South Asia’s Clarence Darrow

Re: # 131

{{These are people whose educated ones represented by Romair have lost everything in a single generation - their language, their culture, their kashmiriyat - and still enthusiastically declare that they will vote for Pakistan with both hands, just because it is an islamic country.}}

And WHY should INDIA put up with the fact they THEY screwed up!?...You want to lose that ENCHANTED valley to THOSE ba*tards?....MY ancestral shrines are THERE...When my aging parents went to Amarnath & Manasarvoer ,last yr; they went back through the VALLEY...

WHY?
My dad said ``our roots.....our genetic identity is/are in the valley``...

TRUST ME! These b*stards like Sala-somethin-uddin (et all Romairians) DONT share...they will make it as F*cked up as Azaaaaaaad Kashmir....ONLY for Islaaaamist dukkars

{{{India will be stronger politically, economically and morally if it let go of Kashmir.}}}

MORALLY...MORALLY?!!! Those DUKKARS in the West....with their MORAL 58 yrs of blighted history..... have no LEG to stand on when they spit upon the face of the Holy Prophet(pbuh)...REPEATEDLY.... & then have the BALLS...to stand in MORAL judgement of us pagans....

IMHO...even Allah Himself has abandoned those dukkars

Allah Hafiz

The Kashmiris have another argument they believe the repeated rigged elections were carried out by the Indian (i.e. hindu) govts because they didnt trust them i.e. because they were muslims (i.e. this wouldnt have happened if they were hindus), so when they didnt trust them and installed puppets because of their religion why should the Kashmiris be apologetic about it.

But the JKLF neither ever declared a Jihad nor wants the establishment of a theocratic state. Neither did the JKLF support merger with Pakistan. Yasin Malik and Shabbir Shah couldnt be described as jihadists by any stretch. Did any Anglo indian support the Indian Independence movement? why would they they always feared the natives coming to power, so why would Pandits?

the Kashmiri movement is not as secular or leftist as the PLO or LTTE but a large onus of that lies on the ISI and Pak army who injected that colour of Jihad through front organisations (there was no other way to get a guy from Punjab or afghanistan to give his life. Yet the majority of the fighters by the Indian security forces own figures are kashmiris which is surprising because the Kashmiris were known for their docileness before this, they had been ruled by Sikhs, afghans, mughals, dogras and as they put it Indians i.e. every body but kashmiris themselves.

Yet the common kashmiris I have heard all would like to see the pandits back, though some add that pandits were informers for indian security forces.

Re: # 129
hindvi-saab,

{{Some of the points u have raised such as whether a country should consist of many conjoined units or seperate ones, on how to compare the condition of Indian Muslims to those of pakistanis etc require a detailed response which i cant give right now.}}

Foggetaboutit .....sir!!!!
You will be WASTING your time...

See See...the REEEAAAAL problem with ``Miltry-intelligence`` AKA Azaaaad Kashmiri non-existant BHEJA....is that he`s HOPING AGAINST HOPE that he will regain his ancestral property in Srinagar....

Evidently, SOME of his enlightened ancestors bought Jinnah`s bs & opted to become land of pure(ans)....Oooops! BIIIIIIIIIG mish-take!!!

Ever since that; this magnificent speciman has been praying that ``enslaved`` Kashmir will become Azaaaaaaaad.....(preferable part of his beloved Pay-kes-tan)....

NOT if MOIS Kashmiri pandit ancestors can help it!!!

PS....his IDIOTIC brothers born in Englistan are reeeeeaaaaaaly helping his dying cause...by dying (& killing innocent Brits) in the process.....
NICE GOING!!! Azaaaaaaad Kashmiri BUTT-head-/DICK-less wonders:)))!

PPS: OFCOURSE!...not just HE...but the WHOLE WORLD is thankful those suckers feel ``better off`` in Land of Pure-bs...
WE DONT WANT ``EM BACK!!!!!!!

hindvi:

``Of what I have been able to gauge they want azadi, a Kashmiri nation, which hasnt existed since the time of Akbar.``

If they wanted Azadi, they wouldn`t have started their movement by ethnically cleansing fellow Kashmiris: We have a tendency to blame cross-border terrorism but all this happened when the movement was led by Imanullah`s JKLF. True nationaism based movements, like those of Palestinians and Tamil Elam (which I do not support, btw) ensure minority representation, some of the most vocal proponents of Palestine and LTTE are christians; have you ever seen a non-muslim spokesperson for Kashmiri separatists? The emphasis on Azadi has come after they learnt that there is no support for jihad-based separation in the international circles. I wouldn`t be surprised if they are now able to buy some non-muslim spokesperson also to lend an aura of respectability.

Re: # 67
Amit: do you realize that your proposal is tantamount to succumbing to blackmail and threats?

Kashmiris have absolutely no desire to go to Pakistan despite what ever rishta they may have. Of what I have been able to gauge they want azadi, a Kashmiri nation, which hasnt existed since the time of Akbar.

hindvi#128:

Maulana Azad says in his ``India Wins Freedom`` that some Muslims in Delhi thought that Jamma Masjid would be in Pakistan and Chandni Chowk in India. I doubt however if people were that naive.

amit:

I support your suggestion that India should get rid of the valley but for a different reason. It`s not worth it. India has spent an enormous amount of energy and resources in trying to keep Kashmir. Kashmiris could get free education right up to the university level and their food was subsidised (I dont know if this is still the case). The State government raises only 20% of its budget 80% is paid for the Indian government. Despite this, there is no evidence that India has been able to win the hearts of a significant proportion of Muslims.

If it were a simple movement of independence of an oppressed Kashmiri people, India would have succeeded long ago. But what it is dealing with is an islamic jihad under the slogan of ``Pakistan se rishta kya, la ilaha lil allah``. These are people who have ethnically cleansed Muzaffarabad of its entire sikh-hindu population and almost repeated the same in the valley itself. These are people whose educated ones represented by Romair have lost everything in a single generation - their language, their culture, their kashmiriyat - and still enthusiastically declare that they will vote for Pakistan with both hands, just because it is an islamic country.

India will be stronger politically, economically and morally if it let go of Kashmir.

Re: # 123

I think Pakistanis should take some of the suggestions made by Salim more seriously. Once we accept the fact that there was nothing ``essentialistic`` about the Pakistani nationalism we should take a closer look at the thesis that PAkistani nationalism was borne out of the discourse of the intelligentsia which was moulded by religious idioms and relations of power that existed in the pre independence days.
Post independence the relations of power vis a vis other non muslim communities relented and the discourse influenced by religious idioms and themes became clearer in the new Pakistani state. It is still pervasive because these are essential to keep the idea of the imagined Pakistani nationhood alive. The moment the icons of Islamic history are removed from the imaginations of the Pakistani citizens, the imagined notion of Pakistani nationhood and solidarity amongst the culturally disparate citizens is going to collapse.
I doubt this is going to be acceptable to the ruling elites because they still try to maintain their control over PAkistani people through the imaginary notion of Pakistani nationhood with their theological babble ( ``Islamic principle?!``).

Romair

Some of the points u have raised such as whether a country should consist of many conjoined units or seperate ones, on how to compare the condition of Indian Muslims to those of pakistanis etc require a detailed response which i cant give right now.

the other points are purile, the majority of pakistanis thinking pakistan is a good thing doesnt make it so (by the way I think the majority of pakistanis dont think beyond their daily bread) because the majority of Indians who get the time to think actually think jinnah was a communal and evil man, that Islam is negative and muslims are troublemakers and are pampered that pakistan is an evil nation out to harm india and that kashmir had no problem before pakistan created one and that kashmiris want to live happily in india,that even if kashmir was left aside pakistan would still foment terrorism etc. do all of those things become true because they believe so? can ignorance become a virtue because the majority believe so?

And no body ``does`` anything for anybody, politics is all about mobilisation.


Kalchakra

a suggestion for u, in academics a scholar is judged by the number of citations, can go to JSTOR the largest electronic database for journals and check out the names i mentioned, for starters just check citations on Romila Thapar.

dost mittar

Most of the muslims of UP and the rest of India were taken for a ride by Jinnah, maybe he didnt expect the end himself. Bipin Chandra (a leftist historian!) and Ayesha Jalal explain how Jinnah never revealed what Pakistan meant and where Pakistan would be located till the end and that was done purposely because as soon as the muslims of UP, bihar, east punjab , delhi, west bengal, bombay,hyderabad etc would know the pakistan movement would fall apart they were afraid of the slow hindisation but they were not insane to leave the homes, properties and culture in whose defense they had supported the Muslim league.
My guess is they were expecting a pakistan which would lie within an india federation and to whose parliamenent they would be able to elect representatives.

The British helped create divisions and there were mistakes from the congress as well but thats another story.


Anil
your description of the jewish lady is very much like Manto`s description, full of life and brash. In his story this feisty lady gives her life trying to save the sikh protagonist. few people liked Patel , because apart fom being conservative he was also grumpy it was easier to like the liberal and suave Nehru. And there is no doubt that in his personal life Jinnah was extremely liberal and secular, after all he came from the Agha Khani community (Khojas). In his political life too he was but something change in the 1920s and 30s. I have some idea of what it was but its too long a story.


I will commence shortly a project of cateloging India`s march to partition and independence over the period 1857 to 1947 in my ilogs.

Re: # 116

Salim,


{{Have you forgotten the lesson of the Pandawas? Did the brothers not agree to share Draupatti? How can you be so selfishly inclined?}}

No we HAVENT forgotten!!!!
See what happened...as a result of that unholy union...their progeny became....Gasp! BIHARIS!!!

Re: # 116

Young Paki buck,

{{I am simply appalled at the utter selfishness, sheer self-interest, and abject Epicureanism displayed by many of my Indian friends here. Almost all of you have rejected the mere idea of reunification between India and Pakistan.
Have you no guilt?}}

GUILT?!!!

NONE WHATSOEVER!!!

Congressmen (& women) want to build a Berlin wall between the 2 countries.
The BJP wants to build a Berlin wall & throw the 160 million katlus left in India OVER the wall...right into the Land of the Pure...

{{Where is that self-sacrificing Indoo spirit? Did it die with the Mahatma?}}

YES! The Mahatma was good for satyagraha, botherly love & all that good stuff..He became an anachronism on 15th Aug 1947...Thank GOD (though I didnt want him killed) he DIED.
Otherwise we would all be eating mooli, drinking goat`s milk & spinning a Goddamned wheel outside our ashrams...&, ofcourse!, renouncing SEX...IDIOT!!

{{Come on, cousins, open your hearts (and your wallets :) ). Bring back the lost provinces, reunite your Bharat Mata. If Germans can do it, so can you. No one is more selfish than a German. Do you want to be known as even more cold-hearted than a Kraut? }}

Damn straight!
look who would be calling INDIANS...frikkin` deobandi/barevli/wahabbi/buttfuki mullahs, brainless prepuceless Paki katlus....
&....&...WORST of all....Azaaaaaaad Kashmiris!!!!

Re: # 99

{{This is my solution.

India keeps Ladakh and Hindu majority districts of Jammu and gives Muslim majority districts of Jammu to Pakistan.
India carves out Panun Kashmir out of the valley for Pandits and gives rest of the valley to Pakistan.
Pakistan gives couple of districts of Sindh to India.
Pakistan keeps POK and Northern Areas.``}}

Wah!
KYA SOLUTION mara!!!

How about LoC made International Border..KEEP your INCREDIBLY developed paradise called Azaaaaaad Kashmir. Any Indian Kashmiri muslim ``slave` will be given Azaaadi if he/she packs up his charpoy & hi-tails it to the Land of PURE milk & honey; west of the LOC & everybody gets on with life...

Re: # 87

Romair-mian,

{{Maulvis are a convenient scapegoat in Pakistan. They are a problem, at least in my opinion.}}

Yow! Is that why you felt ENERGISED when they won...you nitwit!

{{. This the first time in 55 years that they have political control at some level. Hence it is more than a bit unfair to blame them for past problems.}}

Your PAST problems STARTED about 20 yrs ago when that DUKKAR Zia came to power & gave mullahs power. Only IDIOTS like you ``spin`` that they have had power only recently...

{{That blame should be placed on groups that had the political power. These groups were the Army leadership and the feudal leadership......... }}

You FOGOT the WHITE ELEPHANT in the room.
Azaaaaaaaad Kashmiris...IMHO, THEY, more than anyone else, have hijacked & RUINED Pakistan...

{{Barring a few political leaders, maulvis are amongst the poorest section of the Pakistani soceity. The students attending the madrassahs are their because they are poor. Not because they are wealthy. If they had a chance to attend Aitchison etc., I am quite sure they would....... }}

Where do you think those wahabi Saudi dukkars put their money? Maddrassahs!

{{This is why I have always found it odd that retired govt. servants who left every govt. institution they touched in worse shape than they found it, yet became quite wealthy themselves, conveniently blame the maulvis for everything........ }}

Yeah! but corrupt as they are...it is the Goddamned maulvis that have destroyed Pakistan`s reputation in the eyes of the world. Heck, a govt civil servant may loot your country (so whats new?)...
BUT ...they dont..er..inspire young men to blow themselves off & take innocent human lives along with them...

{{All of us on Chowk, belong to this above crowd. Yet no one wants to talk about their own shortcomings and the skeletons in their own closets. Everyone conveniently passes the blame onto the maulvi, who has never held any of the above positions........}}

Before you condemn all Pakistanis on Chowk to your proverbial gutter...introspect on this ...
an Azaaaaad Kashmiri; who has been part of a rat infested institution called the Pakistan army is a cut ABOVE all these Paki sinners...

re:#116 by Salim_Chauhan
(Have you forgotten the lesson of the Pandawas? Did the brothers not agree to share Draupatti? How can you be so selfishly inclined? ...)
That was a good one.
BTW, i apologise for my past remarks about the nic that u had assumed. I would not have done it had i known u better. Still, it was stupid of me.
Sridhar