Pakistan’s Choice

Re: # 426
Telling a hindu that he can consume cow meat is not an oxymoron; provided the cow is a firungi jersey cow and not indian goumata ;)

#457 by Romair on August 3, 2005 7:45pm PT


I can say with a lot of certainity that if a people`s revolution ever came, the servant in my house is not going to run to the mosque and grab the maulvi`s throat. He will turn to me and grab my throat.


Have you considered a t-shirt with a canadian flag to stay safe while you are in Pakistan? Clearly the US and UK flags are not a good idea....

one second thoughts, they might give you some payback for all the taliban killed by the the princess patricia`s snipers.

Godot #451: ``When lost an election, a peaceful transfer of power to the winner. Once in power, Pakistani mullahs are highly unlikely to do that. In fact, once in power, Pakistani mullahs will so quickly and so radically suffocate everyone in Pakistan that people like you, me, and Haroon will not have time to cry, “mommy.”

That is precisely the dilemma and the danger Pakistan is facing today...``

I never vote for mullah parties. Never have, never will (unless Benazir is the only other candidate). But we need to get the facts straight. Mullah parties are amongst the most democratic in Pakistan. They are one of the few parties which have internal elections. And are not heridatory. And most of all, they are the only lower-middle class parties in Pakistan. They have put farmers and poor laborers and lower class maulvis into the assemblies. Most of the rest, like PPP and PML, are elitist heridatory parties, which never hold internal leadership elections. They have Chairpersons for Life.

Mullahs are just a nuisance who will disappear, the moment any credible non-mullah leadership appears (different from the corrupt feudal PPP and PML). Pakistan has much bigger problems than mullahs..........

Also, there is more to Pakistan than, ``you me and Haroon.`` We are a tiny microscopic elite. In fact, you and me aren`t even in Pakistan. We are volutarily foreigners. Let me tell you something: There is a mosque close to my house in Pakistan. I can say with a lot of certainity that if a people`s revolution ever came, the servant in my house is not going to run to the mosque and grab the maulvi`s throat. He will turn to me and grab my throat.

I don`t know how much you have worked with true middle-class (real middle class with no cars and motorcycles; not Chowk middle-class wannabees) and lower middle class Pakistanis, but rest assured, you and me (i.e. the rich folks) are far more disliked amongst common Pakistanis than anyone else (including the mullah). The middle-class considers the mullah just a removable nuisance, since he is even poorer than they are. It considers us the elitist mafia, which hogs all the nation`s resources..........

So, I don`t think mullah is the biggest challenge facing Pakistan. But since you think so, could you point out how you have reached this conclusion. Are there any surveys, from Pakistanis you can quote. Not from Indians or Americans, but from Pakistanis?

I think maulvis are a problem in Pakistan. But definitely not the biggest one. . I have never heard anyone say, ``Man, the only job I have is as a sweeper at Godot`s (or Romair`s) house, but if I could only get rid of the mullah, everything would be so hunky dory in Pakistan.``

I would put, feudalism in the rural areas, and financial corruption in the urban areas as the main problem. After that I would place the class divisions in the society, with us being the English-speaking elite and the remaining being the Urdu-speaking, ``awam.`` And then I would also place the involvement of the Army in business and politics as the next one. All these before the mullah.....

I personally think all this talk of mullahs and secularism is way overblown on this site. It takes way too much bandwidth for no reason. I would much rather see this bandwidth spent on discussing the improving of the canal systems, the introduction of IT into villages, how to improve the highway system of Pakistan etc.

What people want is a raise in their standard of living. If you don`t believe me, let me ask you a question: Did you and/or your family migrate to the USA for its secularism and democracy? Or did you migrate to make more money and get better jobs? I migrated for the later (more money and better jobs).

haroon #432 Only the good Lord decides who goes to hell or heaven. On the other hand, the good Lord also places responsibility on the individual - NOT on the State, or on any mullah or mard-e-momin - to tell the difference between right and wrong based on his God-given common sense. So, when you see someone consistently do that common sense says is wrong, then you get a pretty good idea where he is headed too.

By using Islam to gain power, the maulvi is clearly headed for hell. So be careful - read the Quran and have faith in your common sense to see what the basic message is. Dont simply follow the rut that has been carved out by the mullah.

On your other points, they are fine except 5. and 9.:

On 5., common sense should tell you that the problem in Pakistan is not ``eid bashing teachers`` (how many ``eid bashing teachers`` have you met in Pakistan??!!), but the crooks who came up with the ``madrassa curriculum`` that has turned tens of thousands of young Pakistani boys into cannon fodder for the maulvi.

On 6., basic economics should tell you that a Common Market does not just about simply because ``muslims`` want it. Economic ties are based on economic realities. The only interest Malaysia has in Pakistan is as a source of some IT people and that is all. Malaysia`s markets are in the developed countries. The only Common Market Turkey wants to join is the European Common Market. Even the arabs dont give a damn for Pakistani`s great love for ``muslim brothers`` - Dubai booted out mullah unceremoniously only yesterday on account of his terrorist ties!! How many ``fellow muslims`` do you see on chowk?? Get real, my young friend. Wake up from the dream world Indian muslims have been living in.


As for Pakistan being an ``Islamic state``, you must be kidding when you say that this will change when the majority of Pakistanis want it changed. Has there ever been a referendum on this or any other issue in Pakistan?? Has anyone bothered to read the Quran and understand its fundamental message - which, as I said earlier, places responsibility on the INDIVIDUAL, NOT on the state, and certainly not on any maulvi or mard-e-momin, for implementation of the message. This responsibility is explicitly denied even to the Holy Prophet himself in the Quran. That is why I say that the concept of an ``Islamic state`` is an oxymoron. That is what the Quran says. And the mauvli defies that - even seeks to arrogate for himself the position denied to the Prophet himself by seeking a morals polics (hasbro). That is why I say that, as surely as the good Lord made the birds and the bees, the mullahs and their followers are headed for hell.

Re: # 452
bbabu,

You said it...man
You said it...

Show that spin doctor..
that we Indians can hit his spin bowling
better than we can hit Murli`s doosra

Jai Hind

shankar #453 You got that one right too, doc!!

Re: # 426

HaroonElahi,

{{Romair, I am not fighting with Mantolives, he was not able to dislodge Don from attacking him so he decided to insult me in order to save face, which he clearly has none.}}

You bring a 16 yr old snot-nosed rich kid to chowk to malign a guy like ylh!!!
It speaks VOLUMES about your own character....
you SHAMELESS dukkar...

Ylh maybe a lot of things.
Lord knows, we Hindians have given him a lot of ulcers on Chowk! :)).

But the man has EARNED my respect.

Right from a young age, he has been STEADFAST in his love for Pakistan.
He has tried VALIANTLY to educate us about the greatness of Jinnah.
Despite the fact that we Hindians buzzed around him like hornets & tried to malign Jinnah.

In all these years on Chowk,
NONE of us have been able to shake his faith in the potential greatness in Pakistan
& his admiration of Jinnah.

It is rock-solid steadfast belief & hope in his PRINCIPLES that makes me feel that there maybe hope for Pakistan; afterall.

Ylh has been UNWAVERING in his VALUES..
because Jinnah was the basis of his values.

When you have towering personalities like Jinnah to shape your super-ego...
What hope do DUKKARS like you have to make ylh look like a fool?

Jeete raho, ylh!
When you have managed (single-handedly-at times) to twart all us slimy banias
who have buzzed around you like hornets..

Attempts to character assassinate you by..
PIGS like haroonelahi & Don Corleone are child`s play...

Dont you DARE leave Chowk because of rich ass*oles like haroon & Don

Romair #442

Godot #436: ``Okay, what if mullahs get elected and then refuse to give up power (screw you “liberals” and democracy and take a hike,” they’ll say to you,) turn Pakistan into theocratic state where the mullahs rule and Pakistan becomes Talibanized? What’s your strategy in that scenario? Or are you willing to live in a Talibanized Pakistan?``

`` This is paradox of democracy. And there is no way around it. It can happen anywhere, i.e. what if groups that one does not agree with get elected and can isolate other groups, after getting elected. ``

Nope. It is not a paradox. You can disqualify anyone who does not believe in the Constitution. You can make democracy a part of the Constitution. If the MMA does not believe in the Constitution you can send them home packing.

`` No Republican Candidate can now get the Republican nomination without the approval of the Religious Right. This is how an unknown and unproven Bush defeated McCain. This is how he eventually defeated Kerry also, despite having a bad economy and an Iraq fiasco. ``

Bob Dole was not exactly a religious conservative. Religious conservatives are important. They are not even majority of the Republican base.

`` Accordinng to Pew Research 45% of Americans now want religion in politics. And according to CNN 23% of the voters are outright Evangelicals. Shortly this group will indirectly control the Executive and Legislature (which it already controls) and the Judiciary.

Granted the Religious Right is not the Taliban, by Afghan standards. But do keep in mind that many liberals in the USA consider their Christian Evangelicals to be their Taliban........If you don`t believe me, go talk with gay couples and pro-choice women in America......... ``

Abortion is still legal in America. Nobody is burning and beating gays. The debate regarding gays is whether they should enjoy right to marriage.

`` Similarly, in India the BJP took over. And still is sitting at the edge of power. This is despite the fact that India has a secular Constitution and judicial system...........There are more than a few Muslims in India who are scared to death of Modi and Advani............ ``

You have a hard time saying the BJP is worse than the Pakistani Muslim League or PPP.

`` Election of religious political forces is actually seems to be the common trend in Muslim countries, now: Algeria, Iran, Iraq, Turkey are good examples. If elections were held in Egypt and Saudi Arabia, I think religious parties would win. Northern Alliance in Afghanistan are religious (and as bad as Taliban according the RAWA women`s group). In Pakistan, MMA won two provinces, for the first time in history (?).``

MMA victories are due to manipulation by the military. You never acknowledge it.

`` however, Talibanism form of govt. and society has no basis, nor history in Pakistan. Anyone with any understanding of the Pakistani society will know that. Pakistan`s Islam is quite Sufiana at its core. It is Bulleh Shah, not Mullah Omar. Very conservative Islam could appear in Pakistan, though, through external events. So far it has appeared through the following events: ``

You have no qualms training them and equipping them.

`` Another thing that will strengthen such forces is if, ``Liberism`` is forced down the throats of Pakistanis through alliances with the West or by denigrating religious parties. Luckily, unlike the Arab and Turkish world, religious parties in Pakistan have been allowed to compete openly. Do keep in mind that while you (and I) may love the West, most Pakistanis are very Pakistan-centric. They have never been outside Pakistan.........And about 11% of the population supports rleigious parties....... ``

Religious parties have no influence among Baluchis, Sindhis, most of Mohajhirs and Pathan nationalists. They are a foil against secular political parties and ethnic nationalists.

`` So, let the society evolve, without external influences, from outside Paksitan (be they American or Saudi). It may evolve in the direciton you want, or it may not evolve in that direction. You (and I) have left the country and have voted with your feet. After that, it is up to the Pakistanis living there, and I think it is incorrect to start preaching to them on whom they should elect and not elect...............And on whether they should be proud to be Pakistanis or ashamed of being Pakistanis........... ``

By the same logic you could not criticize internal course of events in India or America.

Re: # 442

Romair,

You are forgetting two fundamental facts:

1. Western and Indian mullahs are not the same as the Islamic or Pakistani mullahs. Unlike Islamic and Pakistani mullahs, Western and Indian mullahs don’t try to shove their interpretation of religion down everybody’s throat.

2. When lost an election, a peaceful transfer of power to the winner. Once in power, Pakistani mullahs are highly unlikely to do that. In fact, once in power, Pakistani mullahs will so quickly and so radically suffocate everyone in Pakistan that people like you, me, and Haroon will not have time to cry, “mommy.”

That is precisely the dilemma and the danger Pakistan is facing today...

``This is known as the `law of abrogation`.``

Urstruly, will probably know the exact answer but it seems to me that the so-called law of abrogation pertained to Mosaic or Christian laws. Those laws or ``Sharias`` were deemed to be void by Mohammad as God had willed to complete the doctrine of The Religion (Allah`s religion/Abrahamic religion) with Quran. Quran had become the final, complete and Only source of doctrine.

I dont think this law of abrogation has anything to do with precedence within Quranic verses based on the chronology of their revelation.

#447 by haroonellahi on August 3, 2005 4:20pm PT


Arjun, why don`t you visit Pakistan? Be my guest. As in, it shall be a `Know thy enemy` trip too and perhaps a life-changing event. :)


no thanks...

I`d rather visit Nepal and Sri Lanka and Afghanistan.. I`ve always found afghans easy to get along with.. no chip on their shoulder.. unlike pakis for whom it`s always about kashmir and how big bad india is keeping them from their manifest destiny.....

in any case, a paki visa stamp on my passport isn`t a good career move when you want to get back into the DoD business...guaranteed knock on your clearance..

now care to answer the questions about how it`s never pakiland`s fault....

Is this true?

David Warren is a Canadian newspaper columnist. In today`s Ottawa Citizen, he says some disturbing things about Islam, which if true explain a historical basis of why Muslims in the West sing praises of pluralism and sing praises of sharia when in majority. http://www.davidwarrenonline.com/

Excerpt:

``Rather than say this myself, let me quote Dr. Patrick Sookhdeo, the ``traditionalist`` Anglican who directs the Institute for the Study of Islam and Christianity in London. He found himself recently trying to explain the crazy truth to a journalist who asked him about violent passages in the Koran, which Islamists quote constantly. ``Is there no part of the Koran which modifies these violent texts in the way that we would say our New Testament modifies the Old Testament?``

Dr. Sookhdeo: ``In fact the reverse is true. ... All the peaceful passages that are enjoined on Muslims occur in the chapters written at Mecca. They are tolerant toward Jews and Christians. But when Muhammad gets to Medina and sets up his city/religious state, the tone towards other groups changes rapidly. The statements about slaying the pagans and killing the Jews and others occur there. Now in Islamic interpretation, all passages that are revealed later take precedence over those revealed earlier. This is known as the `law of abrogation`.``

I quote this because it succinctly presents the one intractable fact that has prevented me from completing my own book manuscript, on ``Wrestling with Islam``. I am myself stuck, like Mr. Blair, in that modern Western headspace, delineated by President Bush when he said, ``Islam is a religion of peace.`` Well, yes, that is true: but only if you concede that the word ``peace`` means radically different things in the Islamic and Christian (or, ``Western``) traditions.

Each tradition is internally consistent. But the two start from nearly contrary premises about the nature of God, or Allah, and this leads to often opposite views on what is right and good and true. These are differences that have absolutely nothing to do with ``racial profiling``, and everything to do with ``what makes us tick``.

The Muslim conception of Allah is, in fact, much closer to classical Greek ideas of an omnipotent deity, than to ours of one who can agree to be crucified. Every notion of compassion turns on that point -- and ditto, ``tolerance``, ``forgiveness``, ``generosity`` and the like. ``Multiculturalism`` and ``cultural relativism`` are themselves perversions of an essentially Christian message; just as the gratuitous slaughter of civilians is a perversion of the Islamic message.``

Arjun, why don`t you visit Pakistan? Be my guest. As in, it shall be a `Know thy enemy` trip too and perhaps a life-changing event. :)

#445 by haroonellahi on August 3, 2005 3:38pm PT


The U.S invasion of Afghanistan has isolated the Paasthun population of Afghanistan, who constitute to roughly about 55% of the population in the nation.


Aww...your concern for the afghans is touching..wonder why we didn`t see it when the Pakistan created taliban was shoved down the throats of the afghan people...And in case you think the afghan pashtuns love you, think again...my experience, entirely anecdotal, is the opposite.. the brothers who run one afghan kabab place here in northern virginia hate paki gut...



Their insecurity translates into the insecurity of our Pathan brethren living in NWFP and other parts of Pakistan, which subsequently led to the rise of the M.M.A in NWFP.


Yup..when the paki junta elects an ally of the taliban to power in two major provinces of pakiland, it`s someone else`s fault...the pakis are never to blame for anything..If the brit-pakis blow themselves up and their fellow countrymen, blame the policies of the british government... If more than half the paki junta supports a mass murderer like Osama Bin Laden, it`s because they have some grievance..

Thank you Romair! Very well said!

The U.S invasion of Afghanistan has isolated the Paasthun population of Afghanistan, who constitute to roughly about 55% of the population in the nation. They have been left out in the cold by the power-sharing process and are looking more towards their brethren in NWFP, Pakistan. Their insecurity translates into the insecurity of our Pathan brethren living in NWFP and other parts of Pakistan, which subsequently led to the rise of the M.M.A in NWFP.

Godot, the only reason why I support democracy is, that because other systems of goverance, it recognize one crucial element, which the others fail to do so, and that is the nature of power. Power has the uncanny ability to corrupt just about any one except Allah and his prophets (PBUH).

Raw_dust, there are many friends of mine who are silent-readers, who if you people found out the identities of, would be quite amazed. Any hows, the bottom line is that we chose the democratic system of government in `47 and we have tried to maintain it, even though we have had many hickups along the way. I am highly optimistic that the current tehsil, union, and district nazim elections being contested in Pakistan will be done in an egalitarian manner, and they will set the precedent for the planned 2007 elections.

Raw_dust: are you being sarcastic or are you serious? If the latter, appreacite your comment :)

Re# 442

``This is paradox of democracy. And there is no way around it. It can happen anywhere, i.e. what if groups that one does not agree with get elected and can isolate other groups, after getting elected.``


Romair`s calling the possibility of constitutional-religous-fascism -``isolating other groups``. very nicely understated.