Will Pakistanis Listen and Act?
Sushil Bhatnagar July 22, 2005
#193 Posted by ajeya on July 28, 2005 8:14:10 am
Re:#190 by cayenne
Check out the article ``The last days of Londonistan`` that came out in the BBC News website on July 27th.
One of the things it highlights is what I have been saying all along - that INDIANS HAVE BEEN FAR MORE PATIENT AND TOLERANT THAN THE WEST.
Only 1 person dead in the Netherlands - Theo Van Gogh - and the whole country is rapidly changing its pro-immigration stance.
``Londonistan`` was nurturing jihadi elements because they themselves were unaffected - the jihadis were killing people in India - only gave the British an opportunity to pontificate, and people like Farzana and tahmed32 to say - ``see, you Indians should TRY to be like the goray log``. But now since the snakes they gave asylum to and nurtured are biting them in the a$$, they are rapidly rewriting all those laws that radical muslims like Farzana and tahmed32 loved to quote.
The other day they were interviewing some neighbors of one of the London bombers on CNN. One of them looked Paki, and tried being truthful unlike the other Muslims interviewed. According to him suicide bombings were completely justified depending on the circumstances. The police packed him into a van and took him to the police station for interrogation. (Can you imagine the same done to Farzana in India?)
So I ask - if 52 people dead is enough for goray log to enact laws to throw out people who commit offences such as ``indirect incitement to terrorism`` and ``acts preparatory to terrorism``, then why can`t we, after more than 50,000 dead, enact laws to throw out thousands of Mullahs and Separatists in Kashmir who do this all day, AS WELL AS PEOPLE LIKE FARZANA?
NOW THAT THE GORAY LOG HAVE SHOWN US THE WAY, AND WE ARE THEREFORE CLEARED FOR DOING SO, COULD WE PLEASE ENACT LAWS TO DO THIS JUST LIKE THE GORAY LOG? BECAUSE NOW NOBODY CAN CRITICIZE US. BECAUSE THE GORAY LOG, WHO ALWAYS SET THE STANDARDS OF WHAT IS RIGHT, HAVE NOW DONE THAT THEMSELVES, AFTER A MUCH SMALLER NUMBER OF PEOPLE DEAD.
CAN WE DO IT, PLEASE?
SEE, THE GORAY LOG ARE DOING IT TOO.
PLEASE?
Check out the article ``The last days of Londonistan`` that came out in the BBC News website on July 27th.
One of the things it highlights is what I have been saying all along - that INDIANS HAVE BEEN FAR MORE PATIENT AND TOLERANT THAN THE WEST.
Only 1 person dead in the Netherlands - Theo Van Gogh - and the whole country is rapidly changing its pro-immigration stance.
``Londonistan`` was nurturing jihadi elements because they themselves were unaffected - the jihadis were killing people in India - only gave the British an opportunity to pontificate, and people like Farzana and tahmed32 to say - ``see, you Indians should TRY to be like the goray log``. But now since the snakes they gave asylum to and nurtured are biting them in the a$$, they are rapidly rewriting all those laws that radical muslims like Farzana and tahmed32 loved to quote.
The other day they were interviewing some neighbors of one of the London bombers on CNN. One of them looked Paki, and tried being truthful unlike the other Muslims interviewed. According to him suicide bombings were completely justified depending on the circumstances. The police packed him into a van and took him to the police station for interrogation. (Can you imagine the same done to Farzana in India?)
So I ask - if 52 people dead is enough for goray log to enact laws to throw out people who commit offences such as ``indirect incitement to terrorism`` and ``acts preparatory to terrorism``, then why can`t we, after more than 50,000 dead, enact laws to throw out thousands of Mullahs and Separatists in Kashmir who do this all day, AS WELL AS PEOPLE LIKE FARZANA?
NOW THAT THE GORAY LOG HAVE SHOWN US THE WAY, AND WE ARE THEREFORE CLEARED FOR DOING SO, COULD WE PLEASE ENACT LAWS TO DO THIS JUST LIKE THE GORAY LOG? BECAUSE NOW NOBODY CAN CRITICIZE US. BECAUSE THE GORAY LOG, WHO ALWAYS SET THE STANDARDS OF WHAT IS RIGHT, HAVE NOW DONE THAT THEMSELVES, AFTER A MUCH SMALLER NUMBER OF PEOPLE DEAD.
CAN WE DO IT, PLEASE?
SEE, THE GORAY LOG ARE DOING IT TOO.
PLEASE?
reply to this interact
write a new interact
add to favorites
flag objectionable content
#192 Posted by arjun_m on July 28, 2005 7:43:31 am
so where`s the freedom loving capt clueless now?
ASADABAD, Afghanistan Telephone and power lines haven`t reached the villages clinging to the craggy mountainsides of Kunar province. Digital phones and computer chips are even further beyond the shepherds` imaginations.
So when sophisticated bombs detonated by long-range cordless phones began blowing up under U.S. and Afghan military vehicles on mountain tracks, investigators knew they had to search elsewhere for the masterminds.
Afghan officials immediately focused on nearby Pakistan and its military, whose Inter-Services Intelligence agency helped create the Taliban in the early 1990s and provided training and equipment to help the Muslim extremists win control over most of the country.
Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf joined the Bush administration`s war on terrorism and publicly turned against the Taliban immediately after the Sept. 11 attacks. But Afghan officials allege that Taliban and allied fighters who fled to Pakistan after the U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan in late 2001 are learning new, more lethal tactics from the Pakistani military at numerous training bases.
``Pakistan is lying,`` said Lt. Sayed Anwar, acting head of Afghanistan`s counter-terrorism department. ``We have very correct reports from their areas. We have our intelligence agents inside Pakistan`s border as well.
``If Pakistan tells the truth, the problems will stop in Afghanistan. They say they are friends of Americans, and yet they order these people to kill Americans.``
At least 38 U.S. troops have died from hostile fire in Afghanistan this year, higher than the annual combat death toll for any year since the invasion.
Musharraf has denied that his military supports the Taliban or any other Afghan insurgents and the Bush administration and U.S. military spokesmen continue to praise Pakistan`s role in combating terrorism.
Pakistan`s army recently added 4,000 troops to the 70,000 soldiers patrolling the rugged, nearly 1,500-mile, border between the countries in what it says is a determined effort to stop infiltrations of Afghanistan.
Pakistani Maj. Gen. Shaukat Sultan, a military spokesman, said it was ridiculous to suggest that Pakistan had a secret operation to train insurgents to build complex electronic bombs.
``This is just a figment of some absurd mind, nothing else,`` Sultan said.
High-tech bombs similar to those being found in Afghanistan have killed Pakistani soldiers too, he said. More than 250 Pakistani troops have died in border operations in the last year, Sultan said.
``We haven`t found any sanctuary, so far, where such items probably could be made,`` he said, adding that Pakistan`s military didn`t know where the sophisticated bomb-making technology was coming from.
Anwar, the Afghan official, who has worked in intelligence for 27 years, acknowledged that there was no smoking gun linking insurgents in Afghanistan to Pakistan`s military intelligence.
Yet despite the Pakistani military`s assertions, increasing numbers of guerrillas are crossing into eastern and southern Afghanistan, Anwar and other Afghan officials said.
``Last year, the enemy wasn`t able to attack our checkpoints or plant so many mines,`` Anwar said. ``This year, they have become very strong.``
Anwar said reports from intelligence agents across the border and 50 captured prisoners describe an extensive network of militant training camps in areas of Pakistan`s federally administered North Waziristan tribal area where government forces are firmly in control.
Tauda China, a village in the area, which is home to Pushtun tribes, is the site of one camp where Inter-Services Intelligence agents trained militants, Anwar said. He alleged that there were as many as six other camps in the surrounding valley, which is closed to outsiders and guarded by Pakistani troops and armed Afghans.
``Our agents have been there,`` Anwar said. ``They tried to enter the valley and the soldiers didn`t allow them.``
Zulfiqar Ali, a Pakistani journalist who freelances for the Los Angeles Times, recently reported that at least some training camps that were closed on Musharraf`s orders have been reopened.
The government denies that there are training camps. But Ali, who also writes for the Pakistani magazine the Herald, visited one camp and found armed militants with fresh recruits as young as 13 undergoing 18-day ``ideological orientation`` and weapons training. Several sources said 13 militant camps had been reactivated in the Mansehra region alone in the first week of May.
Militants said their official funding had continued during Musharraf`s ban, but the camps had been abandoned and falling apart until this spring.
``Our transport fleet is back, electricity has been restored and the communications system is in place,`` a militant guide reportedly boasted to Ali.
The reported reopening of militant training camps in Pakistan coincides with the discovery of the high-tech bombs in Afghanistan.
Two months ago, Afghan security forces discovered six high-tech bombs in the town of Sarowbi, east of Kabul, the Afghan capital. The triggers consisted of long-range cordless phones attached with black electrical tape to electronic boxes, which Anwar believes convert the ringing phone`s signal into an electrical charge, detonating the explosives.
``These phones are Pakistani-made phones,`` he said.
Since March, when heavy winter snow in the insurgents` hide-outs began to melt, the Taliban and its allies have been intensifying attacks on military and civilian targets in Afghanistan.
In addition to the rising number of U.S. deaths, about 700 people, including Afghan civilians, soldiers and insurgents, have died in the escalated fighting.
In late June, suspected Taliban guerrillas ambushed a four-man Navy SEAL reconnaissance unit high in the Hindu Kush mountain range of Kunar province. Only one of the SEALs survived the attack, and only by good fortune, according to the Pentagon`s account. A rocket-propelled grenade blast knocked him down a mountainside, and despite his wounds he managed to escape to a village that gave him shelter.
Sixteen U.S. troops sent to rescue the SEALs died when insurgents shot down their helicopter with a rocket-propelled grenade.
Lt. Naqibullah Nooristani, operations commander for Afghan troops fighting alongside U.S. forces in Kunar, said the Taliban and its allies were proving so resilient because they were receiving improved training and equipment just across the border in Pakistan.
The guerrillas who escaped after attacking the U.S. troops left behind trash that suggests they have a good supply chain, Nooristani said.
``When our soldiers got up on the mountain, we saw empty cans of Pepsi and old running shoes, which means they changed into new ones for the operation,`` the lieutenant said, sitting on the edge of a cot where he sleeps next to his desk.
``They have Pepsis in the mountains while I can`t find them here in the city,`` Nooristani said. ``That means they are well supported.``
The lieutenant estimated there were 300 Taliban fighters just in the Pec valley northwest of Asadabad, the provincial capital. Thousands more are fighting in several other border provinces in eastern and southern Afghanistan, Afghan officials said.
Police recently found four remote-controlled bombs in the luggage of an Afghan taxi passenger traveling on the main road from Jalalabad, near the Pakistani border, said Anwar, the Afghan counter-terrorism chief. The detonators were small, silver-colored explosive capsules that were made in Pakistan, he said.
The man transporting the bomb components, Sanaullah Khan, was from Parwan province, north of Kabul.
Under interrogation, Khan said he had entered Afghanistan with four Pakistani men after receiving training at a camp in Shamshatu, near Peshawar, Pakistan, Anwar said, reading from an interrogator`s report.
Khan provided few details about the training camp, Anwar said.
Shamshatu is the site of a large U.N. camp for Afghan refugees. As recently as this spring, Pakistani newspaper reports said 90% of the camp`s residents were loyal to Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, a former prime minister and warlord whose Hizb-i-Islami militia is now allied with the Taliban against the U.S.-led coalition in Afghanistan.
Khan told investigators he had received the explosive devices found in his bag from a Pakistani whom he identified as Fazal Rabi. He said Rabi lived at the camp and was ``very well connected with Al Qaeda,`` according to the interrogation report.
Lt. Gen. Moin Faqir, who oversees the Afghan army`s operations as central corps commander, said his forces first started seeing bombs with computer components six months ago in Kunar province.
``It is not easy to use these mines unless you are well trained for it,`` he said.
Unlike conventional land mines that have plagued Afghanistan for decades, these new devices are not triggered by the pressure of wheels rolling over them, Faqir said.
Instead, they are designed to explode directly under the vehicle`s passenger cab, increasing the chances that a relatively small explosion would maim or kill. They are also easier to conceal than regular land mines.
Faqir said he could not say with certainty who was providing the equipment and training to build the new bombs.
``I think we all know where these mines are from,`` he added with a pained smile.
The Afghan general chose his words carefully. A uniformed U.S. military advisor was sitting on a couch next to him, taking notes on everything he said. Without using names, Faqir made it clear he thought the source of the sophisticated bombs was an enemy of the worst kind because it pretended to be an ally.
``No one should have two faces with his friend,`` he said, adding that such people would suffer shame and destruction. ``Once you shake hands with somebody, you should stand with him till the end.``
ASADABAD, Afghanistan Telephone and power lines haven`t reached the villages clinging to the craggy mountainsides of Kunar province. Digital phones and computer chips are even further beyond the shepherds` imaginations.
So when sophisticated bombs detonated by long-range cordless phones began blowing up under U.S. and Afghan military vehicles on mountain tracks, investigators knew they had to search elsewhere for the masterminds.
Afghan officials immediately focused on nearby Pakistan and its military, whose Inter-Services Intelligence agency helped create the Taliban in the early 1990s and provided training and equipment to help the Muslim extremists win control over most of the country.
Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf joined the Bush administration`s war on terrorism and publicly turned against the Taliban immediately after the Sept. 11 attacks. But Afghan officials allege that Taliban and allied fighters who fled to Pakistan after the U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan in late 2001 are learning new, more lethal tactics from the Pakistani military at numerous training bases.
``Pakistan is lying,`` said Lt. Sayed Anwar, acting head of Afghanistan`s counter-terrorism department. ``We have very correct reports from their areas. We have our intelligence agents inside Pakistan`s border as well.
``If Pakistan tells the truth, the problems will stop in Afghanistan. They say they are friends of Americans, and yet they order these people to kill Americans.``
At least 38 U.S. troops have died from hostile fire in Afghanistan this year, higher than the annual combat death toll for any year since the invasion.
Musharraf has denied that his military supports the Taliban or any other Afghan insurgents and the Bush administration and U.S. military spokesmen continue to praise Pakistan`s role in combating terrorism.
Pakistan`s army recently added 4,000 troops to the 70,000 soldiers patrolling the rugged, nearly 1,500-mile, border between the countries in what it says is a determined effort to stop infiltrations of Afghanistan.
Pakistani Maj. Gen. Shaukat Sultan, a military spokesman, said it was ridiculous to suggest that Pakistan had a secret operation to train insurgents to build complex electronic bombs.
``This is just a figment of some absurd mind, nothing else,`` Sultan said.
High-tech bombs similar to those being found in Afghanistan have killed Pakistani soldiers too, he said. More than 250 Pakistani troops have died in border operations in the last year, Sultan said.
``We haven`t found any sanctuary, so far, where such items probably could be made,`` he said, adding that Pakistan`s military didn`t know where the sophisticated bomb-making technology was coming from.
Anwar, the Afghan official, who has worked in intelligence for 27 years, acknowledged that there was no smoking gun linking insurgents in Afghanistan to Pakistan`s military intelligence.
Yet despite the Pakistani military`s assertions, increasing numbers of guerrillas are crossing into eastern and southern Afghanistan, Anwar and other Afghan officials said.
``Last year, the enemy wasn`t able to attack our checkpoints or plant so many mines,`` Anwar said. ``This year, they have become very strong.``
Anwar said reports from intelligence agents across the border and 50 captured prisoners describe an extensive network of militant training camps in areas of Pakistan`s federally administered North Waziristan tribal area where government forces are firmly in control.
Tauda China, a village in the area, which is home to Pushtun tribes, is the site of one camp where Inter-Services Intelligence agents trained militants, Anwar said. He alleged that there were as many as six other camps in the surrounding valley, which is closed to outsiders and guarded by Pakistani troops and armed Afghans.
``Our agents have been there,`` Anwar said. ``They tried to enter the valley and the soldiers didn`t allow them.``
Zulfiqar Ali, a Pakistani journalist who freelances for the Los Angeles Times, recently reported that at least some training camps that were closed on Musharraf`s orders have been reopened.
The government denies that there are training camps. But Ali, who also writes for the Pakistani magazine the Herald, visited one camp and found armed militants with fresh recruits as young as 13 undergoing 18-day ``ideological orientation`` and weapons training. Several sources said 13 militant camps had been reactivated in the Mansehra region alone in the first week of May.
Militants said their official funding had continued during Musharraf`s ban, but the camps had been abandoned and falling apart until this spring.
``Our transport fleet is back, electricity has been restored and the communications system is in place,`` a militant guide reportedly boasted to Ali.
The reported reopening of militant training camps in Pakistan coincides with the discovery of the high-tech bombs in Afghanistan.
Two months ago, Afghan security forces discovered six high-tech bombs in the town of Sarowbi, east of Kabul, the Afghan capital. The triggers consisted of long-range cordless phones attached with black electrical tape to electronic boxes, which Anwar believes convert the ringing phone`s signal into an electrical charge, detonating the explosives.
``These phones are Pakistani-made phones,`` he said.
Since March, when heavy winter snow in the insurgents` hide-outs began to melt, the Taliban and its allies have been intensifying attacks on military and civilian targets in Afghanistan.
In addition to the rising number of U.S. deaths, about 700 people, including Afghan civilians, soldiers and insurgents, have died in the escalated fighting.
In late June, suspected Taliban guerrillas ambushed a four-man Navy SEAL reconnaissance unit high in the Hindu Kush mountain range of Kunar province. Only one of the SEALs survived the attack, and only by good fortune, according to the Pentagon`s account. A rocket-propelled grenade blast knocked him down a mountainside, and despite his wounds he managed to escape to a village that gave him shelter.
Sixteen U.S. troops sent to rescue the SEALs died when insurgents shot down their helicopter with a rocket-propelled grenade.
Lt. Naqibullah Nooristani, operations commander for Afghan troops fighting alongside U.S. forces in Kunar, said the Taliban and its allies were proving so resilient because they were receiving improved training and equipment just across the border in Pakistan.
The guerrillas who escaped after attacking the U.S. troops left behind trash that suggests they have a good supply chain, Nooristani said.
``When our soldiers got up on the mountain, we saw empty cans of Pepsi and old running shoes, which means they changed into new ones for the operation,`` the lieutenant said, sitting on the edge of a cot where he sleeps next to his desk.
``They have Pepsis in the mountains while I can`t find them here in the city,`` Nooristani said. ``That means they are well supported.``
The lieutenant estimated there were 300 Taliban fighters just in the Pec valley northwest of Asadabad, the provincial capital. Thousands more are fighting in several other border provinces in eastern and southern Afghanistan, Afghan officials said.
Police recently found four remote-controlled bombs in the luggage of an Afghan taxi passenger traveling on the main road from Jalalabad, near the Pakistani border, said Anwar, the Afghan counter-terrorism chief. The detonators were small, silver-colored explosive capsules that were made in Pakistan, he said.
The man transporting the bomb components, Sanaullah Khan, was from Parwan province, north of Kabul.
Under interrogation, Khan said he had entered Afghanistan with four Pakistani men after receiving training at a camp in Shamshatu, near Peshawar, Pakistan, Anwar said, reading from an interrogator`s report.
Khan provided few details about the training camp, Anwar said.
Shamshatu is the site of a large U.N. camp for Afghan refugees. As recently as this spring, Pakistani newspaper reports said 90% of the camp`s residents were loyal to Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, a former prime minister and warlord whose Hizb-i-Islami militia is now allied with the Taliban against the U.S.-led coalition in Afghanistan.
Khan told investigators he had received the explosive devices found in his bag from a Pakistani whom he identified as Fazal Rabi. He said Rabi lived at the camp and was ``very well connected with Al Qaeda,`` according to the interrogation report.
Lt. Gen. Moin Faqir, who oversees the Afghan army`s operations as central corps commander, said his forces first started seeing bombs with computer components six months ago in Kunar province.
``It is not easy to use these mines unless you are well trained for it,`` he said.
Unlike conventional land mines that have plagued Afghanistan for decades, these new devices are not triggered by the pressure of wheels rolling over them, Faqir said.
Instead, they are designed to explode directly under the vehicle`s passenger cab, increasing the chances that a relatively small explosion would maim or kill. They are also easier to conceal than regular land mines.
Faqir said he could not say with certainty who was providing the equipment and training to build the new bombs.
``I think we all know where these mines are from,`` he added with a pained smile.
The Afghan general chose his words carefully. A uniformed U.S. military advisor was sitting on a couch next to him, taking notes on everything he said. Without using names, Faqir made it clear he thought the source of the sophisticated bombs was an enemy of the worst kind because it pretended to be an ally.
``No one should have two faces with his friend,`` he said, adding that such people would suffer shame and destruction. ``Once you shake hands with somebody, you should stand with him till the end.``
#191 Posted by Inquirer on July 28, 2005 6:24:47 am
Re: # 189, ZahraJ: Thanks for stating that you had problems only with the format of my presentation. I hope you agreed with the substance of what Musharraf had to say and my evaluations thereof.
As for responding to the presentation, I would refer you to my explanation of the format and the reason thereof to #180. You see, I believe it is harder (= more work) to respond/assess response to the normal essay format of an article because, then, it is more likely to talk cross purposes. This is particularly so for an evaluative article like mine. In the format I selected Musharraf is making a point and I am succinctly evaluating it. Now you as a reader on any issue can either agree/disagree with Musharraf or me or both. When I would assess your comment I would have to see which of the six possible positions is taken by you.
As for the asterisks, don`t you they are the prettiest symbols on the keyboard to separate individual ideas?!
As for responding to the presentation, I would refer you to my explanation of the format and the reason thereof to #180. You see, I believe it is harder (= more work) to respond/assess response to the normal essay format of an article because, then, it is more likely to talk cross purposes. This is particularly so for an evaluative article like mine. In the format I selected Musharraf is making a point and I am succinctly evaluating it. Now you as a reader on any issue can either agree/disagree with Musharraf or me or both. When I would assess your comment I would have to see which of the six possible positions is taken by you.
As for the asterisks, don`t you they are the prettiest symbols on the keyboard to separate individual ideas?!
#190 Posted by cayenne on July 28, 2005 1:21:12 am
I think the time is right for Pakistan to compromise and settle scores with India.Perception is often more damaging than reality and there has settled in the mind of the common man/woman of the world that Pakistan is a hotbed of islamic militancy.The recent London attacks have only deepened the perception.In the long run this can do damage to pakistan.It is the common man/woman be they in corporate, government and society who decide where they spend their money goes and where they invest.That is why India is riding high on the economic front.Everyone knows the many faults of India, but it is the common investor of the world who is investing in the development process of India, who is forcing their governments to reappraise their relationship , both politically and economically, with India.Government s can only offer a limited amount of aid and that too can be cut off at the whim of a bureaucrat.Credit to the indians for the assiduous cultivation of their democratic and open society impressions throughout the world.
What has pakistan to gain from associating with islamic militancy??.Nothing.Even islamic countries like Saudi Arabia are maintaining excellent relations with India and the volume of trade between Saudi and india is far higher than the same between Saudi and Pakistan.The saudis maintain and supply India`s petroleum reserves at negotiated rates , making it easier for india to spend resources searching for alternative sources of energy both at home and abroad.to By making peace with India , pakistan will send a strong signal to the rest of the world that they are a nation willing to compromise for the sake of peace and development and general harmony.I`m sure the indians will compromise too, for their stakes are much higher!!.They are on the threshold of going from a developing to a developed country and the process will take another ten years atleast to mature.They also need peace to ensure a smooth transition of their social and economic progress in this regard.I hope this process occurs!!.
What has pakistan to gain from associating with islamic militancy??.Nothing.Even islamic countries like Saudi Arabia are maintaining excellent relations with India and the volume of trade between Saudi and india is far higher than the same between Saudi and Pakistan.The saudis maintain and supply India`s petroleum reserves at negotiated rates , making it easier for india to spend resources searching for alternative sources of energy both at home and abroad.to By making peace with India , pakistan will send a strong signal to the rest of the world that they are a nation willing to compromise for the sake of peace and development and general harmony.I`m sure the indians will compromise too, for their stakes are much higher!!.They are on the threshold of going from a developing to a developed country and the process will take another ten years atleast to mature.They also need peace to ensure a smooth transition of their social and economic progress in this regard.I hope this process occurs!!.
#189 Posted by ZahraJ on July 27, 2005 9:03:51 pm
Re: # 182
Dear Inquirer: This was a hilarious post (the part addressed to me). It seems that you really like ``asterisks``. Sorry for my insensitivity :) I did not say anywhere that I disagreed with your stance. I did say that it is difficult to read and respond appropriately. I even gave you the due respect by asking you to resubmit your effort - with a little bit of reorganization(ok, I forgot to be succinct). I guess it is a matter of personal preference and taste. I have quite a few points on the subject under discussion but I will not share them till I find an appropriate write-up on the front page.
With due respect, despite your genuine effort to raise awareness and concern on an important and sensitive matter impacting the rest of the world, it is very difficult to respond to your article in its current form.
On a less serious note: I hope I at least addressed your post in a polite and appropriate manner :)
I look forward to another contribution by you on Chowk where I can share my perspectives without complaining about the format.
Regards.
Dear Inquirer: This was a hilarious post (the part addressed to me). It seems that you really like ``asterisks``. Sorry for my insensitivity :) I did not say anywhere that I disagreed with your stance. I did say that it is difficult to read and respond appropriately. I even gave you the due respect by asking you to resubmit your effort - with a little bit of reorganization(ok, I forgot to be succinct). I guess it is a matter of personal preference and taste. I have quite a few points on the subject under discussion but I will not share them till I find an appropriate write-up on the front page.
With due respect, despite your genuine effort to raise awareness and concern on an important and sensitive matter impacting the rest of the world, it is very difficult to respond to your article in its current form.
On a less serious note: I hope I at least addressed your post in a polite and appropriate manner :)
I look forward to another contribution by you on Chowk where I can share my perspectives without complaining about the format.
Regards.
#188 Posted by Inquirer on July 27, 2005 2:34:56 pm
Romair, #185: You have raised issues which should be addressed. At what level are we going to stop? Will there be as many countries as there are people? Certainly not, even you would agree.
What is the aim of formation of nations? Nations are formed so that people can learn to live social life accepting individuals comprising nations. ``God`` has given humans, among other animals and plants, a chance to live on this earth. Due to localizations we developed shared traits such as language, etc. Various population groups due to geographical reasons come together and interact and develop composite nations.
We need not go back to 1000 years when Hindus used to supposedly exist separately in India. Those who are cognizant of such things would confirm that even two thousand years ago there were dividing considerations. We have to start at the present not even 1947, now is the reference point.
Indians and Pakistanis have to live together in a civilized fashion. Kashmiris are not a separate nation they are included in the South Asian population group. Should Biharis and Andhraites be living in a separate nations? One should disabuse one`s mind of divisive mentality. First, Indians and Pakistanis have learn to live together. Then Asians and Europeans will learn to do the same. Then, hopefully, in a distant future, may be after ten generations have passed the whole world will come together and develop unified world.
Indeed this world will not be just for humans. As shephards of life the humans will have to undertake and fulfil their resposibility of even keeping developing populations of snakes. It will be the resposibility of us humans to assure survival of an many DNAs as we could possibly can.
Now return to today. It is merely a link in the infinite chain of days. What should we do today? We have to address the problem that we can address today. ``God`` will give us the wisdom to identify our roles and minimum requirements we HAVE to fulfill.
Returning to Kashmiris. Today`s reality is the Indians, Pakistanis have to come together to overcome the discombobulation the the division of India wrought on them. In the emergence of the new society we would have to assure reasonable opportunity of development and fulfilment of life for ALL Indians and Pakistanis and their Kashmiris. These three labels are are merely that - that is labels. WE WILL HAVE TO ASSURE MUTUAL ACCOMODATION BASED ON THE RESOURCES AT HAND. Will there be false steps? Yes, galore. It is our responsibility to come togehter and be able to say as Nehru said at the last meeting of the National Planning Commission:
IS TARAH TAI KI HAIN HAMNE MANZILAIN,
GIR PADRE, GIR KAR UTTHE, UTTH KAR CHALE.
What is the aim of formation of nations? Nations are formed so that people can learn to live social life accepting individuals comprising nations. ``God`` has given humans, among other animals and plants, a chance to live on this earth. Due to localizations we developed shared traits such as language, etc. Various population groups due to geographical reasons come together and interact and develop composite nations.
We need not go back to 1000 years when Hindus used to supposedly exist separately in India. Those who are cognizant of such things would confirm that even two thousand years ago there were dividing considerations. We have to start at the present not even 1947, now is the reference point.
Indians and Pakistanis have to live together in a civilized fashion. Kashmiris are not a separate nation they are included in the South Asian population group. Should Biharis and Andhraites be living in a separate nations? One should disabuse one`s mind of divisive mentality. First, Indians and Pakistanis have learn to live together. Then Asians and Europeans will learn to do the same. Then, hopefully, in a distant future, may be after ten generations have passed the whole world will come together and develop unified world.
Indeed this world will not be just for humans. As shephards of life the humans will have to undertake and fulfil their resposibility of even keeping developing populations of snakes. It will be the resposibility of us humans to assure survival of an many DNAs as we could possibly can.
Now return to today. It is merely a link in the infinite chain of days. What should we do today? We have to address the problem that we can address today. ``God`` will give us the wisdom to identify our roles and minimum requirements we HAVE to fulfill.
Returning to Kashmiris. Today`s reality is the Indians, Pakistanis have to come together to overcome the discombobulation the the division of India wrought on them. In the emergence of the new society we would have to assure reasonable opportunity of development and fulfilment of life for ALL Indians and Pakistanis and their Kashmiris. These three labels are are merely that - that is labels. WE WILL HAVE TO ASSURE MUTUAL ACCOMODATION BASED ON THE RESOURCES AT HAND. Will there be false steps? Yes, galore. It is our responsibility to come togehter and be able to say as Nehru said at the last meeting of the National Planning Commission:
IS TARAH TAI KI HAIN HAMNE MANZILAIN,
GIR PADRE, GIR KAR UTTHE, UTTH KAR CHALE.
#187 Posted by arjun_m on July 27, 2005 2:22:40 pm
#184 by Romair on July 27, 2005 1:50pm PT
Capt Clueless: Balochistan was forcibly annexed by the land of the pure..
I am surprised he feels he has the right to even make such a suggestion..
He made a calm rational suggestion that is probably in Pakiland`s best interest...what`s the alternative? continue to breed jihadis to fight your wars? seeing how well that`s worked out for you in 16 years, you can continue to try...I`m sure the Indians will be happy to see you radicalize your own population to produce jihadis willing to die for you...beghairat banias are sure to know that the flow of jihadis can`t be controlled by a gardenhose- focussing it on where you need it...the pipe will spring a leak, as it has now, and soak the whole of pakiland...
I`m surprised that you continue to act all erudite, especially after your track record of calling events....
Rest assured if this right were given to the Kashmiris, your personal lives would not be affected at all.
Rest assured that the current situation isn`t affecting the lives of the average Indians...If you think India is bleeding and it`s just a matter of time before it hands over Kashmir to you on a platter, you`re in cloud cuckoo land..
but a society based on 100% survivial of the fittest, with the weak totally occupied and crushed by the powerful.
That`s how it already is in Pakistan, isn`t it? The army, being the fittest and having the guns, is free to crush democratically elected governments...If they had the same success in Kargil as they had in ``capturing`` the PM`s palace, you`d be back in your ``ancestral`` home in srinigar now...
Capt Clueless: Balochistan was forcibly annexed by the land of the pure..
I am surprised he feels he has the right to even make such a suggestion..
He made a calm rational suggestion that is probably in Pakiland`s best interest...what`s the alternative? continue to breed jihadis to fight your wars? seeing how well that`s worked out for you in 16 years, you can continue to try...I`m sure the Indians will be happy to see you radicalize your own population to produce jihadis willing to die for you...beghairat banias are sure to know that the flow of jihadis can`t be controlled by a gardenhose- focussing it on where you need it...the pipe will spring a leak, as it has now, and soak the whole of pakiland...
I`m surprised that you continue to act all erudite, especially after your track record of calling events....
Rest assured if this right were given to the Kashmiris, your personal lives would not be affected at all.
Rest assured that the current situation isn`t affecting the lives of the average Indians...If you think India is bleeding and it`s just a matter of time before it hands over Kashmir to you on a platter, you`re in cloud cuckoo land..
but a society based on 100% survivial of the fittest, with the weak totally occupied and crushed by the powerful.
That`s how it already is in Pakistan, isn`t it? The army, being the fittest and having the guns, is free to crush democratically elected governments...If they had the same success in Kargil as they had in ``capturing`` the PM`s palace, you`d be back in your ``ancestral`` home in srinigar now...
#186 Posted by tahmed32 on July 27, 2005 2:21:45 pm
ferozk: What we have is a failure of character - a lack of responsibility shown by our leaders from Ayub on down. When will this long tunnel of one damned ``indispensable man`` after another end for Pakistan?
#185 Posted by tahmed32 on July 27, 2005 2:15:16 pm
Inquirer: I didnt see any attempt to respond to those who were criticizing the quality of the article - which you must admit is confusing the way it is structured. Nor did I see any participation from you in the discussion on your own article. So, I hope you will understand why I suggested not bothering with the article (if people found it confusing).
Anyway: As far as I am concerned, I am less concerned about the right of self-determination of the Kashmiris, and more concerned about the right of self-determination of Pakistanis. No doubt the Indian government had no business forcing kashmiris to become part of India - but what the hell. 50 years of feuding is enough. Time to get over that and move on. Peace in the sub-continent is far more important than how the damned border is drawn.
Anyway: As far as I am concerned, I am less concerned about the right of self-determination of the Kashmiris, and more concerned about the right of self-determination of Pakistanis. No doubt the Indian government had no business forcing kashmiris to become part of India - but what the hell. 50 years of feuding is enough. Time to get over that and move on. Peace in the sub-continent is far more important than how the damned border is drawn.
#184 Posted by Romair on July 27, 2005 1:50:28 pm
Inquirer/Ferozek: Are both of you against letting the Kashmiris decide what they should do with their future? Do you believe that human beings should be allowed to make decisions about their future, or do you think such decisions should be dictated to them? And what is the ethical and moral authority under which such decisions should be dictated.
To me the biggest source of violence in the world, is the desire of one human being to dominate another, just to satisfy the former`s ego and beliefs. This is the core problem in everything from a husband beating his wife, to one country occupying another.......
The internal desire for any human being to be free, and to live on his own wishes, as opposed to the convenience of individuals many cities and oceans away, is an uncontrollable and unextinguishable desire. It is extremely difficult to kill that desire. This is why even after 1000 years of being ruled, Hindus in India wanted to be free......
If such a desire did not exist, the world would be nothing but a society based on 100% survivial of the fittest, with the weak totally occupied and crushed by the powerful. As someone who is assoicated with the area of Kashmir, I certainly disagree with Feroze`s suggestions. I am surprised he feels he has the right to even make such a suggestion. In fact, the whole problem is that too many people in our societies feel they have the right to make suggestions about others, rather than letting the others make suggestions about themselves.......
Let every human being live in freedom, based on his/her own wishes. That is a goal we should all be aiming for. Our aim should not be to impose our solutions onto others.........
The solution to the Kashmir problem is right in front of everyone. Let them decide what they want to do. It is under this same basis that India and Pakistan (and Bangladesh), themselves, were formed. Why not give others this right also. Rest assured if this right were given to the Kashmiris, your personal lives would not be affected at all. If anything, they would get much better.......After a few decades or a generation, no one would even remember that Kashmir, at one time, was occupied or an area of conflict............
So, at best, Feroze has a right to suggest that Pakistan should not support the Kashmiri`s freedom struggle. But I don`t think he has the moral right to decide their fate...........
To me the biggest source of violence in the world, is the desire of one human being to dominate another, just to satisfy the former`s ego and beliefs. This is the core problem in everything from a husband beating his wife, to one country occupying another.......
The internal desire for any human being to be free, and to live on his own wishes, as opposed to the convenience of individuals many cities and oceans away, is an uncontrollable and unextinguishable desire. It is extremely difficult to kill that desire. This is why even after 1000 years of being ruled, Hindus in India wanted to be free......
If such a desire did not exist, the world would be nothing but a society based on 100% survivial of the fittest, with the weak totally occupied and crushed by the powerful. As someone who is assoicated with the area of Kashmir, I certainly disagree with Feroze`s suggestions. I am surprised he feels he has the right to even make such a suggestion. In fact, the whole problem is that too many people in our societies feel they have the right to make suggestions about others, rather than letting the others make suggestions about themselves.......
Let every human being live in freedom, based on his/her own wishes. That is a goal we should all be aiming for. Our aim should not be to impose our solutions onto others.........
The solution to the Kashmir problem is right in front of everyone. Let them decide what they want to do. It is under this same basis that India and Pakistan (and Bangladesh), themselves, were formed. Why not give others this right also. Rest assured if this right were given to the Kashmiris, your personal lives would not be affected at all. If anything, they would get much better.......After a few decades or a generation, no one would even remember that Kashmir, at one time, was occupied or an area of conflict............
So, at best, Feroze has a right to suggest that Pakistan should not support the Kashmiri`s freedom struggle. But I don`t think he has the moral right to decide their fate...........
#183 Posted by Inquirer on July 27, 2005 1:32:33 pm
Re: # 181
feroz sahab: Self interest is not condemnable for itself. The societies are fueled by self-interest. But antisocial behavior and clear dishonesty has to be recognized and branded.
No, we can not give up on you and your kind. Please keep faith and never give up on your significance. We in India count on you!
feroz sahab: Self interest is not condemnable for itself. The societies are fueled by self-interest. But antisocial behavior and clear dishonesty has to be recognized and branded.
No, we can not give up on you and your kind. Please keep faith and never give up on your significance. We in India count on you!
#182 Posted by Inquirer on July 27, 2005 12:35:32 pm
#24, tahmed32: So, dont read the article. Read the posts.
**** Disappointed at your perfunctory approach to the discussions. Thanks to some people may have followed the nonserious attitude toward the article as one can see very few had the consistency/gumption to address the real issues raised therein.****
#41, pmishra2: It is nice of you to write such an appropriate and timely article.
****Thanks.****
But I have bad news for you ! - you are low-life idol worshipper belonging to a brutal, disgusting and violent civilization which due to inadvertent error was not systematically cleansed from the earth. You have no right or standing to comment on higher forms of civilization and religion such as islam.
**** You have given up on good Muslims and yes they are there. But we DO NEED TO DISABUSE THE MUSLIM POPULATION OF THEIR WAHAABI MULLAHS.****
#93,zahraj: It appears that the ``intellectuals`` have decided to convene at this board to discuss irrelevant subject matter.
****True. Thanks to the advice given to you by tahmed32, you also failed to take up issue, assuming you did have them, with my articles.****
#112, zahraj: In order to ease the tension on this board, Chowk Admin should request Mr. Bhatnagar to consolidate his views in one paragraph and resubmit. This article should not sit on Chowk`s front page. It`s silly.
**** I do not think that any tension was caused by my article. The respondents, including you did not addreee what the Pakistani President was addressing nor my evaluations thereof. You see you do have to read the article before addressing it.****Now do you see the need for the asterisks?
#136, neeraj1967: It is a well meaning article and, there is no reason to get worked up on the presumtion that there is a hidden agenda behind or that it is espousing a holier than thou attiude at the cost of Islam,Muslims,Pakistanis.At the rate at which we are killing each other in the name of democracy,religion,state we dont need a meteoric kind of intervention to become extinct a la the dinosaurs.To me the propogation of religion based or nation-state based identity are the most sinister ideas which we have adopted in our fast forward desire to self-destruct.I want to ask a question supposing there were no countries or religion in the world would we cease to exsist as humans? i dont think so!. All of us need to read bill brysons a brief history of every-thing to understand and appreciate the fragility of our exsistence.
****Thanks.****
#141,premwalla: ****It is far from certain. Until and unless there are three or four fair elections the jury is out on these claims.**** ``}
Couldn`t agree more with your comment above. Thanks for the timely article.
Good review with a point by point commentary.
****Thanks.****
Unfortunately, the real solution to Pakistan`s problems lies in the destruction of this self-serving class of selfish epicureans. Let`s let the Mullas finish off these internal enemies before they themselves meet the same fate. Then the country can rejoin its rightful place in undivided India.
Salim
****Salim, I am delighted to find the clear enunciation of the objective. WE NEED TO THINK WHAT CAN BE DONE TO ACHIEVE THE OBJECTIVE IN A FAIR AND POSITIVE FASHION. THAT HAS TO BE DONE WITH UNDERSTANDING AND CONSENSUS OF ALL GROUPS AND RELIGIONS. WE SHOULD NOT OVEREMPHASIZE THE RELIGION PART.****
#145,rsribhar: Interesting post by Mr. Premwalla that was filtered out by Chowk Staff. First thing that Pakis have to learn is to give up selective censorship - that is why they and their institutions have no credibility.
****What censorship are you talking about? I find your version and the original versions to be the same.****
**** Disappointed at your perfunctory approach to the discussions. Thanks to some people may have followed the nonserious attitude toward the article as one can see very few had the consistency/gumption to address the real issues raised therein.****
#41, pmishra2: It is nice of you to write such an appropriate and timely article.
****Thanks.****
But I have bad news for you ! - you are low-life idol worshipper belonging to a brutal, disgusting and violent civilization which due to inadvertent error was not systematically cleansed from the earth. You have no right or standing to comment on higher forms of civilization and religion such as islam.
**** You have given up on good Muslims and yes they are there. But we DO NEED TO DISABUSE THE MUSLIM POPULATION OF THEIR WAHAABI MULLAHS.****
#93,zahraj: It appears that the ``intellectuals`` have decided to convene at this board to discuss irrelevant subject matter.
****True. Thanks to the advice given to you by tahmed32, you also failed to take up issue, assuming you did have them, with my articles.****
#112, zahraj: In order to ease the tension on this board, Chowk Admin should request Mr. Bhatnagar to consolidate his views in one paragraph and resubmit. This article should not sit on Chowk`s front page. It`s silly.
**** I do not think that any tension was caused by my article. The respondents, including you did not addreee what the Pakistani President was addressing nor my evaluations thereof. You see you do have to read the article before addressing it.****Now do you see the need for the asterisks?
#136, neeraj1967: It is a well meaning article and, there is no reason to get worked up on the presumtion that there is a hidden agenda behind or that it is espousing a holier than thou attiude at the cost of Islam,Muslims,Pakistanis.At the rate at which we are killing each other in the name of democracy,religion,state we dont need a meteoric kind of intervention to become extinct a la the dinosaurs.To me the propogation of religion based or nation-state based identity are the most sinister ideas which we have adopted in our fast forward desire to self-destruct.I want to ask a question supposing there were no countries or religion in the world would we cease to exsist as humans? i dont think so!. All of us need to read bill brysons a brief history of every-thing to understand and appreciate the fragility of our exsistence.
****Thanks.****
#141,premwalla: ****It is far from certain. Until and unless there are three or four fair elections the jury is out on these claims.**** ``}
Couldn`t agree more with your comment above. Thanks for the timely article.
Good review with a point by point commentary.
****Thanks.****
Unfortunately, the real solution to Pakistan`s problems lies in the destruction of this self-serving class of selfish epicureans. Let`s let the Mullas finish off these internal enemies before they themselves meet the same fate. Then the country can rejoin its rightful place in undivided India.
Salim
****Salim, I am delighted to find the clear enunciation of the objective. WE NEED TO THINK WHAT CAN BE DONE TO ACHIEVE THE OBJECTIVE IN A FAIR AND POSITIVE FASHION. THAT HAS TO BE DONE WITH UNDERSTANDING AND CONSENSUS OF ALL GROUPS AND RELIGIONS. WE SHOULD NOT OVEREMPHASIZE THE RELIGION PART.****
#145,rsribhar: Interesting post by Mr. Premwalla that was filtered out by Chowk Staff. First thing that Pakis have to learn is to give up selective censorship - that is why they and their institutions have no credibility.
****What censorship are you talking about? I find your version and the original versions to be the same.****
#181 Posted by ferozk on July 27, 2005 9:15:01 am
Re: # 178
Pakistanis will never act; now or in the future. There is no point in pinning hopes on people like me, because we are a dying breed in Pakistan and are of no particular importance. The problem in Pakistan is not that its elites are confused, but the problem is that they are self-interested and Pakistan is not in their interest.
Ciao
Pakistanis will never act; now or in the future. There is no point in pinning hopes on people like me, because we are a dying breed in Pakistan and are of no particular importance. The problem in Pakistan is not that its elites are confused, but the problem is that they are self-interested and Pakistan is not in their interest.
Ciao
#180 Posted by Inquirer on July 27, 2005 7:05:52 am
Apparently, there are a large number of people at Chowk who are unable to grasp my style of discussing an issue starting with a documentable statement and then providing a crisp assessment of the situation, without rigmarole! According to my belief wordiness is self-defeating and worse than no discussion as it is sheer waste of time. A discussion should have a documented basis and clear position on issues but, of course all this should be cogent and not devoid of significance.
As for the subject at hand, it should be OBVIOUS to any clear headed person, example is ferozk #27, that Pakistani populations and most of the intellectuals are lost and unable to act in a coherent fashion for the benefit of Pakistan. Of course, this involves an enunciation of the vision of the ``benefit.`` Most of the Pakistanis, in a deluded fashion, equate the goal of Pakistan as acquisition of Kashmir on a communal basis. They should not forget the fate of the remaining Muslims in India if Kashmir is communalized as the deluded, assisted by the international powers, did for the formation of Pakistan. Furthermore, now the international community has changed and has little patience with Wahaabi Mullahs.
India may not have the likes of Gandhi and Nehru again to uphold the standards of fairness if India is made to pass through a trauma of division again. A very probable condition for the subcontinent will be an internecine civil war for at least fifty years, even if the cool heads can prevail to keep nuclear bombs from raining over it.
As for the subject at hand, it should be OBVIOUS to any clear headed person, example is ferozk #27, that Pakistani populations and most of the intellectuals are lost and unable to act in a coherent fashion for the benefit of Pakistan. Of course, this involves an enunciation of the vision of the ``benefit.`` Most of the Pakistanis, in a deluded fashion, equate the goal of Pakistan as acquisition of Kashmir on a communal basis. They should not forget the fate of the remaining Muslims in India if Kashmir is communalized as the deluded, assisted by the international powers, did for the formation of Pakistan. Furthermore, now the international community has changed and has little patience with Wahaabi Mullahs.
India may not have the likes of Gandhi and Nehru again to uphold the standards of fairness if India is made to pass through a trauma of division again. A very probable condition for the subcontinent will be an internecine civil war for at least fifty years, even if the cool heads can prevail to keep nuclear bombs from raining over it.
#179 Posted by Al_Bundy on July 27, 2005 7:05:14 am
RE- #177 by yossarian
A very good point. The taboo associated with the word bhangi and other cleaning jobs in South Asia, especially in India with caste playing a big role, is the reason why no one wants to do it. And the ones doing the cleaning work - do it half-heartedly, with little pride because of the idiotic stigma attached to it. And the result is for all to see. The 1st thing a foreigner notices when he comes to India is - the total lack of public sanitation or cleanliness and for them India looks like one big, giant trash can.
Visit any Western countries or poor countries in South America or Asian countries like Thailand, Malaysia, etc. or even poor middle-eastern countries like Yemen or carribean countries inhabited by blacks like Jamaica, Bahamas, etc. and the cleanliness and public sanitation level is pretty high.
A very good point. The taboo associated with the word bhangi and other cleaning jobs in South Asia, especially in India with caste playing a big role, is the reason why no one wants to do it. And the ones doing the cleaning work - do it half-heartedly, with little pride because of the idiotic stigma attached to it. And the result is for all to see. The 1st thing a foreigner notices when he comes to India is - the total lack of public sanitation or cleanliness and for them India looks like one big, giant trash can.
Visit any Western countries or poor countries in South America or Asian countries like Thailand, Malaysia, etc. or even poor middle-eastern countries like Yemen or carribean countries inhabited by blacks like Jamaica, Bahamas, etc. and the cleanliness and public sanitation level is pretty high.
#178 Posted by Inquirer on July 27, 2005 6:19:53 am
Re: # 27
ferozk: You have made a very reasonable and honest suggestion for restoring the peace for India-Pakistan conflict. Pakistanis will do well to pay attention to and support people like you in their country. BUT THEY HAVE TO ACT!
ferozk: You have made a very reasonable and honest suggestion for restoring the peace for India-Pakistan conflict. Pakistanis will do well to pay attention to and support people like you in their country. BUT THEY HAVE TO ACT!
Interact Index
Latest Interacts
- hamidm2: Re: # 69 tahmed, .... are... âDustbin of historyâ or
- KaalChakra: Sadna, thanks. We would... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
- pinku: What is the legal... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
- sadna: The first such âresolutionâ... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
- Urstruly: My deepest condolences to... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
- sadna: Yeah kaalchakra, multiple bar... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
- KaalChakra: Sadna, what is the... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
- sadna: Look, its like telling... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
