Pakistan’s Choice

Re: # 473

Done!

Dear Haroon,

Please refrain from leaving threatening messages on the MSN. This is a discussion forum and it should not give you sanction to threaten me in person.

-YLH

Re: # 472

All friendly/decent/dignified communication from anyone is welcome...

BTW,
Any Chowkis who were invited for any of the Dawood ibrahim`s daughter`s nikah etc ceremonies????

Somebody advised us politely to stop chasing mullahs....................
that is exactly what we have been doing for a long time......it is time to watch them and their women folk getting chased by these mullahs with their sticks once the Hasba bill also comes to their Punjab province!!!

I know I know, they would harangue us with the `actual` political situation on the ground and how the Hasba bill can never come to Punjab!!!

Haroon,

I have not abused and insulted you- yet you keep writing ilogs after ilogs about me. Will you please get your head out of your arse? I did write that post (which has no manifesto) in which I said that I need to get off my butt and create the resources of standing up politically against the hereditary rich.

What I said in the Islamiyat Class many years ago was perfectly valid and Islamic. I maintain that under classical Islamic jurisprudence it is permissible to pray in the language you know best (instead of going through the motions in a language you don`t understand) and Eid-ul-Fitr was originally a traditional Arab holiday - I did not say Eid was bad... personally (EMPHASIS on personally) I would prefer 14th August as a holiday.


Don,

I have nothing against you being rich. Not being the socialist type- I do not have a prejudice against the rich. Infact had you cared to read, I praised your family but I never did have any respect for you and today you have vindicated my gutt feeling. You are the one who resorted to personal attacks and abuse. I have not addressed any post to you, but your name has come up in the passing because your friend Haroon Elahi has been bringing you up again and again in his posts.

-YLH

Re: # 467

PS : Yes I did go to the same school for O/A Levels and APs the biggest mistake of my life... my parents are professionals and they thought it would be a good investment...

Looking back at it I think it gave me a lot of complexes but no real education... I owe what little education I have to a few libraries in the North East of the United states... and a few musuems.. and this website.

Re: # 468

.... not to mention Dr Shankar`s cyber therapy and guidance... in the early years of chowk.

#456 by tahmed32

[Has anyone bothered to read the Quran and understand its fundamental message - which, as I said earlier, places responsibility on the INDIVIDUAL, NOT on the state, and certainly not on any maulvi or mard-e-momin, for implementation of the message.]


So then what is the possible circumstance where the Sharia would be applicable?

And which entity is supposed to collect the Jezia tax (protection money) from the wretched dhimmis?

There`s a million more questions like these, but I thought I would begin with these obvious two.

Re: 426 by haroonellahi

[The term, `Secular Islam`, is an oxymoron and was made in highly poor taste. It`s like saying to a conservative Jew that he/she may consume a Kosher Cheese Burger, or saying to the Hindu that you may consume cow meat.

Cultivating a secular mentality however is totally different and it is not an oxymoron. ]



I see, so ``secular Islam`` is an oxymoron.

Okay. Got that one...

Therefore, if you are Islamic, you CANNOT be secular (in your thought and action).

Okay, I`m still hanging on....


But then you CAN develop a secular mindset. Because this is somehow ``totally different``.


Ummmm....what? Really?....This must be very deep.


Who says Chowk posters are without deep insights?

Re: Tahmed 456

On 6., basic economics should tell you that a Common Market does not just about simply because ``muslims`` want it. Economic ties are based on economic realities. The only interest Malaysia has in Pakistan is as a source of some IT people and that is all. Malaysia`s markets are in the developed countries. The only Common Market Turkey wants to join is the European Common Market. Even the arabs dont give a damn for Pakistani`s great love for ``muslim brothers`` - Dubai booted out mullah unceremoniously only yesterday on account of his terrorist ties!! How many ``fellow muslims`` do you see on chowk?? Get real, my young friend. Wake up from the dream world Indian muslims have been living in.

Dear Tahmed Sahib, What has poor haroonellahi done to get the sobriquet ``Indian Muslim``. Surely exhanging a few verbal brickbats with manto cant be that big a crime.

Regards

Godot #various: I think, perhaps, our (yours and mine) energies would be better spent, trying to discuss good governance and point out bad governance. Rather than habitually chasing the ghosts of mullahism and secularism, twenty-four hours a day - two concepts that cannot fill an empty stomach.........

Use that as the criteria, and Pakistan will be much better off........

As an example, from what I have read the NWFP MMA govt. isn`t providing good governance. Criticise them for that. Not for merely being a maulvi party. On the other hand, Karachi has a Jamaat-i-Islami mayor, named Naimatullah. He is an old guy (70+), with a long white beard. Karachi, as you know has been one of the most maladministrated cities in Pakistan; perhaps the world. All the MQM govts. have screwed up the city, and have turned it into their private ranch of violence. MQM, by the way, is probably the most secular party in Pakistan.

I haven`t been to Karachi for ages. But whomever I run into seems to say that Naimatullah is doing a good job. I even talked with a lady, who is a business executive. She had a meeting with him, and even she was impressed. As were the foreigner ladies accompanying her. I have heard him debate MQM wallahs on TV, and he alwasy provides stats which show far more honesty in his govt. than in the previous MQM govts.

Once again, I was not sure, so I did some more research. There is a website called, http://www.worldmayor.com/. Apparently Naimatullah is one of the 65 finalists for the award. Only 9 out of Asia are finalists.

I still wasn`t sure, because the site could be a fly-by-nite piece. So I did some more research. Cowasjee is a Parsi journalist in Karachi. He criticizes anyone and everyone, in the govt. Naimat is a Jamaat-i-Islami man. The last thing one would expect someone from a religious minority to say about him, is something positive. Right......

Well, Cowasjee says the following: ``the outgoing City Nazim, having virtually been our Lord Mayor, the crisply fiscally honest Naimatullah Khan`` (www.dawn.com).

Now Naimatullah is not secular (neither is Imran Khan, mind you). While Altaf Hussain is secular. Whom would you want running Karachi? If the above is true, my vote in Peshawar goes against Qazi Hussain, but my vote in Karachi goes for Naimatullah..........

Perhaps, we need to get out of spinning our wheels around secularism and religion, the whole day. There are other more important things.........

Re: # 462

{{Perhaps, we need to get out of spinning our wheels around secularism and religion, the whole day. There are other more important things.........}}

Yup!
Keep spinning the wheels of how patriotic you Azaaaad Kashmiri are...

Evidently,
by your schrewd assessment....
the average Pakistani is very humble & bhoola (though patriotic)

Its no wonder that an average Paki...
has ``BOUGHT`` your BS

You are, after all, a product..
of your ``spitting-on-Islam`s face`` LIAR miltry

Americans call..
``Military Intelligence`` an OXYMORON!....

``World-famous`` Paki-military ...
is the BIGGEST oxy-MORON...
& they have ruled your blighted country
for most of its sad history...

Is it ANY wonder...
that ``the world-renowned`` Gen. Mushy...
has to come to Amrika...hat in hand..
or sends his Citibank chela Shaukat Aziz..
to ask for..
for BHEEK from Washington...

And PARITY with India...!!!

Yaar, Bush ...
AINT AS DUMB AS HE LOOKS & ACTS!!!
We NRIs have made DAMN sure he listens to US..
& he takes VERY GOOD NOTES!:)))

#457 by Romair on August 3, 2005 7:45pm PT


I can say with a lot of certainity that if a people`s revolution ever came, the servant in my house is not going to run to the mosque and grab the maulvi`s throat. He will turn to me and grab my throat.


Have you considered a t-shirt with a canadian flag to stay safe while you are in Pakistan? Clearly the US and UK flags are not a good idea....

one second thoughts, they might give you some payback for all the taliban killed by the the princess patricia`s snipers.

Godot #451: ``When lost an election, a peaceful transfer of power to the winner. Once in power, Pakistani mullahs are highly unlikely to do that. In fact, once in power, Pakistani mullahs will so quickly and so radically suffocate everyone in Pakistan that people like you, me, and Haroon will not have time to cry, “mommy.”

That is precisely the dilemma and the danger Pakistan is facing today...``

I never vote for mullah parties. Never have, never will (unless Benazir is the only other candidate). But we need to get the facts straight. Mullah parties are amongst the most democratic in Pakistan. They are one of the few parties which have internal elections. And are not heridatory. And most of all, they are the only lower-middle class parties in Pakistan. They have put farmers and poor laborers and lower class maulvis into the assemblies. Most of the rest, like PPP and PML, are elitist heridatory parties, which never hold internal leadership elections. They have Chairpersons for Life.

Mullahs are just a nuisance who will disappear, the moment any credible non-mullah leadership appears (different from the corrupt feudal PPP and PML). Pakistan has much bigger problems than mullahs..........

Also, there is more to Pakistan than, ``you me and Haroon.`` We are a tiny microscopic elite. In fact, you and me aren`t even in Pakistan. We are volutarily foreigners. Let me tell you something: There is a mosque close to my house in Pakistan. I can say with a lot of certainity that if a people`s revolution ever came, the servant in my house is not going to run to the mosque and grab the maulvi`s throat. He will turn to me and grab my throat.

I don`t know how much you have worked with true middle-class (real middle class with no cars and motorcycles; not Chowk middle-class wannabees) and lower middle class Pakistanis, but rest assured, you and me (i.e. the rich folks) are far more disliked amongst common Pakistanis than anyone else (including the mullah). The middle-class considers the mullah just a removable nuisance, since he is even poorer than they are. It considers us the elitist mafia, which hogs all the nation`s resources..........

So, I don`t think mullah is the biggest challenge facing Pakistan. But since you think so, could you point out how you have reached this conclusion. Are there any surveys, from Pakistanis you can quote. Not from Indians or Americans, but from Pakistanis?

I think maulvis are a problem in Pakistan. But definitely not the biggest one. . I have never heard anyone say, ``Man, the only job I have is as a sweeper at Godot`s (or Romair`s) house, but if I could only get rid of the mullah, everything would be so hunky dory in Pakistan.``

I would put, feudalism in the rural areas, and financial corruption in the urban areas as the main problem. After that I would place the class divisions in the society, with us being the English-speaking elite and the remaining being the Urdu-speaking, ``awam.`` And then I would also place the involvement of the Army in business and politics as the next one. All these before the mullah.....

I personally think all this talk of mullahs and secularism is way overblown on this site. It takes way too much bandwidth for no reason. I would much rather see this bandwidth spent on discussing the improving of the canal systems, the introduction of IT into villages, how to improve the highway system of Pakistan etc.

What people want is a raise in their standard of living. If you don`t believe me, let me ask you a question: Did you and/or your family migrate to the USA for its secularism and democracy? Or did you migrate to make more money and get better jobs? I migrated for the later (more money and better jobs).

Re: # 457

My dear cousin,

{{That is precisely the dilemma and the danger Pakistan is facing today...``}}

You figured that out...
aaaaaalllll by your lonesome?...
hahn!!


{{I never vote for mullah parties. Never have, never will (unless Benazir is the only other candidate).}}

Unless the mullahs have a ONE PARTY manifesto...
FREE KASHMIR!!

{{But we need to get the facts straight.}}

Damn straight...
so stop spinning them...
ISI BUTThead!!:)))

{{ Mullah parties are amongst the most democratic in Pakistan.}}

See what I mean...
spin..spin..spin..

DUKKAR
Didnt godot tell you that they will kick out democracy the MINUTE they come to power?
Pl. start staking some notes...
Cpt. CLUELESS!!

{{They are one of the few parties which have internal elections. And are not heridatory. And most of all, they are the only lower-middle class parties in Pakistan. They have put farmers and poor laborers and lower class maulvis into the assemblies. Most of the rest, like PPP and PML, are elitist heridatory parties, which never hold internal leadership elections. They have Chairpersons for Life.}}

Thats EXACTLY WHAT LENIN dreamt of in the erstwhile Soviet Union..
Thats how these b#stards SEDUCE an unsuspecting bhoola AWAM to gain power..

communist & right wing fascists ALL start out that way!!

why in the world do you think Hilter APPEALED to ordinary Germans...
before he came to (took over) power?

{{Mullahs are just a nuisance who will disappear}}

NOT as long as they KEEP proffessing jihad to liberate Kashmir...
Havent you figured out (by now)...
that that`s EXACTLY the game your world famous military has been playing?

Oh well . I guess you dont have the guts to admit it.
You are, after all, a product of that rat-infested; Islam-insulting institution..

,{{ the moment any credible non-mullah leadership appears (different from the corrupt feudal PPP and PML). Pakistan has much bigger problems than mullahs..........}}

YES!!
like your Goddamned Army

{{Also, there is more to Pakistan than, ``you me and Haroon.`` We are a tiny microscopic elite.}}

Yes..
but when you cling to the dominant discourse in Pakistan...
keep clinging to it...
you`ll go very far & high up in political power..
maybe then you can take bribes & buy a better house in Toronto...


{{ There is a mosque close to my house in Pakistan. I can say with a lot of certainity that if a people`s revolution ever came, the servant in my house is not going to run to the mosque and grab the maulvi`s throat. He will turn to me and grab my throat.}}

Better him ...than me! :))))

Seems like the mullahs have already converted the hearts & minds of your awaam...
Pakistan is F#CKED!!!!

{{ but rest assured, you and me (i.e. the rich folks) are far more disliked amongst common Pakistanis than anyone else (including the mullah). The middle-class considers the mullah just a removable nuisance, since he is even poorer than they are. It considers us the elitist mafia, which hogs all the nation`s resources..........}}

After experiencing rich guys, on Chowk, like haroon elahi & Don Corleone...
I cant say I blame them!:)))

{{So, I don`t think mullah is the biggest challenge facing Pakistan.}}

Touche!!!
You Azaaaaaaaad Kashmiris are!


{{I would put, feudalism in the rural areas, and financial corruption in the urban areas as the main problem. After that I would place the class divisions in the society, with us being the English-speaking elite and the remaining being the Urdu-speaking, ``awam.`` And then I would also place the involvement of the Army in business and politics as the next one. All these before the mullah.....}}

Yo!
Put Al-Qeeda infested Azaaaad Kashmiri BUTT(heads)...
on TOP of that list....


{{{I would much rather see this bandwidth spent on discussing the improving of the canal systems, the introduction of IT into villages, how to improve the highway system of Pakistan etc.}}}

So put your money where your frikking mouth is...
& migrate to frikking Gilgit...
You are too afraid to bring up a child in evil Western Canukistan anyways....

{{What people want is a raise in their standard of living. If you don`t believe me, let me ask you a question: Did you and/or your family migrate to the USA for its secularism and democracy? Or did you migrate to make more money and get better jobs? I migrated for the later (more money and better jobs).}}

FECKLESS/SHAMELESS bugger ...

You & your kind are like the British who camed to India...
sneered at the local culture...
& became extremely wealthy...

You know Romair...
its a HECK OF A LOT OF FUN...
having unilateral conversations with you :))))