Women's Voices in the Pakistan Movement

harish bhai!!!!! tu cheeta hai... magar meri beevi qatl karday gee mujhay... she is the most empowered right now.

See I mentioned Harish`s name and he popped up.

Regards

#42 by majumdar

[Where is your best pal Harish]

Here I am majumdar bhai! :-)

#39 by Mantolives

[This morning I was driving and I stopped at the light and all 6 cars around me had women drivers... that I`d say is achievement... we can do it.]

Yaar Yasser, that is quite an amazing achievement. To be surrounded by 6 women drivers is no mean feat for a man. Congrats!

Dear Manto,

(Jinnah on the other hand was a practising Shia Khoja Muslim and one thing central to shiite faith is that they don`t allow any marriage out of Islam ... Current Agha Khan`s daughter is the first woman to marry outside the faith... )

Agha Khan’s daughter cant be the first shia khoja girl to marry outside her faith- Dina obviously was the first. Plus I believe one of FV ji’s sisters or cousins married a Hindu.

(Women in Jinnah`s household were not like women in Gandhi`s and Nehru`s households i.e. submissive second fiddle ... )

Many people- the Pakistani POWs at Dhaka for example- certainly wouldn’t call Indira a submissive second fiddle


Where is your best pal Harish

Regards

#16 Zeena

I am just curious. What part of Pakistan you live in?

By the way if anyone`s interested... I came across another great book called ``Jinnah and Gandhi in the Indian freedom struggle`` by a Bengali Indian SK Majumdar from Calcutta...

It was published in 1966- the gentleman was a votary of reunification of Pakistan and India.. however his rendering of history which shows Jinnah and Gandhi in their true colors... is very balanced and remarkably open minded...

There are many Indians who know the truth and are not afraid to speak their mind- against the hogwash that has prevailed in both India and Pakistan over partition.

Saminasha...

I am not interested in that interactor anymore than I am interested in this joker BJKumar...

Why did I write this article? Because I owe very substantially where I am to these women... let me explain why... I am all that I am because my mother is one of the leading professionals in Pakistan in her field ... and who has served the country honestly and faithfuly for 30 years... now living in retirement.

What if these women not stood up for what they stood up...

Certainly- then I would not be here ... because my mother, a first generation Pakistani born in 1947, would certainly not be educated by her family. It was the consciousness of the All India Muslim League whose member my mother`s grandfather was after 1939... that brough women`s education to her family, her village, her community... It was Pakistan that gave her the opportunity to become a doctor and then a leading person in the Health department..

Had this region continued to be dominated by the Hindu Bourgeoisie - more secular, better educated and well established- maybe the region would have done marginally better but specific groups like that of Muslim women would have been worse off (imagine that)... I have no doubt about it and all data shows this... It is true that much of the advantage was squandered under ZiaulHaq but Pakistan`s vibrant civil society has brought the situation back on track... Even the worst authoritarian and the most bigoted Mullah now realises that women mean votes, women mean economic development, women mean more resources...

This morning I was driving and I stopped at the light and all 6 cars around me had women drivers... that I`d say is achievement... we can do it.

-YLH

#36 Mohar11

Relax my dear! Let us not entertain the doomsday scenario.

I am of the view that if India had stayed united, things would have worked out - not necessarily smoothly - but they would have worked out nevertheless - just like they appear to keep working out for the remaining parts of India.

The act of partition drove an irreversible wedge among people who are essentially the same people (but are now saddled with the baggage dumped by recent history).

And while I have my crystal-ball handy, just imagine - in a United India:

(a) There could have been a relatively strong minority presence in several present-day Pakistani provinces - perhaps obtaining a voting clout similar to the way Muslims do in certain Indian ``heartland`` states.

(b) There would have been a more liberal Muslim general population in present-day Pakistani provinces due to (1) exposure to ``minorities``, (2) absence of indoctrination by state, (3) better system of checks and balances, (3) more stability and fewer unstable regimes, (4) less room for demagogues to operate by cultivating the psychology of fear.

(c) There would have been virtually zero chances of the armed forces stepping in and grabbing power, partly because of the size of the country and partly because the British Army psychology prevailing, and partly because there would not have been a power vacuum due to the death of any single individual political leader! (Remember, Pakistan used to be a relatively secular country (in practice) until General Zia got into the act! And Mullahs by themselves can never do any damage until the army empowers them!)

(d) There would not have been many of the post partition events that widened the gulf further - imagine (1) no Kashmir problem, (2) no Bangladesh problem, (3) no war-1, no war-2, no war-3, no Kargil, no ISI - none of that ``exciting`` stuff.

Use that imagination a bit! Imagine the most populous country in the world! Also, the most diverse country in the world - multi-religious, multi-ethnic, multi-languages, multi-talented, multi-you-name-it! Do you think ANYBODY would even ask silly questions like the eligibility for a permanent seat at the UN security council?

We - the victims - can only imagine what it would have been like! Would it have worked out? Could it have worked out? My own guess - based on little more than common sense and gut feeling is that it would have. But unfortunately, we shall never know. Alas, those leaders never gave us a chance to try to live together.

Perhaps many of us do not see the folly of our ways. Many in the present generation certainly don`t. The poison of indoctrination - especially of the religious kind - and the type that fanatics enjoy - it goes very deep and numbs the senses and better judgement!

Perhaps someday, our children will be able to see that folly! Those who are left in the old country, that is!

Kulharee ...

Even on that count Jinnah stood head and shoulders above the real charlatans of his time i.e. Gandhi and Nehru... the first one blew his top with his son`s conversion to another faith and Nehru actively tried to break apart his daughter`s marriage ... and dented it greatly. Gandhi was deadset against intercommunal marriage... while Nehru actually supported it and yet was frenzied into doing all that he could.. supposedly even forcing Mr Feroz ``Gandhi`` to become a parsi publicly instead of a Muslim.

Jinnah on the other hand was a practising Shia Khoja Muslim and one thing central to shiite faith is that they don`t allow any marriage out of Islam ... Current Agha Khan`s daughter is the first woman to marry outside the faith... It must also be remembered that while at one point in his life Jinnah had advocated inter-communal marriage, his wife Ruttie was nominally Muslim. His daughter, despite his opposition, was not stopped at any point from marrying the man of her choice. She was raised by Jinnah to be a confident headstrong young woman... this is empowerment. Why was Jinnah opposed to it? There could be many reasons... could be religious ... could be that Gandhi`s toadies i.e. the Mullahs on Congress Payroll were already abusing Jinnah as a kafir .. But what is confirmed is ... that Jinnah did not try and stop his daughter`s wedding or disrupt her marriage..

Women in Jinnah`s household were not like women in Gandhi`s and Nehru`s households i.e. submissive second fiddle ... Women in Jinnah`s household stood confidently and marched with Jinnah as equals... disagreed with him and even dissented...




Sanjay...

Where is Islam is the best in this article... ? I wonder... or is it a crime to celebrate your own past.

Re: # 29 bj
[.....perhaps it would still be a part of India, in which case we won`t have the current mess - the Pakistani population would not be saddled with all those Mullahs...]

Instead, the united Indian population would have been saddled with those mullahs.... is that what you want?.... I mean, even after sending the faithfuls packing to their promised pure land - we are still saddled with quite a few mullahs, islamists, and their symapathisers - temples and shops are being burnt on drop of the hat..... riots opening up on pan-islamist issues.... the faithful are going crazy like moth@fa**kers they are on filmsy pretexts....and muslim cheerleaders keep cheering them from their ivory towers....

Manto,

Notice the lack of female interactors on this board? Why do you think that is? Why do you think that yet another article written about the Women`s movement in Pakistan is commented on yet again only by male interactors? Meanwhile, on the same front page, the interactor you have refused to condemn for his disgusting comments about Muslim women activists has advised that Pakistani women should not pretend to be Bollywood starlets and learn ``how to give head``.

Why should any woman reading chowk.com take anything said about women seriously?

#33 by hamzaad

Kakoo,
(Perhaps that did not come out right - it sounds too close to ``cuckoo`` for comfort!)

Do you HAVE to get me in this awful position - having to defend a lawyer - and Manto the lawyer at that!

I am not sure Manto is a ``bullshifter`` like you claim. I do believe his dreams are honest - and hopefully, he is trying to work out the inconsistencies as well as some of his very basic faulty assumptions inherent therein. Also, the comparison with Hitler is grossly unfair - one must not discount the intentions - Manto`s are benign, after all!

(I hope I can skip the inevitable fate that you allude to - that scary sugar-level thingy!)

Go easy on the lawyer, will you? What if he sues you (in Pakistan) or something - and there is no statute of limitations that I know of - I have heard they still have a warrant out for Advani!

Re: # 23

BJ,

There is no bigger favor than to acknowledge a bullshitter like manto that he has dreams (as if others don`t)* and that dreams be taken seriously (Hitler had a dream too). Especially some narrow-minded nationalistic ideals that employ Us against Them dichotomy.

Within a few years, some of us will develop Diabetes, some of us will surely die prematurely while manto may very will become the assistant secretary to the Information Ministry. All of us will have ample opportunities to gratify our senses and cheat on our significant others while keeping up with the news and responding to it by posting on this website. kaka would like to hear anything more significant than the lines above.

Jinnah and Gandhi will stay dead and the babies being born left and right in India and Pakistan will stay irrelevant to the reality of our well-being.


*Yes, that`s exactly what it means. Ascribing something to someone is pointing to the lack of it in others..

#31 Hamzaad

I see your point about taking individual responsibility. But in reality, like in most such matters, it needs to be a combination approach - one could try to change a LITTLE bit of the society while trying to change a LOT of what goes on at home.

(It is my understanding that most Muslim leaders from pre-independence were progressive and liberal at home, more or less.)

And what is the basis of your smug statement that it is possible to change the mind of one woman any easier than the society as a whole? Have you ever tried? If so, did it work? I bet not!

(PS: and why the nickname ``kaka``, and what the heck did you do to dispose of the ``bhateeza``?)

Re: # 17

Brother artsoo,

The relevance of a Cartoon Prophet is as much as any individuals would accept it to be. As a reproductive agent, you have to ask yourself, what is the best way to raise your own female off-springs. Some choose infanticide (per manto, there is some going on in India. Could the Cartoon Prophet be responsible for this?).. and some choose to put in an extra investment towards the upbringing of their female offsprings*. The point is, instead of reforming the attitude towards women all over India/Pakistan, wouldn`t it be prudent to pay attention to your own females (This is why Jinnah is a criminal in kaka`s book). You might say the attitudes of the larger society affects the way your li`l female is perceived and the answer to that is that either you can take up the herculean task of changing attitudes all over India or you can brainwash your little girl into thinking that she and other women are not the same.. and that she must work for her own goals and choose her role models from any gender she likes.

So.. the blame you`d want to place on a Cartoon Prophet is misplaced. It is individuals who choose and suffer the consequences of their actions. If tomorrow manto`s children grow up and say, `yaar hamaaray abbu yau thay hi chutya, magar iss Jinnah ullu kay paTThay nay hamari life barbaad kardi`, then wouldn`t you step in and say, no baiTa it was your father who chose and suffer/enjoys the consequences of his actions?

*http://chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00005925&channel=gulberg&start=0&end=9&chapter=1&page=1