Pakistan’s Choice

What a pathetic bullxshit. Same old well known Mantras again & again.

Prescribing Aspirine where a brain surgery is required!

For starters:

Disown the Two Nation Theory.
Get Islam out of the Constitution (instead of chasing shadows of reforming it)
Give provincial autonomy.

And forget about what India does or does not do. Only exploit its nearness to your advantage if you can instead of making it yet another pain in the a... (Mullas & military are quite sufficient to do that)

nhk

GODOT, your fiver article had the most undeserving response. It has acted as a rallying point for all those progressive, modern, enlightened in Bushism Pakistan haters.
Cheerios

Ali- (either one)

I can understand if what I said in class was not intellectualised by you- maybe it was too early for me to tell 9th graders of all people. I would like it if you please refrain from making personal comments about me. They are incidental and irrelevant to the discussion here. About the namaz comment however let me remind you that it was student named Jamal who said that he prayed in English and I said that this position was perfectly valid in classical sources of Islamic jurisprudence. Its a view- it doesn`t make me less of of a Muslim though. I am afraid I cannot enter into a pissing match with an adoloscent, so I will restrain myself from making any comments about your own background.

Sincerely

Yasser Hamdani

Re: # 5

Dear Anil Kapuria sahab,

Thanks for your vote of confidence. Any address- be it of pre-1937 South Court Bombay- will do as long as it is the right one.

Godot,

An excellent article with the remedies of Pakistan`s malaise.

I think you used the word ``Secular Islam`` provocatively. What you wanted to say I suppose was what Albert Hourani declared as the liberal age for the Muslim World.

I think sadly the liberal age that dawned in 1930s was shot down by the Islamic revivalists like Maududi and Syed Qutb.

#33 by nazarhayatkhan

That’s exactly right. Pragmatic and to the point.

Although I’m not sure what is meant by “disowning” the two-nation-theory.

Benedict Anderson said that identity and nationalism are imagined ideas. He was right. I

What was the two nation theory? It was actually the time lag between Ram Mohan Roy`s emergence in the Hindu community and Sir Syed`s emergence in the Muslim Community- nothing more. It goes without saying that the Hindu community was able to construct a bourgeoisie class under the British much quicker while Muslims initially rejected Western education and ideas till Sir Syed came around. The two nation theory ladies and gentlemen was a specific strategy aimed at improving the lot of the Muslims within British India. It was introduced by the Neo-modernist Muslim political thought emerging out of Aligarh. Pakistan as envisaged by the Lahore Resolution infact contradicted the two nation theory, as commonly understood, since it did not envisage any exchange of populations. Muslim Nationalism, as it emerged, itself grew on the ideas of modernity and reform. It rejected traditional views of the faith as well the rejection of the western thought prevalent amongst the Mullahs of deoband.

I don`t know what we gain out of making emotional statements but the pragmatic thing to do is to declare that whether or not Pakistan is one nation, 2 nations, 3 nations or 10 nations, the constitution of the Republic of Pakistan will be completely impartial to people`s own concepts of identity. Indeed this is the whole debate and not to impose this kind of nation or that kind of nation on anyone.

Imagined identities means simply: There might be people living in Pakistan who associate themselves with a Pan-South Asian sentiment and for that that is a nation. Others might think that all Muslims in the world are a nation and it is true for them. There might be Pakistanis like me who believe that any and all citizens of the republic and holders of the passport of the republic ... there are others still who believe and rightly so that Sindh is a nation, Baloch are a nation, Pukhtoons are a nation and even Punjab is a nation.

So what is the meeting point? None! Except a constitution THAT does not go into the question of whether there is a two nation theory, three nation theory, 4 nation theory, single humanity theory or global warming theory. Leave that to the individual.

Re: # 38

Clarification ``it rejected traditional views of faith and Mullahs` rejection of western ideas`` - that part isn`t crystal in the previous post.

Also simply put the argument is as follows: In a truly secular democratic society no state should have the power to dictate to anyone what ``theory`` or ``idea`` or ``identity`` he or she ascribes to. So there should be no question of owning or disowning.

Paksatans love to berate the Indian army for violating the rights of the people of indian kashmir.What do they have to say about the paksatanic army`s actions in paksatan kashmir??....
Last Updated: Thursday, 28 July 2005, 15:09 GMT 16:09 UK
BBC News

E-mail this to a friend Printable version

Pakistan soldiers accused of rape

The family of a young woman in Pakistan-administered Kashmir has accused three soldiers of raping her.

Police have registered a case against the unnamed army personnel, said to be members of the Mujahid Battalion, for the rape of the villager.

The family says the army has put pressure on them to withdraw the case. The military has not yet commented.

This is the first alleged rape in Pakistan-administered Kashmir in which military personnel have been accused

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4725157.stm

Re: # 30

Malaysia?

Godot,

This is a very mature article. I am not surprised at Haroon`s reaction. Many readers probably suspect you of being some kind of Indian-in- Pakistani disguise by now :)

What I find amazing is that you only mention ``Kashmir`` in passing ONCE in your article (``Pakistan`s ill-conceived policy of jehad in Kashmir``) and somehow that turns out to be the one thing that ``patriots`` on both sides pounce on to ``discuss``.

If only the political leadership of the day thought and spoke like Godot does, maybe we could go a long way in ensuring that successive generations do not face the same problems that ours did.

Peace.

Re: # 36

On ``Secular Islam``: I hope when people use or rather abuse phrases like these or secular hindu, these phrases inevitably become oxymorons.
The problem with this whole concept is that when you talk about secularism wrt a specific religion, you defeat the whole purpose, howsoever good the intentions might be.
In a country like India, where hindus far outnumber any other religion, the terms like secular hinduism, or for that matter secular islam in pakistan, come to be seen as a concession made by the majority, even out of pity, if I dare use the word!
Thats the exact type of attitude that alienates the minorities. The congress in India has had an apologetic attitude towards muslims, maybe an effect of their failed policies from `47. The other extreme is the BJP which is at the other end of the political spectrum, being at the extreme right. They have their counterparts in the mullahs in pakistan.
Unless there is an ideological change which attempts to view all the religions and classes or whatever, on a single platform, I dont think words like secular hold any meaning on grassroots.

To all paksatans who glibly use ``china`` as some sort of big brother who will rescue pak from the clutches of Uncle Sam, i pray they remember 1971.Where was China when pak was being cut up like raw meat?.Where was China when even ol` Nixon was counting on them to put pressure on the injuns?.And, the US was eager then to establish relations with the Chinese.God knows what carrot they might have dangled to the chinese!!.Didn`t work.

Let`s fast forward to the NOW.India and China are the two emerging markets of the world.India and China have resolved most of their border disputes and agreed to settle any outstanding issues amicably.India is developing China`s software capabilities in return for China developing indian hardware capabilities, thereby affording computers to lower income populations in both countries.Indian professionals are working and living in China and are paid in US dollars.Chinese professionals live in indian cities and work/study in India`s IT companies.And,the consumer goods market is the most important factor in the India-China equation.Korean fmcg companies like LG, Haier,Samsung et al have already started penetrating rural indian markets, the largest segment of the indian population.The chinese are just itching to get a piece of the pie.

If i were pak, i would realize that due to my foolish actions and self-destructive behaviour i have placed myself and my country in a very precarious position.But will the pak`s realize.No, they won`t.And, that`s good news for us indians.

re:#33 by nazarhayatkhan
Finer words of wisdom were never spoken on chowk.
The fact of matter is, India has chosen its own trajectory. That trajectory takes India towards more free market, a pro-west economic and military alliance, and strengthening of its secular and democratic credentials.
Pak can either chose its own trajectory or continue to envy/hate India and wallow in self-pity.
It makes a lot of sense when the author of this article says:
``Pakistan’s salvation lies not in weapon acquisition and becoming a pawn of China in the Great Game of Asia, but in its own rapid economic growth and development, in subduing its jehadi groups, in building strong political institution, in independent Judiciary, in merit-based education, in pursuing total peace with its neighbors and, most critically, in inculcating and nurturing a concept of “Secular Islam” in its population...``
The question is: can Pak acheive any of this when a military ruler rules that country and Army-Jehadi nexus goes unchecked?
Sridhar

`` The ten-year defense pact between the US and India, which explicitly recognizes India as a nuclear power granting it access to acquire technologies available only to a handful of countries, has catapulted India to a level a few nations have achieved. While Europe and America raise champagne glasses welcoming India to their club, Pakistan has left biting its tongue in envy watching its nemesis and archrival get crowned on the international stage under the spotlight. ``

It does not give India access to any technology. It lays the groundwork for future technology transfers,

`` No intelligent person can quibble with the extraordinary cordial relationship that has developed between India and the West. India offers all that is most desired and cherished by the enlightened West: a functioning democracy, professed secularism, constitutional protection for minorities, science & technology, a large middle class, excellent institutes of higher learning, free press. While India is synonymous with Information Technology, Pakistan is associated with terror and nuclear proliferation. There could be no darker contrast between these two countries that were once the same and now share a thousand-mile border. ``

There is enormous economic relationship due to outsourcing. The political, strategic and military components are playing catchup to the economic relationships.

`` No intelligent person can blame India for Pakistan’s myopic and incompetent policies, both foreign and domestic, and for its miseries. That Pakistan today finds itself as an abode of terrorists is not India’s doing. Pakistan’s ill-conceived policy of “jehad” in Kashmir and Afghanistan supporting ruthless, illiterate and mindless warriors has come home to roost.``


`` In light of rising Indian power blessed by the West, what policy options does Pakistan have? Pakistan’s impulse, in reaction to US-India pact, would be to run into China’s camp. China, the bogeyman of America’s conservatives, is Pakistan’s trump card against US-India alliance. While US and India get ready to play a perilous game against China, Pakistan is in a fortunate geographical position to milk the most out of it as it was positioned when the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan. ``

Even if China supported Pakistan it would not offset Indian support for USA

India + USA >> China + Pakistan


`` The Pakistan Government was worried about Mukhtar Mai “bad mouthing” Pakistan on her trip to the US, realizing little that her trip would have served exactly the opposite. One should ask Musharraf and his Government that if they were so worried about Mukhtar Mai “bad mouthing” Pakistan, then what do they make of the terrorists links found between the London and Sharm el-Sheikh bombers and Pakistan making headlines the world over. Today, one should be ashamed of calling himself a Pakistani, and that is not because of Mukhtar Mai. ``

Why are you surpised at the strategic myopia ?

`` Pakistan’s salvation lies not in weapon acquisition and becoming a pawn of China in the Great Game of Asia, but in its own rapid economic growth and development, in subduing its jehadi groups, in building strong political institution, in independent Judiciary, in merit-based education, in pursuing total peace with its neighbors and, most critically, in inculcating and nurturing a concept of “Secular Islam” in its population, a concept that if it does not exist then must be invented by Pakistan. It is a Islam that existed in Pakistan during Ayub Khan era. ``

If Pakistan develops it human resource potential it can be a significant player in the global equation. Pakistan will have a population at least three times that of Germany and twice that of Japan. Pakistan has more land than Japan or Germany. Peace with your neighbors helps. Dumping stupid traditions alos helps.

`` Pakistan’s only choice is to bury forever the policies that have brought it nothing but contempt from the world outside and misery to its own people. The most difficult question, however, is this: Does Pakistan Army have the guts to stand up to the stone-age minded mullahs and their fellow jehadis and create a Pakistan envisaged by its great founder? ``

The Pakistani army has the guts to kill every single mullah. Do they have the brains ? Do they have the heart ?

haroonellahi #15

`` It`s always blah blah blee blee bloo blooo bleee blooo! Okay, fine, we get it. But here is my advice, why don`t you SUGGEST a method to counter the problem(s). ``

It is hard to counter a problem when you cannot identify it in the first place.

haroonellahi #13

`` Arjun, Iran-Pakistan-Central Asia relationship will manifest itself into a relationship, where all parties will have increased self-interests in the existence of the other. Just wait and see how hindustan will be humialated, you guys have gotten used to it any ways, remeber the 1000 years of Muslim rule? :^) ``

Muslim control over Delhi lasted from 1192 to 1707. Technically there was a Mughal emperor until 1857. The chap was a figurehead.

1000 years of Muslim rule !!! It was more like 500 years on the average.