Idolizing the Koran

Athar

Is this a reversal from Arthur...

We your friends ... you know the other one the Barrister ... always thought you would return from the other extreme to become a mainstream reformist working from within rather than from without...

This is a great article.. reformist... progressive... and yet not blasphemous.

I think this approach will go farther than your earlier ones...

There is a certain etiquette which Islam requires of us when we read/touch/listen to the Qur`an Sharif. This is not misplaced zeal, it is following the injunctions of the Qur`an itself and the Sunnah.

The Qur`an is the Uncreated Word of Allah not just a book.

Nice article with good arguements. However I feel that there is nothing wrong with idol worship as long as the worshiper knows that it is a symbol. Many of us because of our limited undestanding cannot imagine or visualize an all prevading eternal god.

We find it easier to pray to a symbol, and if reverence towards a book can bring out the better things within us, maybe it will extend to other areas in life too.

However every religion must have the space for people to periodically question the belief system within it, and shutting of inquiry by saying that since its god word, it cannot be questioned is pure rubbish.

Athar:

is this a change of heart?... and can I read something in the way you spelt it?

qur’an is just a book of guidance….read again, qur’an is just a book …just a book….just a book…just a book…

also

* it makes no mention of suicide bombing being halaal
* it does not tell me how to adjust the time on my dvd/vcr
* it does tell me to be tolerant
* and advises me to use my deliberative mechanics
* and not to hate others, be respectful and just

temporal,

will you do us Kafirs a favor and make copies of your version of quran and distribute a billion or so copies.

Humans have evolved to appreciate and `worship` imagery.........that is why the adherents of bland monotheistic religions are attracted (maligning at the same time) to Hindu, Budhist philosphies. Or, much to the dismay of puritans, ``distorting`` their own religion. The adorations calligraphy of Islamic culture is no different from idol adorations of the temples.

Even the liberal sikhs cannot abstain from picture worship of Gurus.

In the end, Hinduism and its like triumph bcs they are closer to our instincts.....yet the idol woshiping in extreme form is harmful - though not as harmful as extreme version of Islam and Chrstnty.

The author’s intentions appear to be good – to get the followers of Islam to focus more on the meaning behind words rather than the printed media and other externalities of the Koran.

The article falls short on two important points – the point about developing a tolerance for others’ point of view – a shortcoming which (in my view) is responsible for many of the problems the followers of this faith currently face. And the second (perhaps more important) point is about being able to question your own beliefs occasionally to validate them – rather than unquestionably accept what one is told from a single source! Without addressing these two, those problems are unlikely to go away!

Incidentally, many of the arguments presented here regarding the Koran can be applied to other holy books – of any religion!

Will return to read the article, but have always maintained that ironically Muslims are truest and most obdurate, perhaps the only remaining, idol worshippers on the face of our planet.

athar:

I agree that the message of the quran is more important than the writing. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts or at least should be. I also agree that the formality ultimately makes for less reading and more...well...formalizing. And you’ve written quite well to construe this idea.

However, I’m not sure I would be so quick to classify all idolatry under misguided religious zeal. Sometimes worshipping the idol is just that and nothing more, and serves to bring one closer to the object of ultimate devotion.

I would conjecture that many of us have idols, which extend far beyond the religious realm.

kaalchakra saheb:

... have always maintained that ironically Muslims are truest and most obdurate, perhaps the only remaining, idol worshippers on the face of our planet...

i almost choked...does your planet have only 1.2 or 1.5 billion people;)

or you are playing with history, logic and numbers?

waisay a digression:

i have written somewhere that Muhammed (saw) cleared mecca of 360 idols and some muslims from subsequent generations have managed to turn that Ka`aba into one big idol...(by placing an inordinate emphasis on rituals and minimising the simple purity of the message)

rgds

t

Halleluja!

What is this? A christian evangalist religious nut whose anti-Muslim hatered verges on the brink of insanity is teaching us the virtues of Wahabism? I say there is a God after all. Halleluja!

Shiraz

What is this? Have you become a Mullah, albiet, enlightened? Do you want Muslims to become `ahle- kitab`. They would remain `Ummies` and won’t use their ‘aql’ (reason) despite claiming to be the owners of a book believed by them to be containing the last words of Allah, which says that those who do not use their aql are worse that animals.

But just see what even the great thinker of Islam like Imam Ghazali, says about use of `aql` (reason):

``Aql ka nafah is qadar tum ko bas he kih woh tum ko Aanhazrat (saw) ke sacha janane ki taraf hidayat kare aur aap ke isharon ke mansha aur moorad samjhaawe. Pas jab yih soorat ho jaae to uske bahd aql ko mahzool karo kih kuchh tasarraf nah kare aur ittibah ko apne oopar laazam karo kionkih tumhari salaamati ittibaah se ho gi``. (Ehyaaulaloom by Ghazali, Vol. I, page 84).

As it is the `Aql` of the Muslims stands virtually suspended for over a thousand years since Imam Ghazali wrote those lines, Quran or no Quran. What do you say Moulvi Shiraz?

For Ajmi (othe than Arabs, aliens) Muslims, Arabic, which is considered to be the latest language of Allah, bestows heavenly attributes even on a black stone by calling it `Hajre Aswad` but strange enough they have converted `Sallat` of Arabic to Persian `Namaz`, perhaps because it is more practicable, liguistically. So it is the word, the language, which makes all the difference, not its meaning or spirit . That is why they have virtually banned the use of the word `Khuda` (the Persian name of God) in the government media in Pakistan, wherein it has totally been replaced by Arabic `Allah`. Inshallah, Mashallah, Allah (not khuda) haafiz .

Please give the book some respect.

The name of the book is Qur`an, not Koran. Don`t let your religion you call `secularism` take away your common sense. Give it the respect you gave to your kindergardten books, your high school books, the books on your beautiful shelves and under your pillow. Understand?

Chowk Staff should have understood it and corrected it before publishing the article. Using fashionable words does not make an article attractive. It repels the common man (the actual target) and attracts the pseudos.

Moreover, if I said Sucklarism instead of Secuarlism, would you feel comfortable? They sound almost the same, don`t they?

Athar Mian, tum aakhir Mussalmaan bun hee gaye :-)

Nice article. My reading of Islam tells me that it is the message which is the q`uran, not the paper on which it is written, let alone printed.

But there is nothing wrong in treating with respect a book of learning. Heck, we were taught not to touch even our textbooks with feet (and I still do not!). The problem starts when people start riots and killing others because someone else is not respecting that book.

While everyone should read and try to understand the Quran solo, not every-
body is prepared to comprehend it`s multi-layered message. Just like you don`t
become a surgeon by reading one medical textbook. There are folks out there
who have spent lifetimes trying to better understand this one book. One can
use their broad knowledge-base and expertise to one`s benefit, eg: Maudodi.

There is a difference between plain reverance and worship. I don`t think there
was a Muslim out there, even jahil farmhands, who didn`t know the difference.

But I like the overall tone of the author, as he tackled this most sensitive of
subjects and congratulate him on turning over a new leaf.

Author writes ``I advocate reading the Koran and devouring it...``

devouring eh??

While everyone should read and try to understand the Quran solo, not every-
body is prepared to comprehend it`s multi-layered message. Just like you don`t
become a surgeon by reading one medical textbook. There are folks out there
who have spent lifetimes trying to better understand this one book. One can
use their broad knowledge-base and expertise to one`s benefit, eg: Maudodi.

There is a difference between plain reverance and worship. I don`t think there
was a Muslim out there, even jahil farmhands, who didn`t know the difference.

But I like the overall tone of the author, as he tackled this most sensitive of
subjects and congratulate him on turning over a new leaf.

Simon

What is worship?

I do believe the intrinsic message of this article should be publicised in the media. As the struggling alienated muslim who seeks to fill his void impresses his God by killing the innocent is in dire need to read this article. I`m sure if these suicide bombers were told that they can fulfils their void by understanding the meaning behind the Quraan, they might have been deterred from their contrary horrendous ideology of this faith.

Some Muslims claim that it was Abu Bakr who approached Muhammad asking him to marry his daughter. This is of course not true and here is the proof.

Sahih Bukhari 7.18
Narrated `Ursa:
The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for `Aisha`s hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said ``But I am your brother.`` The Prophet said, ``You are my brother in Allah`s religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry.``

Arabs were a primitive lot with little rules to abide. Yet they had some code of ethics that they honored scrupulously. For example, although they fought all the year round, they abstained from hostilities during certain holy months of the year. They also considered Mecca to be a holy city and did not make war against it. A adopted son’s wife was deemed to be a daughter in law and they would not marry her. Also it was customary that close friends made a pact of brotherhood and considered each other as true brothers. The Prophet disregarded all of these rules anytime they stood between him and his interests or whims.

Abu Bakr and Muhammad had pledged to each other to be brothers. So according to their customs Ayesha was supposed to be like a niece to the Holy Prophet. Yet that did not stop him to ask her hand even when she was only six years old.

But this moral relativist Prophet would use the same excuse to reject a woman he did not like.
Sahih Bukhari V.7, B62, N. 37
Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
It was said to the Prophet, ``Won`t you marry the daughter of Hamza?`` He said, ``She is my foster niece (brother`s daughter). ``

Hamza and Abu Bakr both were the foster brothers of Muhammad. But Ayesha must have been too pretty for the Prophet to abide by the codes of ethics and custom.

Re: #13 by Azure

[Please give the book some respect.]

Yup.

The koran came out of this guy’s mouth.

So it definitely deserves respect.

Re: # 22

Tsk tsk. I wish you could say that in your `real life`, if you have one. It takes a few seconds to unleash a pack of bloodthirsty radicals on hypocrites like thee :-)

Re: # 21 Ajeya

Your post needs some correction:

Hamza Bin Abdul Mutlib (RA) or Abu Bakr (RA) were not foster brothers of Holy Prophet (pbuh). Hamza (RA) was his paternal uncle and was of about the same age as that of Holy Prophet (pbuh). According to the Arab custom of that time, when they were infants both suckled the same woman. According to Islamic law, two children who happen to suckle same woman becaome real brothers and sisters. All the sanctity of relationships as stipulated by Islam apply between them. There is no English equivalent to describe the relationship thus formed. The word ``Foster brothers`` is a misleading word.

Abu Bakr (RA) was not related to Holy Prophet (pbuh) through any direct realtionship through family ties or through these relationships as that of formed between to unrelated people when they suckle the same woman. However, Islamic law stipulates that all Muslims are brothers and sisters and though we are not related we have to give due respect to each other as if we would to our real brothers and sisters. In the said hadith Abu Bakr (RA) is referring to this relationship.

If there be a Heaven, let it be consumed by Fire

If there be a Hell, Let its Fires be Doused

Let God be our aim, our journey, and destination

The Quran is but one of the vehicles.

God communicating to us through her revelations, Lets understand Her.

A. Shiraz Sahib,
Great article.
You should see the copy of my Quran. Its old, tattered, the pages are dogeared, perfumed with rose oil. When I was in college at LSU, I always kept it in my booksack. Read the translation by Abdullah Yousaf Ali again and again, and discussed it with my Islamic Studies Professor.

Other Pakistani and Muslim students were horrified that I kept a copy of the Quran in the booksack and that I would sit on the grass by the fountain and read while they would stand near by. How dare I put the Quran on a lower elevation than they were!

When I would ask them if they had read the Quran, thy would say Yes, but only in arabic. They had no idea what they had read, many of them prayed regularly, but had absolutely no idea what the prayers in Arabic meant. They said, the Quran is too grand for their limited understanding and the translations inadequate. Such Ignorance!

#23 by Azure

[It takes a few seconds to unleash a pack of bloodthirsty radicals on hypocrites like thee :-)]

The veneer of un-islamic civility is so thin and contrived that the actual intentions show through now and then.

Re: #24 by Urstruly

[According to Islamic law, two children who happen to suckle same woman becaome real brothers and sisters.]

Yup. Not unsurprisingly, he`s the one that made the law.

:-D

And by the way, could you direct me towards the book, chapter and verse where this law is enshrined?

Re: # 28 Ajeya

The sanctity of relationships as it is practiced in Muslim societies today were established in the Holy Qura`n Chapter Al-Nissa (The Women) 4:23:

``Prohibited to you (For marriage) are:- Your mothers, daughters, sisters; father`s sisters, Mother`s sisters; brother`s daughters, sister`s daughters; foster-mothers (Who suckled you), foster-sisters; your wives` mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom ye have gone in,- no prohibition if ye have not gone in;- (Those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time, except for what is past; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful;- ``

Please keep in mind that the word ``foster`` in the verse has a special meaning as explained in my last post - the urdu, Arabic, and persian equivalent is R`zaa`t and such a relationship is thus called Rzza`i - brother, Razza`i-sister etc.

Re: #29 by Urstruly

Thanks for the information.

By the way - do I understand this straight - foster-mothers who didn`t suckle you are allright but foster-sisters who didn`t suckle you are not?

And also, WHEN was this particular law codified by Mohammed?

Re: # 19

``What is worship?``

A very pertinent question indeed! Do Muslims not worship the Black Stone (they call it by its Arabic name only, i.e., Hajre Aswad) as it was worshipped by the pagan Arabs before advent of Islam or as the Hindus worship `Shiv Ling` which is also a black stone, but not like the former falling from heaven, being the right hand of Allah, according to certain traditions. The traditions also say that the Prophet kissed it and prostrated before it.
It seems the man is by nature a worshipper of stone but why a black one at that. A Punjabi poet had said:

Pathar di pooja hondi ae ki kahbe ki but khane
Farq sirf ina ae ik gharhia ae ik unrhgharhia

(The `Stone` is worshipped whether it is Kahba or an idol house, the only difference being that one is carved and the other uncarved).

And the great Ghalib says:

Khaahish ko ehmaqon ne prastish dia qaraar
Kia poojta hoon us bute bedaadgar ko mein

As the Qurane Hakeem says, ``Have you seen those who have made their wishes their god.``

Again Josh Malihaabadi says:

Momin nah kare sajdah to muslim nah rahe

Aaarif jo kare sajda to kaafir ho jaae

The question raised by Kalachakra `What is worship?` is however still begging for answer as especially in Islam the only `apparent` worship is done only that of the `Black Stone`.

Will somebody enlighten us?

mr. shah:

such keh dooN aye b`rahmin gur tu bura na maaney...

re: worship

i worship my partner in crime M
i worship ghalib
i worship good articulation
i worship effective communication

and

i do not worship any stone..black or white

and

i do not pray to any of above...hope this helps!

have a nice day, sir

t

temporal

What is worship?

kaalchakra # 33:

:)

So what is worship, temporal ji?

All right, on a friendly note, let me help out here. We can go step by step.

Do Parsis worship the fire?

kaalchakra sahib:

kyuN ghumana chah rahay hO humaiN?

aap ko bhi pata hay

aur hum ko bhi

(aur hum nay tO likh bhi diya hay saaf saaf in #32- aap PaRhaiN na paRhaiN -- aap samjhna chahaiN, na samjhna chahaiN - aap ki marzi)

have a nice weekend

t

Re: # 36
I have read ur comments Sir and the rest of them here including urstruly,temporal & Ajeya. I have question here we all believe on GOD. But if u want to prove scientifically u can`t do that so my point is that those who believe on GOD are they having any mind sickness, accepting some thing true which don`t exist.
What ``deity`` is ????

Re: # 37
worship : to treat somebody or something as divine and show respect by engaging in acts of prayer and devotion
Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005. © 1993-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Its all there it all depends on u how u wanna take it.

stinger_kh

I don`t think that people who belive in God have any sickness! That would be silly.

So, using that defintion, what is your and your friends` view of Parsis? Do Parsis worship the fire?

Temporal ji

There was this Christian tract on how one must avoid cults. It offered a very simple definition of a cult: any religion that does not fully conform to the Word of Living God as available in the Christian Bible is a cult and dangerous.

There are understandings, and then there are understandings :)

Re: # 41
i think they workship fire becoz GOD can be in any form of energy that is what i think i don`t know much about others. For few extra information about Parsi i have to contact Cowasjee for that.

Stinger_kh

Thanks. That is a great answer. A person who does not know and knows that he does not know is in a far better position than one who does not know and is so sure of his knowledge that he refuses to find out.

When Cowasjee explains, please listen to him with an open mind. He will tell you that Parsis do not worship the fire.

Re: # 30

I will answer your second question first. The verses contained in Chapter Al-Nisa (The Women) were revealed from 3rd year of Prophet Mohammad`s migration to medina and upto the early part of the fifth year. The exact date of verse 23 is not known for certainity but from ahadith and accounts of his life an approximate time period have been established, which I don`t know at this time. Please keep in mind that the sequence of verses in Qura`n are not arranged in chronological order but they have been arranged according to the instructions of Holy Prophet (pbuh). That is why it takes a little reaserch to establish the chronolgy.

As far as second question is concerned. I think by foster mother and foster sister, you mean a relationship that is established due to adoption. In Islam, to encourage the institution of adoption and to provide the love and care of the whole family, adoption does not establish any relationship between adoptee and the adopted. The adoptee does not have a right in inheritence and thus eliminates the competition from foster siblings. But accoding to the Islamic law of inhetritence each blood relationship has pre-ordained share from the two third of the estate and from the 1/3rd left over portion an adoptee may bequeth a part or whole of of that part to the adopted.

In short, upon puberty, the adopted has to be seprated from opposite sex of the household and a certain demeanor must be established among them just as one would maintain the demeanor between un-related man and woman as per Islamic values. So to address your question more directly an adopted can marry his or her foster parent or sibling.

the various points of interest so far have been:

*athar vs. arthur.

*athar`s questionable ``return`` to the faith.

*koran vs. qur`an.

*worship as opposed to reverence.

- - if the qur`an were indeed just a book in the eyes of a group of people, a man or a village wouldn`t have to be destroyed for allegedly desecrating it now would it?

- - if many muslims do understand the difference between worship and reverence then why is it that a group of muslim men brutally and fatally punish those who would desecrate it?

what then is reverence? and what is worship. and are excess reverence and worship synonymous.

i believe shiraz sahib is already testing this idea of reverence as opposed to worship in his constant usage of the spelling ``koran`` as opposed to ``qur`an`` -- a spelling he has chosen to use more than twenty times in this article (which beats bill clinton standing outside a running plane and using the term genocide twenty times to refer to what happened in rwanda within a span of no more and perhaps less than ten minutes). already it has gotten a riled-up reaction, and questioning.

reading this article, i can`t really determine that shiraz`s views have changed all that much. it is certainly a lot more reasonable than past attempts. advocating that one read the qur`an and devour it is reading it as one would tolkien, or c. s. lewis, or faiz, ghalib or iqbal, is not necessarily a return. . . it is a continuing journey to a destination where shiraz will still meet with massive resistance. courage!

A real investigation of the genetic relationship between the three so-called Abrahamic faiths may well throw up some surprises.

A common understanding of the relationship is, in a nutshell: Christianity as a schismatic variant of Judaism, minus the Chosen People tribalism and the taboos, modified for propagation among the Gentiles; and Islam as an attempt to reform and ‘rationalise’ Christianity by discarding some of the myths and the central mysteries as well as the institution of the Church, while reabsorbing some taboos from Judaism.

There is reason to believe that this description is completely wrong in the place it assigns to Christianity. Christianity may have originated not as a Hellenized Judaism, but rather, as a Judaized version of the pagan mystery religions that predominated in the Roman empire in the first century CE. According to this view, the metaphorical-mythical-mystical elements in the New Testament – stuff like the Triune God, Christ as the Son of God, the Virgin Birth, assorted miracles, the Resurrection, etc. were put there quite deliberately. There was never any intention to present the Gospels as a historical account of events that ‘actually’ occurred. It was well-understood that a historical Jesus never existed.

If this account is accurate, Christianity is the odd man out among the so-called triad Judaic religions, originating as a ‘pagan’ creed rather than a variant of Judaic monotheism. The attempt by the human author(s) of the Quran to purge Christianity of obvious ‘irrationality’ and ‘idolatry’ by, for instance decreeing that Christ was a Prophet and not the Son of God, would then be a consequence of misunderstanding and misplaced concreteness.

From the following few posts by Kalchakra and temporal etc. I see that there has emerged confusion about the Islamic concept of worship. The title of this article has added to the confusion as well.

In order to understand the monotheistic nature of Islam one must understand the difference between two closely related terms - idolatry and iconolatry . The term idolatry has two connotations i.e. a worshiper worships an idol assuming that the deity that he is worshipping has a physical form that is depicted in the form of the idol. The other connotation is that “this sacred idol” is the god or deity himself.

Similarly, iconolatry has two connotations as well – a symbol is associated with something or someone sacred and in extreme cases this symbol itself becomes either a deity or starts possessing the same characteristics, as a deity would have.

Islam forbids both practices of idolatry and iconolatry period. However, we see that Islam attaches some form of sanctity to places, objects, and symbols. Is this Iconolatry then? Or is it outright Idolatry, as the article suggests. There is such a gray line between these two concepts that a person who does not know the difference may confuse one for the other.

In Islam, in order to keep its practices stand clear from either of “iconolatry” or “idolatry” two concepts have been introduced to us by Allah and his Prophet (pbuh). These concepts are called “Kufr” and “shirk”.

A Kafir is one who practices kufr, and the practice of kufr is the outright rejection of the belief that a High Entity, God, or Allah exists. The modern English equivalents of Kafir are – atheists, agnostics, freethinkers, humanists, skeptics and to some lesser degree the doubters.

A “mushriq” on the other hand is that who does not deny the existence of a Higher Entity but he thinks that there are many higher entities that share the workload of the universe. A particular idol may be responsible for rains and other for prosperity A certain symbol may be associated with fertility and other with destruction. And the worshiper worships one or the other as per his requirement.

In Islamic cultural practices “iconolatry” has taken its extreme form. For example, in shia theology, Ali (RA) have all those powers that Allah has reserved for himself. Also in other sects certain dead personalities are addressed for help, wealth, prosperity, fertility etc. at their graves or in person assuming that they have a special connection to Allah or they share powers with Allah somehow, under one context or the other. Similarly, as for symbols the written text of Qura’n or other prayers is considered to heal etc.

Islam strictly forbids these practices because this is “Shirk” period. It stipulates that every man has a direct connection to Allah by saying that Allah is closer to man than his carotid artery.

However, I must clarify here that, there is certain demeanor as ordered by Holy Prophet (pbuh) while dealing with Qura’n as a book. Men and women are forbidden to touch it without ablution. Its recitation at certain times is forbidden. And it is instructed that we should listen to it attentively by taking a break from our daily affairs.

Similarly, Kaaba in Mecca has no significance other than a center point for direction and to produce uniformity among worshipers. The black stone at one corner of Kaaba is merely a marker from where the seven ritual circles begin. It is important because since Abraham established this house of God ten thousand years ago, he himself put that marker there, and its black color separated it from other stones. God may have ordered him to kiss this stone on every circle and offer prayer, and Holy Prophet (pbuh) continued the practice. Other than that, the building or the stone have no powers that they share with Allah and Muslism of any sect do not consider them forms of deity or deities themselves.

Re: #44 by Urstruly

In an earlier post (#29), you had mentioned:

``Prohibited to you (For marriage) are:- Your mothers, daughters, sisters; father`s sisters, Mother`s sisters; brother`s daughters, sister`s daughters; foster-mothers (Who suckled you), foster-sisters;.....``

This tells me that according to Mohammeds`s rules, foster-sisters are always prohibited, but only foster-mothers who suckled you are prohibited. Therefore foster-mothers who did not suckle you are fair game, but foster-sisters are never so.

But in this post you say:

``So to address your question more directly an adopted can marry his or her foster parent or sibling.``

So which one is correct?

Urstruly (various)

Your attempts to make a distinction between reverence and worship through various definitions of idolatory and ``iconoclatory`` had my head spinning; I wonder how an illiterate Allah Rakha has no such problem.

How could the Prophet make rules about how to treat the book which had not yet been written and, maybe, not even envisaged (wasn`t it Hazrat Omar who decided to compile it in a book form?), not to speak of his doing so for printed versions centuries before Gutenberg?

On adoption, I know for a fact that Canada`s Immigration Office used to reject all applications for sponsorship by Indo-Canadian Muslims as invalid as it was against Muslim practice. And I believe, Ajeya is right in suggesting that the Prophet made adoptions illegal after he wanted to marry someone who his adopted son had married.

Kaalchakra:
Here are some ``operational`` definitions:

- If you bow your head before the portrait of a man, that is worship; if I cut your head off for mentioning some unmentionables about that man or maybe even keeping his portrait, it is simply my reverence for the man.

- I am merely following some prescribed rules when I pray facing in the direction of a stone, you worship your ``butts`` in your ``butt-khana``.

Urstruly, dost-mittar

Urstruly does deserve one`s thanks/recognition/gratitude for at least trying to think.

I would still request others to please volunteer to us what they have been told is the difference between their own rituals of reverence and other people`s worshipping.

Simon hinted that this is one thing that everyone - supposedly every man, woman, and child - * knows *.

AlephNull:
``The attempt by the human author(s) of the Quran to purge Christianity of obvious ‘irrationality’ and ‘idolatry’ by, for instance decreeing that Christ was a Prophet and not the Son of God, would then be a consequence of misunderstanding and misplaced concreteness. ``

The author(s) of Quran-ul-Hakeem werent too bright, check this out another factual error:

---

009.030
YUSUFALI: The Jews call `Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah`s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
PICKTHAL: And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!
SHAKIR: And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!




Please, notice the phrase: ``these are the words of their mouths;`` this means to refer presumably Jews` mouths but who is the receptor of these words? and what specific tribe of Jewish people is He talking about one from Medina? Jerusalem???? sounds like the case of shifty narrators to me.

---

kaalchakra:
i think dost-mittar provided the precise difference between worship and prayer.

“It is not lawful for you (to marry other) women after this, nor to change them for other wives even though their beauty attracts you, except those (captives or slaves) whom your right hand possesses. And Allah is Ever a Watcher over all things.” Surah 33:52

Thought-provoking...

Re: # 43
Yesturday i asked u some thing about GOD existence u fail me to answer by just saying that GOD exist. Let me continue with the worship issue of Parsis i came upwith following points. ``Zoroastrians regard fire as a pure creation, and thus fire became the symbol of Zoroastrianism much as the cross is the symbol of Christianity. Many Zoroastrian rites take place within fire temples. A holy fire is kept constantly burning.`` I see chiristans kissing there crossbar everyday so what is that u tell me.

stinger_kh,

Sure, if that will make this conversation easier, I will say anything about God.

He/She/It exists. I don`t know too much about Him/Her/It. Certainly not much that I can be sure of. Certainly I am not so sure of my knowledge that I fight over my beliefs about God with a good person like you.

The True He/She/It must be simply too Grand for my limited human abilities to completely comprehend.

What Self-Respecting God would agree to be confined into my little brain? :(

At my most ambitious, I hope to understand merely a little of Him/Her/It. You might know a great deal more, but probably not ALL.

We should pool our knowledge. Even then the chances of our fully figuring out that Creator of Creators will be small.

---

About Christians, only they can explain what all that slobbering means. The same thing with Muslims when they kiss various objects.

In my younger days, when I had just enticed my first girl friends, I used to carry their pictures in my wallet.

Now, the pictures are gone, and so has the kissing :( :(

#55:

jhoota kaun

jo oosnay kaha
dil sey laga ker rakhtay ho mujhay
jhootay kaheeN kay!

tou pichli jaib say
leather wallet nikal ker
dikha di oos ki tasveer
maiN nay

---

digression:

stop all this postulation friend...be true to your calling

respect and tolerate those different from yours

remember our efforts to formulate our declaration to live and let live?....to you yours, to me mine...and the first step is renunciation of use of force against civilians...

temporal

There is a wrong belief among some, IMHO, that while Muslims carry out `rituals of reverence` (R o` R), the rest `worship.`

This has caused huge problems historically, and the world over.

Let`s work together to remove this grave and dangerous misunderstanding, not reinforce it, not attempt to save it.

---

To you yours only if yours does not, uninvited, hurt mine, right?


Must go now. I will be honored to continue learning from you and stinger_kh tomorrow.

Dear Friends,

In this board many people have sugested that every body should show respect to Kuran or prophet.

But I think that many people are showing too much respect.

It is high time that people shoul laugh, ridicule, lampoon, caricature, parody the most sacrosanct beliefs. If a belief system can not with stand the test of ridcule or lampooning then it reaky has some propblem.

As a child growing up, the first thing we use to do was make parodies of hindu gods and godess`s eg.

Dandak van pahunchay Ragu Rai,
Peechay Lachman beedee sulgai,
Bolay Ram suno priyay bhraata,
Tel bina andar nahi jaatta.

Or

Ram says to Sita
Ghannan ghannan ghan ghor andhera,
Dhoti andar farkat mora.

Sita replies
Suno Nath tum se kya chori,
Dhoti andar farkat more.

But this type stupid parodies did not har my faith in Hinduism in any way instead it has strengthen it.

I will now request my Muslim friends to write some pariodies about Prophet. Or If they request me I can give them a helping hand

stinger:

the slobbering of the cross as kaalchakra put it is not to worship the wood, but in reverence of that one cross that christ was crucified on. i, myself have slobbered on that cross, so i know a little of what that is about.

of course representations of that one cross have accompanied horrifying events such as the crusades, the inquisition, and crosses are still burned by that white christian group that calls itself the ku klux klan in the lawns of blacks, jews and anyone who they feel deserves a cross burning, so go figure. . . one slobbers, or goes about killing.

Re: # 49 Dost:

Why? My point of view is very clear. There are three levels at which an individual makes a `positive` connection with another entity - be it a deity, an icon, a person, or a book.

The first level of connection is that of Reverence. Allah and his Prophet (pbuh) have set the limits for the reverence with a special instruction that we must always follow the middle path. The degree of reverence to ones parents, teachers, holy books, mosques, to Prophet and to God himself are well defined and it has access to every one. The moulanas in villages in every sermon on Friday empahsis on these limits very well and a regular Allah Rakha knows his limkits very well. But the very Allah Rakha may be misled by his religious leaders as well. The worship of graves and using Qura`n as Taa`weez are the practices that people with week faith have started for their worldly benfits.

When these limits are transgressed the simple reverence first corrupts into iconolatry. For example, just before before Muhammad ibn-Abd-al-Wahab (1703–1792), who is the founder of Wahabi sect, Muslims of Arabia almost started worshipping a tree under which the Hudaibiya pact was signed by Holy Prophet (pbuh). The gravesite in Medina called Janat-ul-Baqi, which contains the graves of the companions and family members of Holy prophet and various other honorable personalities in Islamic history are burried became shrines, and people started pagan rituals over there which Holy Prophet speciifically forbade. The world of Islam should be greatly indebted to Wahab for taking a stand against these vile practices and for eradicating from the land on which once Holy prophet walked upon.

The idolatry is the furthr corruption of the iconolatry. These are the outright practices of Shirk that I have explained in my last post.

So you see how a simple practice of reverence if kept unchecked turns into iconolatry and outright idolatry. That is why every day of a Muslim is a day of Jihad, to keep on righteous path, and keep his flock on the righteous path as well.


2. It is a common misconception that Qura`n in the written form did not exist in written form prior to the third caliph. The truth of the matter is that Holy Prophet (pbuh) himself permitted both the penning of his ahadith and also the Qura`n. He himself organized the sequence of verses in Qura`n. That is the reason the very first verses of revelation are in the 30th , the last chapter of the book, whereas, the second Chapter of the Holy book (The Heifer) was reveled in the 10th-12th year of his Prophethood. But keep in mind that during Holy Prophet times the complete Qura`n existed only in the memory of his companions whom were taught by Prophet himself to memorize. It shouldn`t raise any eyebrows, because even today 10-12 year old children can memorize this book and there are millions of Hafiz around the globe. This is the living miracle of this book. At the time of Holy Prophet there also existed parchments and tree barks and clay tablets upon which some of the text was written. First time Muslims felt that this text should be collated in a book and saved in the book form was when the second Caliph sent a Jihad expedition against the false Prophet Mussailma the Liar and in that expedition some 2000+ Hafiz fell martyr.

arstoo sahib:
whats with parodies? Quran IMO happens to have some of the best lines - a sort of a neat narrative device, a paody Onto itself. So before, i go Worship Yuengling, let me recite a Chapter, Kaallchakra please pay heed. Very pertinent to our little two bit bakwas over the nuances of Worship vs. Prayer . Beautiful, Boolean and Bold in its addressing specifically Us, the Kafiroons. Here, it is:




AL-KAFIROON (THE DISBELIEVERS, ATHEISTS)

Total Verses: 6
Revealed At: MAKKA


In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

109.001
YUSUFALI: Say : O ye that reject Faith!
PICKTHAL: Say: O disbelievers!
SHAKIR: Say: O unbelievers!

109.002
YUSUFALI: I worship not that which ye worship,
PICKTHAL: I worship not that which ye worship;
SHAKIR: I do not serve that which you serve,

109.003
YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
PICKTHAL: Nor worship ye that which I worship.
SHAKIR: Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:

109.004
YUSUFALI: And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
PICKTHAL: And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
SHAKIR: Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,

109.005
YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
PICKTHAL: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
SHAKIR: Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:

109.006
YUSUFALI: To you be your Way, and to me mine.
PICKTHAL: Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
SHAKIR: You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.



Sadaq Allah ul Azeem

kaalchakra #57:

you say To you yours only if yours does not, uninvited, hurt mine, right?

i said in #56: respect and tolerate those different from yours

comprehendre?

forget others, just between us two, who is obsessed with the other`s faith?

did i ever question your faith directly, indirectly, obliquely or even in passing?

i don`t expect you to... but for the record if you ever answer this in all honesty, you will gain more insight into your own personal quest...

good night,

t

#61 by Raw_Dust
Dear Raw Dust,

The gibbersish you wrote I am having difficulty to understand. There is no sarcasm, satire, parody in what you quote. If there is any I am having difficulty in seeing it.

Only thing funny is your sincerety.

Can you please explain what is the meaning of ``Sadaq Allah ul Azeem`` ?

Anybody on this board who wants to lampoon some aspect of Islam or prophet (PBUH).

Urstruly#60:

Thanks for your elaboration. Actually, underneath apparent differences, we are more or less on the same page. It`s a continuum from respect to reverence to worship and it is difficult to make sharp distinctions, other than making some rough and ready rules, like not bowing before a statue or praying at the graves, etc. In your father`s time, most Punjabi muslims touched the feet of their elders just like their hindu counterparts, a practice which has now been discontinued in Pakistan (except, perhaps in Sindh); however, it does not mean that Punjabi Muslims were earlier worshipping their elders. Since you are familiar with Bollywood, you have probably noticed how many Hindu junior actors would touch the feet and seek the blessings of seniors like Dilip Kumar (Yusuf Khan) at award functions or Muslim actors doing the same to the senior Hindu actors; this is not one ``kanjar`` worshipping another but a simple sign of respect.

I am aware of the history of the compilation of the qur`an. The point I was making was that the Prophet may have prescribed some rules on respecting the message but not about a book which had yet to be compiled; that had to be in the realm of qiyas.

dost-mittar

It`s amazing that a whole group of people will assert a divine right to be blind to, even denigrate, other`s simple cultural practices. When the Japanese bow to each other, they do not exchange a quick worship.

---

Temporal bhai

That is the central tragedy, isn`t it?

You, a most liberal of people, want all the understanding in the world without inconveniencing yourself to understand a single thing about others. You are eager to deny every thing that the rest of mankind sees you doing and hears you saying, but you do not wish to listen to basic explanations of other`s everydayday beliefs. You lay claim to every bit of respect anybody could give you, but you will not learn the elementary meaning of the word ``respect`` when it is time to offer it to others.

What more can I - and others like me - say, my good friend, than you and people like you do not behave so out of deliberate and planned ill will, but out of ignorance, and a very weak moral framework that keeps you from making any effort to examine your ignorance.

I will be glad to answer any you question you may have. I do believe there is a divinity in you which deserves respect.

---

arstoo

Raw_dust merely opined that with that kind of original, no new parody is needed. Should you too be a disbeliever, then ask yourself, are you badly parodied by AL-KAFIROON?

Re: # 61
...and the point is... aethism is better than islam...right...?

Re: # 51 Raw Dust

I would like to show you some back ground of the verse 9:30 (Repentance:30), since it explains not only the relationship of Islam with that of Judaism and Christianity but also explains the reasons why Islam was introduced after all: The verse is quoted as:

(Repentance, 9:30): ``The Jews call `Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah`s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! ``

The background of this verse is that Jewish faith as it was introduced by Moses (pbuh) went into decline after King Solomon (pbuh) after various attacks from outsiders and especially during their subjugation by Assyrians they lost the basic tennents of their faith. As the history goes, Moses entrusted Levys (one tribe of Jews) as the custodians of the Holy text of Torah; during attacks Levys hid the holy tablets and their subsequent generations completely forgot where the text was hidden. Historians put this situation in the timeframe of 100 years, while Jewish people remained oblivious of where the text was. Another tribe named Cohens were entrusted by Moses (pbuh) to provide the religious leadreship to the Jewish people. Since refernce text went missing, Cohens started decreeing on their own discretion and altered the text. Years later Ezra (pbuh) was sent as Prophet who revived the religion and thus he is reverred by Jews. This revernce exceeded its limits and Jews started calling Ezra `son of God`. Once again Cohens were behind this, and even though they had the text, the used their on descretion as they used to do in past and declared Ezra as `son of God`. This is what Qura`n refers to as ``they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. `` in 9:30. Similarly, Bible never declared Jesus (pbuh) as `son of God` but this addition was made a couple of centuries later. Keep in mind that Bible was collated after approx. 90 years of Jesus Christ`s (pbuh) assencenssion to heavens.

So when Qura`n says that ``That is a saying from their mouth``, it is in fact paraphrasing Allah Who says that Jwish claim of Ezra and Christian claims of Jesus as sons of God are the words from the mouths of Jewish and Christian priests and not Ours.

It is further explained in the next verse Repentence, 9:31 ``They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)``.

There is a Hadith associated with this verse that explains its meaning. Once a Christian named Adi Ben Tai, who later converted to Islam and demanded an explanation of this verse (while saying that we Christians do not consider our priests as gods). Holy Prophet (pbuh) said that this verse means that there are priests who (``create`` new beleifs) making what is Haram (forbidden) as Halal (permissible) and vice versa., when they do not have any refernece from their books. (And those Christians and Jews who follow such preists unknowingly place them in the place of what is reserved for Allah; He is the Only One who can dictate what to Believe)


This is what is happening even today. There are many traditional Christian sects who are not only practicing homosexuality but also promoting it as well as if it was divine manadate, while both Old and New Testaments (Torah & Bible) strictly forbid the practice. So those Christians who follow such priests, are in fact send God to the backseat and putting these prietss in His place even though they won`t admitt it.

However, the narrator of this explanation (which in this case is Abu al a`la Moududi) emphasis that not all Christians and Jews accept and follow such practices. Qura`n testifies one Christian sect to be on righteous path which are Sabians, an orthodox Christian sect, who used to live in the present day Iraq area, during the time of Holy Prophet. They are probably extinct now.

(caveat: long post)

second attempt

#62 by temporal on July 31, 2005 9:05pm PT
kaalchakra #57:

you say To you yours only if yours does not, uninvited, hurt mine, right?

i said in #56: respect and tolerate those different from yours

comprehendre?

forget others, just between us two, who is obsessed with the other`s faith?

did i ever question your faith directly, indirectly, obliquely or even in passing?

i don`t expect you to... but for the record if you ever answer this in all honesty, you will gain more insight into your own personal quest...

underlined added for further emphasis

after not making even a half hearted attempt to understand me you launch into another one of your posts…sigh…i will make one final attempt…and if this does not work for you and me so be it:)

That is the central tragedy, isn`t it? …You, a most liberal of people, want all the understanding in the world without inconveniencing yourself to understand a single thing about others.

jeez, after all the exchanges we are not even on the same page…i can think of only two reasons for that….1: i am unable to explain where i come from or 2: you have permanent blinkers on your eyes or are deliberately avoiding to see my stance!

forget labeling me…your assertion is utterly preposterous that i want ALL the understanding in the world without understanding a SINGLE thing about other world/s

let me spell out in hopefully simple English what i have been saying over the years: I believe in live and let live ... do you understand this concept?

with six billion plus inhabiting this world hindus, muslims, christians, jews, buddhitsts, animists, atheists, agnostics, zoroastrians…(not in any particular order) have a right to live and let live…in harmony, in peace, in tolerance, and while avoiding loss of innocent civilian lives…

You are eager to deny every thing that the rest of mankind sees you doing and hears you saying, but you do not wish to listen to basic explanations of other`s everydayday beliefs.

this claim is preposterous…all the more since you are talking to me one on one!....mankind?...have some fear!

what is that i deny?

what is it that is done by my co-religionists in the name of my religion that over the years i have not denounced more vociferously than many?

as for your second claim here that i do not wish to listen to basic explanations of other’s every day beliefs….this is another myth

there was a time when i did comparative religious studies…all major religions evolve pointing to good and away from bad…and majority of their subscribers retain these basic good instincts…peaceful co-existence

…speaking of my religion…it does not sanction suicide bombing…it does not sanction taking innocent civilian lives…and while i fight the battles with those vested interests who have hijacked my religion to justify their nefarious activities in its name…and

… and other more pressing issues of survival, interests, priorities and passions ….i lack time to do more comparative religious studies…but am sure also that the ‘troubles’ there (in other religions) is not caused by this neglect of mine…smiley icon added!

You lay claim to every bit of respect anybody could give you, but you will not learn the elementary meaning of the word ``respect`` when it is time to offer it to others.

in the still of the night please reflect on what blasphemy you have written here

if anything

i give respect
not demand it!

What more can I - and others like me - say, my good friend, than you and people like you do not behave so out of deliberate and planned ill will, but out of ignorance, and a very weak moral framework that keeps you from making any effort to examine your ignorance.

you have hit the nail on the head…inadvertently….there is so much truth in what you say here…i am ignorant and have a very weak moral framework…but…

but for the same reason i try harder…to overcome these weaknesses

this has been a long post…and hopefully this will not go in vain…hopefully…but am not so sure…Allah knows best!

rgds

t

Re: # 64 Dost

Even though Islam as a code of life do permit certain cultural practices, but when these practices become in contrast with the system of values then they should be curbed and kept an eye on. So in my opinion, even though the practice of touching one`s parent`s or teachers` feet for reverence, is harmless and does not contrast any Islamic value, we must keep in our mind that we inherited it from our Hindu ancestors. Better yet, not to do it, since we have to follow the path of Holy Prophet (pbuh) which he set for us.

temporal

Why blame the poor old allah (or even god or bag won) for our own shortcomings. We are responsible for our own words.

I will make my point as simply as I can.

The philosophy of ``live and let live`` works only when certain specific conditions are met. Those conditions are not met when some people firmly hold sacred beliefs that are not only completely wrongheaded but also extremely dangerous to the health and welfare of other people.

You hold one such belief: that Islamic ``rituals of reverence`` are of very different nature and intent than is the ``worship`` of non Muslims. I don`t know if this belief is part of Islam itself or not, but even if it is, that does not become right.

This one seemingly innocuous belief has brought untold misery to and discrimination against non Muslims in every country where your correligionists have grown stronger.

It is not enough then to sing and chant and dance the sufi dance when you defend the indefensible, and perpetrate the excreble.

In doing so, you as a condition of your participation, yourself, with deliberate intent, throw out the principle of `live and let live` out the window.

Liberals are supposed to look within. I invite you again to help fix the basic, fundamental problem. You, as a dedicated insider, will carry much greater credibility than I as an outsider do.

al-lah’s connundrum ………


( the scene opens with al-lah and his favorite angel, gabriel, sitting around on cushions of fluffy clouds eating peyote pakoras and sipping heavenly nectar from al-lah’s favorite wine stream in jannah )

gabby (yawning and preening his wings with his semitic nose) : these nightly visits to the cave are killing me – why couldn’t you deliver this message in one big installment instead of leaking it out in bits and pieces …

al-lah: gabby, you complain too much ….. you know there a method to this madness; after all, I know everything and, trust me, it is for the best of mankind ............ and, in any case, you know that muhammad is not an educated man – he possibly couldn’t handle drinking from a fire hose and the people he leads also have a short attention span and are having a hard time getting the message even when i send it down in three line verses ……..

gabby: you mean they have adhd ?

al-lah: what is that ?

gabby (rolling his eyes): you don’t know everything do you ?

al-lah: don’t be a wiseass ….. anyway, you have to be careful with how you deliver my message; make sure there are no screwups like the last time when you gave people the impression that it was okay to worship manat and uzza – i have had to work overtime to come up with amendments and corrections to ……

gabby: aw c’mon ! that is not fair !...... you know it was your favorite angel, iblees, who intercepted and garbled up those verses …….. if you had listened to me and delivered the message in code instead of in Arabic we could have avoided the embarrassment .......... or at least keep the rascal locked up instead of letting him run loose in the the sands of saudi arabia while I am trying to do my job ………

al-lah: saudi arabia ?....... i think you better lay off the pakoras …….. you know I cannot interfere with free will – and iblees is part of that equation …………

gabby : sigh!...... but at least you could make sure that they transcribe the message the next day and put a dat-time stamp on it instead of carrying in around in their heads or writing it down on palm leaves and stone tablets …….. one of these days a goat is going to come along and eat a couple of chapters and all hell is going to break loose ……… at least, keep a backup copy of the original in the vault in case something horrible happens .............. by the way, how are the girls ?

al-lah: who?... manat and uzza? ............ they are fine, other than the usual growing up problems, you know ……. but really, i think you worry too much ................. i will make sure these people don’t mess up things like the jews and the christians before them who let the priests and other charlatans run amok with my word …… every time i think about it, it makes me want to send down another plague on those people !..... ingrates !

gabby: lighten up, for your sake !....... haven’t those people suffered enough already, wandering the desert for centuries with those long pointy noses …… by the way, why do I have to have this nose ?

al-lah: if it is good for my chosen people, it should be good enough for you …… besides, it looks good on you ………be thankful, I could have made you look like those horrible hindoos in hindoostan …………

gabby: yeah, what were you thinking when you made that big mess .......... do You know that a monkey – i think his name is hanuman - kidnapped their goddess and ran off to an island and they are all upset about it ………… when are we going to fix that ?

al-lah: (sighing) ...... i have given up on that bunch of kafirs! ….. they have defiled my name by worshiping stone idols and quadrupeds ........... maybe I should make it rain for forty days and forty nights to teach them a lesson ............

gabby: we have already done that with noah’s people ........... let’s come with something new: how about condemning them to seven cycles of reincarnation before letting them off the hook ….. imagine, a brahmin coming back as a jackass or a dalit code coolie to atone for his pompous ways …….

Al-lah: (looking at him affectiionatley) you are wicked ! .......... now get off your duff and take these verses down................ it is getting late and I don’t want to keep him waiting ………....

Gabby: can we change this “seal of the prophet’s “ to “ the last prophet” - you know, it could cause a lot of confusion in the future ………

Al-lah: just do what i tell you to do and stop trying to play the editor – stick to your job !

Gabby (muttering as he walks away): i am tired of being an errand boy ….....…i need to find another job ……

al-lah: what was that !...... i heard you !

hamidm2

Bombay was recently turned into Noah`s Ark. May be God punished us for worshipping stones and quadrupeds :(

#70:

You hold one such belief: that Islamic ``rituals of reverence`` are of very different nature and intent than is the ``worship`` of non Muslims. I don`t know if this belief is part of Islam itself or not, but even if it is, that does not become right.

(smiley icon:...there he goes putting words in my mouth)

i have written a few posts on chowk over the years...even a few articles...

show me one quote from there reflecting what you wrote above

also, i will add, provide the link!

temporal ji

Why go far? Kindly refer to # 31 and # 32.

Thanks.

Dost-mitter,

One other thing you want to tell your paki friends is that the `concept of God` in
the dharmic traditions (hindu, bouddha, jaina, sikh etc) are very different than
in the religions like islam, christianity and judaism.

kaalchakra sahib:

we are not on the same page!

one of us has serious comprehension issues....enuff said...please refrain from twisting...i have no interest in playing your game ... smiley icon added...you go your way...till we are on the same page in future....same icon...


exhibit A
#73 by temporal on August 1, 2005 10:12am PT
#70:

You hold one such belief: that Islamic ``rituals of reverence`` are of very different nature and intent than is the ``worship`` of non Muslims. I don`t know if this belief is part of Islam itself or not, but even if it is, that does not become right.

(smiley icon:...there he goes putting words in my mouth)

i have written a few posts on chowk over the years...even a few articles...

show me one quote from there reflecting what you wrote above

also, i will add, provide the link!


exhibit B
#74 by kaalchakra on August 1, 2005 10:21am PT
temporal ji

Why go far? Kindly refer to # 31 and # 32.

Thanks.


Exhibit C
#32 by temporal on July 30, 2005 6:05pm PT
mr. shah:

such keh dooN aye b`rahmin gur tu bura na maaney...

re: worship

i worship my partner in crime M
i worship ghalib
i worship good articulation
i worship effective communication

and

i do not worship any stone..black or white

and

i do not pray to any of above...hope this helps!

chaliye, aapki marzi.

I do hope you do not believe that anyone prays ``to`` any stone. Only a complete dunderhead will believe that, and I have never held you to be one.

kaalchakra sahib:

may i ask one question?

…what religion or lack of religion do you subscribe to? as Ralph i recall you were an indian christian…as kaalchakra i read somewhere you proclaiming yourself a hindu…if you are a hindu …kis qis’m kay hindu ho? batao gay nahin?

as for me, let me volunteer...

i am a small ‘m’ muslim…not a shia, sunni or any other sect

rgds

t

---

digression on religion

my outlook on major world religions is that they all show their followers the same path… and even those who do not follow any organized religion as such…atheists, agnostics etc. subscribe to humanitarian values to the best of their abilities… these followers may chose to walk, ride, drive…

take driving as a metaphor...to reach a destination one can drive left, or right, drive standard, semi automatic or automatic…drive with the hood down, window open…lots of options…

as i have acknowledged earlier that in major religion the followers all tend to have more similar goals than dissimilar ones…

and as followers they select their mode

as a muslim…my preoccupation these days is not other practitioners…i am disturbed and concerned with what happens in my religion…the hijacking of it by a vocal, vested, misinterpreting minority…and in my one man jehad other world citizens and religions do not figure as much…some day...hope to rectify that...

temporal ji,

I have been attending a gurdwara for the last couple of months. I like the atmosphere there, and I love the bani, although I am just learning to get a hang of the cermonies. It`s an amazingly peaceful place. Never thought I would be able to sit through three-hour long sessions of religious discussions without getting bored. Just bought locally produced Jap Ji Sahib CDs. Five bucks a set!

With a couple of friends I have been discussing the basics of East Asian Buddhism. It`s fascinating, and I don`t think I fully understand it. The mindset there appears to be a great mix of the Chinese and Indian approches to life. I did not know, for instance, that female Buddhas were so popular in some of these parts, or even that Angkor vaat has been cared for by Buddhist monks, or the belief that through good action and by following the right path one could turn into a Buddha! What a beautiful concept for those willing to open their hearts to wisdom and goodness flowing in from every direction.

kaalchakra:

I am amazed at your interactions with temporal. As a long-time chowkie, you must know that he has never claimed his religion to be superior to others` and that he is a complete believer in tolerance -I don`t know if he would approve the word `acceptance` - of all faiths.

satyamvada:

To me there are several difference between Hinduism and Abrahmic religions, not jsut the concept of God.

When people say that all relgions are basically the same or similar, this can be true only wrt Abrahmic religions on the one side and the Indic faiths on the other; as far as the two systems, I see more contrast than similarities.

Yesterday, I went to someone`s new house for a havan ceremony and another difference hit me for the first time, and I am surprised that I did not observe it earier. Hindus generally pray to their God/gods for health, happiness, prosperity and to show them the right path and for peace for themselves and the whole world. In Islam, it is as if the Hindus` prayers have been answered by God and he has provided them in the qur`an an instructions manual for health, happiness, peace and prosperity and for relationship among people and communities.

temporal,

`` am disturbed and concerned with what happens in my religion…the hijacking of it by a vocal, vested, misinterpreting minority…``

....... i hear you and everyone else who is now proclaiming that islam is a religion of peace and the greatest thing since seedless medina dates ............ but have you ever considered the possibility that the people might have been hijacked by the religion ? ....... if we accept that possibility it might lead to meaningful reform instead of trite platitudes ........ just a thought ........

the hijacking .......


gabby : allah mian, do you know that last religion you sent down to man on earth .....

allah: you mean, the one i sent down to joe smith in utah .......

gabby: ha, ha, very funny !......no, no, you know perfectly well that that idiocy was a farce