Pakistan’s Choice

Free trade with India would naturally benefit Pakistan. I think there will be some sort of free-trade agreement within the next 6 to 12 months.

And for those who live in a fool`s paradise, remain in it, the real world does not want you.

re: trade with India: Pak says No until K problem solved
Here is a gem from Pakis:
http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=431893
(``With India, free trade and investment ... Has to move in tandem with progress on overall relations with the two countries, and the main issue is ... Kashmir,`` Aziz said during an official visit to Hong Kong.(
This puppet PM does not realize that Pak is losing out if it does not have free trade with India. Someone in another forum talked about Srilanka`s free trade with India and how it has taken off, despite past animosities.
Problem is: Pak is an ideological state, much like former Soviet Union, Yugaslavia, Prussia and will likely meet the fate these nations met. Ideological states do not last long. It would surprise readers a nation not on the map today viz Prussia, lasted 200 years.
Who is this Aziz guy kidding.
Another 10 years and Pak will come grovelling to India for free trade. India can then tell Pak to Fukc off.
Sridhar

re: Romair`s post
(The main issues in Pakistan, at the moment, are a lack of skill-sets..)
Romair must be kidding.
Pakis are very skilled.
Skilled at:
1. Illegally immigrating to other countries
2. Repainting North Korean and Chinese missiles and calling them there own, after going thr` proper ceremony of dedication, giving them a new name (Ghori, ghazni etc etc).
3. at IT ie International Terrorism.
4. at making nukes cladestinely and then exporting them cladestinely to rogue regimes like North Korea, Iran.
The list goes on and on.
Gosh, Pakis are very skilled!
Sridhar

re:#580 by rsribhar
(Just because this rsridhar character attempts to walk on two legs, pretends to have a brain, and is extremely proud of his South Indian name, he is really totally different from me. Of course, I am not responsible for any debts, promises, or contracts incurred by this primate)

If only name could endow u with some brains, u would have one by now. Carry on with the charade. I do not mind u having a similar sounding nic. It only amuses me.
You only come out as a person of dubious character, vilifying me in one post and then trying to make amends in the very next.
Perhaps a typical Paki trait.
Sridhar

Mr. Jinnah`s presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
August 11, 1947

---

Mr. President, Ladies and Gentlemen!
I cordially thank you, with the utmost sincerity, for the honour you have conferred upon me - the greatest honour that is possible to confer - by electing me as your first President. I also thank those leaders who have spoken in appreciation of my services and their personal references to me. I sincerely hope that with your support and your co-operation we shall make this Constituent Assembly an example to the world. The Constituent Assembly has got two main functions to perform. The first is the very onerous and responsible task of framing the future constitution of Pakistan and the second of functioning as a full and complete sovereign body as the Federal Legislature of Pakistan. We have to do the best we can in adopting a provisional constitution for the Federal Legislature of Pakistan. You know really that not only we ourselves are wondering but, I think, the whole world is wondering at this unprecedented cyclonic revolution which has brought about the clan of creating and establishing two independent sovereign Dominions in this sub-continent. As it is, it has been unprecedented; there is no parallel in the history of the world. This mighty sub-continent with all kinds of inhabitants has been brought under a plan which is titanic, unknown, unparalleled. And what is very important with regards to it is that we have achieved it peacefully and by means of an evolution of the greatest possible character.

Dealing with our first function in this Assembly, I cannot make any well-considered pronouncement at this moment, but I shall say a few things as they occur to me. The first and the foremost thing that I would like to emphasize is this: remember that you are now a sovereign legislative body and you have got all the powers. It, therefore, places on you the gravest responsibility as to how you should take your decisions. The first observation that I would like to make is this: You will no doubt agree with me that the first duty of a government is to maintain law and order, so that the life, property and religious beliefs of its subjects are fully protected by the State.

The second thing that occurs to me is this: One of the biggest curses from which India is suffering - I do not say that other countries are free from it, but, I think our condition is much worse - is bribery and corruption. That really is a poison. We must put that down with an iron hand and I hope that you will take adequate measures as soon as it is possible for this Assembly to do so.

Black-marketing is another curse. Well, I know that blackmarketeers are frequently caught and punished. Judicial sentences are passed or sometimes fines only are imposed. Now you have to tackle this monster, which today is a colossal crime against society, in our distressed conditions, when we constantly face shortage of food and other essential commodities of life. A citizen who does black-marketing commits, I think, a greater crime than the biggest and most grievous of crimes. These blackmarketeers are really knowing, intelligent and ordinarily responsible people, and when they indulge in black-marketing, I think they ought to be very severely punished, because the entire system of control and regulation of foodstuffs and essential commodities, and cause wholesale starvation and want and even death.

The next thing that strikes me is this: Here again it is a legacy which has been passed on to us. Along with many other things, good and bad, has arrived this great evil, the evil of nepotism and jobbery. I want to make it quite clear that I shall never tolerate any kind of jobbery, nepotism or any any influence directly of indirectly brought to bear upon me. Whenever I will find that such a practice is in vogue or is continuing anywhere, low or high, I shall certainly not countenance it.

I know there are people who do not quite agree with the division of India and the partition of the Punjab and Bengal. Much has been said against it, but now that it has been accepted, it is the duty of everyone of us to loyally abide by it and honourably act according to the agreement which is now final and binding on all. But you must remember, as I have said, that this mighty revolution that has taken place is unprecedented. One can quite understand the feeling that exists between the two communities wherever one community is in majority and the other is in minority. But the question is, whether it was possible or practicable to act otherwise than what has been done, A division had to take place. On both sides, in Hindustan and Pakistan, there are sections of people who may not agree with it, who may not like it, but in my judgement there was no other solution and I am sure future history will record is verdict in favour of it. And what is more, it will be proved by actual experience as we go on that was the only solution of India`s constitutional problem. Any idea of a united India could never have worked and in my judgement it would have led us to terrific disaster. Maybe that view is correct; maybe it is not; that remains to be seen. All the same, in this division it was impossible to avoid the question of minorities being in one Dominion or the other. Now that was unavoidable. There is no other solution. Now what shall we do? Now, if we want to make this great State of Pakistan happy and prosperous, we should wholly and solely concentrate on the well-being of the people, and especially of the masses and the poor. If you will work in co-operation, forgetting the past, burying the hatchet, you are bound to succeed. If you change your past and work together in a spirit that everyone of you, no matter to what community he belongs, no matter what relations he had with you in the past, no matter what is his colour, caste or creed, is first, second and last a citizen of this State with equal rights, privileges, and obligations, there will be on end to the progress you will make.

I cannot emphasize it too much. We should begin to work in that spirit and in course of time all these angularities of the majority and minority communities, the Hindu community and the Muslim community, because even as regards Muslims you have Pathans, Punjabis, Shias, Sunnis and so on, and among the Hindus you have Brahmins, Vashnavas, Khatris, also Bengalis, Madrasis and so on, will vanish. Indeed if you ask me, this has been the biggest hindrance in the way of India to attain the freedom and independence and but for this we would have been free people long long ago. No power can hold another nation, and specially a nation of 400 million souls in subjection; nobody could have conquered you, and even if it had happened, nobody could have continued its hold on you for any length of time, but for this. Therefore, we must learn a lesson from this. You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State. As you know, history shows that in England, conditions, some time ago, were much worse than those prevailing in India today. The Roman Catholics and the Protestants persecuted each other. Even now there are some States in existence where there are discriminations made and bars imposed against a particular class. Thank God, we are not starting in those days. We are starting in the days where there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State. The people of England in course of time had to face the realities of the situation and had to discharge the responsibilities and burdens placed upon them by the government of their country and they went through that fire step by step. Today, you might say with justice that Roman Catholics and Protestants do not exist; what exists now is that every man is a citizen, an equal citizen of Great Britain and they are all members of the Nation.

Now I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State.

Well, gentlemen, I do not wish to take up any more of your time and thank you again for the honour you have done to me. I shall always be guided by the principles of justice and fairplay without any, as is put in the political language, prejudice or ill-will, in other words, partiality or favouritism. My guiding principle will be justice and complete impartiality, and I am sure that with your support and co-operation, I can look forward to Pakistan becoming one of the greatest nations of the world.

I have received a message from the United States of America addressed to me. It reads:

I have the honour to communicate to you, in Your Excellency`s capacity as President of the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan, the following message which I have just received from the Secretary of State of the United States:
On the occasion of of the first meeting of the Constituent Assembly for Pakistan, I extend to you and to the members of the Assembly, the best wishes of the Government and the people of the United States for the successful conclusion of the great work you are about to undertake.

---

Hmmm.. I`ve been out of the city for the past few days and have not been interacting. Seems as the debate here has ended. Ciao

Ballu Khan Sahib #609, {``Pakitanis have to make a choice now............they are in a great danger of letting Taliban goons run the country......... ``}

Ballu Sahib, you are definitely right about this one. As you know, Pakis have now been practicing with suicide bombing. Indians better watch it. The next suicide bomber could be good old Mushy, or a reasonable facsimile, with a nuke strapped on his back. :)

Salim

You are right when you said pakistan has to clean its act and to reform its society. However you are wrong when you said, ``No intelligent person can blame India for Pakistan’s myopic and incompetent policies, both foreign and domestic, and for its miseries`` as every student of International Relations know nuclear arms race, security situation and balance of power can have davastating impact on domestic and foreign policy of a country. As far Indias emergance as a `new darling of west` is concerned it is not because India is a seculer democracy (infact it is a Hindu-Seculer democracy) and educated and professional work force on the other hand for west India is a big and cheap market. They want to get in to indian market in order to exploit it for their own benefit. As China is not allowing western powers to have a free ride therefore in order to counter dimishing profits for their economies these imperial scavangers are looking for new soft targets and India provides them with a perfact opportunity.

#610 by premwalla

[The chunky one in the middle with the ``I can`t believe I just farted`` look.
The fat one on the right saying ``I use a heavy duty one.``
The one up front on the left, with the pretty teeth, is Yousuf Youhana]

ROTFL!! I tell you Salim, you are a riot!

#608, Balloo Khan Sahib,

{``Is it an all female team or are there a few males thrown in to correct the misconception that in Pakistan, there is no gender bias?``}

They are mostly females. Some doubts about a few:

The chunky one in the middle with the ``I can`t believe I just farted`` look.
The fat one on the right saying ``I use a heavy duty one.``
The one up front on the left, with the pretty teeth, is Yousuf Youhana

Pakitanis have to make a choice now............they are in a great danger of letting Taliban goons run the country.........

``Now, religious figures who once trained Taliban adepts in their madrassas have become powerful politicians.

``The people who created the Taliban are now effectively running half of Pakistan,`` said Samina Ahmed, an Islamabad representative from the International Crisis Group, a research organization based in Brussels.

Many Pakistanis worry that the MMA is trying to re-create Taliban rule. In June, the North-West Frontier assembly passed a law allowing religious ombudsmen to fine or jail people for conducting ``entertainment shows`` near mosques and ``indecent behavior at public places.``

Qazi Hussein Ahmed, who heads the dominant party in the MMA coalition, said that his group had criticized some extreme Taliban practices and that terrorist attacks on innocent civilians were prohibited by Islam. But he also said Kashmiri militants were justified in their ``holy war`` against India, and he implied the same of Taliban insurgents fighting the U.S.-backed government in Afghanistan.``

#606 by one-world

[Whatever it is they look happy]

Is it an all female team or are there a few males thrown in to correct the misconception that in Pakistan, there is no gender bias?

This last one about Karachi seems to be a toothpaste commercial. The beautiful teeth are a result of the pure clean drinking water that Karachiites enjoy.

Whatever it is they look happy

Another KHI beauty

Karachiites enjoying nightlife

Karachiites enjoying nightlife

#599 is for cayenne. Maybe the quality is missing, but progress is in the right direction. What we lack in quality we make up with violence.

Here is a picture of Karachi citizens relaxing in the streets

Now, a hard working immigrant to Karachi from Faisalabad.

Here is a picture of some kind of temple or place of warship

Here is a better one:

Here are some images of Karachi, my hometown in Pakiland.

#595 by Ajeya on August 5, 2005 10:07pm PT in reference to #578 by Romair
{``pet terrorists by financing it with money earned through ventures involving India reeks of an Al-Queda - style operation. I hope that the FBI is on your tail. ``}

Ajeya,
Not only is the FBI on his tail, it has it under microscopic surveillance. Also, Captain Romair is being investigated by the interfaith shinterfaith police for attempting to start his own Koresh/Waco/Jonestown type of a ``religion.``

Salim

#578 by Romair

[This is where the best outlet is to bring in people from India (who by the way, actually get paid less than Pakistanis). ]

I would suggest that you forget about India. Supporting the butchering of innocent Hindu men, women and children by your pet terrorists by financing it with money earned through ventures involving India reeks of an Al-Queda - style operation.

I hope that the FBI is on your tail.

Hello capt clueless...didn`t you tell us the sipah-e-sahaba was a terrorist group? So how come El-presidente has a catch-and-release program for these terrorists?

Musharraf`s Contradictory Crackdown on Radicals
Pakistani Groups Increase Power Despite a Ban

By N.C. Aizenman
Washington Post Foreign Service
Friday, August 5, 2005; A09

LANDI ARBAB, Pakistan -- As Pakistani security forces rounded up hundreds of suspected Islamic militants last week in the wake of the bomb attacks in London, Ibrahim Qazmi, a slightly built 28-year-old cleric with a wispy black beard, leaned on a pillow in his herbal remedy shop in northwest Pakistan and smiled skeptically.

In 2001, shortly after the Sept. 11 attacks, Qazmi and scores of his associates in Sipah-i-Sahaba, or Army of the Prophet`s Followers, were arrested in a crackdown announced by Gen. Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan`s president, who vowed to crush the network of radical Islamic groups that had flourished in the country for years.

But just 10 days later, Qazmi said, he and the others were released without charges. Although their group was banned for fomenting sectarian violence, they simply changed its name and revived it. Their top leader was elected to the National Assembly, and Qazmi was elected to the legislature of the North-West Frontier Province, now dominated by fundamentalist Islamic parties preparing to establish a morals police force.

``So you see, despite the ban, we have only gotten stronger,`` Qazmi said with a chuckle.

Janab Mohtaram SA Sahib,
Aap ki inayat he :)
Salim

Re: # 591

Salim Saheb,

Zarra nawaji ke liye shukriya.

SA

Dakkin Asia Huzoor,

Janab,

Meri khushi aap se baateN kar ke.

Salim.

Thank you, Salim saheb

Southasian #585 and #586, {``Re: # 584 So you meant the no. 2 there? haha``}

That`s right. That`s right. :)

You are very perceptive. :)

Salim

#587, Arjun responding to Romair`s #578 {``You don`t know what you`re talking about...do you even know how much good people make in India....``}

That`s right. The recent story about Tata Consulting trying to go into a joint venture with a Paki firm and open a training site in Lahore is due to this disparity in wages. Indian salaries for IT have skyrocketed - thus making Pakistan a welcome resource for trained and cheap labor.

``If you speak the truth, you only have to say it once.``

Salim

#578 by Romair on August 5, 2005 8:06am PT


This is where the best outlet is to bring in people from India (who by the way, actually get paid less than Pakistanis).


You don`t know what you`re talking about...do you even know how much good people make in India....some of my friends who have been working for infosys are now $$ millionaires....not Rupee, $$...

Re: # 584 So you meant the no. 2 there? haha

Re: # 584 So you meant the no. 2 there? haha

Southasian #583,
As I understand it, the word ``Mian`` in Lucknow and other areas of UP refers to several things:
1. Mian can refer to young noble lad - e.g. son of landlord
2. Mian can refer to a woman`s husband - e.g Un ke miyan ne yeh kaha
3. Mian can be used affectionately or sarcastically to denote overly polite - e.g. kiya haal hen Miyan Sahib ke?
4. People call their parrots Mithoo MiaN

I read that in Gujarat, Mian is used by Hindus to refer to Muslims.

Salim

Re: # 582 Chauhan Saheb, Could you tell me about the tehzib of this word Mian please? I hope its not derogatory.

rsridhar,
I thought that Indians, especially Hindus, were very tolerant and provided refuge to those in need. Several days ago, I publicly apologized to you, on one of these FP boards, that I am sorry for using a nic similar to yours. I also explained my reason for doing that - circumventing Chowk Staff censors who want to muzzle my viewpoints. I also stated that I selected your name, because of its honorable status and friendliness.
Nevertheless, you chose to ignore my appeal and have resorted to defensive and arrogant insults. Too bad, BHAINS KE AGE BEEN BAJANA .....:)

Salim

Sri miyan,
You should feel honored that someone would want to have their nic resemble your name.
Nothing sinister mister. But then, I never realized you were a jihadist when it came to your own name.
Salim

#559 by rsridhar on August 4, 2005 4:33pm PT
re: this rsribhar character
Just for records, this rsribhar character is someone totally different from me.
Sridhar


NOTICE TO ALL.

Just because this rsridhar character attempts to walk on two legs, pretends to have a brain, and is extremely proud of his South Indian name, he is really totally different from me. Of course, I am not responsible for any debts, promises, or contracts incurred by this primate. :)

Salim.

#560 by rsridhar on August 4, 2005 4:48pm PT
re:#519 by rsribhar
Salim Miyan,
``Any blue-blooded Hiindu would say ``Jalim.``
Perhaps one without a brain!
Even a south indian like me, who grew up in Delhi watching Bollywood movies, learnt enough Urdu to know how to pronounce not just Zalim but also words like Zakhm, Zameer etc etc. Only u morons think your language is the greatest and nobody else can speak it.
BTW, Salim miyan, your assuming a name similar to my own is in bad taste.
Sridhar``}

Sridhar,
You get an ``A`` in Urdu diction. Now, get yourself that brain you mentioned.

BTW, you are not entirely correct. The majority of Pakis cannot speak Urdu correctly - yes the Urdu language is one of the richest in the world, because it borrows at will from Hindustani, Arabic, Farsi, and even some Turkish.

So, having a name sounding like yours is in bad taste. I will defer to you on that. I never thought that your name was in bad taste, but if you say so ...

Also, Sri, I am not your MIAN. :)
Salim.

Mantolive #566: Thanks for the info......

I have done a great detail of research in this area, regarding Pakistan. In fact, that is all I have been doing for around six months. Different sectors have different applications that are in use, in Pakistan (and in the rest of the world). The Pakistani financial sector (banks, insurance companies, etc.) are primarily Oracle. With some SAS. And some little known products from Singapore etc. However, Oracle is leading and will continue to lead, in Pakistan, in this space, due to various reasons (too detailed to mention here). Specifically now with their purchase of PeopleSoft.

The main issues in Pakistan, at the moment, are a lack of skill-sets. There is hardly anyone trained to implement these products. However, the govt. and the various private companies, due to the boom in the economy, now have a lot of money to spend. Anyone in Pakistan, with even intermediate level expertise in the ERP products, can make a fortune (by Pakistani standards). This is where the best outlet is to bring in people from India (who by the way, actually get paid less than Pakistanis).

I am, personally, not an Oracle person, technically. However, all my research indicates that Oracle is the best shot in Pakistan, specifically in the financial space..........

This thread promises to touch 1000 now!

Re: # 574


That too makes sense....

Shankar has proved to be quite the Clarence Darrow then...

Manto says,

The fact of the matter is that we (Rozaiba and I) are the true inheritors of the progressive spirit of Iqbal`s message ... much better than Iqbal Academy or people
like you who selectively quote him for your own ends.

So lets see what these true inheritors have to say about Iqbal.

Manto on another Board writes,

`` Rozaiba...
Tone it down with the Bala-bashing man... remember Basant annually... wink. We don`t want to be permanently banned.
But great points as usual... Iqbal was a man of his times... most of it sadly is irrelevant to our present condition. ``The true end of government`` is in my opinion a much more relevant book of ideology for Pakistan than Iqbal`s philosophy. ``

And the true inheritors accuse others of ``selectively qoute him``.


btw, those great points that Manto is agreeing are

`` However, let`s take this from the reference of ol man Bala. Ol man Bala is an Indian poet. The Mahmud`s and Taimur`s have pillaged regions that were part of his `hindustan` and run off elsewhere - unlike say the Mughal dynasty etc.

What fascination is he trying to arouse in the Indian Muslim using such figures?

The problem is that glorifying such figures is part of the larger attempt to ignite pan-islamic delusions. It is these delusions that convulate the perceptions of history. ``

For more truths of Manto

http://naseeb.com/naseebvibes/talkbacks.php?tbSortBy=&newOffset=10&start=1&aid=3787#talkback

Re: # 573 Sorry, I thought he put you on a kind of Monkey Trial here. I think Haroon should be more worried about this lacuna rather than worrying about what the teacher said about Eid. However, I have no intention of raking up the issue again.

Re: # 572

What different reason...

I mentioned it for the same... by not teaching kids evolution (After the 1980s atleast) we have kept them illiterate and out of sync with the rest of the world...

Haroon I am sure did study evolution as did I ... given our privileged backgrounds.

Just read a bit about the `Monkey Trial` Manto just mentioned. Interesting how an Islamiyat teacher would react to Darwin`s theory. I know here he mentioned it for a different reason.

re#10

Repeating my reply to one khansaab in another thread. This is apt for haroonellahi aswell

Alas, yet another Paki living in self delusion! One never ceases to bump into these diehard types. It is the “we ruled over you” obsession gripping the likes of you that has already taken Pakistan down the drain over the years. Always trying to flex its muscles, thinking that India is just a walk over ( agli namaz Dilli ki Ja’ama masjid mein parhengay ), getting defeated, nay, ousted, routed and dismembered, yet ready to go for another round, like the famous defeated pehalwan who is forever dreaming of chitt karaoing the one that floored him. One just wonders how long you guys are going to get beaten, aren’t you ever going to stop? We are told that in your military academies the gentleman cadets have to take an oath that they shall avenge the defeat of 1971. Ab buss karo! Khansaheb,you have become fat on crumbs thrown at you by the Saudis and other Arabs, and we suppose therefrom this masti . But for how long are you going to keep begging these Sheiks? You renamed Lyallpur as Faisalabad to express your gratitude to the Saudis ( how subservient a qaum can get?), you have named a stadium in Lahore after Gaddafi during a visit when he is said to have come close to the IndoPak border and shouted abuses and spat at India. Remember, the Arab oil is running out, so the Arabs are not going to indulge in a terrorist state for long ( Pakis are suspected of involvement in terror attacks in Arab countries, maybe as a mark of gratitude to the Arabs for their largesses?).
The names of Ghazni, Ghori etc. that you and your ilk keep repeating, for heaven’s sake, cannot be appropriated by you as your own. Your forefathers were Indians and Hindus at that (your mother tongue which is either Punjabi, Sindhi or Avadhi/Bhojpuri/brajwasi(Urdu) clearly establishes that) and not these foreign raiders, looters and rapists. You are us. Your real forefathers also partook of cow urine, so you have it in your blood as much as the Indians !Your great great grandmothers, great great great grand mothers and great great great great grand mothers ( go back for 1200 years, as per your count) were raped by these outsiders and their progeny changed their religion ( obviously not voluntarily). So how much ever you try to appropriate to yourself the ancestry of the attacking hordes from Central Asia, you are nothing but Indians who turned Paki.

As far as defecating crowds, a friend from Central Asia still remembers that he cannot get out of his system the stench of human dung he experienced during his visit to Karachi recently.
For your kind information, as per the latest UN statistics, India’s per capita income is USD 550 where as Pakistan’s is USD 480.

Re: # 566

Romair,

While I am not sure the nature of your investment in Pakistan... Prime Minister Aziz visited Malaysia and decided to go SAP route for business management software... The Pakistan Software Export Board is now heavily investing in training its personnel in SAP... Oracle I am afraid is old news though it has massive implementation in the accounting sector.

BTW... it is good to see that the Jehadi spirit has dissipated making room for such secular endeavors as education ... etc

My advice to haroon and other like minded fellows... read what Shankar said and then read up on the famous Monkey Trial from 1925... to see how great nations ought to progress...

The problem with Mr Elahi is that he doesn`t care to read what one says but mouths off on what he imagines they are saying. Now he is quoting ``Goerring`` to prove a point about those he doesn`t agree with. Perhaps he doesn`t know who Goerring was...

May I relieve you Mr Elahi of the burden you have unnecessarily taken upon yourself. The word elite used in post 10 was very much a sarcastic note. I define the word elite quite differently .... to me its a positive word.... You are merely what I call hereditary rich... while your friend Don is the scion of the old order, probably without the noble values that old order might have carried.

The beauty of the Haveli is that more than 5000 people come to that party and I happen to be personally friends with some of Mr Yusuf Sallahuddin`s nephews. Knowing the ``Khandan-e-Iqbal``, I would not describe them as necessarily belonging to the old order of the hereditary rich. Iqbal was very much middle class and Mian Sallahuddin was an inner city strongman... they are to Lahore basically what Italians and the Irish are to New York. There is no bar on the middle class becoming elite or rich.. which is why I like the term Bourgeoisie better... the issue is not with the business class, professionals etc making it big...


Escapist,

Both Rozaiba and I are much bigger fans of Ol` Man Bala who we admire for his Ijtehadi reformist thought. We criticise him for being too ambigious in his poetry (but NOT in his philosophy) and giving you, the kind who abused him during his life time, reason to own him as their own... The fact of the matter is that we (Rozaiba and I) are the true inheritors of the progressive spirit of Iqbal`s message ... much better than Iqbal Academy or people
like you who selectively quote him for your own ends.

-YLH

Re: # 546

arjun_M,

You are a noble descendant of Shivaji...

You carry on his noble tradition of giving these Paki katlus regular kick-in-the butts...when they spew bs on Chowk...

Keep up the good work, pal;

My perspicacity says its Haroon`s way of saying ...
``I.m sorry I was an arrogant jerk``

I`ll be leaving beloved Bombay in a few hrs.
I`m PROUD at the way millions of Bombayites took the freak monsoon flood in their stride....
And STILL...MILLIONS of them reported to work everyday!!

If its reflective of our nations` ``WORK ETHIC``..
I have no DOUBT that this Holy Land will be a super-power in a few decades..
(Hopefully in my lifetime)

CHATTRAPATI SHIVAJI MAHARAJ KI JAY!!!!!

Goodbye (for now)...
my beloved Chowkies!!:)))

Godot #various: You had mentioned you are an Oracle consultant. For the past four months, I have, with a couple of Pakistani and Indian acquitances, been planning a software company in Pakistan. We think this is the time to get in on the ground floor for a partnership between Indian and Pakistani companies......It will be heavily Oracle focused. If a couple of things work out, I will go back to Pakistan..........Would you be willing to go back, and join us? i.e. are you willing to walk the walk for the betterment of Pakistan.............

Godot #511: Yes, I think on the whole we do agree, on most things.

You have an interesting bio. Quite the self-made person. Which is impressive. I thought you were my age. Seems like you are quite a bit older. Perhaps ten years........I was able to pick up the fact that you have not spend too much of your life in Pakistan. This was quite obvious to me, from your comments and your article..........Which is why I asked you......Apparently only ten years, and that too as a kid. And in Karachi only.....``Since then, barring four short visits to Pakistan and as many to Canada, I have lived in America, my adopted country, continuously.``

Two points I would like to highlight:

- Please study the history of Sufism in Punjab and Sind. Study it in great detail. Study the historical cultural development of Islam, within the boundaries of the Punjabi and Sindhi environmetns. Study the works of the Bulleh Shah, Shah Latif, Shah Hussian, Sachal Sarmast, etc. etc. Go deep into them........

- Also if you get the chance, try to live in rural Pakistan for a year or two. Outside of Lahore, Karachi, Islamabad - which are all artificial Pakistan. Rural Pakistan is the hearland of Pakistan..........Anyone who has not lived there doesn`t understand Pakistan........

After that, you will realize why mullah-type Islam can never establish itself in Pakistan. And why over hundreds of years, it has never established itself. The only successess it has had is when Pakistan govt. has tried to tie itself too closely with the USA foreign policies, in its various adventures in the region.........Please keep in mind that Sheeda Tulli (Sheikh Rashid) - a bachelor who is famous for his various affairs with film actresses - alone, won as many NA seats (two) as every single religious party in Pakistan, combined, was able to win......After 54 years history of MMA, this is all it was able to achieve in Pakistan (2 seats), despite the fact that Pakistan`s more secular govts. have been massively corrupt and incompetent........And as I keep saying, had the USA not attacked Afghanistan in such a manner, it would still be at 2..........

This is despite the fact that during that time, Pakistan was surrounded on all sides by religious govts. - there was a religious govt. in Afghanistan (Taliban), one in Iran (Khatami) and one in India (BJP).........

This is why mullahs don`t scare me, as far as Pakistan is concerned. And why I think they are only a mere nuisance that will disappear the moment a competent non-mullah/non-feudal govt. appears. Anyone who understands the heartland of Pakistan, knows mullahs have no basis there.......They will only appear as a reaction to the USA, or if people are completely fed up with feudal parties (even after that, the mullahs stay will be quite short-lived). Which is why I am against Pakistan doing everything the USA wants..........It should only do some things, and never against the wishes of its own awam.....

Go to Data Darbar and see the crowd. Go to concerts of Abida Parveen singing Bulleh Shah. And see how mast people get. Go listen to Attaullah Niazi singing in an outdoor concert in backwards Mianwali. Go to any of the urs and see people drunk on bhang, dancing away, taking Allah`s name......that is the ethos and Islamic core of an overwheling % of Pakistan. Quite a bit different from the Taliban......

The Quran and science

On the mountains being like paperweights:

Q. 16:15 And He has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest IT [the earth] should shake with you; and rivers and roads; that ye may guide yourselves; Y. Ali



Q. 31:10 He created the heavens without any pillars THAT YE CAN SEE; He set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and He scattered through it beasts of all kinds. We send down rain from the sky, and produce on the earth every kind of noble creature, in pairs. Pickthall



On the sky falling on your head:

Q. 22:65 Do you not see that Allah has made subservient to you whatsoever is in the earth and the ships running in the sea by His command? And He withholds the heaven FROM FALLING ON THE EARTH except with His permission; most surely Allah is Compassionate, Merciful to men. Shakir



On the merits of the Flat Earth Society (with the mountains as pegs):

Q. 88:20 Nor even how the earth has been FLATTENED out?


Q. 78:6-7 Have WE not made the earth AS A BED, And the mountains AS PEGS? Sher Ali



On Allah building the heavens without any cracks:

Q. 50:6-7 What, have they not beheld heaven above them, how We have built it, and decked it out fair, AND IT HAS NO CRACKS? And the earth -- We stretched it forth, and cast on it firm mountains, and We caused to grow therein of every joyous kind ... Arberry



More later....

:-)

Re: # 513

Mr Elahi,

Since I have so RUDELY invited myself to Chowk....

{{Introduction of Chemistry, Physics, Liberal Art Subjects, non-Islamic literature, and `Civic Studies` co-existing peacefully with Islamic studies should be the norm.}}

Just how da` f*ck does Pakistani Islam EXIST PEACEFULLY with Science...

The first Paki scientist who says
``Gee...looks like Darwin`s Survival of the Fittest
or the ``Theory of Evolution`` makes sense..``

He will be arrested for blasphemy. While in jail he will be murdered by a dukkar Paki fellow inmate. That inmate will be given a ``mullah`` pardon for being a valiant mujahadeen of Islam.
And the ``cycle of Paki life``...
will go on & on...
till your blighted nation drowns in the gutter it has dug for itself.

While all you ``islam ka mashoor pehelwans`` are drowning in your own filth...
You can collectively gasp

---

``IT WAS A HINDU_JEWISH_CHRISTIAN_BHUDDIST`` conspiracy!!!

Re: # 511

godot,

{{I may not live in Pakistan anymore and have given up its citizenship, but I do have a great deal of affinity for Pakistan and am a well-wisher of that country.}}

You tell him; kid!!!
...
besides what gives ``his highness`` the right to speak for Pakistan?

He`s just an ISI mole who hi-tailed it out of Amrika, when 911 happened..
(Maybe the FBI has a file on him)
& sought refuge in a rat-hole in Canukistan..

His ``cover strory``...I work for an Indian..
I meet 1000s of Indians everyday,
I know everything about everything...
has been blown to smithereens!

{{. I do not consider Pakistani mullahs to be “the” problem for Pakistan, either. I just shudder at the thought what would follow if they grab power in Pakistan.}}

Trust me...
the army, the ISI & the Azaaaad Kashmiris have been sleeping in the same bed as the mullahs.
Each party has been USING each other, for their OWN shameless agenda

Each side seems to think that ``the other`` isnt the main problem...
they use each other to have an orgy with the innocent awaam of Pakistan...

Yup!
They are the TRUE patriots of Pakistan...
Gee.....the ``smell`` his EVIL patriotism...
wafts all the way to Amrikistan...

Its because of BUTTfakhrs like him...
innocent Pakis are being harrassed in Amrika everyday..

Khuda Hafiz

Re: # 507

{{Hai ram! yeh kya keh rahe ho!!
Mere dil ke huzaar tukde kar ke rakh diye, zalim. Aab mein iss jindagi se kya ummedein rakhun! }}

hahaha!

Since you are in such a self-flagellating mode; my friend...

May I HUMBLY suggest...
its time to SLIT your wrists

If you cant handle profanity like ``F*ck`` & ``s*it``
may I humbly suggest...
leave Chowk & go to your nearest temple & purify your prudish soul

but thanks anyway for the entertainment..
busy shrinks can take a vacation, once in a while,
to beloved Bombay...

& since itsso rainy & miserable in BELOVED Bombay...

its been fun f*cking with dull Northie minds...
like yours

re:#519 by rsribhar
Salim Miyan,
``Any blue-blooded Hiindu would say ``Jalim.``
Perhaps one without a brain!
Even a south indian like me, who grew up in Delhi watching Bollywood movies, learnt enough Urdu to know how to pronounce not just Zalim but also words like Zakhm, Zameer etc etc. Only u morons think your language is the greatest and nobody else can speak it.
BTW, Salim miyan, your assuming a name similar to my own is in bad taste.
Sridhar

re: this rsribhar character
Just for records, this rsribhar character is someone totally different from me.
Sridhar

Haroon,

Thats an intersting point!

Mantolives on some other board was even suggesting to Rozaiba that they should stop criticizing Dr Iqbal (Bala as they say) because it can ban their entry to haveli.

Kitna mauqa shinaas hai.

Manto is our hero.
Manto for president!

Since I am eltisit filth, I will take my Indian guest(s) in eltisit filth, introduce them to eltisit filth, and take them to elitisit parties as well (Why un-elitisit ppl were at the Havali i fail to understand, since they claim to be naik middle class?) and then later interact with the un-eltisit un-filthy Pakistani Chowkis aswell (Mantolives, Hellboundetc). hehe

nahin arjun you definately have to come. Just email me if the scene develops. Ciao.

Cuckoo`s...name sounds like a sardar da dhaba.

I see a great opportunity for indians here...we can create a little competition between manto and haroon for who treats Indians better and exploit the situation to our advantage....dekho, manto offered me Cocoo`s or is it Cucko`s, free trip to Nanakan sahib, oh dholi da naaN bhull giya...a trip to my relative`s villages close to border, atrip to Hiramandi and Anarkalli bazaar..and ..of course duncan donuts...if anyone can up that offer, I am all yours.:-)

Re: # 533
Aslam777 - Since you have an interest in stock markets, and your decision to hold shares that you like forever is in synch with the philosophy of other master investors like Benjamin Graham who was the mentor of Warren Buffet (the world`s most succesful investor), I recommend that you read the book, `The Intelligent Investor: The Definitive Book On Value Investing, Revised Edition by Benjamin Graham`. You will retire as a rich man!

#531 Arjun, I actually want you to visit Pakistan and be my guest. Why don`t you consider the offer? As in, for many Indians and American-of-Indian-origin, it`s a once-in-a-life-time-offer.

---

Haroon bhai...I am glad you did not write last long phrase in bold letters...arjun te pehlaN ee dareya hoyea te tusi uttoN once-a-life-time di ratt layee ay.:-)

Friend, #550 {``BTW, I hope you only study incest and do not go any further.. ``}

Dost, too late, I already married my second cousin. :)

#539 by haroonellahi on August 4, 2005 2:01pm PT

as harimau`s pointed out in the past, that`s a myth...You can check out the history of IIT Kharagpur

Salim #541
Language spoken in Old Delhi and Lucknow areas is somewhere between Pakistan`s arabic Urdu and our Sanskritized hindi. So it contains lot of such words.
BTW, I hope you only study incest and do not go any further..

Godot #543
This is precisely the reason I yelled at shrink to stop instigating the kids. Let kids fight and than make it up. No use in unnecessary instigating them..

#545, {``Arjun, I am going to be in Pakistan for till at least next year`s June,``}

Another unfortunate innocent casualty of 9/11 and the London bombings. Our young hero cannot get a visa immediately.
Perhaps, a recommendation from Jenny McCarthy ...

Hermann Goering famously told an interviewer during his trial at Nuremberg that:

``People don`t want to go to war...But, after all, it`s the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it`s always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it`s a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a parliament or a communist dictatorship...Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to greater danger. It works the same way in any country.``

Just picked that up some where, thought I`d share it!

Arjun, #546 {``In any case, you can search through my posts and see where I`ve expressed a personal loathing of pakis... ``}

I would tend to agree with you. Unfortunately, I cannot make the same claim. :)

Salim

#544 by Aslam777 on August 4, 2005 2:17pm PT

I did qualify that...under the right circumstances...

In any case, you can search through my posts and see where I`ve expressed a personal loathing of pakis...

obviously not a big fan of the jihad support but without using a cliche, i have many pakistani friends..

Arjun, I am going to be in Pakistan for till at least next year`s June, since after that I will be going abroad for college and would visit only in the vacations.

However, for the next 11 months I am mostly going to be in Pakistan(besides my proposed Model United Nations trip to Beijing, Mumbai, and Colombo), so whenever your plan materializes just let me know.

h_ellahi@hotmail.com

Godot..Arjun was just trying to be nice. A visit to Pakistan is ill advised in the post-London bombing world.

If Arjun is talking about accepting an invitation to meet Haroon and Yasser, then Chowk has succeeded in its mission impossible: turn sworn enemies into friends. Pakistan and India do indeed have a bright future together, and Chowk must take a huge credit for it!

Congratulations, Chowk!!!

India`s progress in IT is not because of IITs but because of the proliferation of private engineering colleges in the 1990s. IITs have always been there...but cater to only 2000-3000 students , most of who go abroad. Most of the recruitments made by Indian companies come from humble private engineering colleges like mine - which collectively today produce over 300,000 graduates each year.

Friend #522 {``What urdu! Mardood mein to hindi mein likh raha tha. Zalim is 100% khalis hindi;-) ``}

OK, if you insist, you can have `Zalim` as a 100% Khalis Hindi word. Just to let you know, you used three words - Urdu (Turkish), Mardood (Farsi, I think!), Zalim (100% Arabic from the root word ZLM and associated with Zulum, Mazloom, etc..)

You didn`t know that I was an entymologist. HA HA :) Yes, I study incest.

Salim

#539

premji dropped out of Stanford EE, out of all the big businessmen today ony the Infosys guy Nilekani has an IIT-BTech.

Adi Godrej was a JEE rank No 2, but the preferred to go to MIT.

The U.S offered Indian students X amount of seats to attend M.I.T. Nehru responded by saying that he would prefer that M.I.T, the U.S Government, and the Indian Government, all three band together and create an M.I.T-styled institution in India. The outcome was the Indian Institute of Technology I believe, whose torch-bearers today are people such as Premji and other Indian businessmen.

Pakistan however prefered to utilize the offer in a different manner and just sent a couple of students there, and I do not know what the nature of the selection-process was.

Indians think at least 50 to 100 years in the future.

b-school means business school.

And thank you for the offer of hospitality. Under better circumstances, I`m looking forward to meeting people like nhk, freozek, you and even manto...

RIL and UTI-Mastershares were the pioneers in India. They started the trend of getting people to invest in the share market and mutual funds. Today we have a internnational class stock exchange and 1000s of mutual fund schemes from over 100 companies competing for attention...

Re: # 531

``I do not like to remain hostage to the past.``

Haroon, those are indeed words of deep wisdom.

The other great investment my dad made in my name was to invest in UTI-Mastershares (mutual funds). An extraordinary success story - just like RIL. Damn I feel so rich ;)

Yes Godot, I think there was a massive communication breakdown. Supreme Court has 12 objecitons to Hasba Bill, did you hear about it?

Funny Reliance should get a mention ....my dad bought 250 Reliance Industries Limited (RIL) shares in my name when I was born. Today because of free bonus shares issued by the company over the years , I have today 900+ RIL shares in my name , and so have a personal interest in the RIL story. Now that the company has split , the share value has reached a highest ever of Rs. 750 (more or less) , and looks set to cross Rs.1000.

Yesterday , during the AGM of RIL , Anil Ambani annouced that for every 100 shares of RIL , the share holders will be given 7 shares of REL (Reliance Energy - Rs. 650) , 5 shares of RCL (Reliance Capita - Rs. 470l) and 100 shares of Reliance Communication Futuristics Limited (Rs.40 , I think..the value of this one in particular will jump like crazy by Mar , 2006 when this company will be opened to stock market for trading).

So what my dad bought for a just Rs.5000 odd way back in 1986 is today worth almost Rs.800,000 !!!

Since I dont intend to sell even a single Reliance share until my very last breath , its gonna be really interesting to see how much bigger this investment becomes when I am 30 , 40 , 50 and 60.

#530

yup, mukesh was at UD, bugger doesnt give much money to the school though, just gave a crore once.

Arjun, I actually want you to visit Pakistan and be my guest. Why don`t you consider the offer? As in, for many Indians and American-of-Indian-origin, it`s a once-in-a-life-time-offer.

B-school, meaning Boarding school? I am curious as to where they did their undergraduate from! Reliance has been rated as one of India`s best over 1 billion dollar companies.



Yes Hamdani, that is what I was refering to. And your comment were you accused me of `wreaking havoc in Pakistan` started my retaliatory coments to you. But now it is a closed chapter. I do not like to remain hostage to the past.

says here that Anil Ambani did a Bsc from bombay university....which means he partied in one of the south bombay colleges before he went to wharton.

Says here that Mukesh Ambani did a bachelors in chemical engineering from bombay university(UDCT?!?)

Re: # 513 & 523

Haroon,

Yours, Yasser`s, and my thoughts about Pakistan are quite similar and we are on the same page. I think hostilities expressed were due to miscommunication and frustration. I’m sure you guys are smarter and know better than what appears between you two.

Anyway, you say, ``Pakistan should settle for peace for the next 20 to 25 years in order to make sure it`s own house does not fall apart. Kashmir issue should be revisited when our economic and military muscle is strong enough to convince India to be flexible...``

That is precisely the Indian argument: put Kashmir on the back burner and make it a secondary issue, not a primary one, in India-Pakistan relation. Kashmir will take care of itself once both countries are at peace and are comfortable with each other. You, however, have a motive different than what the Indians are up to. But putting Kashmir on the back burner for now is definitely the way to move forward in relations with India.

Godot...

Don`t know if you check the email you`ve listed on your writers` page...

Please check it if you don`t.

#526

they went to B-school at Stanford and Wharton, but where did they go before that?

It`s ambani... Mukesh Ambani went to stanford and anil ambani went to wharton. They`re both worth around 3 billion $ each.

ArjunM,

This is true. And sadly this mentality has radicalised even the most secular of Pakistani forces- the Pakistan Air Force which once prided itself on being inclusive and secular given the high percentage of christians in its ranks.

The most scared I felt was when I discussed world politics a few years ago with a fighter pilot, who was a senior of mine at PAF College Sargodha... amazingly (and perhaps logically) at PAF College he used to be the most non-nationalist type ... I remember him even saying stuff like ``Partition was wrong`` etc.

3 years ago when I exchanged a couple of emails... this great fighter pilot told me that it was the duty of every Muslim to wage Jehad against all non-Muslims especially America and Israel. I asked him if other fighter Pilots felt that way... he said every single one of them was a true Muslim today...

I tell you the reason for decline was that Zia eradicated Bars from the forces... Exorbitant quantities of Alcohol and some good ol` nationalism kept these gentlemen in line...


Salim,
Agreed.

Haroon,
Feel free to produce the exact post where I supposedly insulted you or Don which elicited his response #20. Unless you are referring to this:

``#10 by Mantolives on July 28, 2005 1:43pm PT
Re: # 9 Well clearly if this is the state of the elite...

Ah well. ``

So I am not supposed to say even that much or else you would jump to personal attacks or justify them?

Did you guy`s hear about the 25,000 karore expanion Reliance Group is doing in it`s Oil Refinery? It will make Reliance Oil Refinery the largest oil refinery in the world!

What do you guys know about the Amdhani family? Which institutions have the two brother attained their degrees from?

Pakistan should settle for peace for the next 20 to 25 years in order to make sure it`s own house does not fall apart. Kashmir issue should be revisited when our economic and military muscle is strong enough to convince India to be flexible...

#519
``BTW, we caught you, you said ``Zalim.`` Any blue-blooded Hiindu would say ``Jalim.`` So, what excuse do you have for your proficiency in Urdu?``

What urdu! Mardood mein to hindi mein likh raha tha. Zalim is 100% khalis hindi;-)

#520
``Mr. Elahi blooms into a Jenny``

please I know the boy has put on some weight, but do you think he will bloom all the way to a 36D?

#506, Manto {``It is completely up to Mr Elahi... its his crossroads...``}

For all of our sakes, let`s hope that Mr. Elahi blooms into a Jenny and not a Joe McCarthy. :)

Salim

#507, Friend,
Yaar, dost, please do not commit frienlicide. Hostility was just mentioned as a contrast to your nic. Nothing sinister, mister. I was just having fun.
BTW, we caught you, you said ``Zalim.`` Any blue-blooded Hiindu would say ``Jalim.`` So, what excuse do you have for your proficiency in Urdu?

Good to interact with you. Sir, you are funny and witty. That`s all that matters. Being right is no one`s right. :)

Salim