Will Pakistanis Listen and Act?

Good answers, ZahraJ. Now maybe Inquirer can apply them in India as well to end hindu terrorism of the kind promoted by Modi, Advani, Thakeray and other national leaders.

[4. wage jihad against those fanning hatred and preaching violence in society in the name of religion - CAN/SHOULD IT BE DONE? ]

That`s doable in an environment with a strong law and order system.

Unfortunately, that`s never been a forte of the Pakistani System. With that said, it`s not impossible to implement a plan addressing the above issue. It`s the matter of coming to a consensus and realizing what is that you want the world to recognize you for. Your political system? Your democratic values? Your military rule? Your strong traditional values? Your rigidity? Your lawlessness? What?

I have not heard Musharraf`s speeches in a long long time. While browsing through a few articles here and there, I found out that he has emphasized on the impression of Pakistan as a moderate country to the rest of the world vs. otherwise. That`s a big step - even if he only utters those words. In a country where lawlessness is rampant, the fact that Musharraf is still alive with all his idealistic and big ideas, is a miracle. He does need support from the rest of the world. He will never get 100% buy in from the masses. Points to ponder.

Note: This is one of the most valuable suggestions in your 7 points. I also think it will have a wider range of impact.

ferozk #195 This is getting a bit heavy for me, this stuff about drinking from the poisoned chalice. :-)

I think as a nation Pakistanis are second to none in terms of many cultural aspects. I have been to many countries, and I have not found a more hospitable, generous, intelligent, clean-living, good-humored and hard-working people than the ones we find in Pakistan.

When I referred to a failure of character, I was talking about the individual leaders. The logical question then is - is there a pattern to this failure in leadership. I think there is: After Ayub Khan every single Pakistani leader has been either a military man, or a creation of the military (Z.A.Bhutto was Ayub`s creation, BB was of course her dads creation both literally and figuretively, Sharif was Zia`s creation). And so, we have ``unwhetted leaders`` coming to power - while individuals representing the true Pakistani character (which is in fact very strong in my view) have been kept away by this dysfunctional ``system``.

7. Pakistan needs to rid itself of this equation with the religious leaders who are rarely sensible enough to understand the modern world. - DO YOU AGREE?

Yes, I do. I am not sure on the implementation strategy. I think the ignorance of the modern world is not a sin since there are many others besides the religious and fundamentalist muslim leaders. But the desire to finish your life as well as others since you do not have much in your life and they are moving ahead is criminal! There should be a strong penalty for that.

Example 1: Lancaster, Pennsylvania has a decent population of Amish men and women who do not believe in modern technology/world.
Example 2: I ran into a very charming guy with cute blue eyes and faded curly blonde hair during my recent travels who was from the fundamentalist sect of Protestants - Jehovah`s Witnesses. He told me so much weird stuff on what his parents believed and how they deprived him of early education since they did not believe in modern world and its change. He came out of that shell to move ahead in life. Well, he called his sect a fundamentalist sect - rigid and very hard to change gears from one world to another.

Both the above categories live their lives in their own world without bothering others. So, you cannot say that only the Pakistani Religious Leaders have to equip themselves with the modern world. In my opinion, the Pakistani Religious Leaders need to learn to live with people who have different aspirations in life. Not all Muslims think and believe in the same course of life. If you want to live in a cabin on a mountain meditating day in and day out since you do not believe in the modern world then that`s fine. It`s fine as long as you do not go and kill others who have things to do in their lives.

Monks also do not believe in the facilities and trends of the modern world. I am reading quite a few things on them and have studied some museums at length discovering their lifestyle and its cycle.

....

Inquirer #201 Perhaps you should provide the answers to these questions.

1. UK and Pakistan needed to take ‘serious measures’ urgently to eradicate the menace of terrorism - WHAT CAN BE THESE?

- Focusing on the root cause of the problem within Pakistan. You do not sound like a visionary with the choice of word, ``eradicate``. You come across very emotional by using such a term. Pakistani Government needs to have a plan to address these issues. And the world needs to give reasonable amount of time for implementation. Probably, the rest of the world needs to contemplate on how to provide assistance to Pakistan in addressing the madressa issue. Probably, there should be teachers from all over the world who teach English and the rest of the necessary subjects to these madressa going youth. The locals should be trained by the people from diverse cultures on the art of teaching. Having lack of diversity is a big issue for the Pakistani Youth. For Sunnis to come across Shias and vice versa is not exposure to diversity.

Attending to the issues of the current day and age youth will resolve many inherent frustrations that lead them to kill themselves and those around. Also, the Pakistani Government ought to provide more opportunities in the business (profit and non-profit sector) to the low-income/idle youth for exposure and experience. In addition to that, the concept of hardwork needs to be appreciated and well rewarded. These are basics. Neither the Brits nor the Americans can inject these in any nation. There has to be a conscious effort to inculcate the above mentioned in one`s social structure. The economically poor class needs to have more control on their lives and be more independent financially through their own efforts than relying on a madressa budget.

Rest Later,

Re: # 201

Thank you :)

Re: # 191

Inquirer:

[As for the asterisks, don`t you think they are the prettiest symbols on the keyboard to separate individual ideas?!]

**I concur with your sentiments :)**

*** I can see beauty and spontaneity emitting from right and left. ***

I wish somebody would address the issues at hand as outlined in the article.
For example:
1. UK and Pakistan needed to take ‘serious measures’ urgently to eradicate the menace of terrorism - WHAT CAN BE THESE?
2. one prong to be delivered by the Muslim world and the other by the West. - DEFINE THESE.
3. “Banned organizations will not be allowed to collect any kind of donations and action will be taken against those giving hate-containing sermons in mosques on Fridays” - WHAT IS THE CURRENT PROCEDURE AND HOW TO CORRECT IT.
4. wage jihad against those fanning hatred and preaching violence in society in the name of religion - CAN/SHOULD IT BE DONE?
5. vote for those who wanted to steer the country towards progress and prosperity - WHAT INDEED ARE THE OPTIONS?
6. efforts should be made to put the Ummah on road to progress - IS IT AT ALL POSSIBLE, IF SO HOW?
7. Pakistan needs to rid itself of this equation with the religious leaders who are rarely sensible enough to understand the modern world. - DO YOU AGREE?
Instead of bickering and hurling insults on each other and imagined guilties.

I agree with Tahmed that Pakistanis should have the right to self determination for themselves before advocating it for Kashmiris. I would like to add that right to self determination should be for mature and responsible people(s). There should be a proven track record of tolerance and commitment to democracy. After all rights come after responsibilities. Beside those who do not respect others` right to life lose any right to rights.

Kashmir`s problem and freedom struggle is religion based and the demands and solutions are also religious based. Everyone knows what happened when a nation was created based on religious demands in 47.

The folly should not be repeated again. Kashmiri muslims in general have no desire to include non muslim Kashmiris.

Kashmiri freedom may bring freedom to Kashmiri muslims and solve THEIR problems ONLY. That won`t end the Paki/Indian/Hindu/Muslim animosities.

Kashmir is just an EXCUSE to stir Kanjarpana in India. If Kashmir is given independence, Pakis will come up with an excuse in NEFA, UP, etc. - just like Palestine has been used an excuse for worldwide terrorism by muslim fanatics and their billion or so supporters. Now that the Palestine issue/conflict has cooled, Iraq and Afghanistan are new excuses to wage terror in every corner of the world.

Re: # 196

Good questions.

Ciao

Re: # 184

I am in favor of allowing the Kashmiris decide their future, but I do not see how they can decide their future, when their future is made a pawn in the game of political egoism, between India and Pakistan. As long as Pakistan supports the militancy in Kashmir, it denies the Kashmiris a right to decide their future.

I agree, with you that it is the wish of one to dominate another that causes misery in the world and this principle is true to spousal violence to international wars and is also applicable to the intolerance caused by one religion, any religion, thinking that it is better than other religions.

I do not have the morality or the right to decide another`s future and in the same sense, I do not have the moral right or the political right to condemn a person to death, because of the nature of my personal politics. If I did not have the right to make this suggestion of making the LoC into an international border and I was wrong, then it is also not right to favor a course of action, which results in the death of people and by favoring such a policy, which regardless of its good intentions causes suffering, its amounts to deciding other peoples` future or making suggestions about their future. :)

``Let every human being live in freedom, based on his/her own wishes. That is a goal we should all be aiming for. Our aim should not be to impose our solutions onto others.........``

I totally agree, with you, but the Pakistani army does not seem to understand this advice!

The solution to the Kashmir problem is right in front of everyone and I agree, with you, but they cannot decide what is right for them, because the Pakistani army thinks it knows what is best for Kashmir. :).

``So, at best, Feroze has a right to suggest that Pakistan should not support the Kashmiri`s freedom struggle. But I don`t think he has the moral right to decide their fate...........``

Neither does any one have the moral right to allow the killings in Kashmir to persist and when such a policy is favored that results in deaths, it is also the same as deciding Kashmiris future and is also wrong. :)

Ciao

Ferzok

Only a handful of people lie. The rest, the vast majority, simply make the mistake of believing them. The baffling question is: why is the latter group sometimes simply not able to completely walk out of the dark prison of the lie? Why do people become so emotionally committed to lies that they fight tooth and nail when lies are exposed to them, even after they repeatedly suffer for their lies? Why is someone who tries to tell them the truth becomes the object of hatred, and the teller of lies, the one great beloved?

To answer these, it may be more useful to focus on group-level processes than on character.

Tahmed once hinted at the notion of culture....which may or may not be a relevant social determinant. None of us tried to get deeper into that.

Re: # 186

The failure has not been of a character, but rather the failure to recognize the true nature of the character itself. There is no harm in uttering a lie and but no one forced us to believe the lie and when we did such on our own free will, we gave up the right to blame our leaders. We have to start holding ourself responsible for our actions.

Our problem is one of conformity and we always conformed, with deception, to avoid the unpleasantness of stating the truth. The truth is that, we accepted denial as our reality and in ignoring reality, we believed that the nobility of our intentions and actions, would outweigh the consequences of our mistakes. Now, the wages of our sins are upon us and we have no means to pay them, because we knowingly morally bankrupted ourselves by mortaging our nation`s future on the politics of falsehoods.

Ahmed sahib, when a person gives me poison and I drink that poison and as a result die, the action, which caused my death was mine alone and I cannot blame the person for giving me the posion, can I? It was my decision to drink it and therefore, the finality of the act was a suicide and no matter, how much you claim it was a murder, the reality will not be fudged with the semantics of the manner in which the death occured. :)

Ciao

Re: # 183

It seems that you and the Indians are counting on the wrong people.

Ciao