ye that reject Faith!
PICKTHAL: Say: O disbelievers!
SHAKIR: Say: O unbelievers!

109.002
YUSUFALI: I worship not that which ye worship,
PICKTHAL: I worship not that which ye worship;
SHAKIR: I do not serve that which you serve,

109.003
YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
PICKTHAL: Nor worship ye that which I worship.
SHAKIR: Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:

109.004
YUSUFALI: And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
PICKTHAL: And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
SHAKIR: Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,

109.005
YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
PICKTHAL: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
SHAKIR: Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:

109.006
YUSUFALI: To you be your Way, and to me mine.
PICKTHAL: Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
SHAKIR: You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.



Sadaq Allah ul Azeem

kaalchakra #57:

you say To you yours only if yours does not, uninvited, hurt mine, right?

i said in #56: respect and tolerate those different from yours

comprehendre?

forget others, just between us two, who is obsessed with the other`s faith?

did i ever question your faith directly, indirectly, obliquely or even in passing?

i don`t expect you to... but for the record if you ever answer this in all honesty, you will gain more insight into your own personal quest...

good night,

t

#61 by Raw_Dust
Dear Raw Dust,

The gibbersish you wrote I am having difficulty to understand. There is no sarcasm, satire, parody in what you quote. If there is any I am having difficulty in seeing it.

Only thing funny is your sincerety.

Can you please explain what is the meaning of ``Sadaq Allah ul Azeem`` ?

Anybody on this board who wants to lampoon some aspect of Islam or prophet (PBUH).

Urstruly#60:

Thanks for your elaboration. Actually, underneath apparent differences, we are more or less on the same page. It`s a continuum from respect to reverence to worship and it is difficult to make sharp distinctions, other than making some rough and ready rules, like not bowing before a statue or praying at the graves, etc. In your father`s time, most Punjabi muslims touched the feet of their elders just like their hindu counterparts, a practice which has now been discontinued in Pakistan (except, perhaps in Sindh); however, it does not mean that Punjabi Muslims were earlier worshipping their elders. Since you are familiar with Bollywood, you have probably noticed how many Hindu junior actors would touch the feet and seek the blessings of seniors like Dilip Kumar (Yusuf Khan) at award functions or Muslim actors doing the same to the senior Hindu actors; this is not one ``kanjar`` worshipping another but a simple sign of respect.

I am aware of the history of the compilation of the qur`an. The point I was making was that the Prophet may have prescribed some rules on respecting the message but not about a book which had yet to be compiled; that had to be in the realm of qiyas.