Will Pakistanis Listen and Act?

Re: # 224, rsribhar:
Thanks, for taking me into confidence.
I do not know much about others but Temporal seems to be a reasonable person.
Evidently, between you and Chowk, there is a lot of nitty-gritty involved and to resolve the problem both sides will have to forgive and forget.
Your thoughts on the required unity of India have no doubt endeared you to me.
I have always found Chowk to be reasonable.
I would be happy to intercede on your behalf so that you do not have take recourse to clandestine operations.
Of course, I am no resolver of all problems, even my own, let alone the Chowk and you. But I am thinking of a ``peaceful coexistence`` derived from forgive, forget and at some point of time accept.
I do believe where there is a will there is a way.

#223, Inquirer,
The bone of contention between Chowk and me is simply a combination of freedom of expression and nepotism. They do not agree with me, my opinions, and my tactic of responding in kind to insults hurled at me by their favorites. There are people that Chowk favors (Scout, Saminasha, Sobia, Temporal, JohnGalt, Atif, and others) who are allowed to say whatever they like without incurring Chowk`s wrath or having their messages and threads deleted or censored. The same is not true for others, especially me.
Thanks for listening.
Salim Ahmed Chauhan

Re: # 222, rsribhar:
Your views seem reasonable from what I have seen. What is the bone of contention between Chowk Administrators and you?

Dear Inquirer, in #217 you requested {``Are you a Hindu posing for a Muslim? In other words, passing for rsridhar, you could be an agent provocateur. I hope , to God, that you are not doing this unconscionable thing! Please confirm.``}

No, I am not posing as a Muslim. I was born one. I am forced to use multiple and confusing nics to confuse Chowk Staff. This group of tyrants is adamant on suppressing my views, deleting my messages, and erasing my threads. By changing nics, and trying to mimic ``acceptable`` noble personalities, e.g. Mr. Rsridhar, I am able to temporarily confuse the demagogues.
I hope you understand. No harm intended.
Salim Ahmed Chauhan.

I am sorry due to my absence during the first four days, there was some misunderstanding of the purpose of the article, which in no small measure was due to my not unambiguously indicating the format. At any rate, I am happy that people have contributed to the discussion.
Having said that, I wish the respondents would try to keep the issue at hand and desist from the personal attacks that lower the level of discussions.
I particularly value the inputs from ZahraJ, ferozk, premwalla and kaalchakra, among others. Jury is out on sribhar.
As a final comment, I would like to respond to the last comment.

Re: # 220, ZahraJ:
I appreciate your final comment after all the confusion and absolving me from my ambiguous format. In conclusion I would like to state that we need to keep our focus narrow enough to be able to conclude effectively. Ascribing the Pakistani woes to some world malaise, though the connection is undeniable, would leave us in an intellectual limbo unable to at least opine what needs to be done in the specific case.
In this regard, I would redirect your attention to the fact that Muslim Nations, in general, and Pakistan, in particular, need to reformulate their position on the relationships with the minorities and deactivate, if not annul, their scriptures` inappropriate directions/interpretations.

Re: # 218

Inquirer,

I took a stab based on what I understood from your posts. Some of my comments were in response to the specific items you have highlighted. It`s immaterial to me whether you took Musharaf`s phrases to make a point or came up with those on your own. The most important aspect that counts is that you brought up some valid issues of concern. These issues are no longer issues of Pakistan only. They are/have been impacting the rest of the world. In that context, scenario, all views and perspectives should be entertained with an open mind.

If I have to look at a leader/ role model in today`s day and age, I would rarely turn toward anyone in Pakistani armed forces or $hitty politicians. I would always lean toward elsewhere, i.e. Jack Welch, Robin Sharma, Lama Surya Das, Guiliani, Hillary C and many others.

Mukhtaran Mai is an anomaly in the Pakistani System. There are a few others as well but they are educated and belong to a different strata. Mukhtaran has far more potential to create a change in the Pakistani way of thinking than any of the rogue politicians occupying seats in the assemblies. It is neither the Baenazirs nor the Nawaz Sharifs who will change the destiny of Pakistan. It`s people like Mukhtaran who will set examples that will be remembered by the generations to come.

The subject of Pakistani Social System is the most depressing and pathetic topic of discussion. I say, pathetic, since there is little or no improvement from where the system was decades back. There is constant deterioration. The peripheral elements have been given a new shape and color and technology(in some cases), but the core will take a long time for renewal.

That`s it from my end.

I think you should read Godot`s article. I concur with his succinct thoughts and sentiments.

Kaalchakra,

Thanks for your ilog. If I have additional questions, I will route them toward you. Thank you again.

Re: # 197, ferozk:
I agree with your statements to Romair. Let us admit, for the honesty`s sake, that the question of Independent Kashmir does not arise. The continental situation just makes this impossible, whether Romair or his ilk like it or not. The issue to be settled first is how India and Pakistan can learn to live together. Under this proviso, we need to let Kashmir be divided as that would lead to a general rapprochement without which nothing would be doable.
Ultimately, of coure, it will depend on how India/Pakistan treat their Kashmiris. And if the Kashmiris do not agree with the solution what resources they can put up to change the situation. They have to envision their destiny. May it is in their benefit to subsume their identity in the wider purviews of India/Pakistan.

#210, ZaharaJ: Kaalchakra is much more qualified and I hope you already got you
wanted.
#202 to 209: I am sorry, I thought that my format for presentation was understood but I was wrong. I read an article in July 21, Dawn which had reported on a speech given by Musharraf. I selected the paragraphs from that reportage and quoted them along with the my evaluations between ****

---

****. This was followed even in the summary of the article in #201. There the seven points are the points that Musharraf is supposed to have made and in the capitals are the directions from me to for hearing the assessments from Chowkies. I am afraid the the flow of arguments have now become too convoluted to rescue the situation. In future, I will be more explicit in my statements and the format of their presentation.

I will nevertheless respond to tahmed 32 and ZaharaJ’s specific points without defending Musharraf!

#204, ZaharaJ: Evidently, “eradicate” was not my word. Yet I do not differ from Musharraf. I agree with your suggestions regarding Pakistan Govt actions but would like to add that world is running out of patience and the less than decisive implementation of Pakistan’s words into actions. And Pakistan itself is running out of time in ability to execute what is needed. Primarily, there is a dire need to prove to the world that Pakistan treats its minorities with modern justice and fairness – not some idiomatic Islamic version thereof.

#205 and 209, Tahmed32: I cannot answer these questions. These questions have been posited by President Musharraf and are REQUIRED to be answered by Pakistani Muslims. As for India’s record for the treatment of the minorities is concerned, inspite of sporadic violence by misguided Hindus, India’s official and actual policy is vindicated by what Muslims have achieved in all walks of life. That is so, in no small measure, due to wisdom/generosity of Hindus of India.

#208, ZahraJ:
I am glad that you approve of the Musharraf’s stand in steering Pakistan towards a moderate nationhood.
But as it is stated in Bhagvadgita by Krishna Ji, there comes a time when even brothers and teachers have to be killed for upholding a correct position. And that time for Pkistani population is NOW. They have to establish the fairness and justice doctrine in Pakistan even if it takes a civil war between the moderates and the bigoted Mulims. That war would be better and healthy unlike the Sia/Sunni war going on currently.

Otherwise the world will keep the military pressure on the proponents of bigotry in Pakistan and other places. Furthermore, Pakistanis have to move away, in an aggressive fashion, from the Wahaabi ideology that pervades in the Pakistani ISI and a significant section of the Muslims themselves.

At any rate thanks for the praise of Item 7 but it is Musharraf’s not mine. My part was merely the question to learn what the Muslim Chowkies feel about his suggestion.

Re: # 213rsribhar/Salim
Are you a Hindu posing for a Muslim? In other words, passing for rsridhar, you could be an agent provocateur. I hope , to God, that you are not doing this unconscionable thing! Please confirm.

Re: # 202, ZaharaJ ji:
Thanks for looking at the asterisks the same way as I do!

I am sorry, I was away from my computer fo a few days. Therefore, I have not been able to respond to your replies. Tomorrow I will try to provide my thoughts on your response/query.

Thanks Kaalchakra, I do not know in what connection the understanding of ``Mandal`` is being sought. But I can imagine in a certain context in which, your background of your father being a priest puts you in a much better position than me. Nevertheless, three of us will interact and try to maximize the gain in understanding from this opportunity for interaction.

Sorry, ZahraJ ji, I am unable to give a fuller response as I have not yet read the posts carefully enough.

Re: # 214

Thanks. I will look into it.

ZahraJ

I learnt the elementary concepts and design of a Mandala from my grandfather who was, among other things, a village priest. So while Inqurier prepares his detailed explanation, I can volunteer basic help.

Now-a-days in the West, particularly in certain fields of study, the whole idea of mandala has become hot, with tons of relevant material available online. But I will gladly i-log a few words describing my own current grasp of the subject. Then if you have any questions, Inquirer and I will try our best to answer them.

I reiterate. As detestable as they are, the illiterate Mullahs are NOT the problem. Rather, it is the so-called ``educated, liberal, quasi pro-western, progressive`` Pakis who have led the nation to ruin. The debacle of `71 was entirely created by them. This struggle has nothing to do with Islam, Pakistan, Kashmir, or anything else. It is a simple case of looting the poor country. These progressives want to get in power and establish their oligarchy. English for them, Urdu for the poor. Whiskey for them, polluted water for the poor. Meat for them, daal roti for the poor. US/UK higher education for them, madrassas for the poor. Comfortable heaven on earth for them, 72 houris in paradise for the poor. Servants for them, servitude for the poor. Birds of paradise for them, what the bird left on the rock for the poor.

Salim

Sorry. I meant ``Re: #193 by myself``.

Re: #33 by myself

I forgot to add this most important thing to my wishlist:

COULD WE PLEASE ISSUE SHOOT-AT-SIGHT (AND OVERWHELMINGLY AT THE HEAD) JUST LIKE THE BRITISH HAVE ISSUED JUST AFTER 52 DEATHS.

COULD WE PLEASE MAKE THIS THE LAW OF THE LAND IN INDIA FOR TERRORIST ACTIVITIES.

WE HAVE INCURRED OVER 50,000 DEATHS (THAT’S MORE THAN 52 – FOR THOSE BROUGHT UP ON MADRASSA-MATH).

SO COULD WE PLEASE?

FARZANA72 AND TAHMEDMULLAH TYPES WOULD NOT MIND THIS. BECAUSE THE GORAY LOG HAVE DONE IT ALREADY.

SO PLEASE? COULD WE?

Inquirer: I have taken out a lot of time from my precious evening to document my perspectives. I need a favor from you. While I was visiting the museums and reading about the buddhist monastries and the whole stuff on Tibet and other areas, I came across a word, ``mandala`` quite frequently. Can you tell me what does it mean? What is the significance? Does it imply something sacred?

Anxiously awaiting a detailed response.

Thank you.

Good answers, ZahraJ. Now maybe Inquirer can apply them in India as well to end hindu terrorism of the kind promoted by Modi, Advani, Thakeray and other national leaders.

[4. wage jihad against those fanning hatred and preaching violence in society in the name of religion - CAN/SHOULD IT BE DONE? ]

That`s doable in an environment with a strong law and order system.

Unfortunately, that`s never been a forte of the Pakistani System. With that said, it`s not impossible to implement a plan addressing the above issue. It`s the matter of coming to a consensus and realizing what is that you want the world to recognize you for. Your political system? Your democratic values? Your military rule? Your strong traditional values? Your rigidity? Your lawlessness? What?

I have not heard Musharraf`s speeches in a long long time. While browsing through a few articles here and there, I found out that he has emphasized on the impression of Pakistan as a moderate country to the rest of the world vs. otherwise. That`s a big step - even if he only utters those words. In a country where lawlessness is rampant, the fact that Musharraf is still alive with all his idealistic and big ideas, is a miracle. He does need support from the rest of the world. He will never get 100% buy in from the masses. Points to ponder.

Note: This is one of the most valuable suggestions in your 7 points. I also think it will have a wider range of impact.

ferozk #195 This is getting a bit heavy for me, this stuff about drinking from the poisoned chalice. :-)

I think as a nation Pakistanis are second to none in terms of many cultural aspects. I have been to many countries, and I have not found a more hospitable, generous, intelligent, clean-living, good-humored and hard-working people than the ones we find in Pakistan.

When I referred to a failure of character, I was talking about the individual leaders. The logical question then is - is there a pattern to this failure in leadership. I think there is: After Ayub Khan every single Pakistani leader has been either a military man, or a creation of the military (Z.A.Bhutto was Ayub`s creation, BB was of course her dads creation both literally and figuretively, Sharif was Zia`s creation). And so, we have ``unwhetted leaders`` coming to power - while individuals representing the true Pakistani character (which is in fact very strong in my view) have been kept away by this dysfunctional ``system``.

7. Pakistan needs to rid itself of this equation with the religious leaders who are rarely sensible enough to understand the modern world. - DO YOU AGREE?

Yes, I do. I am not sure on the implementation strategy. I think the ignorance of the modern world is not a sin since there are many others besides the religious and fundamentalist muslim leaders. But the desire to finish your life as well as others since you do not have much in your life and they are moving ahead is criminal! There should be a strong penalty for that.

Example 1: Lancaster, Pennsylvania has a decent population of Amish men and women who do not believe in modern technology/world.
Example 2: I ran into a very charming guy with cute blue eyes and faded curly blonde hair during my recent travels who was from the fundamentalist sect of Protestants - Jehovah`s Witnesses. He told me so much weird stuff on what his parents believed and how they deprived him of early education since they did not believe in modern world and its change. He came out of that shell to move ahead in life. Well, he called his sect a fundamentalist sect - rigid and very hard to change gears from one world to another.

Both the above categories live their lives in their own world without bothering others. So, you cannot say that only the Pakistani Religious Leaders have to equip themselves with the modern world. In my opinion, the Pakistani Religious Leaders need to learn to live with people who have different aspirations in life. Not all Muslims think and believe in the same course of life. If you want to live in a cabin on a mountain meditating day in and day out since you do not believe in the modern world then that`s fine. It`s fine as long as you do not go and kill others who have things to do in their lives.

Monks also do not believe in the facilities and trends of the modern world. I am reading quite a few things on them and have studied some museums at length discovering their lifestyle and its cycle.

....

Inquirer #201 Perhaps you should provide the answers to these questions.

1. UK and Pakistan needed to take ‘serious measures’ urgently to eradicate the menace of terrorism - WHAT CAN BE THESE?

- Focusing on the root cause of the problem within Pakistan. You do not sound like a visionary with the choice of word, ``eradicate``. You come across very emotional by using such a term. Pakistani Government needs to have a plan to address these issues. And the world needs to give reasonable amount of time for implementation. Probably, the rest of the world needs to contemplate on how to provide assistance to Pakistan in addressing the madressa issue. Probably, there should be teachers from all over the world who teach English and the rest of the necessary subjects to these madressa going youth. The locals should be trained by the people from diverse cultures on the art of teaching. Having lack of diversity is a big issue for the Pakistani Youth. For Sunnis to come across Shias and vice versa is not exposure to diversity.

Attending to the issues of the current day and age youth will resolve many inherent frustrations that lead them to kill themselves and those around. Also, the Pakistani Government ought to provide more opportunities in the business (profit and non-profit sector) to the low-income/idle youth for exposure and experience. In addition to that, the concept of hardwork needs to be appreciated and well rewarded. These are basics. Neither the Brits nor the Americans can inject these in any nation. There has to be a conscious effort to inculcate the above mentioned in one`s social structure. The economically poor class needs to have more control on their lives and be more independent financially through their own efforts than relying on a madressa budget.

Rest Later,

Re: # 201

Thank you :)

Re: # 191

Inquirer:

[As for the asterisks, don`t you think they are the prettiest symbols on the keyboard to separate individual ideas?!]

**I concur with your sentiments :)**

*** I can see beauty and spontaneity emitting from right and left. ***

I wish somebody would address the issues at hand as outlined in the article.
For example:
1. UK and Pakistan needed to take ‘serious measures’ urgently to eradicate the menace of terrorism - WHAT CAN BE THESE?
2. one prong to be delivered by the Muslim world and the other by the West. - DEFINE THESE.
3. “Banned organizations will not be allowed to collect any kind of donations and action will be taken against those giving hate-containing sermons in mosques on Fridays” - WHAT IS THE CURRENT PROCEDURE AND HOW TO CORRECT IT.
4. wage jihad against those fanning hatred and preaching violence in society in the name of religion - CAN/SHOULD IT BE DONE?
5. vote for those who wanted to steer the country towards progress and prosperity - WHAT INDEED ARE THE OPTIONS?
6. efforts should be made to put the Ummah on road to progress - IS IT AT ALL POSSIBLE, IF SO HOW?
7. Pakistan needs to rid itself of this equation with the religious leaders who are rarely sensible enough to understand the modern world. - DO YOU AGREE?
Instead of bickering and hurling insults on each other and imagined guilties.

I agree with Tahmed that Pakistanis should have the right to self determination for themselves before advocating it for Kashmiris. I would like to add that right to self determination should be for mature and responsible people(s). There should be a proven track record of tolerance and commitment to democracy. After all rights come after responsibilities. Beside those who do not respect others` right to life lose any right to rights.

Kashmir`s problem and freedom struggle is religion based and the demands and solutions are also religious based. Everyone knows what happened when a nation was created based on religious demands in 47.

The folly should not be repeated again. Kashmiri muslims in general have no desire to include non muslim Kashmiris.

Kashmiri freedom may bring freedom to Kashmiri muslims and solve THEIR problems ONLY. That won`t end the Paki/Indian/Hindu/Muslim animosities.

Kashmir is just an EXCUSE to stir Kanjarpana in India. If Kashmir is given independence, Pakis will come up with an excuse in NEFA, UP, etc. - just like Palestine has been used an excuse for worldwide terrorism by muslim fanatics and their billion or so supporters. Now that the Palestine issue/conflict has cooled, Iraq and Afghanistan are new excuses to wage terror in every corner of the world.

Re: # 196

Good questions.

Ciao

Re: # 184

I am in favor of allowing the Kashmiris decide their future, but I do not see how they can decide their future, when their future is made a pawn in the game of political egoism, between India and Pakistan. As long as Pakistan supports the militancy in Kashmir, it denies the Kashmiris a right to decide their future.

I agree, with you that it is the wish of one to dominate another that causes misery in the world and this principle is true to spousal violence to international wars and is also applicable to the intolerance caused by one religion, any religion, thinking that it is better than other religions.

I do not have the morality or the right to decide another`s future and in the same sense, I do not have the moral right or the political right to condemn a person to death, because of the nature of my personal politics. If I did not have the right to make this suggestion of making the LoC into an international border and I was wrong, then it is also not right to favor a course of action, which results in the death of people and by favoring such a policy, which regardless of its good intentions causes suffering, its amounts to deciding other peoples` future or making suggestions about their future. :)

``Let every human being live in freedom, based on his/her own wishes. That is a goal we should all be aiming for. Our aim should not be to impose our solutions onto others.........``

I totally agree, with you, but the Pakistani army does not seem to understand this advice!

The solution to the Kashmir problem is right in front of everyone and I agree, with you, but they cannot decide what is right for them, because the Pakistani army thinks it knows what is best for Kashmir. :).

``So, at best, Feroze has a right to suggest that Pakistan should not support the Kashmiri`s freedom struggle. But I don`t think he has the moral right to decide their fate...........``

Neither does any one have the moral right to allow the killings in Kashmir to persist and when such a policy is favored that results in deaths, it is also the same as deciding Kashmiris future and is also wrong. :)

Ciao

Ferzok

Only a handful of people lie. The rest, the vast majority, simply make the mistake of believing them. The baffling question is: why is the latter group sometimes simply not able to completely walk out of the dark prison of the lie? Why do people become so emotionally committed to lies that they fight tooth and nail when lies are exposed to them, even after they repeatedly suffer for their lies? Why is someone who tries to tell them the truth becomes the object of hatred, and the teller of lies, the one great beloved?

To answer these, it may be more useful to focus on group-level processes than on character.

Tahmed once hinted at the notion of culture....which may or may not be a relevant social determinant. None of us tried to get deeper into that.

Re: # 186

The failure has not been of a character, but rather the failure to recognize the true nature of the character itself. There is no harm in uttering a lie and but no one forced us to believe the lie and when we did such on our own free will, we gave up the right to blame our leaders. We have to start holding ourself responsible for our actions.

Our problem is one of conformity and we always conformed, with deception, to avoid the unpleasantness of stating the truth. The truth is that, we accepted denial as our reality and in ignoring reality, we believed that the nobility of our intentions and actions, would outweigh the consequences of our mistakes. Now, the wages of our sins are upon us and we have no means to pay them, because we knowingly morally bankrupted ourselves by mortaging our nation`s future on the politics of falsehoods.

Ahmed sahib, when a person gives me poison and I drink that poison and as a result die, the action, which caused my death was mine alone and I cannot blame the person for giving me the posion, can I? It was my decision to drink it and therefore, the finality of the act was a suicide and no matter, how much you claim it was a murder, the reality will not be fudged with the semantics of the manner in which the death occured. :)

Ciao

Re: # 183

It seems that you and the Indians are counting on the wrong people.

Ciao

Re:#190 by cayenne

Check out the article ``The last days of Londonistan`` that came out in the BBC News website on July 27th.

One of the things it highlights is what I have been saying all along - that INDIANS HAVE BEEN FAR MORE PATIENT AND TOLERANT THAN THE WEST.

Only 1 person dead in the Netherlands - Theo Van Gogh - and the whole country is rapidly changing its pro-immigration stance.

``Londonistan`` was nurturing jihadi elements because they themselves were unaffected - the jihadis were killing people in India - only gave the British an opportunity to pontificate, and people like Farzana and tahmed32 to say - ``see, you Indians should TRY to be like the goray log``. But now since the snakes they gave asylum to and nurtured are biting them in the a$$, they are rapidly rewriting all those laws that radical muslims like Farzana and tahmed32 loved to quote.

The other day they were interviewing some neighbors of one of the London bombers on CNN. One of them looked Paki, and tried being truthful unlike the other Muslims interviewed. According to him suicide bombings were completely justified depending on the circumstances. The police packed him into a van and took him to the police station for interrogation. (Can you imagine the same done to Farzana in India?)

So I ask - if 52 people dead is enough for goray log to enact laws to throw out people who commit offences such as ``indirect incitement to terrorism`` and ``acts preparatory to terrorism``, then why can`t we, after more than 50,000 dead, enact laws to throw out thousands of Mullahs and Separatists in Kashmir who do this all day, AS WELL AS PEOPLE LIKE FARZANA?

NOW THAT THE GORAY LOG HAVE SHOWN US THE WAY, AND WE ARE THEREFORE CLEARED FOR DOING SO, COULD WE PLEASE ENACT LAWS TO DO THIS JUST LIKE THE GORAY LOG? BECAUSE NOW NOBODY CAN CRITICIZE US. BECAUSE THE GORAY LOG, WHO ALWAYS SET THE STANDARDS OF WHAT IS RIGHT, HAVE NOW DONE THAT THEMSELVES, AFTER A MUCH SMALLER NUMBER OF PEOPLE DEAD.

CAN WE DO IT, PLEASE?

SEE, THE GORAY LOG ARE DOING IT TOO.

PLEASE?

so where`s the freedom loving capt clueless now?

By Paul Watson, Times Staff Writer

ASADABAD, Afghanistan — Telephone and power lines haven`t reached the villages clinging to the craggy mountainsides of Kunar province. Digital phones and computer chips are even further beyond the shepherds` imaginations.

So when sophisticated bombs detonated by long-range cordless phones began blowing up under U.S. and Afghan military vehicles on mountain tracks, investigators knew they had to search elsewhere for the masterminds.

Afghan officials immediately focused on nearby Pakistan and its military, whose Inter-Services Intelligence agency helped create the Taliban in the early 1990s and provided training and equipment to help the Muslim extremists win control over most of the country.

Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf joined the Bush administration`s war on terrorism and publicly turned against the Taliban immediately after the Sept. 11 attacks. But Afghan officials allege that Taliban and allied fighters who fled to Pakistan after the U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan in late 2001 are learning new, more lethal tactics from the Pakistani military at numerous training bases.

``Pakistan is lying,`` said Lt. Sayed Anwar, acting head of Afghanistan`s counter-terrorism department. ``We have very correct reports from their areas. We have our intelligence agents inside Pakistan`s border as well.

``If Pakistan tells the truth, the problems will stop in Afghanistan. They say they are friends of Americans, and yet they order these people to kill Americans.``

At least 38 U.S. troops have died from hostile fire in Afghanistan this year, higher than the annual combat death toll for any year since the invasion.

Musharraf has denied that his military supports the Taliban or any other Afghan insurgents and the Bush administration and U.S. military spokesmen continue to praise Pakistan`s role in combating terrorism.

Pakistan`s army recently added 4,000 troops to the 70,000 soldiers patrolling the rugged, nearly 1,500-mile, border between the countries in what it says is a determined effort to stop infiltrations of Afghanistan.

Pakistani Maj. Gen. Shaukat Sultan, a military spokesman, said it was ridiculous to suggest that Pakistan had a secret operation to train insurgents to build complex electronic bombs.

``This is just a figment of some absurd mind, nothing else,`` Sultan said.

High-tech bombs similar to those being found in Afghanistan have killed Pakistani soldiers too, he said. More than 250 Pakistani troops have died in border operations in the last year, Sultan said.

``We haven`t found any sanctuary, so far, where such items probably could be made,`` he said, adding that Pakistan`s military didn`t know where the sophisticated bomb-making technology was coming from.

Anwar, the Afghan official, who has worked in intelligence for 27 years, acknowledged that there was no smoking gun linking insurgents in Afghanistan to Pakistan`s military intelligence.



Yet despite the Pakistani military`s assertions, increasing numbers of guerrillas are crossing into eastern and southern Afghanistan, Anwar and other Afghan officials said.

``Last year, the enemy wasn`t able to attack our checkpoints or plant so many mines,`` Anwar said. ``This year, they have become very strong.``

Anwar said reports from intelligence agents across the border and 50 captured prisoners describe an extensive network of militant training camps in areas of Pakistan`s federally administered North Waziristan tribal area where government forces are firmly in control.

Tauda China, a village in the area, which is home to Pushtun tribes, is the site of one camp where Inter-Services Intelligence agents trained militants, Anwar said. He alleged that there were as many as six other camps in the surrounding valley, which is closed to outsiders and guarded by Pakistani troops and armed Afghans.

``Our agents have been there,`` Anwar said. ``They tried to enter the valley and the soldiers didn`t allow them.``

Zulfiqar Ali, a Pakistani journalist who freelances for the Los Angeles Times, recently reported that at least some training camps that were closed on Musharraf`s orders have been reopened.

The government denies that there are training camps. But Ali, who also writes for the Pakistani magazine the Herald, visited one camp and found armed militants with fresh recruits as young as 13 undergoing 18-day ``ideological orientation`` and weapons training. Several sources said 13 militant camps had been reactivated in the Mansehra region alone in the first week of May.

Militants said their official funding had continued during Musharraf`s ban, but the camps had been abandoned and falling apart until this spring.

``Our transport fleet is back, electricity has been restored and the communications system is in place,`` a militant guide reportedly boasted to Ali.

The reported reopening of militant training camps in Pakistan coincides with the discovery of the high-tech bombs in Afghanistan.

Two months ago, Afghan security forces discovered six high-tech bombs in the town of Sarowbi, east of Kabul, the Afghan capital. The triggers consisted of long-range cordless phones attached with black electrical tape to electronic boxes, which Anwar believes convert the ringing phone`s signal into an electrical charge, detonating the explosives.

``These phones are Pakistani-made phones,`` he said.

Since March, when heavy winter snow in the insurgents` hide-outs began to melt, the Taliban and its allies have been intensifying attacks on military and civilian targets in Afghanistan.

In addition to the rising number of U.S. deaths, about 700 people, including Afghan civilians, soldiers and insurgents, have died in the escalated fighting.

In late June, suspected Taliban guerrillas ambushed a four-man Navy SEAL reconnaissance unit high in the Hindu Kush mountain range of Kunar province. Only one of the SEALs survived the attack, and only by good fortune, according to the Pentagon`s account. A rocket-propelled grenade blast knocked him down a mountainside, and despite his wounds he managed to escape to a village that gave him shelter.

Sixteen U.S. troops sent to rescue the SEALs died when insurgents shot down their helicopter with a rocket-propelled grenade.

Lt. Naqibullah Nooristani, operations commander for Afghan troops fighting alongside U.S. forces in Kunar, said the Taliban and its allies were proving so resilient because they were receiving improved training and equipment just across the border in Pakistan.

The guerrillas who escaped after attacking the U.S. troops left behind trash that suggests they have a good supply chain, Nooristani said.

``When our soldiers got up on the mountain, we saw empty cans of Pepsi and old running shoes, which means they changed into new ones for the operation,`` the lieutenant said, sitting on the edge of a cot where he sleeps next to his desk.

``They have Pepsis in the mountains while I can`t find them here in the city,`` Nooristani said. ``That means they are well supported.``

The lieutenant estimated there were 300 Taliban fighters just in the Pec valley northwest of Asadabad, the provincial capital. Thousands more are fighting in several other border provinces in eastern and southern Afghanistan, Afghan officials said.

Police recently found four remote-controlled bombs in the luggage of an Afghan taxi passenger traveling on the main road from Jalalabad, near the Pakistani border, said Anwar, the Afghan counter-terrorism chief. The detonators were small, silver-colored explosive capsules that were made in Pakistan, he said.

The man transporting the bomb components, Sanaullah Khan, was from Parwan province, north of Kabul.

Under interrogation, Khan said he had entered Afghanistan with four Pakistani men after receiving training at a camp in Shamshatu, near Peshawar, Pakistan, Anwar said, reading from an interrogator`s report.

Khan provided few details about the training camp, Anwar said.

Shamshatu is the site of a large U.N. camp for Afghan refugees. As recently as this spring, Pakistani newspaper reports said 90% of the camp`s residents were loyal to Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, a former prime minister and warlord whose Hizb-i-Islami militia is now allied with the Taliban against the U.S.-led coalition in Afghanistan.

Khan told investigators he had received the explosive devices found in his bag from a Pakistani whom he identified as Fazal Rabi. He said Rabi lived at the camp and was ``very well connected with Al Qaeda,`` according to the interrogation report.

Lt. Gen. Moin Faqir, who oversees the Afghan army`s operations as central corps commander, said his forces first started seeing bombs with computer components six months ago in Kunar province.

``It is not easy to use these mines unless you are well trained for it,`` he said.

Unlike conventional land mines that have plagued Afghanistan for decades, these new devices are not triggered by the pressure of wheels rolling over them, Faqir said.

Instead, they are designed to explode directly under the vehicle`s passenger cab, increasing the chances that a relatively small explosion would maim or kill. They are also easier to conceal than regular land mines.

Faqir said he could not say with certainty who was providing the equipment and training to build the new bombs.

``I think we all know where these mines are from,`` he added with a pained smile.

The Afghan general chose his words carefully. A uniformed U.S. military advisor was sitting on a couch next to him, taking notes on everything he said. Without using names, Faqir made it clear he thought the source of the sophisticated bombs was an enemy of the worst kind because it pretended to be an ally.

``No one should have two faces with his friend,`` he said, adding that such people would suffer shame and destruction. ``Once you shake hands with somebody, you should stand with him till the end.``

Re: # 189, ZahraJ: Thanks for stating that you had problems only with the format of my presentation. I hope you agreed with the substance of what Musharraf had to say and my evaluations thereof.
As for responding to the presentation, I would refer you to my explanation of the format and the reason thereof to #180. You see, I believe it is harder (= more work) to respond/assess response to the normal essay format of an article because, then, it is more likely to talk cross purposes. This is particularly so for an evaluative article like mine. In the format I selected Musharraf is making a point and I am succinctly evaluating it. Now you as a reader on any issue can either agree/disagree with Musharraf or me or both. When I would assess your comment I would have to see which of the six possible positions is taken by you.
As for the asterisks, don`t you they are the prettiest symbols on the keyboard to separate individual ideas?!

I think the time is right for Pakistan to compromise and settle scores with India.Perception is often more damaging than reality and there has settled in the mind of the common man/woman of the world that Pakistan is a hotbed of islamic militancy.The recent London attacks have only deepened the perception.In the long run this can do damage to pakistan.It is the common man/woman be they in corporate, government and society who decide where they spend their money goes and where they invest.That is why India is riding high on the economic front.Everyone knows the many faults of India, but it is the common investor of the world who is investing in the development process of India, who is forcing their governments to reappraise their relationship , both politically and economically, with India.Government s can only offer a limited amount of aid and that too can be cut off at the whim of a bureaucrat.Credit to the indians for the assiduous cultivation of their democratic and open society impressions throughout the world.

What has pakistan to gain from associating with islamic militancy??.Nothing.Even islamic countries like Saudi Arabia are maintaining excellent relations with India and the volume of trade between Saudi and india is far higher than the same between Saudi and Pakistan.The saudis maintain and supply India`s petroleum reserves at negotiated rates , making it easier for india to spend resources searching for alternative sources of energy both at home and abroad.to By making peace with India , pakistan will send a strong signal to the rest of the world that they are a nation willing to compromise for the sake of peace and development and general harmony.I`m sure the indians will compromise too, for their stakes are much higher!!.They are on the threshold of going from a developing to a developed country and the process will take another ten years atleast to mature.They also need peace to ensure a smooth transition of their social and economic progress in this regard.I hope this process occurs!!.

Re: # 182

Dear Inquirer: This was a hilarious post (the part addressed to me). It seems that you really like ``asterisks``. Sorry for my insensitivity :) I did not say anywhere that I disagreed with your stance. I did say that it is difficult to read and respond appropriately. I even gave you the due respect by asking you to resubmit your effort - with a little bit of reorganization(ok, I forgot to be succinct). I guess it is a matter of personal preference and taste. I have quite a few points on the subject under discussion but I will not share them till I find an appropriate write-up on the front page.

With due respect, despite your genuine effort to raise awareness and concern on an important and sensitive matter impacting the rest of the world, it is very difficult to respond to your article in its current form.

On a less serious note: I hope I at least addressed your post in a polite and appropriate manner :)

I look forward to another contribution by you on Chowk where I can share my perspectives without complaining about the format.

Regards.

Romair, #185: You have raised issues which should be addressed. At what level are we going to stop? Will there be as many countries as there are people? Certainly not, even you would agree.
What is the aim of formation of nations? Nations are formed so that people can learn to live social life accepting individuals comprising nations. ``God`` has given humans, among other animals and plants, a chance to live on this earth. Due to localizations we developed shared traits such as language, etc. Various population groups due to geographical reasons come together and interact and develop composite nations.
We need not go back to 1000 years when Hindus used to supposedly exist separately in India. Those who are cognizant of such things would confirm that even two thousand years ago there were dividing considerations. We have to start at the present not even 1947, now is the reference point.
Indians and Pakistanis have to live together in a civilized fashion. Kashmiris are not a separate nation they are included in the South Asian population group. Should Biharis and Andhraites be living in a separate nations? One should disabuse one`s mind of divisive mentality. First, Indians and Pakistanis have learn to live together. Then Asians and Europeans will learn to do the same. Then, hopefully, in a distant future, may be after ten generations have passed the whole world will come together and develop unified world.

Indeed this world will not be just for humans. As shephards of life the humans will have to undertake and fulfil their resposibility of even keeping developing populations of snakes. It will be the resposibility of us humans to assure survival of an many DNAs as we could possibly can.

Now return to today. It is merely a link in the infinite chain of days. What should we do today? We have to address the problem that we can address today. ``God`` will give us the wisdom to identify our roles and minimum requirements we HAVE to fulfill.
Returning to Kashmiris. Today`s reality is the Indians, Pakistanis have to come together to overcome the discombobulation the the division of India wrought on them. In the emergence of the new society we would have to assure reasonable opportunity of development and fulfilment of life for ALL Indians and Pakistanis and their Kashmiris. These three labels are are merely that - that is labels. WE WILL HAVE TO ASSURE MUTUAL ACCOMODATION BASED ON THE RESOURCES AT HAND. Will there be false steps? Yes, galore. It is our responsibility to come togehter and be able to say as Nehru said at the last meeting of the National Planning Commission:

IS TARAH TAI KI HAIN HAMNE MANZILAIN,
GIR PADRE, GIR KAR UTTHE, UTTH KAR CHALE.

#184 by Romair on July 27, 2005 1:50pm PT


Capt Clueless: Balochistan was forcibly annexed by the land of the pure..


I am surprised he feels he has the right to even make such a suggestion..


He made a calm rational suggestion that is probably in Pakiland`s best interest...what`s the alternative? continue to breed jihadis to fight your wars? seeing how well that`s worked out for you in 16 years, you can continue to try...I`m sure the Indians will be happy to see you radicalize your own population to produce jihadis willing to die for you...beghairat banias are sure to know that the flow of jihadis can`t be controlled by a gardenhose- focussing it on where you need it...the pipe will spring a leak, as it has now, and soak the whole of pakiland...

I`m surprised that you continue to act all erudite, especially after your track record of calling events....


Rest assured if this right were given to the Kashmiris, your personal lives would not be affected at all.


Rest assured that the current situation isn`t affecting the lives of the average Indians...If you think India is bleeding and it`s just a matter of time before it hands over Kashmir to you on a platter, you`re in cloud cuckoo land..



but a society based on 100% survivial of the fittest, with the weak totally occupied and crushed by the powerful.


That`s how it already is in Pakistan, isn`t it? The army, being the fittest and having the guns, is free to crush democratically elected governments...If they had the same success in Kargil as they had in ``capturing`` the PM`s palace, you`d be back in your ``ancestral`` home in srinigar now...

ferozk: What we have is a failure of character - a lack of responsibility shown by our leaders from Ayub on down. When will this long tunnel of one damned ``indispensable man`` after another end for Pakistan?

Inquirer: I didnt see any attempt to respond to those who were criticizing the quality of the article - which you must admit is confusing the way it is structured. Nor did I see any participation from you in the discussion on your own article. So, I hope you will understand why I suggested not bothering with the article (if people found it confusing).

Anyway: As far as I am concerned, I am less concerned about the right of self-determination of the Kashmiris, and more concerned about the right of self-determination of Pakistanis. No doubt the Indian government had no business forcing kashmiris to become part of India - but what the hell. 50 years of feuding is enough. Time to get over that and move on. Peace in the sub-continent is far more important than how the damned border is drawn.

Inquirer/Ferozek: Are both of you against letting the Kashmiris decide what they should do with their future? Do you believe that human beings should be allowed to make decisions about their future, or do you think such decisions should be dictated to them? And what is the ethical and moral authority under which such decisions should be dictated.

To me the biggest source of violence in the world, is the desire of one human being to dominate another, just to satisfy the former`s ego and beliefs. This is the core problem in everything from a husband beating his wife, to one country occupying another.......

The internal desire for any human being to be free, and to live on his own wishes, as opposed to the convenience of individuals many cities and oceans away, is an uncontrollable and unextinguishable desire. It is extremely difficult to kill that desire. This is why even after 1000 years of being ruled, Hindus in India wanted to be free......

If such a desire did not exist, the world would be nothing but a society based on 100% survivial of the fittest, with the weak totally occupied and crushed by the powerful. As someone who is assoicated with the area of Kashmir, I certainly disagree with Feroze`s suggestions. I am surprised he feels he has the right to even make such a suggestion. In fact, the whole problem is that too many people in our societies feel they have the right to make suggestions about others, rather than letting the others make suggestions about themselves.......

Let every human being live in freedom, based on his/her own wishes. That is a goal we should all be aiming for. Our aim should not be to impose our solutions onto others.........

The solution to the Kashmir problem is right in front of everyone. Let them decide what they want to do. It is under this same basis that India and Pakistan (and Bangladesh), themselves, were formed. Why not give others this right also. Rest assured if this right were given to the Kashmiris, your personal lives would not be affected at all. If anything, they would get much better.......After a few decades or a generation, no one would even remember that Kashmir, at one time, was occupied or an area of conflict............

So, at best, Feroze has a right to suggest that Pakistan should not support the Kashmiri`s freedom struggle. But I don`t think he has the moral right to decide their fate...........

Re: # 181
feroz sahab: Self interest is not condemnable for itself. The societies are fueled by self-interest. But antisocial behavior and clear dishonesty has to be recognized and branded.

No, we can not give up on you and your kind. Please keep faith and never give up on your significance. We in India count on you!

#24, tahmed32: “So, dont read the article. Read the posts.”
**** Disappointed at your perfunctory approach to the discussions. Thanks to some people may have followed the nonserious attitude toward the article as one can see very few had the consistency/gumption to address the real issues raised therein.****

#41, pmishra2: “It is nice of you to write such an appropriate and timely article.”
****Thanks.****

”But I have bad news for you ! - you are low-life idol worshipper belonging to a brutal, disgusting and violent civilization which due to inadvertent error was not systematically cleansed from the earth. You have no right or standing to comment on higher forms of civilization and religion such as islam.”
**** You have given up on good Muslims and yes they are there. But we DO NEED TO DISABUSE THE MUSLIM POPULATION OF THEIR WAHAABI MULLAHS.****

#93,zahraj: “It appears that the ``intellectuals`` have decided to convene at this board to discuss irrelevant subject matter.”
****True. Thanks to the advice given to you by tahmed32, you also failed to take up issue, assuming you did have them, with my articles.****

#112, zahraj: “In order to ease the tension on this board, Chowk Admin should request Mr. Bhatnagar to consolidate his views in one paragraph and resubmit. This article should not sit on Chowk`s front page. It`s silly.”
**** I do not think that any tension was caused by my article. The respondents, including you did not addreee what the Pakistani President was addressing nor my evaluations thereof. You see you do have to read the article before addressing it.****Now do you see the need for the asterisks?

#136, neeraj1967: “It is a well meaning article and, there is no reason to get worked up on the presumtion that there is a hidden agenda behind or that it is espousing a holier than thou attiude at the cost of Islam,Muslims,Pakistanis.At the rate at which we are killing each other in the name of democracy,religion,state we dont need a meteoric kind of intervention to become extinct a la the dinosaurs.To me the propogation of religion based or nation-state based identity are the most sinister ideas which we have adopted in our fast forward desire to self-destruct.I want to ask a question supposing there were no countries or religion in the world would we cease to exsist as humans? i dont think so!. All of us need to read bill brysons a brief history of every-thing to understand and appreciate the fragility of our exsistence.”
****Thanks.****

#141,premwalla: “****It is far from certain. Until and unless there are three or four fair elections the jury is out on these claims.**** ``}
Couldn`t agree more with your comment above. Thanks for the timely article.
Good review with a point by point commentary.”
****Thanks.****
“Unfortunately, the real solution to Pakistan`s problems lies in the destruction of this self-serving class of selfish epicureans. Let`s let the Mullas finish off these internal enemies before they themselves meet the same fate. Then the country can rejoin its rightful place in undivided India.

Salim”
****Salim, I am delighted to find the clear enunciation of the objective. WE NEED TO THINK WHAT CAN BE DONE TO ACHIEVE THE OBJECTIVE IN A FAIR AND POSITIVE FASHION. THAT HAS TO BE DONE WITH UNDERSTANDING AND CONSENSUS OF ALL GROUPS AND RELIGIONS. WE SHOULD NOT OVEREMPHASIZE THE RELIGION PART.****

#145,rsribhar: “Interesting post by Mr. Premwalla that was filtered out by Chowk Staff. First thing that Pakis have to learn is to give up selective censorship - that is why they and their institutions have no credibility.”
****What censorship are you talking about? I find your version and the original versions to be the same.****

Re: # 178

Pakistanis will never act; now or in the future. There is no point in pinning hopes on people like me, because we are a dying breed in Pakistan and are of no particular importance. The problem in Pakistan is not that its elites are confused, but the problem is that they are self-interested and Pakistan is not in their interest.

Ciao

Apparently, there are a large number of people at Chowk who are unable to grasp my style of discussing an issue starting with a documentable statement and then providing a crisp assessment of the situation, without rigmarole! According to my belief wordiness is self-defeating and worse than no discussion as it is sheer waste of time. A discussion should have a documented basis and clear position on issues but, of course all this should be cogent and not devoid of significance.

As for the subject at hand, it should be OBVIOUS to any clear headed person, example is ferozk #27, that Pakistani populations and most of the intellectuals are lost and unable to act in a coherent fashion for the benefit of Pakistan. Of course, this involves an enunciation of the vision of the ``benefit.`` Most of the Pakistanis, in a deluded fashion, equate the goal of Pakistan as acquisition of Kashmir on a communal basis. They should not forget the fate of the remaining Muslims in India if Kashmir is communalized as the deluded, assisted by the international powers, did for the formation of Pakistan. Furthermore, now the international community has changed and has little patience with Wahaabi Mullahs.

India may not have the likes of Gandhi and Nehru again to uphold the standards of fairness if India is made to pass through a trauma of division again. A very probable condition for the subcontinent will be an internecine civil war for at least fifty years, even if the cool heads can prevail to keep nuclear bombs from raining over it.

RE- #177 by yossarian

A very good point. The taboo associated with the word “bhangi” and other cleaning jobs in South Asia, especially in India with caste playing a big role, is the reason why no one wants to do it. And the ones doing the cleaning work - do it half-heartedly, with little pride because of the idiotic stigma attached to it. And the result is for all to see. The 1st thing a foreigner notices when he comes to India is - the total lack of public sanitation or cleanliness and for them India looks like one big, giant trash can.

Visit any Western countries or poor countries in South America or Asian countries like Thailand, Malaysia, etc. or even poor middle-eastern countries like Yemen or carribean countries inhabited by blacks like Jamaica, Bahamas, etc. and the cleanliness and public sanitation level is pretty high.

Re: # 27
ferozk: You have made a very reasonable and honest suggestion for restoring the peace for India-Pakistan conflict. Pakistanis will do well to pay attention to and support people like you in their country. BUT THEY HAVE TO ACT!

Re: # 175

ajeya, is the term ``...chaparasi`` you used to call attention of this guy supposed to be a insult? I saw kane use the word ``bhangi`` to in another thread to insult somebody else.

I would rather use the well accepted insults like ``mullah`` or ``jehadi`` :) If you use the word chaparasi and bhangi to insult somebody, it reeks of feudalism, which I am under the impression that is long dead in India. Please dont insult a profession that tries to make a honest living.

Just my 2-centimos.

Y

re:#161 by Khansaab
You are one of those who have given a bad name to Pakistanis. They are now simply called Pakis, a derogatory term that means ungrateful at best and barbarians at worst. Read the following article to see why Pakis are not trusted any more in UK:
http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=430508
I can`t blame u for your behaviou if you destroyed your brain cells rocking your head in front of that holy book written by a Beodouin many centuries ago.

I am on a visit to India that is finally coming to an end. I see an India that is comfortable with both ancient cultures and modernity. No doubt Bangalore was a disappointment because of its poor infrastructure, poor roads but i saw a silver lining. Women competing as equals with men. Smartly dressed women whiz past me on a mobike or a scooter. These belong to middle income families and are blazing a new trail. Many opportunities have been thrown up to the young generation of Indians due to BPO and IT boom and these people are making use of these opportunities while people like u sit in your madrassas plotting to blow up the world and dream of Islamic resurgence (whatever that means).
I would advise u to open up and see the world around u instead of being trapped in your own shell. You might find a new world around u if u do so, a world so different from the one u are living that u would have hard time believing what u see. Who knows your dying brain cells may even get rejuvenated?
Sridhar

re:#161 by Khansaab
You are one of those who have given a bad name to Pakistanis. They are now simply called Pakis, a derogatory term that means ungrateful at best and barbarians at worst. Read the following article to see why Pakis are not trusted any more in UK:
http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=430508
I can`t blame u for your behaviou if you destroyed your brain cells rocking your head in front of that holy book written by a Beodouin many centuries ago.

I am on a visit to India that is finally coming to an end. I see an India that is comfortable with both ancient cultures and modernity. No doubt Bangalore was a disappointment because of its poor infrastructure, poor roads but i saw a silver lining. Women competing as equals with men. Smartly dressed women whiz past me on a mobike or a scooter. These belong to middle income families and are blazing a new trail. Many opportunities have been thrown up to the young generation of Indians due to BPO and IT boom and these people are making use of these opportunities while people like u sit in your madrassas plotting to blow up the world and dream of Islamic resurgence (whatever that means).
I would advise u to open up and see the world around u instead of being trapped in your own shell. You might find a new world around u if u do so, a world so different from the one u are living that u would have hard time believing what u see. Who knows your dying brain cells may even get rejuvenated?
Sridhar

#161 by KhanChaprasi

[Your arguments are as infantile as a senile child’s whose nerve of farts has been pinched.]

And these imbeciles are allowed to post on Chowk!

It is always suspicious when people add a “saab” to the end of their names by themselves.


[Like you say that, you will cut off four of your own fingers and point them all at us!? How pathetic can you get? ]

O what an imbecile.

[Be that as you may, eat your lily livered heart out, for we shall continue to dominate
despite one or two setbacks here or there]

One or two setbacks….

Hahahahahaha….

Here or there…

Hahahahaha…..

Continue to surrender?

Hahahahaha…….


[as our forefathers did (if you have studied history?), for almost 1200 years when we ruled over you. I speak of people like Mahmud-i- Ghazni, Mohammad Ghori, Alaudin Khilji, Sher Shah Suri, Ahmad Shah Abdali and many more of the ilk. Such were the people who made people like you to “behoove!”. However when I said that we all must behoove, naturally I was only appealing to the sensible people from amongst all of us, not to trivial bigots like you.]

Another descendent of Timur the Lame! No less…..

:-)



[As for you, go on keep throwing your juvenile temper tantrums until you are blue in the face and hoarse in the throat for all the good or bad it would do us all here. It may only make your parents want to put some sense in you.]

“Make my parents”? Huh? What is THAT all about?

Re: # 170 Actually most of these people do have some sort of a roof over their heads but its only just. They live in urban slums.

An article on Pat Robertson’s Christian Broadcasting Network website, which is the only “real” news for the neo-cons

JULY 26, 2005
Is the War on Terror Headed to Pakistan?
http://www.cbn.com/blogs/dalehurd/050726.asp

The London bombing, with its Pakistani connection, has again thrust the spotlight on Islamabad as a dubious, and some would say, double-dealing “partner” in the war on terror. I’ll explain why, in a few paragraphs. First, some interesting background…
For years, a confidential U.S. military source has told me repeatedly what has since become conventional wisdom: Osama bin Laden has been living across the border from Afghanistan in the mountains of Pakistan, and he has eluded capture with the assistance of Pakistan’s military.
His lair is a high altitude location that can be assaulted only by dropping commandoes from aircraft. The rugged terrain and high altitude environment would make such an assault an extremely difficult task. But my source says the biggest factor preventing the nabbing of bin Laden is that it would have to be a secret incursion into Pakistani territory without Pakistan’s knowledge. He says American commanders in Afghanistan know that members of Pakistan’s military pass information to bin Laden.
Consider that when U.S. forces crossed into Pakistan earlier this month and killed 24 terrorists on Pakistani soil, Pakistan did not thank us.
General Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan`s military ruler, reportedly told U.S. Central Command Chief Gen. John Abizaid that “we want our borders to be respected in the war on terrorism and will not put up with future border breaches.``
My source says the Pakistanis are such an unreliable ally that the U.S has resorted to installing its own clandestine network of operatives inside Pakistan in order to nab high value al-Qaeda figures and spirit them out of the country without the Pakistani government’s knowledge (and interference).
So to what degree can we still call Pakistan an ally in the war on terror?
Musharraf told the Financial Times of London Monday that “the command and control system of al-Qaeda in his country has been destroyed, excluding any possibility that the terrorist network could have carried out this month`s bombings in London and Egypt.”
This claim is laughable, and either Musharraf is really that out of touch with reality, or he’s playing a double game in which he hopes to hang on to power by trying please both us and the forces within his military who support bin Laden. I vote for the latter.
The secular Musharraf, in his role as modern version of the last Czar of Russia, presides by force over an unruly Islamic nation that largely despises him and the war on terror.
Pakistan is considered by terror experts to be the most radicalized Muslim state in the world. In fact, the word Taliban, which means “student,” and which we associate with Afghanistan, actually refers to the Pashtun tribesmen, both Afghan and Pakistani, who left radical Madrassas (Islamic religious schools) to fight Jihad in Afghanistan; first against the Soviets and then against Americans.
Musharraf could never win a fair election in Pakistan. Osama bin Laden would stand a much better chance, were he Pakistani.
Pakistani Scholar Ahmed Rashid told the German magazine Der Spiegel Monday that “Pakistan remains the global center for terrorism and for the remnants of al-Qaeda, which is (sic) still very strong here.“ The attack on London is just the most recent display of that.
Strategic guru George Friedman has predicted that the war on terror would conclude in Pakistan. We may not be nearing the end of the war on terror, but Pakistan seems to be where the conflict is headed next.

I went to the other thread (Kashmiri Pandits). It`s kinda scary out there! Ye kissa hai kya aakhir?

kaalchakra: When we are concerned about future generations, then those of us living in the present clearly share a common goal, namely a more peaceful and progressive world. The curse of too many people is that they dont look ahead. They talk about nothing but ``perceived grievances`` (to use south asians phrase from this board earlier on), and use that as an excuse to do what their own descendants will no doubt curse them for: creating divisions and hatreds among communities that detract from the really important problems (like poverty alleviation).

southasian #168 granted that for the poorest of the urban poor (i.e. those living on the streets), it is not possible to have access to lavatories. Indeed, this is true for homeless people in a wealthy nation like the US as well.

I was not talking of them. How about those who do have a roof over their heads? what stops them from digging a damn hole in the ground, putting four walls around it, and so doing what they have to do without impressing the rest of us with their toilet performance??

re: Ally # 165

Actually, nothing is uniquely wrong with Islam in this regard. *Any* religion will not work in public. The ONLY reason Islam gets so much beaten up on is that its followers are unable to agree on keeping it in the private domain. Once they do so, Islam would immediately severe its commonly-made association with so many ills of our times.


tahmed# 163

You are so right. We are all constantly pulled downward.

``We will be living the rest of our lives in the future`` - surely, one of the greatest lessons of our lives. Thank you.

Re: # 167 Tahmed: Actually something as basic as a lavatory is or is considered to be a luxury by a section of urban poor. In their case it is more of a economic issue than attitudinal shelter and food being the foremost priorities.

southasia #166 Indeed, development issues are the only ones that matter. Everything else is trivial. I have seen for myself the dignity of the poor - not just in India and in Pakistan, and in other parts of Asia, Africa and Latin America. The attitude that poverty and the real life misery of people (not to mention deaths) is something to be mocked that too many posters on chowk have displayed came as a particular surprise after that. Clearly, a person can get advanced college degrees and yet remain primitive in his basic attitudes.

On the subject of sanitation: the most important thing I think is a change in attitude. That happens, I think, when people live in a cleaner environment for a little while. They need to understand that working with your hands to clean up a place is not something to be ashamed of.

Re: # 164 Muqaddam, Kaalchakra, Ajeya, Arjun: I am glad that finally we are talking about development issues. Graphic details provided here by our friends should only serve to make these issues a priority . I wonder if some of our resources could be pooled together to help out these people with basic requirements like sanitation. It will go a long way in making India the country we all cherish so much for it to be.

Will Pakistanis Listen and Act?

No, just some show sha for the gorey, and then all pungas will be back on...

nothing will happen till mullahism policy is reversed.... Islam DOES NOT WORK IN GOVT. we have `experimented` many times, we cannot agree on which kind of Islam etc. its best left to individuals how `Muslim` they want to be...

`Islamic` should be removed from title of Pakistan, Islam is personal and should stay OUT OF POLITICS it should not be used and abused by the dirty politicians... look where the abuse of religion has taken Pakistan, its there for you to see...

Re: # 161
Dear Khansaheb,

Alas, yet another Paki living in self delusion! One never ceases to bump into these diehard types. It is the “we ruled over you” obsession gripping the likes of you that has already taken Pakistan down the drain over the years. Always trying to flex its muscles, thinking that India is just a walk over ( agli namaz Dilli ki Ja’ama masjid mein parhengay ), getting defeated, nay, ousted, routed and dismembered, yet ready to go for another round, like the famous defeated pehalwan who is forever dreaming of chitt karaoing the one that floored him. One just wonders how long you guys are going to get beaten, aren’t you ever going to stop? We are told that in your military academies the gentleman cadets have to take an oath that they shall avenge the defeat of 1971. Ab buss karo! Khansaheb,you have become fat on crumbs thrown at you by the Saudis and other Arabs, and we suppose therefrom this masti . But for how long are you going to keep begging these Sheiks? You renamed Lyallpur as Faisalabad to express your gratitude to the Saudis ( how subservient a qaum can get?), you have named a stadium in Lahore after Gaddafi during a visit when he is said to have come close to the IndoPak border and shouted abuses and spat at India. Remember, the Arab oil is running out, so the Arabs are not going to indulge in a terrorist state for long ( Pakis are suspected of involvement in terror attacks in Arab countries, maybe as a mark of gratitude to the Arabs for their largesses?).
The names of Ghazni, Ghori etc. that you and your ilk keep repeating, for heaven’s sake, cannot be appropriated by you as your own. Your forefathers were Indians and Hindus at that (your mother tongue which is either Punjabi, Sindhi or Avadhi/Bhojpuri/brajwasi(Urdu) clearly establishes that) and not these foreign raiders, looters and rapists. You are us. Your real forefathers also partook of cow urine, so you have it in your blood as much as the Indians !Your great great grandmothers, great great great grand mothers and great great great great grand mothers ( go back for 1200 years, as per your count) were raped by these outsiders and their progeny changed their religion ( obviously not voluntarily). So how much ever you try to appropriate to yourself the ancestry of the attacking hordes from Central Asia, you are nothing but Indians who turned Paki.

As far as defecating crowds, a friend from Central Asia still remembers that he cannot get out of his system the stench of human dung he experienced during his visit to Karachi recently.
For your kind information, as per the latest UN statistics, India’s per capita income is USD 550 where as Pakistan’s is USD 480.

This post was just by the way

Khansahib/kaalchakra: I think, gentlemen, that you are permitting the worst written posts on this board to set the agenda and tone of your discussions.

Khansahib, I share your disgust of posters like Ajeya - they come here with a stupid agenda (i.e. ``Islam is bad, hinduism is good`` in case of Ajeya), not here to educate himself on anything. So, dont waste your time with such posters. I agree with you on the misery and filth one sees in India (having witnessed some of the scenes you mention myself at Bombay airport of all places). But let us not fall to the level of the worst of the Indian posters (and there are plenty) by mocking the real life misery of poor people in India. While in Pakistan we may not have such extreme scenes, there are enough poor people in Pakistan who come pretty close. Let us hope, instead, for progress in the sub-continent where no one has to live in misery.

My second point to Khansahib: Please shed this arrogance that causes you to refer to muslim conquerors of past centuries. Arrogance is the province of losers and fools, and I am sure you are not one of them. I personally believe they violated the fundamental tenets of Islam when they launched their raids on India, btw. Nothing to be proud of. Look instead at where we are today, and where we need to be in the future. Since, as someone said, we will be living the rest of our lives in the future - as will our children, and their children, and so forth. So, looking at the present - India is in my view a part of the solution for Pakistan, not a part of the problem. Peace with India is the surest way to get rid of the poverty I mentioned above that exists in both countries - and which, I repeat, is mocked only by lowlife (of the kind that plenty of Indians on chowk have proved themselves to be). Similarly, India provides an excellent example of military non-interference in politics, and of the democratic process.

Shahenshah Mugle Azam KhanSaab

Gustaakhi muaf ho tau arz karoon ki it takes time for the ruled to learn manners from their lords and rulers. As our divinely-justified ruler and natural-born master, you would not have failed to notice that we are a nation of slow learners. Then, in total disregard to our continued education, you suddenly stopped ruling over us.

Time for the doosra aalishaan daaur of the nihaayat umdaa taleem you so very generously arranged for the benefit of hum jahil log?

Aaapka shukraguzaar Khidmatgaar

Re: # 143

I agree, there are many great Indian minds (like Abul Kalam Azad, the mad scientist/President and father of your Indian bomb, and a Muslim the likes of whom you would like to exterminate from the face of this earth). Unfortunately, maybe because of consumption of too much toxic piss, you cannot be counted as one of those great minds that you speak of. Your mind seems to be as dark, benumbed and stunted as your physical demeanor would suggest, unhappily skirting the terminals of imbecility. Your arguments are as infantile as a senile child’s whose nerve of farts has been pinched. Like you say that, you will cut off four of your own fingers and point them all at us!? How pathetic can you get? Maybe India is a nation of angels, most of whom are dying of starvation, poverty, homelessness, disease, corruption, bigotry, racist wars, and a humongous lot of them sleep on sidewalks, or between railroad tracks, and when they all wake up in the morning, a well orchestrated symphony of defecating ritual is performed like a matinee movie for all astonished eyes to see, amidst horrible stink. I don’t exactly know which category of these heavenly angels you fall in. Be that as you may, eat your lily livered heart out, for we shall continue to dominate despite one or two setbacks here or there, as our forefathers did (if you have studied history?), for almost 1200 years when we ruled over you. I speak of people like Mahmud-i- Ghazni, Mohammad Ghori, Alaudin Khilji, Sher Shah Suri, Ahmad Shah Abdali and many more of the ilk. Such were the people who made people like you to “behoove!”. However when I said that we all must behoove, naturally I was only appealing to the sensible people from amongst all of us, not to trivial bigots like you. As for you, go on keep throwing your juvenile temper tantrums until you are blue in the face and hoarse in the throat for all the good or bad it would do us all here. It may only make your parents want to put some sense in you.

Arjun_m:

Just to clarify: I had a genuine question on Modi. After much thought and a quick glance on a few posts, it seemed that ``Modi`` is a pet name of an Indian Politician, I guess? I am sorry I am not very well versed on the Indian Politicians. My ignorance or I should say lack of interest. Still, my question was not to make a mockery out of his pet name. It was an innocent query.

Note: After seeing khamakhwa`s post, all the more reason I owed you a clarification.

Thanks.

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