Will Pakistanis Listen and Act?

Death by a thousand cuts, eh?

cut this...

The focus has shifted on Pakiland and it`s ties to extremism because of *drum roll* the indigenous Kashmiri freedom fighters..

Pakistan still a recruiting ground for extremists: WSJ

By Khalid Hasan

WASHINGTON: According to “South Asia analysts and Western intelligence officials,” reports the Wall Street Journal, “Pakistan continues to be a principal recruiting ground and logistical centre for global terrorists,” despite three years of Pak-US military operations to root out Al Qaeda and Taliban members in the remote tribal areas along the Pakistan-Afghanistan border.

The report published on Friday notes that President Pervez Musharraf has banned many militant Islamic organisations and tightened regulations on seminaries that have provided recruits to Al Qaeda and the Taliban. It quotes from President Musharraf’s televised address on Thursday in which he issued a fresh ban against militant Islamic groups and their fund-raising activities. However, adds the report, “Gen Musharraf’s moves to date have had little effect. Among the reasons: Pakistan’s armed forces have been reluctant to crack down on militias that have helped Pakistan defend its claim on Kashmir … even though those militias also may be connected with terrorist elements. Also, Gen Musharraf’s government relies on support from political parties that are often sympathetic to the aspirations of Islamic militants. These militants hold influence within the Pakistani Army, making it hard for the President to implement a thorough crackdown.”

The report points out that some of Pakistan’s most active Islamist militias, Jaish Mohammed and Lashkar-e-Taiba, continue to operate openly in parts of Pakistan, even though Gen Musharraf banned their activities in 2002. US and British authorities are concerned that Lashkar is allying itself with Al Qaeda and recruiting members from the Pakistani diaspora. The report quotes Christine Fair of the US Institute of Peace as saying, “Since 9/11, there are only really two prominent places in the world where you can train for jihad: Iraq and Pakistan. If you’re a young Muslim male looking for training, Pakistan is where you’re likely to find the opportunity, particularly if you have family and ethnic ties there.”

The Wall Street Journal report quotes unnamed officials who claim that Gen Musharraf has put less emphasis on dismantling home-grown Pakistani militant groups, even though he banned many of them in 2002. “On one subject the government and the militants have traditionally been in full agreement: Kashmir… Western experts say that if Gen Musharraf is taking a soft line toward domestic militant groups because he wants their help in Kashmir or Afghanistan, it is a flawed strategy because the line between Al Qaeda and these groups has increasingly blurred.”

The report alleges that in Pakistan’s tribal areas of Balochistan and the Northwest Frontier Province, the Taliban still train and recruit without government interference.

I think in post cold war world the era of Goeblism has ended with it as well. The war that is on now has become immune to the propaganda. Positions have been hardened and the schism has widened. The analysts and propagandists can cry their throats hoarse but this war is now destined to only one of the two outcomes as the crow craoked in his last state of the union address `` There is a Third world war raging in iraq.......The terrorists (i.e we) know that the outcome will leave them emboldened or defeated. So we are waging a campaign of murder and destruction,`` he said.

The following is indeed a very negative portrayal of Pakistan and Pakistanis. Some concrete steps ought to be taken to nip the evil (fanatic elements).

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Battle Ground
Despite U.S. Effort,
Pakistan Remains
Key Terror Hub

Islamist Militias Still Operate
After Ban by Musharraf;
Some Havens for al Qaeda
A Spanish Cell Sends $18,000
By JAY SOLOMON in Washington, ZAHID HUSSAIN in Islamabad, Pakistan, and KEITH JOHNSON in Madrid
Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
July 22, 2005; Page A1

In March 2004, al Qaeda leaders gathered at a mud hut in Pakistan`s remote tribal regions for a summit meeting. Among those who attended, according to senior Pakistani intelligence officials, was a Libyan operative described as Osama bin Laden`s top operational planner. Another attendee, Abu Issa al Hindi, now faces terrorism-related charges in the U.S.

On the agenda that day were plans to carry out attacks in Britain, say Pakistani officials involved in the capture of al Qaeda members in recent months. British and Pakistani intelligence officials are now exploring whether there`s a link to the July 7 London bombings.

Yesterday, explosions shut down three London subway stations and blew out the windows of a double-decker bus. One casualty was reported. The bombs appeared to be weaker than those used two weeks earlier.


Al Qaeda`s possible role in the July 7 bombings and the latest attacks remains murky, but one thing is clear to South Asia analysts and Western intelligence officials: Pakistan continues to be a principal recruiting ground and logistical center for global terrorists. This is despite three years of military operations by the U.S. and Pakistan to root out al Qaeda and Taliban members in the remote tribal areas along the Pakistan-Afghanistan border.

Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf, a U.S. ally, has banned many militant Islamic organizations and tightened regulations on religious seminaries, or madrassas, that have provided recruits to al Qaeda and the Taliban. Yesterday, Gen. Musharraf, in a televised speech to the country, issued a fresh ban against militant Islamic groups and their fund-raising activities. He gave madrassas a December deadline to register with the government.

Gen. Musharraf`s moves to date have had little effect, say South Asian and Western officials. Among the reasons: Pakistan`s armed forces have been reluctant to crack down on militias that have helped Pakistan defend its claim on Kashmir, a territory it disputes with India, even though those militias also may be connected with terrorist elements. Also, Gen. Musharraf`s government relies on support from political parties that are often sympathetic to the aspirations of Islamic militants. These militants hold influence within the Pakistani army, making it hard for the president to implement a thorough crackdown.

Pakistan emerges as a common thread in recent terrorism investigations. Three of the four suspected London suicide bombers apparently traveled to Pakistan within the past year, where they are believed to have met militant groups and possibly trained with them, Pakistani officials say. Last September, Spanish police broke up a cell of Pakistani nationals in Barcelona who police say had sent at least $18,000 to al Qaeda operatives in Pakistan -- among them a man who is a chief suspect in the plot to kidnap and murder Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl.

Another al Qaeda operative, computer expert Naeem Noor Khan, was arrested in July 2004 in Lahore, Pakistan. He had with him photos and contact lists detailing a terrorism campaign targeted at London`s Heathrow Airport, the World Bank building in Washington and other places.

Some of Pakistan`s most active Islamist militias, Jaish-e-Mohammed and Lashkar-e-Taiba, continue to operate openly in parts of Pakistan, even though Gen. Musharraf banned their activities in 2002. U.S. and British authorities are concerned that Lashkar is allying itself with al Qaeda and recruiting members from the Pakistani diaspora.

``Since 9/11, there are only really two prominent places in the world where you can train for jihad: Iraq and Pakistan,`` says Christine Fair, a South Asia expert at the United States Institute of Peace, a nonpartisan federal think tank in Washington. ``If you`re a young Muslim male looking for training, Pakistan is where you`re likely to find the opportunity, particularly if you have family and ethnic ties there.``


In his speech yesterday, Gen. Musharraf expressed displeasure with the criticism of Pakistan following the July 7 London bombing. While three of the bombers` parents are of Pakistani descent, he said, the men were products of Britain, not Pakistan. ``We certainly have a problem here which we are trying to address very strongly. May I say England also has a problem that needs to be addressed,`` Gen. Musharraf said. Extremist groups ``operate with full impunity`` in Britain including ones that ``had the audacity to pass an edict against my life,`` said the Pakistani president, who has been the target of assassination attempts.

The arrest last year of Mr. Khan, the computer expert, was critical in helping authorities link al Qaeda`s senior commanders in Pakistan to terrorist cells in Europe and the U.S. Mr. Khan, then 28, is the son of a Pakistan International Airlines pilot and traveled often to Europe and the Middle East when he was young.

According to multiple officials involved in the investigation, Pakistani agents traced Mr. Khan`s emails and found he was communicating both with suspected al Qaeda operatives in the U.K. and with commanders in the South Waziristan district of Pakistan`s tribal areas. In interrogations, Mr. Khan said he sent encrypted messages of terrorist plots, sometimes by couriers on mules, to operations commanders based in caves, according to these officials.

U.S. and British authorities ultimately were forced to cut short a surveillance operation on the British cell after concerns mounted that an attack could be imminent. Investigators in Pakistan had found specific ``targeting sites`` on Mr. Khan`s computer, including pictures of London`s Heathrow Airport and British mass transit systems. In London, British authorities, using leads from Mr. Kahn`s arrest, found photos on suspects` computers of the World Bank headquarters in Washington and the Prudential Corporate Plaza building in Newark, N.J.

That caused the U.S. Department of Homeland Security to raise its terror alert to orange in August 2004. While some experts at the time played down the likelihood that these U.S. buildings could be targets, it remains unclear what the users of these computers were planning.

Among those arrested in sweeps inside Pakistan and Britain following Mr. Khan`s arrest were Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani, a Tanzanian al Qaeda member indicted by the U.S. for the bombings of two U.S. embassies in Africa in 1998. The most prized catch for the U.S. was Mr. Hindi, the man reported to have been an attendee at the March 2004 summit meeting. He is believed to have been a senior al Qaeda operative in Europe and is linked to alleged 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Mr. Hindi was indicted by the U.S. in April on charges of conspiring to use weapons of mass destruction and conspiring to destroy buildings.

The young computer expert, Mr. Khan, was also connected to the cell of Pakistani nationals in Barcelona. He was one of the recipients of the money the Spanish cell sent to Pakistan. In April of this year a Spanish investigating magistrate described the 11-man cell in a writ seeking to keep the men imprisoned until trial. The writ says the cell provided funding and a possible escape plan to one of the alleged masterminds of the March 11, 2004, bombings in Madrid, Rabei Osman Said Ahmed, a k a Mohamed the Egyptian, who is now facing trial in Italy over separate terrorism charges. Another member of the cell was allegedly in charge of establishing sleeper cells in Scandinavia.

To raise funds for a ``global jihad,`` the cell got involved in drug trafficking, credit-card fraud and extortion, the writ says. Police found 141 grams of heroin, precision scales and machines used in making fake credit cards in one of the houses used as a meeting place by cell members, in addition to the equivalent of $22,000 in cash.

European law-enforcement agencies are taking a harder look at Pakistani militant groups that traditionally were thought to have at most loose ties to al Qaeda. One of these groups is Lashkar-e-Taiba, or ``Army of the Pure,`` an Islamist militia that has long trained Pakistani recruits for fighting in Kashmir. It also has a long relationship with the Pakistani military and intelligence services.

In March of this year, British police arrested Palvinder Singh, a 29-year-old British national of Pakistani descent, in Coventry for alleged links to Lashkar. The group is outlawed in Britain. Mr. Singh and two others were charged with conspiracy to fund terrorism and conspiracy to acquire equipment for terrorism. Law-enforcement officials say the arrests are part of a major, previously undisclosed operation by Scotland Yard to roll up Lashkar`s British cells.

Some officials say Gen. Musharraf has put less emphasis on dismantling home-grown Pakistani militant groups, even though he banned many of them in 2002. On one subject the government and the militants have traditionally been in full agreement: Kashmir, control of which is split between India and Pakistan. Pakistani government propaganda distributed at some overseas embassies depicts the Indian-controlled part of Kashmir as a horror zone in which Indian-sponsored terrorists rape and kill Muslims.

Western experts say that if Gen. Musharraf is taking a soft line toward domestic militant groups because he wants their help in Kashmir or Afghanistan, it is a flawed strategy because the line between al Qaeda and these groups has increasingly blurred.

Pakistan ``cooperated rigorously in going after al Qaeda, but went very slow in going after Taliban and groups operating inside Kashmir,`` says Ashley Tellis, who was senior director for Southwest Asia at the National Security Council during President Bush`s first term and now is a senior associate at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in Washington. ``This works in theory but not in practice.``

A visit to an Islamic center just outside Lahore, called Marzak-Dawa-al-Rasad, or MDI, is indicative of how Pakistan`s militant culture continues to thrive. MDI is the parent organization of Lashkar-e-Taiba, and its founder, Hafiz Mohammed Saeed, was previously the militia`s chief before it was banned in 2002. Today, Mr. Saeed and his religious colleagues actively preach the necessity for jihad.

Mr. Saeed, a 60-year-old former university professor, proudly recounts attacks his army led on India as recently as 2001. The killing of ``infidels`` and the destruction of the forces of ``evil and disbelief`` is the obligation of every pious Muslim, says Mr. Saeed. He calls Mr. bin Laden ``a man of extraordinary qualities,`` but Lashkar leaders have denied that the group is part of the al Qaeda network.

The compound houses an Islamic university, a farm, a clothing factory and a carpentry workshop. The university promotes the austere Wahabi version of Islam and offers students boot-camp-like physical training, according to university officials.

Meanwhile, Lashkar has changed its name to Jammat-ul-Dawa, or Islamic ``Preaching Core,`` and solicits new recruits for the Kashmir conflict in Lahore and other cities. The group continues to publish magazines and operate a Web site. Currently there is an official cease-fire in Kashmir as the Indian and Pakistani governments conducts peace talks, but Indian officials claim that recent attacks in Kashmir have been supported by militant groups inside Pakistan.

In Pakistan`s tribal areas of Baluchistan and the Northwest Frontier Province, the Taliban still train and recruit without government interference. In the Baluch cities of Quetta and Chaman, the Taliban`s presence is particularly strong, and U.S. and Afghan military commanders complain that Pakistan is providing sanctuary and aid to the militias they`re fighting. Pashtunabad, a congested slum district in Quetta, is a hotbed of former Taliban activists. Several exiled former Taliban leaders are believed to have taken refuge there.

The main madrassa in the neighborhood is run by Maulana Noor Mohammed, a member of Pakistan`s national assembly, who belongs to an alliance of conservative Islamic parties allied with Gen. Musharraf`s government. Mr. Mohammed believes the Taliban`s version of political Islam will flourish again someday across South Asia. ``The Taliban will ultimately triumph,`` he said in an interview at the madrassa, the majority of whose students are Afghan refugees.

Efforts by Gen. Musharraf`s government to regulate the more than 10,000 madrassas in Pakistan have stalled in part because they continue to get support from Pakistanis overseas and foreign Islamic charities. A report by the Brussels-based International Crisis Group says that Pakistan`s madrassas and mosques receive $1.1 billion dollars in domestic donations every year, but the number is believed to be significantly higher when foreign contributions are included.

Since the July 7 London bombings, Pakistani security forces have rounded up nearly 300 suspected militants in raids on homes and madrassas. The government has pledged again to weed out the militancy taught in the madrassas. Gen. Musharraf, in his speech yesterday, said he would act against newspapers that spread hatred and told the nation it was at a crossroads in choosing between progressive or ``retrogressive`` Islam.

So Musharraf`s speech from Thursday is taken and comments like `` agreed`` , `` good suggestion``..., `` how true ``, `` can you believe that ?? `` oh go suck an egg`` , are added and an article for front page is ready ....

I did not browse through my today`s Journal until late in the evening and it was disturbing read. The 1st page had Musharraf`s sketch in a commando style cap with an unendingly long article. The most disturbing element was how the columnist drew parallels between Iraq and Pakistan.

Urstruly #2

`` I think in post cold war world the era of Goeblism has ended with it as well. The war that is on now has become immune to the propaganda. Positions have been hardened and the schism has widened. The analysts and propagandists can cry their throats hoarse but this war is now destined to only one of the two outcomes as the crow craoked in his last state of the union address `` There is a Third world war raging in iraq.......The terrorists (i.e we) know that the outcome will leave them emboldened or defeated. So we are waging a campaign of murder and destruction,`` he said. ``

Let me make this simple for you. If you go around bombing New York, London, Madrid etc. those countries happen to be extremely powerful. They also have an alliance called NATO. They might turn around and wipe some countries off the face of the earth. May be you should learn to behave yourself :-)

Where does `chowk` find these people who write such articles??....

Re: # 7

Did the ``author`` actually ``write`` something in this masterpiece?

Re: # 8

He `typed` somethin`.........

A very good commentary. Here is another commentary appeared in another site. Follow the weblink for an interesting perspectives.

http://www.vinnomot.com/alamgir/TerrorMusharraf.htm

Thanks.

The guy just panned out what steps Pakistan has taken and will take to erradicate terrorism, what more do you want ??? Its not something anyone can acheive overnight (and by that we are not inviting anyone to contest on how soon they can acheive the task on our soil) or something that can be acheived by one country on its own or for that matter one religion on its own. In this world we need to coexist with not pointing fingers at each other.

It would be stupid to say Pakistgan should kill / arresrt all terrorists or stop beleiving in quran or that islam is a religion of voilence cause all of these have been proven otherwise a million times already yet people still sight them as reasons.

The main reason a terrorist is born is the feeling of depreviation of their rights which for muslims urfortunately is happening all over the world exmples incase you ae wondering would be:
Palastine (A country broken and distorted in decades of voilence so they agree to giving all of their homeland to someone else, although after killing alot of people the occupying forces are now kind enought to let them live on cordoned blocks of their own land),

Bosnia (remember the mass graves, the slashed kids and raped girls ??? now where did muslims really do tht sort of massacres being such voilent ppl as we are depicted to be),

Afghanistan (all the bombs but no dead Bin Ladin, killing 10s of thousands of people as compared to those killed in the unfortunate 9/11 makes sense to only the insane logically),

Iraq (Oh the start of a democracy by occupying a free land even if ruled by a dictator funded by the old pal US of A until he went cuckoo nuts too)

and how can one forget after the drum roll mention the beautiful and blood bathed Kashmir( Yes the indo - pak own breeding ground for fanatics).

Now do you see why alot of muslims would be against Jews, christians and yes the poor hindus.

Yes we have a majority of moderates who wouldn`t go sporting a bomb dress killing innocent lives but like everyother socity we have our stock of nuts and they would because some people give them really good valid reasons.

Now that you know why terrorists are born coming up with a solution is simple, (incase you didn`t fugure it out earlier) live and let live. How does the christian or lets be on a broder scale western community feel when they have bombs exploding in their backyards. Has there been retaliatry attacks on muslims and mosques in UK after the london bombs and the unforgettable 9/11? Yes (please read the news reports if u must question this) so y do u think muslims would act any different?

Don`t get me wrong i am NOT justifying terrorism here its wrong carried out by anyone muslim or non muslim and Paki or non Paki, but please don`t drill these allegations on a religion, country or ethnicity as each of your countries have a fair share of wackos who you try to control and often fail, might i remind you of the Babri Mosque incident OR the IRA bombings OR the school shootings in US. It doesn`t make you a lesser country or religious community in our eyes and we expect to be treated likewise.

Re: # 11
Mr Cadbury,

You are yet one of the millions of katlu phelwans of ``moderate enlightenment`` that sound like TYPICAL bleeding heart liberals.

You are quick to denounce the killings of innocent lives like every ``good`` muslim.

In the next breath you are quick to...er...``empathise`` with their actions because of ``atrocities`` in Bosnia, Chechnya, Palestine & Kashmir.

That reminds me of a story:

2 bleeding heart liberals were walking down a street. On the horizon, they saw 2 men brutally beating and mugging a man. They ran to the scene & came upon the victim, lying on the ground, bleeding profusely, gasping at his last breath.

They looked at the dying victim, shook their head sadly & said ``its such a tragedy...we must find those 2 muggers who killed this man

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they need our help``....

Now that the rest of the kufr world has seen the character of the Land of the Pure; they are beginning to admit....
Gee, these Hindians were right about these katlu pigs of Pakistan; after all..

There is no point in liberal, enlightened people like you & Zahra J wring your hands & say:
``Oh Allah; we should do something about the negative image of Pakistan``.

Every Pakistani, living at home & abroad is VICARIOUSLY responsible for the tragic state of affairs that exist in your country today. Dont cry that you are strip searched & profiled the minute you step out of Pakistan & go to any international airport (even in other Islamic countries).

--Do people like you protest in front of every mosque where a kufr- hating mullah preaches jihad

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NO!!!

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Do you pick up the phone & call the Dept of Homeland security & tell them that there are guys on Chowk who fit a typical profile of an Al-Qeeda sympathiser...that they live in the West & openly espouse hatred against the West; sneer at a culture that gives them food, water & shelter?

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NO!!!!

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I could go on & on.
The bitter truth iss that yours are sins of ``Omission``; not ``Commission``.
A sin is a sin..
Does the Koran teach you different?!

Shankar

Someone who empathises, sympathizes, and `understands` suicide murders is far more dangerous than the useless sod that actually engages in suicide murders of innocent people.

Re: # 12
Don`t confuse understanding of reasons for becoming a terrorist with empathy for the bombers and NO Koran does not teach us to empathize with such elements either.

We do get profiled like alot of other nationalities so what ? We are people who stand straight in the eye of authority and they have the right to ensure they can protect their land from fanatics but then being searched is better then bowing in front of others like you guys do and strip search tht might just happen to indies not us sweety.

Yes we do stop people when they go against the teachings of Koran and give wrong preceptions and understanding of the most forgiving religion a very good example is the condemnation by Musharraf in the article above just incase you missed it, banning Lashkar - i - Taiba and arrest of the computer geek Mr. Khan to name a few which bought in vital intelligence on future terrorist targets.

Yes, homeland security department is not the place we would call if we want to report a possible bomber as we have our own departments for that incase you have missed Pakistan has given alot of intelligence about possible bombing attacks in US and UK through various means.

Like you i can go on and on but then did u really read what i wrote i guess not or maybe u didn`t let it sink in hiding behind your shell of preceptions about muslims created by your Saffron Brigade.

And no we don`t just pray to Allah to stop the suicide bombers and the Hindis like yourself from going about your daily business of defaming our religion and country but we do catch them (like we did to several Al Qaida operatives in the recent past), try to give you a better understanding of our thoughts and beliefs while keeping our language under control however misbehaving yours is (like i just did).

Kaalchakra, Yes please do consider me dangerous as just like you when someone tries to tarnish my religion or countries image i will do anything in my power to first calm him down and if not then yes crushing an argument is something we learned from you in 1948. Nobody empathizes, sympathizes with killers but you have to understand the reason y anyone would go so ballistic to stop it from happening again.

MS. Cadbury

#2
From WSJ article:
//...International Crisis Group says that Pakistan`s madrassas and mosques receive $1.1 billion dollars in domestic donations every year, but the number is believed to be significantly higher when foreign contributions are included. ..//

Mullhas get $1.1B dollars per year? wow? that too not counting the saudi contributions.

that`s much more than the FDI pakistan gets per year.

cadbury

Every murderer has a reason. Not all reasons are reasonable.

Re: # 6

Yes, it has already started to happen, which means that propaganda is a wasted effort from now on.

#14 by Cadbury on July 23, 2005 6:52am PT

sure sure..you`re completely voluntarily on-board the war on Islamic terrorism...we believe you..I`ll forward your post to judge chertoff..he can now withdraw the lookout notice for pakis entering US airports..

you can go back to wearing t-shirts with paki flags now..all is well...

Re: # 14 cad
//....Yes we do stop people when they go against the teachings of Koran...//

How? By funnelling $1.1Bn into hands of mullahs and lashkars?

Re: # 18

Is that the best u can do ? no reasons no justifications just hiding behind sarcasm

Re: # 19
Not All Mullas are fanatics and not all madrasas are terrorist camps just like not all swami`s went to bring down the Babri mosque and not all Hindus (unlike u) beleive in ridiculing other religions

Cadbury: Any views on this??
83 killed in bomb blasts in Egypt

At least 83 people were killed and 200 wounded when three blasts -- believed to be two suicide car bombs and a third explosive device -- went off in Sharm el-Sheikh early Saturday.

I have skimmed through this ``convoluted`` write-up by Sushil Bhatnagar. You could tell the gist by the topic and there was no need for all the ****. Probably, Sushil needed more time to think and compose his responses. This article is not only difficult to read but also horrible in its formatting.

ZahraJ:

Tahmed`s First Law of Chowkonomics: The number of posts is in direct proportion to the political content of the article.

So, I predict a good turnout here.

Tahmed` Second Law of Chowkonomics: The number of posts is orthogonal to the silliness of the article.

So, dont read the article. Read the posts.

Tahmed`s Third Law of Chowkonomics: To be announced perhaps, perhaps not.

#20 by Cadbury on July 23, 2005 8:00am PT


no reasons no justifications


That`s the law in Pakiworld, the magical mystical kingdom of paki self-delusion..the world where most pakis live...

no reasoning allowed in Pakiworld..only things that meet the paki concept of reality...

when in pakiworld, think as pakis do

arjun: I guess nowadays every day brings fresh new of joy for you. What with ``muslims`` killing innocent people, other ``muslims`` rushing to explain these killings and whine about their newly found ``inalienable rights`` in the west (rights that they would never dream of giving anyone if they were in charge).

What more could a paki-obsessed nut like you ask for??

This is open to discussion, but one reason, why there is a still a willingness to tolerate militant Islamic groups in Pakistan is the unresolved nature of the Kashmir problem.

The best way to end the militancy would be to declare the LoC as an international border. Once that happens, Pakistani army, which supports these groups will end its support, because till LoC is made into an international border, Pakistani army will have the idea of using these groups in Kashmir. Secondly, the transformation of the LoC into an international border will deny these groups the basic claim of fighting for Kashmiris.

This is, why I support making the LoC into a fixed border.

Ciao

#26 by tahmed32 on July 23, 2005 8:51am PT


arjun: I guess nowadays every day brings fresh new of joy for you.


Brit-paki jihadis, trained by the indigenous kashmiri freedom fighters of the LeT and the JeM, blow up a bunch of their fellow citizens..same brit-pakis who sent millions of pounds for the indigenous kashmiri freedom fighters.. heat of the spotlight on Pakistan`s training camps for the indigenous kashmiri freedom fighters..paki visa moderation exposed(visa moderation = when applying for a visa, pretending to never have supported the jihadis)

joy at seeing brits killed? Nope... joy at pakis squirming under the spotlight: HECK YES....

There is only one way to destroy Islamic terrorism - hit and destroy what muslims value most i.e Islam. The west should organize simultaneous nuclear attacks on Mecca and Medina along with conventional bombing of the Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem. Just finish off these 3 leading sites of Islam. The muslims will realize how impotent their religion is. If they try to retaliate, carry out repeated nuclear attacks against Mecca and Medina. That is the only way to kill this madness in this world called Islam.

arjun #28 you write ``joy at seeing brits killed? Nope... joy at pakis squirming under the spotlight: HECK YES....``

Bad news for you. There are no pakis squirming under any spotlight on this board or anywhere else. Time to get a reality check. Take two aspirin and call for an appointment on Monday to receive full treatment for a reality check to Indians who wet their pants with delight every time they think the west is going to become primitive like India (where any excuse is enough to start mob attacks on minorities).

ranjit: You too call my office for an appointment for a head check (special ``bania discount`` for you and arjun). My ``Snake Oil for Delusional Indians`` is selling like hot papars!!

Re: # 27 Yes, LoC as an international border is a good idea. This border should be porous and should not need visa.

ranjit, it`s wrong to blame just the Muslims for terrorism.

A terrorist ideology is at war with the world. This terrorist ideology seems completely `reasonable,` once you make the mistake of agreeing with its basic, extremely slippery, premises.

Surely, many Muslims have blindly swallowed this terrorist ideology. But so have many misinformed, misguided, intellectually lazy, and cowardly non Muslims.

Re:southasian #32
``Re: # 27 Yes, LoC as an international border is a good idea. This border should be porous and should not need visa.``

Absolutely not!! The LOC must be an international border. But the entire international border with Pakistan must be like a firewall, an iron curtain that no one can cross. I would prefer cuting off all kinds of visas between the two countries and have minimal diplomatic links.

We Indians must not have any links with Pakistan. Also, we must shield our muslims in India from the toxic effects of Pakistan. All these terrorists in Britain and Europe got their training in Pakistan. We must not let that happen with Indian muslims otherwise India will get ruined.

Re:kaalchakra#33
``ranjit, it`s wrong to blame just the Muslims for terrorism.``

With all due respects, how long are we going to delude ourselves? Just look at the events in the past four weeks -
1. Suicide attack on Ayodhya
2. Suicide attack #1 in London
3. Suicide attack in Kashmir near school
4. Suicide attack of a daily basis in Iraq where dozens of kids were killed
5. Suicide attack in Turkey`s tourist area
6. Suicide attack #2 in London
7. Suicide attack in Egypt killing 85 people

I am sure I am missing some events here. In all these incidinents there is one underlying theme - Islam against Kaffirs. Yes it is couched in euphemisims, freedom struggles, other BS. But that is the bottom line. It is a religious war between Islam and Rest of the world. The sooner we realize it and identify the enemy, the better it is.

If Europe and US deports all muslims out of their countries, in one fell swoop, the entire problem will be solved. We Indians must immediately take an extreme hardline stance in Kashmir which is well overdue - Warn Pakistan to immediately stop all infiltration and give up all claims in Kashmir, or we destory the Indus water treaty, cut off all water supply to Pakistan and throw nuclear toxins into their existing water flow. It is simple. Point a gun at Pakistan`s head and tell them to come to their senses or get destroyed. If they go for the nuclear option, we retaliate and obliterate them.

urstruly:

any response to anti-muslim rants by ranjit?? or, are you just another fake who talks big about your war with the west only because you know you are protected by western laws of free speech. Do you have the guts to even challenge open hate-mail directed to muslims on chowk by those who REALLY hate muslims (like ranjit)??

Re:tahmed32#36

Why are you asking someone else to respond to me? If you want to respond, do so. Lets get rid of all this political correctness and talk straight.

Your country, Pakistan has become the epicenter of international terror. That terror is directed primarily against my country India, my people and my places of worhip. It is not words or rhetoric but actual physical attacks that happen every day in Kashmir or elsewhere. People from your territory get ideologically brainwashed, receive training, come over illegally to my country and create havoc. Your establishment plays a double game of paying lip service and ``show-sha`` against terrorism, while at the same time sending in killers who take innocent life simply because they belong to another faith. Your terror infrastructure has been linked directly with the 9/11 attacks as well as 7/7 and pretty much every other incident.

It is time for India and other non-muslims countries to tell Pakistan to fix it once and for all, or face real retribution. We have had it with your ambivalent attitude and foreign policy adventures. You want religious war, you will get it. If you do not want it, then clean up your house. That means immediate dismantling of all terror infrastructure, immediate abandonment of Kashmir or any other ``issue``. After that, you can do whatever you want in your country, no one gives a damn.

Re: # 21
//....Not All Mullas are fanatics and not all madrasas are terrorist camps just like not all swami`s went to bring down the Babri mosque and not all Hindus (unlike u) beleive in ridiculing other religions...//

All swamis may not have physically gone to bring down Babri - but they all supported that act of barbarism - because, these swamis are human parasites and completely useless life-forms on the face of the earth - and are treated as such ........ And most hindus do ``ridicule`` other religions[they call it ``critical analysis``], just like they ridicule their own.....

But that`s not the point. But the real question is - how much percent of $1.1Bn went to good mullah and how much went to the fanatic mullah? How much was spent for jihad in Kashmir and afganistan and how much was spent on actual education [rot-learning quoran is not education - that`s actually anti-education, for lack of a better term]? ......

We can blame hindus for their ``lack of respect`` for other religions [we blame hindus and jews for most other things under the sun anyway] - but that still doesn`t change the fact that $1.1 Bn per year is spent on jihad., does it?

#29 by ranjit

“There is only one way to destroy Islamic terrorism - hit and destroy what muslims value most i.e Islam. The west should organize simultaneous nuclear attacks on Mecca and Medina along with conventional bombing of the Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem. Just finish off these 3 leading sites of Islam. The muslims will realize how impotent their religion is. If they try to retaliate, carry out repeated nuclear attacks against Mecca and Medina. That is the only way to kill this madness in this world called Islam.”

Ranjit a typical hindu…hehehehe wants muslims dead …good, good, good…he hates Muslims like all hindus… hehehehe..

Wants goras to nuke Muslims lands….wants gora kids to die for his hatred and fight….hindu coward… hehehehe… hindu never won a war in thousands of years of Indian history… he wants gora boys to go and win the war for hindus hatred…..hehehehehe

Hindu have nukes…hehehehe…why not hindu go after the Muslim lands….drop Indian bombs on Pakistan….heheheheh…. Pakistan has bombs too ….hehehehe… scares the sh1t out of hindu…heheheh…

Pakis have nukes…..hehehehe if not, hindus would have dropped the bomb on Pak already…..hehehehe… big talk, sh1t in pants….hehehehe….that is hindu for you ….heheheheh…..

Re: # 36 tahmed
//...urstruly: any response to anti-muslim rants by ranjit?? ...///

So now the resident Closet-Mullah is teaming up with the resident Real Mullah to fight the kufr hinuds...... Mullahs of all stripes are now joining their forces together.

Yep - it`s time. Idolator hinuds have to defeated - quoran says so.

Sushilji,

It is nice of you to write such an appropriate and timely article.

But I have bad news for you ! - you are low-life idol worshipper belonging to a brutal, disgusting and violent civilization which due to inadvertent error was not systematically cleansed from the earth. You have no right or standing to comment on higher forms of civilization and religion such as islam.

Islamic civilization is special and different. It invented democracy in 600AD (Shri Tahmed32 will give you all the details) and also completely liberated women by placing them in large black sacks. Also, no terrorist is a muslim because islam means peace.

How does it matter if many mosques teaches hatred towards ``others`` (christians/jews/hindus)? It is the democratic right of everyone, to hate others. Also, muslim suffering is more important than anyone elses suffering, especially hindus and other low-life of that type.

PLease understand these new realities. Once you have absorbed them you will stop writing these naive articles and instead spend your energies on preparing yourself for the long battles ahead.

dalit hehehe remember 1971 hehehe pakistan broken into two eqaul parts by Indian Army hehehe hindus just big talk hehehe...

Re: # 38
the money is spent on ISLAMIC EDUCATION incase u didn`t get it and JIHAD is not the main subject in it. U might not want ppl to read and learn Bhagwat Geeta but we like our people to learn and read it as much as they can for reasons your faith also appreciates

ranjit

Terrorism has the reach it does today because dumb and gutless non Muslims have fed it, and continues to offer to it, both moral support and social respectability. Clearly, the terrorist ideology does not mentally incapacitate just many Muslims.

The problem of terrorism is essentially the problem of a specific mindset, a mindset that is demonstrably shared by anybody who sympathetically understands terrorism and identifies with terrorists.

As to Islam, ultimately the Muslim world will decide by its actions what to make of it.

And look at these dim-wit Brits - they f***ing shot the wrong man, in full public view .... I mean, Jeez - how stupid can you get? First you allow islamic vermin to infest your country and then you just shoot wrong people!!!

And we all know what`s goint to happen now. More ``justification`` for jihad - not that there isn`t enough already. Brits are doomed.

#42 by Kane
Heheheh no war in 71…talk about Alex boy…hehehe...talk about the Ghauri boy…. And other boys….talk about the Chinese boys….heheheh...all invaders beat the sh1t out of hindu….hehehehe.

Muslim holy place right next to Delhi….Deoband…hehehehe nuke that first…that is the Kaaba of all terrorist…hehehe…can’t even go near there…hehehehe
Nuke Old delhi first….more muslims there….hehehehe hindu cowards….want gora to fight for them heheheheh…..

Re: #46 by ChristianDalit

According to the National Geographic channel, ``Virgin`` Mary had an extramarital affair with a young Roman soldier when her MUCH older husband was away.

Hehehehehe

``Immaculate birth`` my a$$.

Hehehehehe

:-)

#47
hehehehehe
Brahma is found guilty of cohabiting with his own daughter, Saraswati.

heheheheh

The sexual life of Krishna, an incarnation of Vishnu, is well-known for its indecency. He had illicit relations with Radha, wife of his maternal uncle. hehehehe

Incest, pedophile, child molesters all there. Heheheheh Hindu liar….heheheh

Ajeya

Dalit is an old friend. He is not a Christian.

---

Dalit

You have got us right. Talking of bombing religious places is so much nonsense. I just learnt that there is an Al-Jamia Al-Salafia Madrassa in, of all places, Varanasi!

And students of this temple of learning go to, again, of all places, JNU.

On the other hand, one can ask: where will they go if not to JNU?

Re: #48 by VictimofPedophilePriest

Still have hots for the priest?

Hehehehehe

Re: #49 by Kaalchakra

Thanks for telling me that.

So is he a Muslim?

Talveen Singh went to Deobund….heheheheh…all mullah put hands under their long shirts....hehehehe.... way down….hehehehe…Talveen Singh ran….hehehehehe…..

Ajeya

I don`t think any religion will like to claim our friend. He is just our dear Dalitji.

ranjit #37 I already responded to you - I said you were a nut.

Re: # 43 cad
//....the money is spent on ISLAMIC EDUCATION incase u didn`t get it and JIHAD is not the main subject in it...//

Oh yes - the ``Islamic Education`` ...... Actually I do get it - now that you have explained..... I mean - A billion dollar a year on islamic education and the result shows for itself, doesn`t it? Islamic Education has sure produced the desired results. After all, the most prolific export from pakistan is Islamic Terrorism.

+++

//....U might not want ppl to read and learn Bhagwat Geeta...//

Well - I did read a couple pages from that book. It`s boring and doesn`t say anything that I don`t know already..... Anycase - I am sure as hell not going support spending a bn $ on that - particularly if that`s going to produce a million ``swamis`` running around naked with thrishul up their a$$es and breaking derelict ancient structures.

I mean - just look at what a billions dollar of ``islamic education`` has done to you pakis? A million jihadis running amok. ... So no maam, no reading and learning Bhagwat Geeta for us.

ranjit #37 I read the rest of your post.

you wrote ``Your establishment plays a double game of paying lip service and ``show-sha`` against terrorism, while at the same time sending in killers who take innocent life simply because they belong to another faith. ``

Coming from an Indian (where minorities are routinely killed, where known thugs like Modi are national leaders - who was denied a visa to the US a few months ago on account of being a hindu terrorist), this bs rings hollow. You of course dont know that - and that doesnt matter. The rest of the world knows that.

Re: #53 by Kaalchakra

Well Dalit or not, due to some reason this guy has an extreme inferiority complex. He`s obviously not from a good background. Maybe from an extremely poor and uneducated muslim family that used to be an uneducated dalit family that was converted by force. It seems rape and violence might have been involved.

Actually it is fairly certain that his family was converted against their will. Because it seems that he needs Hindu attention. Kind of like a lost soul crying in the wilderness.

Hopefully his children will not have the same ghosts haunting them.

ajeya

Ultimately, dalitji - whatever his religion is - would not exist but for our own shortcomings. Realizing that, one can deal with him as a human being, not as a caricature that he makes of himself.

We know we have a long way to go. Any incentive dalitji can provide us to keep moving should be welcome.

Tahmed : ``Coming from an Indian (where minorities are routinely killed, where known thugs like Modi are national leaders - who was denied a visa to the US a few months ago on account of being a hindu terrorist), this bs rings hollow. You of course dont know that - and that doesnt matter. The rest of the world knows that.``

Obviously you are an idiot. `Rest of the world` , atleast the civilised world is talking about Islamic terrorism , muslim suicide bombers , terrorist threat from Pakistan.

`Rest of the world` is yet to talk of Modi , hindu fundamentlists in the same breath.Somehow Modi and hindus do not merit the same attention from the `rest of the world` as the adherents of the `religion of peace` (RoP). Wonder why ...

Also , in interest of accuracy , Modi was never called or considered a `hindu terrosist` by the US administration. And to say `minorities are routinely killed in India` is just Tahmed32`s personal opinion.It is also Tahmed32`s personal opinion that he is the biological father of his wife`s children...

Dalit..you ignorant shithead....dont you know what happened in 1971 ? Indian Army defeated Pakistani forces badly and broke Pakistan into 2 equal parts. Pakistan Army surrendered to the Indians. 100,000 Pakistanis were taken as prisoners of war. East Pakistan broke away and Bangladesh was born. Heehehehe....

Anti-muslim sentiment rising in Britain

#58 by kaalchakra


[Ultimately, dalitji - whatever his religion is - would not exist but for our own shortcomings. Realizing that, one can deal with him as a human being, not as a caricature that he makes of himself.

We know we have a long way to go. Any incentive dalitji can provide us to keep moving should be welcome.]



Actually, much is said about ``our`` shortcomings.

Everyone is extremely concerned about the shortcomings of the Hindu. Take any lefty/pseudo-secularist newspaper in India, take the BBC, take most newspapers around the world, Hindus are roundly condemned of everything under the sun.

While the truth is that, of all the world communities, we have been the MOST decent folks. We have been living in India, and it is everybody else under the sun that has attacked us, enslaved us, forced this or that onto us, when they should have just LEFT US ALONE.

As far as religious philosophy goes, I don`t think we are talking about that here.

As far as social dogmas, injustices etc. goes, EVERY society under the sun has its share of them. Very frequently, the ``dalit`` who converts to Christianity to join a egalitarian society suddenly finds that he is not that welcome in many white churches. The low-caste hindu who converts to Islam finds that he is treated very differently by Muslims who are fairer-skinned.

So it would be more mature not to stick Hinduism with these self-improvement targets, but humanity in general.

And that includes the ``lower castes`` and the ``dalits`` who exhibit the same kinds of biases, preferences and prejudices within their own community, any time they are given the chance. Have you ever noticed how the Basketball players in the USA always gravitate towards more ``white``-looking wives?



So it`s best not to bring religion into this.

Kaalchakra...enough of this crap about our (hindu) `short comings`. Our greatest short-coming is our propensity for self-loathing and self-flagellation.

kane, Ajeya

I agree fully with everything both of you wrote, but reach somewhat different conclusions. That isn`t an undesirable situation. It shows that the problem is important enough to merit a variety of solutions.

But dalitji`s game is not to discuss one real problem (of caste), but to derail the discussion of another (of terrorism). So we can learn from one another at some other time.

#57 by Ajeya
“He`s obviously not from a good background.”

Dalit…hehehehe…untouchable….no good background…. hehehehe

Heheheh …and good background writes……heheheheh

“Maybe from an extremely poor and uneducated muslim family that used to be an uneducated dalit family that was converted by force. It seems rape and violence might have been involved.”

269 by Ajeya on being Imrana board…
Hehehehe…good background writes.

“And he REALLY got MANY idiot converts who were thrilled to know that after they die they`ll be rewarded with 72 whores who would become virgins again and again - i.e. their hymens would repair themselves repeatedly.

What a deep philosophical worldview!

No wonder your father converted!”

Goodbackground removed….heheheh….good background…heheheheh

#289 by Ajeya on July 20, 2005 9:53pm PT
*** Removed for violating InterAct! Guidelines ***

Hehehehe

Another good background writes….heheheheh

#59 by Kane

“personal opinion that he is the biological father of his wife`s children...”

Good background…heheheh…very good background…heheheheh…

Typical hindu background….heheheheh

Kaalchakra....`caste` used to be problem. It isn`t anymore. Infact these days its advantageous to be a low caste hindu in India. The lower the caste , the better , as far as job prospects are concerned. 50% reservation in jobs and college seats for lower caste hindus in India. So to reinforce and justify this reservation policy , it becomes necessary to maintain the facade of being persecuted against.

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kane

You, dalitji, and I can all discuss that at another time.

Dalitji would hate to see the discussion of terrorism derailed. So we shouldn`t be continuing to engage him and thus getting sidetracked here. :)

Kane: I did not deny Modi (the Monkey King) a visa to enter the US. The US government did. Now put on a monkey cap and show me your monkey dance.

For Tahmed32...this is what the `Rest of the World` is talking about >>


It`s time we accepted the difficult truth: many of the Muslims we invite to live in Australia want to destroy us.

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Re: #65 by Dalit


My, that did hit a weak spot, didn`t it?

So I was right. You ARE from that kind of a background.


Well Dalit, it`s not your fault.

Just tell yourself again and again that you are no less than anybody else, INCLUDING Hindus.

And when you bring up your children, try not to talk too much about your past. And tone down that anti-Hindu rhetoric. It`s a pretty thin veneer over your insecurity.

Otherwise, your children will be like you too, insecure and constantly trying to prove that they are respectable.

Kane #71 Sure...Modi is worse than a terrorist. A terrorist represents no one but himself and his own bunch of thugs. Modi the Monkey King is an elected leader. He represents the viewpoint of majority of the hindus in Gujerat - they elected him EVEN AFTER the Gujerat riots. The US government denied him a visa specifically due to the Gujerat riots and the killings of innocent people. You are just another delusional Indian who thinks the rest of the world does not know the reality of communal hatreds and mob violence in India.

Also, I see you just did the monkey dance (by aping what I wrote in calling for you to do the dance). Modi the Monkey King would be proud of you.

Re: #71 by Kane

Kane,

I would suggest that you find yourself someone of some decency to argue with.

Don`t get fooled by the fact that he can read and write. Remember, this tahmed32 character follows a man you wouldn`t let your six-year-old little girl alone in the room with.

Re: # 73 tahmed : Terrorism breeds out of powerlessness. Modi was voted to power by Hindus who thought they were wronged in Godhra. What followed Godhra was of course wrong but doesn`t that kind of a thing happen when a certain critical mass is reached in a nuclear reaction. You can see the critical mass building up in western society. Only their reaction is more calibrated and sensible. If only in place of Modi a better leader was in charge this chain reaction would have been arrested or addressed.

The surest way to defeat terrorism would be empowerment of the people. Indian Muslim played a pivotal role in defeating BJP. He/she feels empowered and as a result Indian Muslim is not a terrorist. So if Islamic teachings in isolation were the culprit even Indian Muslim would have been a terrorist. In their home countries give people democratic rights. In international fora give these countries a voice. Erase powerlessness and terrorism would be defeated. However, till the disease is treated from its roots, its symptoms will have to be dealt with firmly. Force is to be met with force and argument with argument.

I also feel that the concept of nation state has lost its relevance. It has given a lot of distorted perceptions of persecution to a lot of people worldwide. I will appreciate your and other interactors` views.

Tahmed .....``You are just another delusional Indian who thinks the rest of the world does not know the reality of communal hatreds and mob violence in India.``

`Rest of the world` does not really care what happens to muslims. `Rest of the World` hates muslims. Modi was not denied visa because of killing of 2000 muslims during Gujarat riots , as it is commonly perceived , but because of his opposition to missionary activity in his state. That is why 2 Congressman sponsored by the Southern Baptists got the visa denied to Modi. Not out of any love or care for what happened to muslims in Gujarat.

And if you think `Rest of the World` is even remotely as worried or concerned about the `reality of mob violence in India` , as much as the reality of Islam and muslims , you are an idiot.

By the Tahmed ....FYI...the state of Gujarat , with just 50 million people , is economically more productive than the whole of Pakistan - a country of 170 million. Gujarat is India`s #1 state in terms of economic produce , accounting for 20% of India`s exports. And such a state voted with overwhelming majority for Narendra Modi. Under Modi , Gujarat`s economy has been chugging along at a China-like 10% p.a.....

So Modi was denied a Visa by US ? Big deal. He addressed the conference in Flushing Meadows for which he was the Chief Guest via teleconference. And he is still the democratically elected popular Chief Minister of the rich and vibrant state of Gujarat.

Southasian......how do you explain the fact that majority of muslims in UK are sympathisers of terrorism ? Would you say that UK is not a democracy ? Accept the fact that Islam is an evil cult that hates freedom , democracy ,equality , modernity , secularism and progress. That is why muslims are in such a mess and hated all over the civilised world.

Re: # 79 well they couldn`t vote out Blair, could they? I bet if they could there would have been no attacks. Powerlessness and despair! At least in America a new guy becomes President after 8 years.

Kane (various): I am thru wasting time with you because you have nothing intelligent to say. Just the same hollow bs. I didnt read your posts, and dont expect a reply.

southasian #75 I think it is wrong to simply say that ``terrorism breeds out of powerlessness``. There is enough evidence that terrorists are in fact well funded and very much in control of their lives to the point of becoming arrogant.

Also, the example you give is factually incorrect: You say that ``Modi was voted to power by Hindus who thought they were wronged in Godhra. `` In fact, he was Chief Minister of Gujerat (since 2001) when the Godhra riots took place (which took place in 2002). What I was referring to was the fact that he was RE-elected EVEN after the Gujerat carnage where he was implicated strongly enough for the US to deny him a visa.

Please dont try to defend the indefensible by trying to ``explain`` the reasons behind the Gujerat carnage. This makes you no better than those muslims who seek to ``explain`` the reasons behind terrorism conducted in the name of their religion. Terrorism is a crime against humanity. As a much quoted phrase from the Quran itself says - the taking of an innocent life is an attack on all humanity. We need to be united in our common humanity - not divided on the basis of religion or even on the basis of being ``south asian``. We can be proud of being Pakistanis or Indians or South Asians. But this pride has to be ``with malice towards none`` (to use my favorite quote from Abraham Lincoln).

I am with you when it comes to seeking a better future for the hundreds of millions of poverty stricken individuals in India and for the tens of millions of similarly poverty stricken individuals in Pakistan.


PS: Here is the BBC timeline on the Gujerat riots - I did my research on google before correcting your facts to make sure I was right.

Gujerat massacres, timeline on BBC website

Extract:

Feb 2002: BJP rules out committing itself to the construction of a temple in its election manifesto for Uttar Pradesh assembly elections. VHP confirms deadline of 15 March to begin construction. Hundreds of volunteers converge on site. At least 58 people are killed in an attack on a train in Godhra which is carrying Hindu activists returning from Ayodhya.

Mar 2002: Between 1,000 and 2,000 people, mostly Muslims, die in riots in Gujarat following the train attack.

Re: # 80 Continuing along this line. The Muslims of the subcontinent lost their vote on Indian affairs in 1947. Whatever happens in India, whatever the pretensions, our Pakistani cousins have an opinion. Sometimes the opinion is so strong that only a vote would have done any justice to it. This despair and inability to influence events in India have given rise to anti India terrorism. Explains again why Indian Muslim is not a terrorist despite being in the direct line of fire whereas for the same inciting events Pakistani Mujahideen ties a RDX belt around himself. If only he could vote in Indian elections.

Chutiya32...it doesn`t really matter what a pompous geriatric nincompoop like you thinks or says anyway..

``The Muslims of the subcontinent lost their vote on Indian affairs in 1947. ``

Please read it as ``muslims of the North West and Bengal lost their vote on Indian affairs in 1947.``

#82 tahmed: Its not my intention to justify Gujarat riots. Surely that is one of the worst things to have happened in independent India. I am however trying to explain peoples` behaviour with the help of the theory of powerlessness, alienation and reaction to it. People, voted for Modi, is a fact. If you have an alternative explanation other than the standard one please let me know.

``I think it is wrong to simply say that ``terrorism breeds out of powerlessness``. There is enough evidence that terrorists are in fact well funded and very much in control of their lives to the point of becoming arrogant.``

The powerless I talked about was not on an individual scale. I was talking about a certain perceived powerlessness as a group like not being able to do something about injustices suffered by the group. (Palestine, Iraq and so on...)

Re: #75 by southasian

[You can see the critical mass building up in western society. Only their reaction is more calibrated and sensible. ]

Actually southasian, your kind is assessment is far more harmful to us Indians and Hindus than someone like urstruly or tahmed32. Urstruly and tahmed32 types are quite obviously fanatics, and would be dismissed by the world out of hand. But your comment is much more insidious ``..only their reaction is more calibrated and sensible``.

On the face of it, this is an eminently reasonable statement. Seemingly mature and conciliatory. But you are condemning us Hindus very cleverly here.

Our Indians are poor, and outwardly not very sophisticated. But they have shown far more patience and class than westerners have.

Try killing the British at the rate of a half-a-dozen dozen a day for 40 years - no - only 40 days - and THEN try to compare the public reaction. And this WITHOUT the thousand years of mass murder and oppression that Hindus have faced.

DO NOT put us Indians down just because we are a poor country compared to the West. And because our poor live in squalor and filth.

We WERE the richest country once - yes, really! - brown skin and all - and will be again. Just keep watching.

Re: # 86 Yes, but there is rule of law. As proud patriots we should have the rule of law irrespective of anything and the response has to come from the state in accordance with law not from people. That`s what I mean by calibrated response. This is what I can see happening in Britain right now.

Re: #87 by southasian

[Yes, but there is rule of law. As proud patriots we should have the rule of law irrespective of anything and the response has to come from the state in accordance with law not from people. That`s what I mean by calibrated response. This is what I can see happening in Britain right now. ]

But you are comparing apples and oranges. As I said, you cannot compare the Hindu experience with what the British have had to endure. Put the British through the SAME scenario as the Hindus have been, and they would have killed every Muslim in sight. And nuked every Islamic religious holy site. Instead, the Indian government is busy subsidizing Haj trips to Mecca.

Also, out of the 750-or-so people OFFICIALLY (Sonia Government numbers) dead, around 250 Hindus were shot and killed by the Nazi-like Modi government. Strange, isn`t it?

In any case, by the same ``rule of law`` theory, I cannot condemn the Modi government until the Congress-sanctioned (not Laloo-sanctioned) enquiry proves otherwise. And the ``secular`` Congress government has tried, but come up empty.

Have to run now.

Quite obviously terrorism is as condemnable as could be. But we must find solution to it and we can`t find solutions unless we try to find reasons. You may not agree with this alienation/powerlessness hypothesis. This theory is not even mine. It`s there in standard social psychology text books.