How green is their valley?
Farzana Versey July 25, 2005
reply to this interact
write a new interact
add to favorites
flag objectionable content
#183 Posted by cayenne on July 30, 2005 12:32:48 am
This is not nice.No one`s hands are clean in all of this.The best way out is a fac saving compromise to make the kashmiris look good.And, absolute crackdown on terrorism by the paks.If not , the international community will step in and Pak will become another Iraq or Afghanistan.Who`s got more to lose??................
Last Updated: Friday, 29 July 2005, 09:21 GMT 10:21 UK
BBC News
E-mail this to a friend Printable version
Militants `slit Hindus` throats`
Suspected Muslim militants have raided a village in Indian-administered Kashmir, slitting the throats of five Hindus, police have said.
The attackers entered Dhoob village, 200km (125 miles) north-west of Jammu and segregated Muslims from Hindus before the killings, the police said.
No group has yet said it carried out Thursday night`s attack.
There are a number of Muslim militant groups in the region which have been fighting Indian rule since 1989
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4727057.stm
Last Updated: Friday, 29 July 2005, 09:21 GMT 10:21 UK
BBC News
E-mail this to a friend Printable version
Militants `slit Hindus` throats`
Suspected Muslim militants have raided a village in Indian-administered Kashmir, slitting the throats of five Hindus, police have said.
The attackers entered Dhoob village, 200km (125 miles) north-west of Jammu and segregated Muslims from Hindus before the killings, the police said.
No group has yet said it carried out Thursday night`s attack.
There are a number of Muslim militant groups in the region which have been fighting Indian rule since 1989
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4727057.stm
#182 Posted by Vaaiz on July 29, 2005 3:37:40 am
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
view this users filtered interacts
#181 Posted by cayenne on July 29, 2005 12:58:29 am
Re: # 177
EEEEWWW!.Thanks but no thanks.More puthars and sand storms(andheris) is what we would have ended up with.Have you seen a pak-punjabi lately?.Dim, would be a complimentary word to describe them.Remember DR.Gill, who works in the Detroit SEWER department?
EEEEWWW!.Thanks but no thanks.More puthars and sand storms(andheris) is what we would have ended up with.Have you seen a pak-punjabi lately?.Dim, would be a complimentary word to describe them.Remember DR.Gill, who works in the Detroit SEWER department?
#180 Posted by BeeJay on July 28, 2005 9:39:36 pm
WARNING: THIS INTERACT DOES NOT CONTAIN HUMOR. READ AT YOUR OWN RISK.
An interactor earlier suggested to me (in good faith, I’m sure) to focus my comments on the article itself, rather than the supposed “shortcomings” of the author. I fully understand the sentiment.
In future, I will try to do so as much as possible. However, with this article, let me tell you why I find it so difficult. There are two reasons.
First, I have considerable regard for this author’s talents – on issues that deal with subtle sentiments, human emotions, style, and the like. I have a difficult time reconciling her apparent compassion for everybody with selective indifference toward segments of her country’s population.
Second, and the real problem, is that responding to the contents of an article like this plays right into the hands of what the author’s design seems to be – she is trying to generate discussion on the fictitious issue of WHETHER (and HOW MUCH) the Pandits were victims!
The REAL issue, the enormity of an ethnic cleaning – the first we have seen in independent India (in complicity with a foreign power, which this author conveniently fails to mention) – the first precedent that indeed it is possible to wholesale uproot a minority – completely escapes her – or does it?! And if that example were to be used as a role model to be followed up on a larger scale – what the implications are for her country – also goes over her head – or does it?
When she wrote her original article, this author (there is no kinder way to put it) screwed up. Now, instead of being able to face up to having screwed up, she digs into her heels – she hides away her burqa, sneaks into somebody’s home (I bet she never told the “interviewed” lady about what she had written in her first article (Author, if you got guts, answer a YES or NO to that! (Of course, she won’t!)), or she would have found herself unceremoniously booted out, landing her fanny flat on the pavement.) She brought no professional colleagues with her, ensuring for herself an ability to pick and choose facts as she fancied them to suit her weird point of view that although kicked out from their ancestral homes – these Pandit folks were actually a pampered lot!
One could be kind to the author and call her “screwed up” and let go at that! Many sane chowkies (both Indian and Pakistanis) have come to that conclusion and left it at that (Author, how does it feel to be patronized?). The janitor refuses to do that and all the knights have bolted – mortally afraid of the mop!
This product the author serves here is no fly in the soup. It’s the real yellowish brown, soft-like stuff with a strongly disagreeable aroma – and the janitor will have no part of it – let the author and her cohorts enjoy this fruit of her hard work all by themselves! They deserve every bit of it! Enjoy to your heart’s fill! And don’t stop yourselves from going for seconds, thirds… whatever!
Let me talk a bit about what the author’s intentions appear to be. She projects the image of a confrontationist who only has “benign” wishes for her country. A lot of her civic-center type articles have the appearance of shadow-boxing. And certainly, on any topic, one can make multiple maneuvers and dance around in one place for a while, creating doubts regarding which way one is headed. However, taken cumulatively and over time, it is not so difficult to guess in what direction her overall movement is occurring.
When everything is said and done, it is becoming extremely difficult to find an issue on which this author takes a position substantially or significantly different from individuals whose openly avowed aim in life is to hurt India and everything that India stands for – especially its secularism. What is interesting and perhaps pathetic is that this author lacks even the courage that such groups show, of openly stating what her intentions are. Like in her i-logs, in her articles also she likes to twist words which can be interpreted in a variety of ways – just to leave a gossamer-thin cover for her. However, this trick can only succeed to a point! No further!
As usual, I’m sorry about any hurt to any individuals that these statements may cause. The reality is that words of denunciation, outrage, calumny, and even expletives have only a limited ability to hurt us – especially for those who have developed the necessary resilience (through repeated practice, I’m sure). Those are no big deals! There is one, just one thing that penetrates through all that armor and hits home, because it is so simple!
And that’s the truth!
At this point, I would like to address a few words to the Kashmiri Pandits who suffered – directly or through their relations.
Many have failed you!
I and individuals like me are strong believers in the Second amendment – the ultimate responsibility for an individual’s defense lies with the individual! There are good reasons for that amendment in the U.S. In India, I see some of those same reasons in place in states like Bihar (and perhaps other parts of the country), where individuals and families have taken to arms in their own defense – to protect themselves – because even though they were originally law-abiding citizens, there was nobody to protect them – from tough men, from corrupt politicians, from hordes of masses who simply outnumbered them. Government is a necessary evil and it is rarely a reliable protector even in the most developed and most civilized of places, mostly it protects its own vested interests, which only tend to enlarge over time! India, of course is still developing.
Having said all of that, YOU, and not people in far-away places (within and outside India) are the best judges of what makes sense – to stay put or to escape – in a given situation! You had the right to make that call – and you did! Those of you who could – chose the way that suited you best – including escape – to survive.
No HONEST Indian would begrudge your escaping with your lives intact, then building up new lives! It’s one of the toughest things to do in life – starting over! It consists of picking up shards – not just of one’s ego, which this author is always whining about – but that of one’s whole life and that of families, friends, neighbors, all at once sometimes!
Whatever community support you received ought to be held as a role model and should be emulated by other communities. In many respects, it mirrors what the Jewish people went through after the holocaust (and is it a mere coincidence that I have noticed this author exhibit contempt for those people, too)! There is not a single individual in this world that has not needed a helping hand at some point or other in his or her life. Your success at surviving can provide hope to others who may find themselves in similar predicament – only petty-hearted individuals of the lowest order (the janitor interjects: “the scum of the earth”) will put a negative spin on that! The fact that this author keeps on harping the same tune makes HER look like a pathetic ignoramus, a cruel schemer, or worse!
And there is one more thing! What is the effect of doing the outrageous things this author seems to be doing?! Who does it hurt? Not the Pandits – their hurting has already been inflicted and was inflicted by others, not by her! Those who survived that terrible ordeal have proved their mettle by coming out and being able to deal with the hardship successfully, and by becoming positive contributors!
But look at this talented author – she has to hide herself inside her “garden” of this pathetic web-site and spend her considerable creative talents on pondering over, dodging, and (when absolutely forced through jeers and taunts administered by this “nacheej” Beej) responding to the words of trivial janitors – janitors with limited skills and talents and resources in every respect! And the best argument she can contrive is something as pathetic as – the sewer I saw a couple of days ago was worse than this! Wow! The height of literary accomplishment!
And do you think this issue is going to leave her any time soon? Well, guess again!
Who is the loser here – the Pandits or the author?! My bet is on the author!
EVERYBODY on this site knows that – even the people on the “other” side! That’s why NOBODY supports HER criticism of the Pandits, even though all the usual opportunists are here – using her board to score those same old same-olds which they have done – oh, only a million times or so before!
Her cohorts may disagree with what I say here! They should feel free to do so – they have every right to live in their make-believe world! But somebody needs to remind them that the days of the Mughal raj are long gone – have been gone for more than 300 years! It’s a brave new world, where exclusivity is out – and you guys and gal have missed the train!
Let’s all try to be kinder to this set of losers! On my part, I’ll try to hold off on the darshan routine, because I usually leave this author absolutely clueless!
An interactor earlier suggested to me (in good faith, I’m sure) to focus my comments on the article itself, rather than the supposed “shortcomings” of the author. I fully understand the sentiment.
In future, I will try to do so as much as possible. However, with this article, let me tell you why I find it so difficult. There are two reasons.
First, I have considerable regard for this author’s talents – on issues that deal with subtle sentiments, human emotions, style, and the like. I have a difficult time reconciling her apparent compassion for everybody with selective indifference toward segments of her country’s population.
Second, and the real problem, is that responding to the contents of an article like this plays right into the hands of what the author’s design seems to be – she is trying to generate discussion on the fictitious issue of WHETHER (and HOW MUCH) the Pandits were victims!
The REAL issue, the enormity of an ethnic cleaning – the first we have seen in independent India (in complicity with a foreign power, which this author conveniently fails to mention) – the first precedent that indeed it is possible to wholesale uproot a minority – completely escapes her – or does it?! And if that example were to be used as a role model to be followed up on a larger scale – what the implications are for her country – also goes over her head – or does it?
When she wrote her original article, this author (there is no kinder way to put it) screwed up. Now, instead of being able to face up to having screwed up, she digs into her heels – she hides away her burqa, sneaks into somebody’s home (I bet she never told the “interviewed” lady about what she had written in her first article (Author, if you got guts, answer a YES or NO to that! (Of course, she won’t!)), or she would have found herself unceremoniously booted out, landing her fanny flat on the pavement.) She brought no professional colleagues with her, ensuring for herself an ability to pick and choose facts as she fancied them to suit her weird point of view that although kicked out from their ancestral homes – these Pandit folks were actually a pampered lot!
One could be kind to the author and call her “screwed up” and let go at that! Many sane chowkies (both Indian and Pakistanis) have come to that conclusion and left it at that (Author, how does it feel to be patronized?). The janitor refuses to do that and all the knights have bolted – mortally afraid of the mop!
This product the author serves here is no fly in the soup. It’s the real yellowish brown, soft-like stuff with a strongly disagreeable aroma – and the janitor will have no part of it – let the author and her cohorts enjoy this fruit of her hard work all by themselves! They deserve every bit of it! Enjoy to your heart’s fill! And don’t stop yourselves from going for seconds, thirds… whatever!
Let me talk a bit about what the author’s intentions appear to be. She projects the image of a confrontationist who only has “benign” wishes for her country. A lot of her civic-center type articles have the appearance of shadow-boxing. And certainly, on any topic, one can make multiple maneuvers and dance around in one place for a while, creating doubts regarding which way one is headed. However, taken cumulatively and over time, it is not so difficult to guess in what direction her overall movement is occurring.
When everything is said and done, it is becoming extremely difficult to find an issue on which this author takes a position substantially or significantly different from individuals whose openly avowed aim in life is to hurt India and everything that India stands for – especially its secularism. What is interesting and perhaps pathetic is that this author lacks even the courage that such groups show, of openly stating what her intentions are. Like in her i-logs, in her articles also she likes to twist words which can be interpreted in a variety of ways – just to leave a gossamer-thin cover for her. However, this trick can only succeed to a point! No further!
As usual, I’m sorry about any hurt to any individuals that these statements may cause. The reality is that words of denunciation, outrage, calumny, and even expletives have only a limited ability to hurt us – especially for those who have developed the necessary resilience (through repeated practice, I’m sure). Those are no big deals! There is one, just one thing that penetrates through all that armor and hits home, because it is so simple!
And that’s the truth!
At this point, I would like to address a few words to the Kashmiri Pandits who suffered – directly or through their relations.
Many have failed you!
I and individuals like me are strong believers in the Second amendment – the ultimate responsibility for an individual’s defense lies with the individual! There are good reasons for that amendment in the U.S. In India, I see some of those same reasons in place in states like Bihar (and perhaps other parts of the country), where individuals and families have taken to arms in their own defense – to protect themselves – because even though they were originally law-abiding citizens, there was nobody to protect them – from tough men, from corrupt politicians, from hordes of masses who simply outnumbered them. Government is a necessary evil and it is rarely a reliable protector even in the most developed and most civilized of places, mostly it protects its own vested interests, which only tend to enlarge over time! India, of course is still developing.
Having said all of that, YOU, and not people in far-away places (within and outside India) are the best judges of what makes sense – to stay put or to escape – in a given situation! You had the right to make that call – and you did! Those of you who could – chose the way that suited you best – including escape – to survive.
No HONEST Indian would begrudge your escaping with your lives intact, then building up new lives! It’s one of the toughest things to do in life – starting over! It consists of picking up shards – not just of one’s ego, which this author is always whining about – but that of one’s whole life and that of families, friends, neighbors, all at once sometimes!
Whatever community support you received ought to be held as a role model and should be emulated by other communities. In many respects, it mirrors what the Jewish people went through after the holocaust (and is it a mere coincidence that I have noticed this author exhibit contempt for those people, too)! There is not a single individual in this world that has not needed a helping hand at some point or other in his or her life. Your success at surviving can provide hope to others who may find themselves in similar predicament – only petty-hearted individuals of the lowest order (the janitor interjects: “the scum of the earth”) will put a negative spin on that! The fact that this author keeps on harping the same tune makes HER look like a pathetic ignoramus, a cruel schemer, or worse!
And there is one more thing! What is the effect of doing the outrageous things this author seems to be doing?! Who does it hurt? Not the Pandits – their hurting has already been inflicted and was inflicted by others, not by her! Those who survived that terrible ordeal have proved their mettle by coming out and being able to deal with the hardship successfully, and by becoming positive contributors!
But look at this talented author – she has to hide herself inside her “garden” of this pathetic web-site and spend her considerable creative talents on pondering over, dodging, and (when absolutely forced through jeers and taunts administered by this “nacheej” Beej) responding to the words of trivial janitors – janitors with limited skills and talents and resources in every respect! And the best argument she can contrive is something as pathetic as – the sewer I saw a couple of days ago was worse than this! Wow! The height of literary accomplishment!
And do you think this issue is going to leave her any time soon? Well, guess again!
Who is the loser here – the Pandits or the author?! My bet is on the author!
EVERYBODY on this site knows that – even the people on the “other” side! That’s why NOBODY supports HER criticism of the Pandits, even though all the usual opportunists are here – using her board to score those same old same-olds which they have done – oh, only a million times or so before!
Her cohorts may disagree with what I say here! They should feel free to do so – they have every right to live in their make-believe world! But somebody needs to remind them that the days of the Mughal raj are long gone – have been gone for more than 300 years! It’s a brave new world, where exclusivity is out – and you guys and gal have missed the train!
Let’s all try to be kinder to this set of losers! On my part, I’ll try to hold off on the darshan routine, because I usually leave this author absolutely clueless!
#179 Posted by veeresh on July 28, 2005 6:27:19 pm
I think we should all give Farzana the benefit of the disruption caused by the Mumbai floods. In as much as networks and electricity being down, as well as the sheer scale of the disaster yet unfolding.
Though, at the same time, if ANYTHING proves that we are a secular nation, it is these calamities. And the people on the street responses subsequently.
Though, at the same time, if ANYTHING proves that we are a secular nation, it is these calamities. And the people on the street responses subsequently.
#178 Posted by KaalChakra on July 28, 2005 1:16:49 pm
delhiwala
I don`t know the details of the trade you suggested. I guess a fair trade of land should be acceptable to all parties, since land is what Pakistan wants and India will not give up.
Yaar, there is no reason for Muslims in India to be the losers. People always lose and gain by association. To the extent Muslims in India are seen to be associated with anti Hindu/Sikh forces elsewhere in the world, they would lose. To the extent they are seen to be with Hindus and Sikhs, and against Anti-Hindu/Sikh forces in the world, they would actually gain.
The law of cause and effect works fairly well most of the times.
I don`t know the details of the trade you suggested. I guess a fair trade of land should be acceptable to all parties, since land is what Pakistan wants and India will not give up.
Yaar, there is no reason for Muslims in India to be the losers. People always lose and gain by association. To the extent Muslims in India are seen to be associated with anti Hindu/Sikh forces elsewhere in the world, they would lose. To the extent they are seen to be with Hindus and Sikhs, and against Anti-Hindu/Sikh forces in the world, they would actually gain.
The law of cause and effect works fairly well most of the times.
#177 Posted by delhiwala on July 28, 2005 12:57:21 pm
Re: # 176
I know that they have really wiped out or forced Sikhs and Pandits in Indian Kashmir.
KPS Gill wanted to go there but BJP refused. I wonder what would have happened then?
Last time Kashmir saw rule of the law was when Hari Singh Nalwa got it and Ranjit Singh`s 11 th son was born and named Kashmira Singh preceding Peshaura Singh.
I don`t know the solution, but I do know one thing. India will never give up Kashmir by talks etc. and Pakistanis will never give their claim, loosers would be Kashmiris and rest of the Muslims in India.
How about we trade Lahore with Kashmir, ever thought about, this was discussed in Jan 1947 between Jinnah and others. Sheikhupura distt was 2/3 Sikh/Hindu but still given to Pakistan. It could have been traded with Kashmir then.
I guess.
I know that they have really wiped out or forced Sikhs and Pandits in Indian Kashmir.
KPS Gill wanted to go there but BJP refused. I wonder what would have happened then?
Last time Kashmir saw rule of the law was when Hari Singh Nalwa got it and Ranjit Singh`s 11 th son was born and named Kashmira Singh preceding Peshaura Singh.
I don`t know the solution, but I do know one thing. India will never give up Kashmir by talks etc. and Pakistanis will never give their claim, loosers would be Kashmiris and rest of the Muslims in India.
How about we trade Lahore with Kashmir, ever thought about, this was discussed in Jan 1947 between Jinnah and others. Sheikhupura distt was 2/3 Sikh/Hindu but still given to Pakistan. It could have been traded with Kashmir then.
I guess.
#176 Posted by friend on July 28, 2005 12:40:04 pm
Kaalchakra #175
No I am not from that part of Himalayas. But I have been to Kashmir enough times, and have been with Kashmiris enough times to know places and people.
I have been to chota Pakistan and sopore.
No I am not from that part of Himalayas. But I have been to Kashmir enough times, and have been with Kashmiris enough times to know places and people.
I have been to chota Pakistan and sopore.
#175 Posted by KaalChakra on July 28, 2005 12:00:25 pm
Friend
Hmmm...you do know your Sopore.
Have you lived in those parts? Are you a Kashmiri?
Hmmm...you do know your Sopore.
Have you lived in those parts? Are you a Kashmiri?
#174 Posted by Gandiv on July 28, 2005 11:24:27 am
kaura,
Kashmir`s problem is its muslim majority, their proximity to paki jehadis and secular hijdapan of central leadership in Delhi.
10 Lakh muslims in Kashmir are whining while being pampered whereas 10 crore muslims elsewhere in India have learned to live with it, of course excluding aberrations like Fuzzy.
We need to find a long lasting solution for all of these illnesses.
Kashmir`s problem is its muslim majority, their proximity to paki jehadis and secular hijdapan of central leadership in Delhi.
10 Lakh muslims in Kashmir are whining while being pampered whereas 10 crore muslims elsewhere in India have learned to live with it, of course excluding aberrations like Fuzzy.
We need to find a long lasting solution for all of these illnesses.
#173 Posted by friend on July 28, 2005 11:01:11 am
Farzana`s advise to Pandits is that they should stay in Valley and face terrorism heads-on. I have another better advice for her.
Let her go to Kashmir, pretending to be a hindu woman, live there for few months and than report her experiences back to us. It would be even better if she can try to live in Sopore or Lal chowk.
Let her go to Kashmir, pretending to be a hindu woman, live there for few months and than report her experiences back to us. It would be even better if she can try to live in Sopore or Lal chowk.
#172 Posted by kaurasach on July 28, 2005 10:39:38 am
Kashmir`s problem and freedom struggle is religion based and the demands and solutions are also religious based. Everyone knows what happened when a nation was created based on religious demands in 47.
The folly should not be repeated again. Kashmiri muslims in general have no desire to include non muslim Kashmiris.
Kashmiri freedom may bring freedom to Kashmiri muslims and solve THEIR problems. That won`t end the Paki/Indian/Hindu/Muslim animosities.
Kashmir is just an EXCUSE to stir Kanjarpana in India. If Kashmir is given independence, Pakis will come up with an excuse in NEFA, UP, etc. - just like Palestine has been used an excuse for worldwide terrorism by muslim fanatics and their billion or so supporters. Now that the Palestine issue/conflict has cooled, Iraq and Afghanistan are new excuses to wage terror in every corner of the world.
The folly should not be repeated again. Kashmiri muslims in general have no desire to include non muslim Kashmiris.
Kashmiri freedom may bring freedom to Kashmiri muslims and solve THEIR problems. That won`t end the Paki/Indian/Hindu/Muslim animosities.
Kashmir is just an EXCUSE to stir Kanjarpana in India. If Kashmir is given independence, Pakis will come up with an excuse in NEFA, UP, etc. - just like Palestine has been used an excuse for worldwide terrorism by muslim fanatics and their billion or so supporters. Now that the Palestine issue/conflict has cooled, Iraq and Afghanistan are new excuses to wage terror in every corner of the world.
#171 Posted by kaurasach on July 28, 2005 9:11:04 am
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
view this users filtered interacts
#170 Posted by KaalChakra on July 28, 2005 8:52:08 am
Focus on the issues raised by the article. Don`t let Mr. NonDalit provoke you into getting sidetracked. Ignore him totally.
Mr. NonDalit is afraid of certain issues. He is trying to hide his own problems by misusing the name of dalits. That is a shame.
Allow him to continue with his he he`s alone or in the company of similar, non Dalit admirers. Let these admirers be exposed for what they are - people who lack their own arguments, and so must rely on trickery and fraud.
Again, from this point onwards, totally ignore Mr. NonDalit. Only a particularly thickheaded person cannot see through his game of pulling people away from the subject of this article.
Mr. NonDalit is afraid of certain issues. He is trying to hide his own problems by misusing the name of dalits. That is a shame.
Allow him to continue with his he he`s alone or in the company of similar, non Dalit admirers. Let these admirers be exposed for what they are - people who lack their own arguments, and so must rely on trickery and fraud.
Again, from this point onwards, totally ignore Mr. NonDalit. Only a particularly thickheaded person cannot see through his game of pulling people away from the subject of this article.
#169 Posted by arjun_m on July 28, 2005 7:51:17 am
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
view this users filtered interacts
Interact Index
Latest Interacts
- borivili_express: India's probs are much... India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in
- pakiturk: nkg #245 {"the point... An Indian Muslim
- pakiturk: #248 Posted by CoolAL... An Indian Muslim
- pakiturk: Zardari on Larry King... I Am A Pakistani
- pakiturk: Zardari on Larry King... The Future of Indo
- pakiturk: Zardari on Larry King... Pleas For Sanity as
- pakiturk: Zardari on Larry King... India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in
- Pew_Research: Re: # 290 "That FATA... India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in
