Will Pakistanis Listen and Act?

Re: # 186

The failure has not been of a character, but rather the failure to recognize the true nature of the character itself. There is no harm in uttering a lie and but no one forced us to believe the lie and when we did such on our own free will, we gave up the right to blame our leaders. We have to start holding ourself responsible for our actions.

Our problem is one of conformity and we always conformed, with deception, to avoid the unpleasantness of stating the truth. The truth is that, we accepted denial as our reality and in ignoring reality, we believed that the nobility of our intentions and actions, would outweigh the consequences of our mistakes. Now, the wages of our sins are upon us and we have no means to pay them, because we knowingly morally bankrupted ourselves by mortaging our nation`s future on the politics of falsehoods.

Ahmed sahib, when a person gives me poison and I drink that poison and as a result die, the action, which caused my death was mine alone and I cannot blame the person for giving me the posion, can I? It was my decision to drink it and therefore, the finality of the act was a suicide and no matter, how much you claim it was a murder, the reality will not be fudged with the semantics of the manner in which the death occured. :)

Ciao

Inquirer: I didnt see any attempt to respond to those who were criticizing the quality of the article - which you must admit is confusing the way it is structured. Nor did I see any participation from you in the discussion on your own article. So, I hope you will understand why I suggested not bothering with the article (if people found it confusing).

Anyway: As far as I am concerned, I am less concerned about the right of self-determination of the Kashmiris, and more concerned about the right of self-determination of Pakistanis. No doubt the Indian government had no business forcing kashmiris to become part of India - but what the hell. 50 years of feuding is enough. Time to get over that and move on. Peace in the sub-continent is far more important than how the damned border is drawn.

Inquirer/Ferozek: Are both of you against letting the Kashmiris decide what they should do with their future? Do you believe that human beings should be allowed to make decisions about their future, or do you think such decisions should be dictated to them? And what is the ethical and moral authority under which such decisions should be dictated.

To me the biggest source of violence in the world, is the desire of one human being to dominate another, just to satisfy the former`s ego and beliefs. This is the core problem in everything from a husband beating his wife, to one country occupying another.......

The internal desire for any human being to be free, and to live on his own wishes, as opposed to the convenience of individuals many cities and oceans away, is an uncontrollable and unextinguishable desire. It is extremely difficult to kill that desire. This is why even after 1000 years of being ruled, Hindus in India wanted to be free......

If such a desire did not exist, the world would be nothing but a society based on 100% survivial of the fittest, with the weak totally occupied and crushed by the powerful. As someone who is assoicated with the area of Kashmir, I certainly disagree with Feroze`s suggestions. I am surprised he feels he has the right to even make such a suggestion. In fact, the whole problem is that too many people in our societies feel they have the right to make suggestions about others, rather than letting the others make suggestions about themselves.......

Let every human being live in freedom, based on his/her own wishes. That is a goal we should all be aiming for. Our aim should not be to impose our solutions onto others.........

The solution to the Kashmir problem is right in front of everyone. Let them decide what they want to do. It is under this same basis that India and Pakistan (and Bangladesh), themselves, were formed. Why not give others this right also. Rest assured if this right were given to the Kashmiris, your personal lives would not be affected at all. If anything, they would get much better.......After a few decades or a generation, no one would even remember that Kashmir, at one time, was occupied or an area of conflict............

So, at best, Feroze has a right to suggest that Pakistan should not support the Kashmiri`s freedom struggle. But I don`t think he has the moral right to decide their fate...........

Re: # 184

I am in favor of allowing the Kashmiris decide their future, but I do not see how they can decide their future, when their future is made a pawn in the game of political egoism, between India and Pakistan. As long as Pakistan supports the militancy in Kashmir, it denies the Kashmiris a right to decide their future.

I agree, with you that it is the wish of one to dominate another that causes misery in the world and this principle is true to spousal violence to international wars and is also applicable to the intolerance caused by one religion, any religion, thinking that it is better than other religions.

I do not have the morality or the right to decide another`s future and in the same sense, I do not have the moral right or the political right to condemn a person to death, because of the nature of my personal politics. If I did not have the right to make this suggestion of making the LoC into an international border and I was wrong, then it is also not right to favor a course of action, which results in the death of people and by favoring such a policy, which regardless of its good intentions causes suffering, its amounts to deciding other peoples` future or making suggestions about their future. :)

``Let every human being live in freedom, based on his/her own wishes. That is a goal we should all be aiming for. Our aim should not be to impose our solutions onto others.........``

I totally agree, with you, but the Pakistani army does not seem to understand this advice!

The solution to the Kashmir problem is right in front of everyone and I agree, with you, but they cannot decide what is right for them, because the Pakistani army thinks it knows what is best for Kashmir. :).

``So, at best, Feroze has a right to suggest that Pakistan should not support the Kashmiri`s freedom struggle. But I don`t think he has the moral right to decide their fate...........``

Neither does any one have the moral right to allow the killings in Kashmir to persist and when such a policy is favored that results in deaths, it is also the same as deciding Kashmiris future and is also wrong. :)

Ciao

Re: # 197, ferozk:
I agree with your statements to Romair. Let us admit, for the honesty`s sake, that the question of Independent Kashmir does not arise. The continental situation just makes this impossible, whether Romair or his ilk like it or not. The issue to be settled first is how India and Pakistan can learn to live together. Under this proviso, we need to let Kashmir be divided as that would lead to a general rapprochement without which nothing would be doable.
Ultimately, of coure, it will depend on how India/Pakistan treat their Kashmiris. And if the Kashmiris do not agree with the solution what resources they can put up to change the situation. They have to envision their destiny. May it is in their benefit to subsume their identity in the wider purviews of India/Pakistan.

#24, tahmed32: “So, dont read the article. Read the posts.”
**** Disappointed at your perfunctory approach to the discussions. Thanks to some people may have followed the nonserious attitude toward the article as one can see very few had the consistency/gumption to address the real issues raised therein.****

#41, pmishra2: “It is nice of you to write such an appropriate and timely article.”
****Thanks.****

”But I have bad news for you ! - you are low-life idol worshipper belonging to a brutal, disgusting and violent civilization which due to inadvertent error was not systematically cleansed from the earth. You have no right or standing to comment on higher forms of civilization and religion such as islam.”
**** You have given up on good Muslims and yes they are there. But we DO NEED TO DISABUSE THE MUSLIM POPULATION OF THEIR WAHAABI MULLAHS.****

#93,zahraj: “It appears that the ``intellectuals`` have decided to convene at this board to discuss irrelevant subject matter.”
****True. Thanks to the advice given to you by tahmed32, you also failed to take up issue, assuming you did have them, with my articles.****

#112, zahraj: “In order to ease the tension on this board, Chowk Admin should request Mr. Bhatnagar to consolidate his views in one paragraph and resubmit. This article should not sit on Chowk`s front page. It`s silly.”
**** I do not think that any tension was caused by my article. The respondents, including you did not addreee what the Pakistani President was addressing nor my evaluations thereof. You see you do have to read the article before addressing it.****Now do you see the need for the asterisks?

#136, neeraj1967: “It is a well meaning article and, there is no reason to get worked up on the presumtion that there is a hidden agenda behind or that it is espousing a holier than thou attiude at the cost of Islam,Muslims,Pakistanis.At the rate at which we are killing each other in the name of democracy,religion,state we dont need a meteoric kind of intervention to become extinct a la the dinosaurs.To me the propogation of religion based or nation-state based identity are the most sinister ideas which we have adopted in our fast forward desire to self-destruct.I want to ask a question supposing there were no countries or religion in the world would we cease to exsist as humans? i dont think so!. All of us need to read bill brysons a brief history of every-thing to understand and appreciate the fragility of our exsistence.”
****Thanks.****

#141,premwalla: “****It is far from certain. Until and unless there are three or four fair elections the jury is out on these claims.**** ``}
Couldn`t agree more with your comment above. Thanks for the timely article.
Good review with a point by point commentary.”
****Thanks.****
“Unfortunately, the real solution to Pakistan`s problems lies in the destruction of this self-serving class of selfish epicureans. Let`s let the Mullas finish off these internal enemies before they themselves meet the same fate. Then the country can rejoin its rightful place in undivided India.

Salim”
****Salim, I am delighted to find the clear enunciation of the objective. WE NEED TO THINK WHAT CAN BE DONE TO ACHIEVE THE OBJECTIVE IN A FAIR AND POSITIVE FASHION. THAT HAS TO BE DONE WITH UNDERSTANDING AND CONSENSUS OF ALL GROUPS AND RELIGIONS. WE SHOULD NOT OVEREMPHASIZE THE RELIGION PART.****

#145,rsribhar: “Interesting post by Mr. Premwalla that was filtered out by Chowk Staff. First thing that Pakis have to learn is to give up selective censorship - that is why they and their institutions have no credibility.”
****What censorship are you talking about? I find your version and the original versions to be the same.****

Re: # 182

Dear Inquirer: This was a hilarious post (the part addressed to me). It seems that you really like ``asterisks``. Sorry for my insensitivity :) I did not say anywhere that I disagreed with your stance. I did say that it is difficult to read and respond appropriately. I even gave you the due respect by asking you to resubmit your effort - with a little bit of reorganization(ok, I forgot to be succinct). I guess it is a matter of personal preference and taste. I have quite a few points on the subject under discussion but I will not share them till I find an appropriate write-up on the front page.

With due respect, despite your genuine effort to raise awareness and concern on an important and sensitive matter impacting the rest of the world, it is very difficult to respond to your article in its current form.

On a less serious note: I hope I at least addressed your post in a polite and appropriate manner :)

I look forward to another contribution by you on Chowk where I can share my perspectives without complaining about the format.

Regards.

Re: # 189, ZahraJ: Thanks for stating that you had problems only with the format of my presentation. I hope you agreed with the substance of what Musharraf had to say and my evaluations thereof.
As for responding to the presentation, I would refer you to my explanation of the format and the reason thereof to #180. You see, I believe it is harder (= more work) to respond/assess response to the normal essay format of an article because, then, it is more likely to talk cross purposes. This is particularly so for an evaluative article like mine. In the format I selected Musharraf is making a point and I am succinctly evaluating it. Now you as a reader on any issue can either agree/disagree with Musharraf or me or both. When I would assess your comment I would have to see which of the six possible positions is taken by you.
As for the asterisks, don`t you they are the prettiest symbols on the keyboard to separate individual ideas?!

Re: # 191

Inquirer:

[As for the asterisks, don`t you think they are the prettiest symbols on the keyboard to separate individual ideas?!]

**I concur with your sentiments :)**

*** I can see beauty and spontaneity emitting from right and left. ***

Re: # 202, ZaharaJ ji:
Thanks for looking at the asterisks the same way as I do!

I am sorry, I was away from my computer fo a few days. Therefore, I have not been able to respond to your replies. Tomorrow I will try to provide my thoughts on your response/query.

Thanks Kaalchakra, I do not know in what connection the understanding of ``Mandal`` is being sought. But I can imagine in a certain context in which, your background of your father being a priest puts you in a much better position than me. Nevertheless, three of us will interact and try to maximize the gain in understanding from this opportunity for interaction.

Sorry, ZahraJ ji, I am unable to give a fuller response as I have not yet read the posts carefully enough.

Apparently, there are a large number of people at Chowk who are unable to grasp my style of discussing an issue starting with a documentable statement and then providing a crisp assessment of the situation, without rigmarole! According to my belief wordiness is self-defeating and worse than no discussion as it is sheer waste of time. A discussion should have a documented basis and clear position on issues but, of course all this should be cogent and not devoid of significance.

As for the subject at hand, it should be OBVIOUS to any clear headed person, example is ferozk #27, that Pakistani populations and most of the intellectuals are lost and unable to act in a coherent fashion for the benefit of Pakistan. Of course, this involves an enunciation of the vision of the ``benefit.`` Most of the Pakistanis, in a deluded fashion, equate the goal of Pakistan as acquisition of Kashmir on a communal basis. They should not forget the fate of the remaining Muslims in India if Kashmir is communalized as the deluded, assisted by the international powers, did for the formation of Pakistan. Furthermore, now the international community has changed and has little patience with Wahaabi Mullahs.

India may not have the likes of Gandhi and Nehru again to uphold the standards of fairness if India is made to pass through a trauma of division again. A very probable condition for the subcontinent will be an internecine civil war for at least fifty years, even if the cool heads can prevail to keep nuclear bombs from raining over it.

RE- #177 by yossarian

A very good point. The taboo associated with the word “bhangi” and other cleaning jobs in South Asia, especially in India with caste playing a big role, is the reason why no one wants to do it. And the ones doing the cleaning work - do it half-heartedly, with little pride because of the idiotic stigma attached to it. And the result is for all to see. The 1st thing a foreigner notices when he comes to India is - the total lack of public sanitation or cleanliness and for them India looks like one big, giant trash can.

Visit any Western countries or poor countries in South America or Asian countries like Thailand, Malaysia, etc. or even poor middle-eastern countries like Yemen or carribean countries inhabited by blacks like Jamaica, Bahamas, etc. and the cleanliness and public sanitation level is pretty high.

re:#161 by Khansaab
You are one of those who have given a bad name to Pakistanis. They are now simply called Pakis, a derogatory term that means ungrateful at best and barbarians at worst. Read the following article to see why Pakis are not trusted any more in UK:
http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=430508
I can`t blame u for your behaviou if you destroyed your brain cells rocking your head in front of that holy book written by a Beodouin many centuries ago.

I am on a visit to India that is finally coming to an end. I see an India that is comfortable with both ancient cultures and modernity. No doubt Bangalore was a disappointment because of its poor infrastructure, poor roads but i saw a silver lining. Women competing as equals with men. Smartly dressed women whiz past me on a mobike or a scooter. These belong to middle income families and are blazing a new trail. Many opportunities have been thrown up to the young generation of Indians due to BPO and IT boom and these people are making use of these opportunities while people like u sit in your madrassas plotting to blow up the world and dream of Islamic resurgence (whatever that means).
I would advise u to open up and see the world around u instead of being trapped in your own shell. You might find a new world around u if u do so, a world so different from the one u are living that u would have hard time believing what u see. Who knows your dying brain cells may even get rejuvenated?
Sridhar

re:#161 by Khansaab
You are one of those who have given a bad name to Pakistanis. They are now simply called Pakis, a derogatory term that means ungrateful at best and barbarians at worst. Read the following article to see why Pakis are not trusted any more in UK:
http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=430508
I can`t blame u for your behaviou if you destroyed your brain cells rocking your head in front of that holy book written by a Beodouin many centuries ago.

I am on a visit to India that is finally coming to an end. I see an India that is comfortable with both ancient cultures and modernity. No doubt Bangalore was a disappointment because of its poor infrastructure, poor roads but i saw a silver lining. Women competing as equals with men. Smartly dressed women whiz past me on a mobike or a scooter. These belong to middle income families and are blazing a new trail. Many opportunities have been thrown up to the young generation of Indians due to BPO and IT boom and these people are making use of these opportunities while people like u sit in your madrassas plotting to blow up the world and dream of Islamic resurgence (whatever that means).
I would advise u to open up and see the world around u instead of being trapped in your own shell. You might find a new world around u if u do so, a world so different from the one u are living that u would have hard time believing what u see. Who knows your dying brain cells may even get rejuvenated?
Sridhar

#161 by KhanChaprasi

[Your arguments are as infantile as a senile child’s whose nerve of farts has been pinched.]

And these imbeciles are allowed to post on Chowk!

It is always suspicious when people add a “saab” to the end of their names by themselves.


[Like you say that, you will cut off four of your own fingers and point them all at us!? How pathetic can you get? ]

O what an imbecile.

[Be that as you may, eat your lily livered heart out, for we shall continue to dominate
despite one or two setbacks here or there]

One or two setbacks….

Hahahahahaha….

Here or there…

Hahahahaha…..

Continue to surrender?

Hahahahaha…….


[as our forefathers did (if you have studied history?), for almost 1200 years when we ruled over you. I speak of people like Mahmud-i- Ghazni, Mohammad Ghori, Alaudin Khilji, Sher Shah Suri, Ahmad Shah Abdali and many more of the ilk. Such were the people who made people like you to “behoove!”. However when I said that we all must behoove, naturally I was only appealing to the sensible people from amongst all of us, not to trivial bigots like you.]

Another descendent of Timur the Lame! No less…..

:-)



[As for you, go on keep throwing your juvenile temper tantrums until you are blue in the face and hoarse in the throat for all the good or bad it would do us all here. It may only make your parents want to put some sense in you.]

“Make my parents”? Huh? What is THAT all about?

Re: # 175

ajeya, is the term ``...chaparasi`` you used to call attention of this guy supposed to be a insult? I saw kane use the word ``bhangi`` to in another thread to insult somebody else.

I would rather use the well accepted insults like ``mullah`` or ``jehadi`` :) If you use the word chaparasi and bhangi to insult somebody, it reeks of feudalism, which I am under the impression that is long dead in India. Please dont insult a profession that tries to make a honest living.

Just my 2-centimos.

Y