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Pakistan’s Choice

Godot July 28, 2005

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#1 Posted by Urstruly on July 28, 2005 11:00:27 am

``Pakistan’s salvation lies not in weapon acquisition and becoming a pawn of China in the Great Game of Asia, but in its own rapid economic growth and development, in subduing its jehadi groups, in building strong political institution, in independent Judiciary, in merit-based education, in pursuing total peace with its neighbors.............``

This is an extremely tall order. Please explain to me, how any of it is possible, without launching an armed struggle against military and ruling establishment. Billi ke galay maiN ghanti kaun bandhay gaa bhai. This reminds me of the words of Lennon who once said that ``no man can cause a revolution; the ingrediants for a revolution are always present first then a leader comes along and leads the revolution``.

I, personally, think that the temperature in the pressure cooker is rising steadily since failed Nizam-e-Mustafa Tehrik in `76 and people are becoming aware who has brought them to the level of absolute disenfranchisement and how. The 9/11 came as a turning point when the schism between oppressor class and the oppressed has come to a point where no convergence is possible anymore, except the annihilation of one or the other. Such articles are meaningless now.
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#2 Posted by arjun_m on July 28, 2005 11:01:08 am
MODI MODI MODI MODI

GUJRAT GUJRAT GUJRAT

KASHMIR KASHMIR KASHMIR KASHMIR KASHMIR KASHMIR
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#3 Posted by arjun_m on July 28, 2005 11:08:15 am
I got that out straight out of the pakistani playbook...say modi 4 times, gujrat 3 times and kashmir 6 times and the fabric of space will be ripped apart and the following will no longer hold true...


While India is synonymous with Information Technology, Pakistan is associated with terror and nuclear proliferation.


Damn...It doesn`t work...Looks like Pakiland needs a new playbook....
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#4 Posted by kaurasach on July 28, 2005 11:08:34 am
India is and will never be a threat to the world if she continues to be governed be hijras.

Whether a hijra is armed with a knife, or a machine gun, or a nuclear missile, is irrelevant. The differnce is when it acquires balls; that is not physically possible. So, India will become a power when the power is wrested from these khusras. Till then, Pakisatan has no worries.

US is a use and throw culture. So, how long US uses India and when it throws the `friendship` away is only matter of time. US will use India`s shoulder to fire at China. But keep in mind that a khusra`s shoulder are not strong as they appear to be.

Pakisatan will continue on the wretched path of microscopic and perverted policies. There is no cure for inherited diseases and embedded inherent traits.

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#5 Posted by anil on July 28, 2005 11:22:04 am
Godot: This is how my thoughts had come, and I had submitted for publishing as an essay at Chowk. Anyway here it is, and would love to get the reaction at Chowk.

What binds us ….. into a national identity?

National identity is complex to define but easy say, just as a brand. Over all these years, while I have read so many and interacted a few and met some of the Chokies, some thoughts have come to my mind that I have put down here. To them, I ask the question “What binds us …. into a national identity?”, and hope to hear from both ``mujhse behtar kahne wale, and mujse behtar sunne wale”, alike.

This is not meant to offend anyone, but an attempt to bring out answers on this question from diverse people who come and visit Chowk. Anyone who feels offended, I apologize in advance.

What binds today’s India?

Icon and institutions:
1. IIT institution of the nerds, by the nerds, and for the nerds.

2. Crazy Politicians: Lalloo Prasad Yadav on Jay Leno Show.

3. Nerdy sport: Cricket, so what Pakistan won, there is always a next time, let him talk about his Great .NET Application (GNA), and not GWOT.

4. Bollywood: New meaning of entertainment and bollywood has it all, why just Aishwarya Rai, genes of billion Indians may produce many more Miss Universe and Miss World? Is it a la Romairesque, and in numbers and statistics?

5. Dream job: more over government job; make way for IT and ITES entrepreneurship.

6. Food: variety of Indian foods.
7. Dress: clothes…. whatever.

8. Indian dreams of personal success: from
“Main Madhuri Dixit banna chahti houn” to
“Main Azim Premji banna chahta houn” to
“Main Sachin Tendulkar banna chahta houn” to now don’t forget
“Main Sania Mirza banna chahti houn”….

9. Old wine in new bottle “….. Phir bhi dil hai Hindustani” sung anew…. ?

Language:
10. Hindi, that no one really knows how to speak except Vajpayee, and other kal ka netas.
Who cares, tapori, chalta hai Hindi/Tamil/Punjabi and English would be spoken in three generations.

Religion:
11. Diwali would be fine, and for hindutvaadis send them valentine cards for their love for protest. VHP and Bajrang Dal must be worried the strike fizzled and not violence after suicide attack on Ayodhya.

What binds America?
1. Things American.
2. Dream American.
3. Uncle Sam’s Power, “jo humse tak raye ga, choor choor ho jaye ga”.
4. Wall Street to Main Street.
5. Attract from the best and the brightest to and wet backs and live off happily ever after.

What binds China?
1. Chinese pride.
2. Chinese dream of Olympic medals.
3. Chinese products in Wal-Mart to Fifth Avenue.
4. Things Chinese
5. China means – the middle kingdom – the center of the universe
6. Make it happen.

What binds Pakistan?
1. Religion: or does it?
What are we talking about?
Is it about Church (sorry, Mosque) of Pakistan or State of Pakistan?
Who should I ask, mother in my family, or Mullah in my mosque, or my military?

Should I start from personal realm to community to Ummah – but that jumps and looses Pakistan somewhere in Ummah?
Or, should I start from lost somewhere in Ummah to personal realm?

2. Hatred of India: can it be still?
Heart does not feel it, yet mind is so confused!!!
Who should I ask, mother in my family, or Mullah in my mosque, or military?

3. Language: Urdu, does it, but Indians claim it their too?
Military: That Punjabi institution, or is Pakistani?
Nerdy institutions, where are they?
Any institutions, but where are they, chalo Army
Is Army – the chowkidars of Pakistan or is it Pakistan the provider for Army?
Who should I ask, mother in my family, or Mullah in my mosque, or my military?

4. Heritage: Turkish have it, Iranians have it, even Arabs have it, even Indians have it, whatever happened to Pakistan’s, could it be Indian ripped them off, after they have Kashmir, Junagadh, Hyderabad, and Taj Mahal?
Who should I ask, mother in my family, or Mullah in my mosque, or my military?

5. Sports: Cricket beat Indians, and then what?
Romairesque it is all in statistics, then how come it does not rile Indians?
May be some Indians think of sending Jag Mohan Dalmiya to buy Wasim Akram and Shoaib Akhtar, after all Mahesh Bhatt bought Meera already and more are lining up?

6. Food: love it and see Indians enjoying it too… but can you explain that to Americans and Brits that it is not Indian food, stupid?

7. Old wine in new bottle:
Naqshbandi : Sheikh repackaged as Sha-yekh; Aulia as Awliya; Maulana as Mevlana

Ever heard of Indians – especially Sikh doing it in distant land, now Naqshbandi in distant land.
Is it, “Et Tu Brutus” or “Great Thinker Naqshbandi?”

8. Icon and Institutions:
Who to ask the addresses?

Yasser: He has the right address but that is of pre-1937 and secular Jinnah, because Gandhi and Nehru messed him into communal thereafter.
Urstruly and Tahmed: Always amaze me.
Hamidm: Really, please be serious. Is it all about my religion or farishtaa with wings?
Romair: Why can’t you see, it is all in statistics?
Temporal: Still trying to figure the philosopher out of poet or poet out philosopher.
It is all eclectic group no different than anywhere else, or is it?

Lost in a time warp!!!
It is all in statistics, can it deliver the binding force for Pakistan? Precisely.

Thank you.

Anil Kapuria
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#6 Posted by KaalChakra on July 28, 2005 11:40:00 am
Godot

I don`t know if it is a compliment or an insult, but were I a patriotic Pakistani, this is the type of stuff I would hope to write.

(Unless Pakistani state makes some fundamental changes, China could be Pakistan`s greatest disappointment ever.)
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#7 Posted by HaroonEllahi on July 28, 2005 1:26:57 pm
If you are suggesting that the Islamic Republic of Pakistan withdraw it`s support for the genuine and legitimate Kashmir Liberation Movement, then I am sorry to say but I do not think you are a true Pakistani nor do you have respect for the thousands of jawans who have given up their lives in the face of Hindustani aggression.

The People of Jammu and Kashmir must and god-willing they shall have their unalienable right for a plebliscite met.

At heart, I agree with you that Pakistan must foster good relations with India. But on whose terms? The Indian is not ready for comprimise, why should we behave as the weaker ones and accept the Line of Denial as a permanent border?

You wan`t us to give up our arms so that Hindustan can further acquire more armaments? You want development and want the nation and her people to be wealthy ,who will protect it? We need sustained economic growth AND sustained growth of our conventional and unconventional capabilities to teach India a lesson if it is harming the Pakistani Nation.
Kashmir Zindabad! Pakistan Zindadad!
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#8 Posted by wanderer on July 28, 2005 1:29:11 pm
Godot,

Excellent analysis. Couldn`t agree more.

As a nation-state, do you think Pakistan will one day implode given all the domestic regional strife between Punjab (read army) and the other provinces ?
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#9 Posted by HaroonEllahi on July 28, 2005 1:30:13 pm
My friend just read the article and here are his remarks, he shall be joining chowk shortly:

who the hell are you to say that we should feel ashamed of being pakistani`s?! All you do is bad mouth ur own country which you say you are trying to improve! if you were really worried about pakistan you would not be so unpatriotic. Do you think your the only one who has thought about this? Things like this are easier said than done!..If we do one thing 10 other problem will arise, think about the things that can go wrong before stating that your ideas could change the world!...and there is no different types of islam, there is only one kind..the kind there was in The Holy Prophets(pbuh) time...it cannot and will not change. if u took less walks and actually studied something before commenting on it maybe you wouldnt be thought of as just a dumb fanatic...
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#10 Posted by MantoLives on July 28, 2005 1:43:27 pm
Re: # 9

Well clearly if this is the state of the elite...

Ah well.


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#11 Posted by arjun_m on July 28, 2005 1:52:04 pm
#7 by haroonellahi on July 28, 2005 1:26pm PT


Kashmir Zindabad! Pakistan Zindadad!


you forgot...Islamic jihadis zindabad...how could you forget the islamic jihadis...they were your only weapon against India..it`s not like your army is actually capable of taking back kashmir, love for which you solemnly swear....
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#12 Posted by southasian on July 28, 2005 2:03:13 pm
Good article. May peace prevail!
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#13 Posted by HaroonEllahi on July 28, 2005 2:14:50 pm
There can never be genuine peace with India if India continues to deny the people of Kashmir their unalienable rights.

Arjun, Iran-Pakistan-Central Asia relationship will manifest itself into a relationship, where all parties will have increased self-interests in the existence of the other. Just wait and see how hindustan will be humialated, you guys have gotten used to it any ways, remeber the 1000 years of Muslim rule? :^)
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#14 Posted by HaroonEllahi on July 28, 2005 2:18:31 pm
Re: # 10

Dear yasser,

I think everyone has the right to an opinion, not just yourself. Freedom of speech is a two-way street. My friend and I had some serious reservations about this article, which has been written in extremely bad taste, and both of us wrote our views.

All this boo-haha about Pakistan lately is an attempt to sling mud in the face of Pakistani nation and it could be seen as the demonization process of Pakistan acclerating, something which India badly wants.


What is Secular Islam?
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#15 Posted by HaroonEllahi on July 28, 2005 2:27:47 pm
And for the record, you guys should actually be suggesting idea`s to counter whatever you think supposedly is happening in the country as opposed to writting fiery-articles disgracing the Pakistani nation.

It`s always blah blah blee blee bloo blooo bleee blooo! Okay, fine, we get it. But here is my advice, why don`t you SUGGEST a method to counter the problem(s).

This goes out to all the self-styled writers on Chowk, of whom a distinct minority only air ideas as to HOW we can tackle the problems. pfft..
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#16 Posted by kaurasach on July 28, 2005 2:57:30 pm
For four years now, I have argued repeatedly that the footprint of every major act of international terrorism passes inexorably through Pakistan, and I had an extended list compiled of hundreds of incidents that confirm this thesis, which was widely circulated. Many Pakistani commentators and sympathisers attacked this evidence as `Indian propaganda`.

But in his address to the nation on July 21, 2005, spurred by the second series of terrorist attacks in London in two weeks, Pakistan`s President, General Pervez Musharraf, finally conceded, ``Wherever these extremist or terrorist incidents occur in the world, a direct or indirect connection is established with this country (Pakistan).``


Of course, the admission was merely tactical, in keeping with his past record. Every time there is a major incident of terrorism, particularly in the West, and the linkages to Pakistan emerge, there is a flurry of ostensible activity - some arrests are made, the President makes another speech declaring unstinting support to the `global war against terror` and the need for `enlightened moderation`, a handful of supposed `Al Qaeda terrorists` are killed off in some remote hinterland in Waziristan - to convince the `international community` that he is the bulwark they need against the tide of extremism in Pakistan.

This is a smokescreen
and in his speech on the evening of the second attack on London`s public transport system, the admission was quickly followed by an assertion: In his `message to Prime Minister Tony Blair`, he declaimed, ``Aspersions are being cast in the media on Pakistan. We certainly have a problem, which we are trying to address. Britain also has a problem that needs to be addressed.`` He argued that, while three persons of Pakistani origin were involved in the 7/7 London attacks, the fourth was a Jamaican; if the Pakistanis were indoctrinated in Pakistan, where did the Jamaican get indoctrinated? He declared, further, that several extremist organisations operated with impunity in England, and this - not the training camps in Pakistan - was the source of Britain`s troubles. He noted, moreover, that the `Pakistanis` involved in the 7/7 incidents were `born and bred and educated` in Britain.
………………
July 11: Afghan authorities arrested five men, including a Pakistani national, and foiled a series of planned bombings across the country. On the same day, police arrested a man armed with weapons and explosives. He had studied at two Pakistani religious schools and planned to bomb electoral centres and offices as part of a five-man team, the other members of which escaped.

July 7: At least three of the bombers who carried out the terrorist attacks in London were British males of Pakistani origin, had recently visited Pakistan and are believed to have linkages with the terrorist infrastructure there.

June 29: Five Pakistanis suspected of planning terrorist attacks in the south of Afghanistan were arrested.

June 24: Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said in Moscow that terrorists from Afghanistan and Pakistan were training for attacks against Russia and the former Soviet Central Asia and they periodically cross into Central Asian territory.

June 20: Afghan intelligence officials foiled a plot to assassinate the former US Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad and arrested three Pakistanis armed with rocket propelled grenades and assault rifles.

June 18: United States Ambassador to Afghanistan Zalmay Khalilzad said that Taliban leader Mullah Mohammad Omar was hiding in Pakistan and criticised Islamabad`s failure to act against Taliban leaders.

June 16: A Pakistani and two Frenchmen were awarded prison sentences by a Paris court which found them guilty of aiding convicted `shoe-bomber` Richard Reid, who attempted to blow up a Paris-Miami flight on December 22, 2001.

June 10: An investigation into an Islamist extremist cell in the US city of Lodi, California, in which five persons were arrested, revealed that at least one of them had received training in a terrorist camp near Rawalpindi in 2003-2004.

And we have still only gone through a little over a month this year!

Indeed, across the world, major acts of international Islamist terrorism - irrespective of where their perpetrators were ``born, bred and educated`` - have all been linked in some way or another, to Pakistan.

Nevertheless, on the occasion of each new incident of terrorism that agitates the Western world, we see the same bogus expressions of sympathy and solidarity emanating from Pakistan, quickly followed up with accusations against the West and sweeping generalisations regarding the failure to address `root causes` and `outstanding disputes` such as Palestine, Kashmir, Iraq, Chechnya... But do Muslim grievances alone have root causes? And are these the only outstanding disputes in the world? Why then this floodtide of hatred and terror? And why is its fountainhead and source located in Pakistan?

You cannot build a nation on hatred alone - but this has been the essential Pakistani enterprise. It needs reiteration here that, while much is made of the Al Qaeda and its Arab origins, the fact is that the Al Qaeda is essentially a Pakistani creation, as are the large number of other jihadi organisations that were raised during the anti-Soviet campaigns in Afghanistan, and continued to proliferate thereafter, including the Taliban. General Pervez Musharraf has been directly involved in the creation and support of at least some of these groups, and Pakistani sources concede that it is difficult to find many in the current establishment who were not, at some time or another, involved in the training, funding and direction of these terrorist forces, or in organising their many camps and centres.

Under US and international pressure, today, Musharraf vacillates between dual loyalties. Even as he boasts of his anti-terrorist credentials and operations against the Al Qaeda in Waziristan, evidence - backed by Pakistani open sources - swells regarding the reactivation of terrorist camps, as in Mansehra, and of the open activities of the Taliban and other terrorist and extremist organizations. But in his attempts to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds, Musharraf can only lead his country to disaster.

Through the 1980s and early 1990s, the Khalistanis had tried to build a movement out of hatred and violence. It was rejected by the large mass of Sikhs, who recognised how completely terrorism was in conflict with the tenets of their faith, and the movement collapsed and is, today, an object of derision and contempt in Punjab.

This will be the eventual outcome of the Pakistan-backed movement of extremist Islamist hatred, violence and denigration of other faiths. Regrettably, it is being artificially kept alive at present by massive and continuing state support, by the cynical exploitation of false sociologies of `root causes` and by a range of `human rights` organisations that have accepted the role of the handmaidens and fellow travelers of terrorism. Nor indeed, has a sufficient rejection of and resistance to this pernicious ideological movement been generated within the larger Islamic community. And it is only when such a rejection is openly and forcefully manifested that this perversion of Islam will eventually be defeated.

It is the world`s duty to create the conditions for the articulation of the ideas of the silent majority of Muslims, who are as oppressed by extremist Islam as are the non-Muslim victims of Islamist terror. This is a scourge that must be faced with courage and determination, and that must be stamped out with all the force at our command.
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listing 1-16   1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11

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    #304 Ron_Weasley
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    #302 shankar
    #301 shankar
    #300 shankar
    #299 shankar
    #298 shankar
    #297 nazarhayatkhan
    #296 shankar
    #295 shankar
    #294 shankar
    #293 JagdeeshGodbole
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    #291 dost_mittar
    #290 dullabhatti
    #289 bongdongs
    #288 premwalla
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    #284 premwalla
    #283 premwalla
    #282 mohar11
    #281 friend
    #280 anil
    #279 premwalla
    #278 satyamvada
    #277 MantoLives
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    #275 premwalla
    #274 MantoLives
    #273 shishapa
    #272 Don
    #271 premwalla
    #270 HaroonEllahi
    #269 rsridhar
    #268 MantoLives
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    #265 Dalit
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    #263 premwalla
    #262 premwalla
    #261 shishapa
    #260 arjun_m
    #259 Gandiv
    #258 southasian
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    #256 premwalla
    #255 premwalla
    #254 KaalChakra
    #253 shankar
    #252 cayenne
    #251 arjun_m
    #250 premwalla
    #249 premwalla
    #248 KaalChakra
    #247 premwalla
    #246 HaroonEllahi
    #245 MantoLives
    #244 MantoLives
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    #240 arjun_m
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    #213 cayenne
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    #210 MantoLives
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    #203 Romair
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    #198 blrswinger
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    #196 ahmedmadani
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    #194 pmishra2
    #193 friend
    #192 ana
    #191 friend
    #190 ana
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    #188 ana
    #187 HaroonEllahi
    #186 HaroonEllahi
    #185 HaroonEllahi
    #184 HaroonEllahi
    #183 ana
    #182 Ranjit
    #181 KaalChakra
    #180 ZahraJ
    #179 HaroonEllahi
    #178 ana
    #177 HaroonEllahi
    #176 HaroonEllahi
    #175 ana
    #174 HaroonEllahi
    #173 Don
    #172 HaroonEllahi
    #171 hindvi
    #170 shankar
    #169 MaududiLives
    #168 Ron_Weasley
    #167 southasian
    #166 ana
    #165 southasian
    #164 southasian
    #163 Ron_Weasley
    #162 Don
    #161 bongdongs
    #160 Ron_Weasley
    #159 Ron_Weasley
    #158 shankar
    #157 shankar
    #156 ana
    #155 Don
    #154 shankar
    #153 KaalChakra
    #152 KaalChakra
    #151 shankar
    #150 friend
    #149 kalihawa
    #148 ana
    #147 friend
    #146 friend
    #145 Don
    #144 Don
    #143 Don
    #142 mohar11
    #141 ana
    #140 Saj1981
    #139 mohar11
    #138 Don
    #137 friend
    #136 Don
    #135 strongspirit
    #134 shankar
    #133 ahmedmadani
    #132 MantoLives
    #131 malik99
    #130 shankar
    #129 ahmedmadani
    #128 ahmedmadani
    #127 Romair
    #126 premwalla
    #125 friend
    #124 KaalChakra
    #123 MantoLives
    #122 HaroonEllahi
    #121 HaroonEllahi
    #120 MantoLives
    #119 MantoLives
    #118 friend
    #117 harimau
    #116 Don
    #115 Don
    #114 Don
    #113 Simon_Templar
    #112 dost_mittar
    #111 strongspirit
    #110 majumdar
    #109 MantoLives
    #108 ana
    #107 burpinder
    #106 Gandiv
    #105 arjun_m
    #104 arjun_m
    #103 arjun_m
    #102 Kane
    #101 arjun_m
    #100 Kane
    #99 Kane
    #98 HaroonEllahi
    #97 HaroonEllahi
    #96 ana
    #95 Kane
    #94 HaroonEllahi
    #93 HaroonEllahi
    #92 HaroonEllahi
    #91 HaroonEllahi
    #90 arjun_m
    #89 HaroonEllahi
    #88 Gandiv
    #87 southasian
    #86 arjun_m
    #85 HaroonEllahi
    #84 rsribhar
    #83 dost_mittar
    #82 khamkhwa.
    #81 arjun_m
    #80 satyamvada
    #79 Romair
    #78 rsribhar
    #77 rsribhar
    #76 friend
    #75 Ally
    #74 friend
    #73 MantoLives
    #72 rsribhar
    #71 MantoLives
    #70 rsribhar
    #69 shishapa
    #68 rsribhar
    #67 rsribhar
    #66 rsribhar
    #65 Naqshbandi
    #64 vivek
    #63 Naqshbandi
    #62 MantoLives
    #61 premwalla
    #60 premwalla
    #59 subroto
    #58 Ally
    #57 tahmed32
    #56 MantoLives
    #55 arjun_m
    #54 MantoLives
    #53 KhurramSiddiqui
    #52 MantoLives
    #51 Saj1981
    #50 MantoLives
    #49 ballukhan
    #48 bbabu
    #47 bbabu
    #46 bbabu
    #45 rsridhar
    #44 cayenne
    #43 sachinukm
    #42 burpinder
    #41 burpinder
    #40 cayenne
    #39 MantoLives
    #38 MantoLives
    #37 ajeya
    #36 MantoLives
    #35 MantoLives
    #34 ijaz_gul
    #33 nazarhayatkhan
    #32 veeresh
    #31 arjun_m
    #30 Gandiv
    #29 veeresh
    #28 Kane
    #27 Kane
    #26 ShoreSahib
    #25 ShoreSahib
    #24 arjun_m
    #23 arjun_m
    #22 arjun_m
    #21 Don
    #20 Don
    #19 Saj1981
    #18 Gandiv
    #17 khare
    #16 kaurasach
    #15 HaroonEllahi
    #14 HaroonEllahi
    #13 HaroonEllahi
    #12 southasian
    #11 arjun_m
    #10 MantoLives
    #9 HaroonEllahi
    #8 wanderer
    #7 HaroonEllahi
    #6 KaalChakra
    #5 anil
    #4 kaurasach
    #3 arjun_m
    #2 arjun_m
    #1 Urstruly

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