Changing Muslim Hearts

nice hallucinations.
my brother died in american bombing , am i able to for give them , my city is under crises, who should i blame ?
My sub continent is under priviledged ,because of some one`s fault and i am sure, i we are to be blammed then United states policy makers are not innocent?
Muslim should not say work like ,islam suck , ? because he was accused of some thing,we didn`t even do it .
I state two different point of my layman society
we are not happy with united states as long as we are not invited over ,once we are we forget what they did to us .
secondly : muslims are blammed because of the clear fact that only muslim are are majorly under attacks ,so 911 story was without logic labelled to be muslims act. many facts now prove the involvement of people other than muzlims,if u include Alqaeda and taliban as muzlims.
plz read theirry maason , journalist from washington d.c

I think your comments on U.S. are very good. I also think that if you were a ``devout mom`` youre children would already feel this way and not question their religion.

Helping alleviate unemployment in Pakiland


Salim is responsible for providing employment to several Pakis

Chowk has provided three FTE CHAPRASIS to keep track of Salim`s threads and messages and delete them regardless of the topic or content.
If this isn`t solving the unemployment problem among Pakis what else will.
Thank you Salim.

ZahraJ #52, You missed Samina`s ``very polite`` vulgarity on the ``Losing ... Religion`` board. Here is what she and Romair Sahib had to say about my wife. Also, please see my response to both of them. Thanks, Salim.

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#97 by Saminasha on August 4, 2005 11:51am PT
{``Ah...the ``husband`` of the Turkish whore speaks..Romair, you must ask Salim Chuhan to post pics of his wife servicing other men...for some reason, chuhan found it necessary to advertise the extent of his cuckolded condition.....and of course, no pics of himself...undoubtably he is as physically lacking as he is creatively and er...well....lets leave it there....``}

and #108 by Romair {``I almost started singing, ``Pak Sar Zameen`` after reading the, ``Turkish whore`` comment........ ``}


Saminasha, Romair
I showed my wife your kind comments about her. She is a very religious young Turkish Muslim woman and was obviously disappointed with such language emanating from fellow Muslims and brotherly/sisterly Pakis. Actually, I showed her Saminasha`s picture (the famous one of her at Lehmann College in the Bronx!). When my wife stopped laughing, I informed her that this ``lady`` is a leading spokesperson for women`s rights and that Brother Romair is a valiant jihadi battling the enemies of Islam and Pakistan.

My wife wants you to know that she will pray for a cure for whatever is afflicting Saminasha to give her such a rotten mouth. She will also pray that Romair does not end up as a crude delivery module for one of AlKayda`s mass transit bombs.

It is amazing how some Pakis go out of their way to alienate others, even those who would be their normal allies. Pretty soon, Indians and Israelis will have to get in line behind the Turks, Arabs, Afghans, British, and Americans in expressing their disgust at Pakis and Pakiland.

Salim

ZahraJ #52,
Thank you for stepping in and reminding her that this is FP and we don`t need profanity here. I appreciate your objectivity.
Salim

Re: # 46

Samina:

What is this? There has to be an end to this nonsense.
What are you trying to accomplish?

What is so wrong about WW I, WW II, Vietnam, Korea, Kosovo or Iraq I ?

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yeah..its people like you who would eventually say...`what is so wrong with world war 3 ?`....
oh wait. There wont be anyone left to say this or to hear this.

babu,
As we celebrate the 60th anniversay of the Hiroshima tragedy, you ask me {``What is so wrong about WW I, WW II, Vietnam, Korea, Kosovo or Iraq I ?
Are you fond of Nazi or Imperial Japan or North Korean dictator or Saddam ?``}

Getting rid of dictators is fine - but destroying millions of civilians while doing so is in the ``difficult to support`` category.

{``Look at the history of the Muslim peoples during the same time period.``}

I have and you know very well my opinion about Moose Limb civility. :)

Salim

rsribhar #45

`` What a stupid imbecile. Most of the post is pure nonsense and does not require any comment. The above statement about profound vision needs to be examined thoroughly. Let`s see:

Annhilation of native Injuns
The Wild Wild West
Gun duels
Slavery
Civil War
Prohibition
Gang warfare
Manifest destiny
WW I, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Lebanon, Bosnia, Kossovo, Iraq I, Iraq II ``

What is so wrong about WW I, WW II, Vietnam, Korea, Kosovo or Iraq I ?
Are you fond of Nazi or Imperial Japan or North Korean dictator or Saddam ?

Look at the history of the Muslim peoples during the same time period. It has all the negatives of the America with very little positives.

Sudan, Mauritania still practise explicit slavery.

I said this on another board, but it holds here too.

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Salim Beeyatch,

The front page is not territory for you to flash your ignorance....we remain unimpressed....

#36, {`` There are some moments of profound vision in American history. ``}

What a stupid imbecile. Most of the post is pure nonsense and does not require any comment. The above statement about profound vision needs to be examined thoroughly. Let`s see:

Annhilation of native Injuns
The Wild Wild West
Gun duels
Slavery
Civil War
Prohibition
Gang warfare
Manifest destiny
WW I, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Lebanon, Bosnia, Kossovo, Iraq I, Iraq II

offoh....

What I meant to say was ,
that in each race religion ethnicity , horrendous crimes have been committed.
All christians are not responsible or answerable for what Hitler did to Jews , and all Jews are not responsible for crimes of Ariel Sharon and all hindus are not responsible for for for....err...Bappi Lehri...
in the same way massive killings and genocide by means as low and as filthy as distributing small pox infested blankets to innocent native americans was adopted by Britishers....Is George Micheal answerble for that crime , no matter how old it is ?

In the same way , it doesnt suck to be a muslim cos every individual is responsible for himself , and not for the whole qaum...

hamidm2,
I will have to read the whole book to find that out.

Re: #39 by teshah

[The fact is that almost all religions ultimately become fanatically sectarian and so anti-human. ]

Exactly. All religions are to be blamed more or less equally. Every religion is bad. You cannot just single out Islam.

Allahu akbar.

Re: # 40

rakaposh, what is the price of tea in china ?

I did not read the whole article...
I actually havent even read the responses....
the comment ` it sucks to be a muslim` just caught my eyes.

and I wondered if all Britishers felt the same too that it `sucked` to be British.

Lord Jeff committed genocide when he spread biological warfare with small pox infested blankets donated to native americans

Anne

This phenomenon of religious terrorism is perhaps deeper than it is generally conceived. My son while seeing on TV a massacre in a place of worship in Pakistan asked me, ``Papa! why they do this in places of worship? Can`t they do this crime somewhere else?`` I said, ``Oh, dear! They seem to be too careful to kill only the `kaafirs` who get segregated only in their respective places of worship.`` As a result you see the armed guards protecting the worshippers only in the so called citadel of Islam, the land of the pure. A country which the Quaide Aazam had envisaged to be a refuge (Daarul amman) for the downtrodden muslims of India has become a place of terror (Darul harab) for them by sectarianism and blasphemy laws. To escape this `citadal of Islam` the poor `pakies` were running to to the west for refuge but now thanks to the `islamic` terrorists they don`t feel safe there either. The great Bulleh Shah had said in Punjabi `Sach aakhaan te bhamarh machda`. But nevertheless he did say the truth in his couplet:

Masjid dhaa de mandir dhaa de dhaa de jo kujh dhenda
ik bande da dil nah dhaawin Rab dillaan wich rehnda

The fact is that almost all religions ultimately become fanatically sectarian and so anti-human.

Re: #37 by hamidm2

Yes, this hands-off approach and my-snot-nosed-kid-is-a-mature-thinker-on-any-sociological-issue-under-the-sun attitude has created the mess of a society that we see in America today.

Broken and dysfunctional families, disrespectful and under-educated youth and declining standards in all the major social indicators are prompting desperate measures by the government and responsible folks in American society - like radio ads about how to behave with your kids - about how to teach your kids not to do this or that - things that we learn naturally from our parents.

Children need guidance because they are children. ``Quality time`` and buddying up to your child like an equal is the easy way out, but causes problems in the long run.

teacher, leave the kids alone ........

....... the other day mrs hamidm bought a picture to replace the one that has been hanging over the fireplace for the last ten years - nobody knows what the old picture was all about and the new one is an even bigger mystery ........ but i digress ..........

...........anyway, it seems that mrs hamidm has been watching a lot of day time tv where effeminate men and .... well ........ regular women with artistic pretensions have been telling people that they should put pictures on the mantle instead of hanging them on the wall as people had been doing for centuries ........... now, being a rather cranky old fogey who used to think that socks come in only one color - black - i was a little uncomfortable with this ``new`` school of interior design ........... so, while i was helping the wife and daughter take down the old and put up the new, i made the comment, `` we don`t have to do this just because some gay guy on tv thinks it looks good !``........... my daughter gave me that look which is reserved for idiots and bigots, dropped her end of the picture on the floor, turned on her heels and walked out of the room, slamming the door behind her ............ i was proud of her even though she made me look like a fool ...............

........... the kids will be just fine if we leave them alone ..............

Dear Anne,

Thoughtful piece. I particularly appreciated some of the dynamics you pointed out; that the ``home`` country is always idealized in some manner, actual systemic economic, soc and political inequities are glossed over, etc., so that consequent generations of Muslim Americans have a piecemeal understanding of what the political realities ``back home`` are. This process is complex; parents who came to the US i.e. thirty years ago experienced a different (and from most accounts, more tolerant and relaxed) and clearly attenuated identity. At the same time, they are anxious about their children losing their (the parents/fam) identity-which is an inevitable process. Ironically, the identities of the home country are evolving and changing simultaneously!

In addition, these children are growing up in a ideologically hostile environment. Yes, as your son observed, it ``sucks`` to be the Muslim constructed by the rightwing American imagination. But as you and other respondents pointed out, it sucks to be a progressive, gay, Black American, Latino working class, a woman, American Indian...welcome to America...

I appreciate your call for Muslim Americans to really study the histories, narratives and movements that have made and continue to make this country what it is. There are some moments of profound vision in American history.

At the same time however, realize that many ``minorities`` have struggled with the issues of self representation, social action, community, empowerment and social justice. Read, for example the People`s History by Howard Zinn. ``Talking Books`` by Henry Louis Gates in the Norton Anthology of Black American Literature. Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee and Sherman Alexie`s short stories. Maxine Hong Kingston, Toni Morrison, there is an amazing canon of ``hyphen Americans`` for us to relate to.

While I understand that your call is to help to detangle the various strands that make up the Muslim American identity, I dont see that or those identities as problematic but a most natural embodiment of what it is to be human. The greater tragedy is to amputate selves that dont fit into the stereotypical jingoism that has substituted multilateral domestic and international policy.

Re: # 30 [When they get up in the morning they should put shoe-
polish on their faces and act `ghetto` all day]

haha, reminded me of that long quotation by Maudoodi, goes remotely like ...``agar dunya pe kaalon ka raaj ho gaya tau apnay chehroN per kaalak malaein ge...charhtay sooraj ke pujaari....``, perhpas you, of all, have come across it somewhere.

regards

[Muslim children often find themselves having to sustain two frames of mind: one at home for the appeasement of parents who can`t seem to let go of the good old days back in the home country, and another out in the world to gain acceptance from their American peers. My guess is that oftentimes it is this dichotomy that plays into a young man`s decision to seal his sense of identity through a terrible act of violence.]

True perhaps....but could anybody be held responsible for it? Neither the `inhouse` society nor the one that prevails outside would be willing to, or could impelled to change....the rule of thumb? Children, can`t but help fall victims to this nauseous clash of socail environment. But this does not necessarily mean they only resort could be acts of voilence and terrorism..the reasons are more far-fetched than this.

Re: # 21 No, they`ll change if all the mitars shave their heads and chins off! Take?

Re: # 28 (nadsc),

Either you have misunderstood my point, or are deliberately ignoring it. Rational thought dictates that there be ``ifs`` ands ``buts`` when discussing any issue. If (see, it appeared) you are asking or advising people to make their sympathies, respect and admiration or even disdain for a person solely the color of his skin or the color of his passport, then I`m afraid I cannot side with you. As a humanist I must condemn the Islamic invasion of Europe and the Islamic rule in Spain, but if I do not condemn the British Raj then what exactly am I?

I quote the author ``Or at the very least, stifle our urges to say disparaging things in front of our kids``, now many people may find this a completely normal thing, but I see in it the beast of Orwellian thought raising its ugly head. However, later the author does say ``By all means, criticize its shortcomings, but in a context of concern, not condescension``, which is heartening.

By your own admission, this is a country where you have found ``respect, honesty and freedom``, yet you are unwilling to accord that same freedom to someone else who has a point of view not totally compatible with your own?

Regards,
Irfan.

Re: # 15 It is amazing. Just this last week you were giving big thumbs-
up signs to news reports that RAW and Israeli Mossad is acting jointly
to promote ethnic and sectarian strife in Pakistan, through mass scale
bombings and targeted killings.

Subhaan`allah. A true follower of Gandhi and Nehru. ;)

I have a solution:

Muslims who feel the Christians don`t like them anymore (not for
what they might`ve done, but for who they are), should become
Christians. When they get up in the morning they should put shoe-
polish on their faces and act `ghetto` all day.

Either that, or maybe the time has come to dust off the Quran
and learn what`s in it. Become proud ambassadors of their faith,
fit to be emulated by the west. Instead of being held hostage by
the action of others, forever lamenting their state and fate.

Re: # 18

After a long long time, I am forced to agree with Tahmed`s words of wisdom!

I do want to point out that in many cases people use heart and mind interchangeably. The process of thinking is mistaken for feelings and vice versa. It may not be the case over here, but that`s a prevalent misconception in many societies.

Re: # 27
This sort of a response is exactly what Anne was referring to.These are the skeptics who instead of condemning the actions of these fanatics will always have a ``BUT`` as an explanation for whatever is happening.The muslims have only one and ONLY one place to assign the blame.It is to themselves !Why have we put ourselves into positions where foreign intervention becomes a neccessity.Why do we repeatedly invite foreign forces to rule our lands.This is not a new phenomenon.It started with the Brits entering India, and the mughals so drunk with power, women and wealth easily gave away their soverignity.Muslims are a screwed up people.We have failed to address our short-comings.We have given the ultimate responsibilty of understanding Islam to an illiterate cult of fanatics.
I love US of A and I will live and die for it.....because this is a country where I have found respect, honesty and freedom.

Good point Anne, we should visibly protest terrorist acts committed in our name. This will not only show the victims (9/11, 7/7 etc.) that we are not tacitly condoning them, but will also show the perpetrators that there is a sizeable segment of our society that does not consider them heros.

That said, maybe you should try and temper your indoctrination of patriotism to your children. Teach them humanism instead, imbibe in them the spirit to respect and admire all countries, not just the US of A. Instruct them to pay homage to the diversity of human existence rather than foaming at the mouth and swelling with pride every time the Stars and Stripes is staked in the capital of another sovereign nation. ``Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious`` said Oscar Wilde, truer words have seldom been spoken.

The world population has passed the 6 billion mark, the resources of the planet are stretched so thin that an overwhelming percentage of humanity is deprived. Add to that mix the competitive instinct of man and you have a sure-fire recipe for disaster. Humanity is a juggernaut rolling relentlessly towards an inevitable and ignoble end. I would be very surprised if there isn`t a string of major disasters during my lifetime that result in our auto-annihilation.

Regards,
Irfan Hamid.

I am very impressed by the comments the author makes regarding integration in the society that one lives in.I have lived in Pakistan,The Middle East, United Kingdom,and the United States.The amount of acceptance I have had in the US far out-weighs any of my other experiences.Being a Pakistani, I was a third class citizen in my own country.The first class citizens were the corrupt , followed by the civil service and military people.I lived in the middle east, where Pakistanis were treated like crap, often referred to as ``Bakistani Miskeen`` or ``Pakistani Beggars``...this at the hand of our muslim brethren.The illiterate`s on the other hand respected the white man and would clean their shit if they had to.UK was a story everyone is familiar with.USA is the only country where I have found myself to be respected and given equal opportunities.Ther are those who will claim otherwise.The biggest reason for non-integration with the citizenry is cited as ``they drink alcohol and their men and women are corrupt``.God Damn! Am I siick of this or what.I travel extensively, I attend many meetings...and I have yet to hear anyone complain that I don`t drink or party as others do.What I get commended for is my hard work.So I say for those who think they are here to fix problems...Get The H

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out here and go back to the stinking holes you cam e from.

#24

You are absolutely right, as long as you also point out:

- how Saddam also killed and tortured, how his son Uday ran the Iraqi ``sports organizations``
- how Saddam gassed the Kurds, all the while projecting himself as a devout momim and swallowing billions in Kuwaiti and Saudi money (another set of holier than thou muslim`s)
- how he started a war with Iran (another set of muslims)
- how the Iranian mullah`s brainwashed Iranian youth to kill themselves on the battlefield as ``basij`` as they went about tightening their control on the state ....

.... so on and so on, and the world becomes a real murky place, where will you stop?

everytime you add a ``but``, as in ``these guys are wrong to do what they did but...`` there is no logical place for the ``buts`` to stop.

annogul1,

rumpus has a very good point, it`s better to teach children, esp. teenagers who are developing socio-political understanding a broader perspective, that the war in Iraq is just as much `terrorism` as 9/11 or 7/7

children should be taught to appreciate life regardless of race, religion, or gender

and they should also be taught to pull those `support our troops` stickers from the backs of pickup trucks

RE: #16

I`m a Paki through and through, so PAF is where all my war veteran relatives took their orders from, Papa-ji included.

We Muslims should learn to respect the people, places and things that they are living with. And work out solutions colaboratively with other branches of society, where the modern day society cannot be sustained without every segment participating! Anne, may your plight be heard where it matters the most! Nicely written...

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Re: # 15, cayenne:
I am happy to note an indication of satisfaction in you, presumably, an IM. I agree with the your observance of the balance that has been struck but would have been delighted if you could take more active stance in negating the Mullahism. Don`t get me wrong, I do have Muslim friends who rather live in India than the Islamic Republic - and I know that - but it is past time when Muslims of moderate temperament start taking more overt stand in commiting to secularism. No body is asking them to denigrate/downrate/abandon their religion but their open declaration of importance of religious tolerance and acceptance of other religions will go a long way towards deepening of confidence between adherents of different faiths, yes, even in India.

anne:

well said on so many counts!

one of the worst things any immigrant community can do is to isolate themselves from the community at large. it just perpetuates the alienation and misunderstanding already too prevalent. and then to involve kids in this....as if growing pains weren`t enough. really!

i wish you success with all the organizing efforts.

miriam

What muslims need is not a change of heart, but a change of brains.

Prem,
Yaar, I feel for you and Mr Quaidon. They are deleting you two gentlemen`s threads like Gaajar-Mooli.
You two gents are the coice of reason but keep the good job dudes.

Re: # 14
Are you related to WW2 veteran(RIAF) veteran?

I`ve been bleating about this but have been either ignored or derided for saying so.But, when are other muslims gonna learn from indian muslims??.Indian muslims, the second largest diaspora in the islamic world, have made a mark in all spheres of human endeavor, in their homeland and abroad and as indian citizens, welcome in all the nations of the world , without let or hindrance.

From our President, various federal ministers,Governors, CM`s, officials, artists, musicians and technocrats, IMs have become brand ambassadors of India all over the world.Living amongst our diverse population , which they are a part of, they have learnt tolerance of others, while imbibing their doctrinare faith.They, i believe, have struck the right balance between faith and practice.Only Colin Powell made a public comment about indian muslims in a positive way, while attending a hearing in Congress on islamic extremism.He said India has almost 200 million muslim citizens, yet they don`t get involved in wanton acts of hatred.

India has the second largest Shia population after Iran.Yet you don`t see sectarian violence, like in Pakistan and other islamic nations.I do not for one moment, purport to be a spokesman for indian muslims.I only state what i feel in support of my indian muslim brothers and sisters. In India, due to open nature of our society, we have space for all.We listen to the stern warnings of our priests, mullahs, pastors and gurus , keep them happy and then go on our merry way and do our own thing.The state offers us the protections and civil liberties that the religious zealots cannot impose on us.Only the Supreme Court Justices of India have the final word on our well being.All this is worth consideration by pakistan, if it wants to change it`s image , undo the damage and become a progressive member of the international community.

Re: # 13

No, I`m afraid not. I live in the Northeast.

Re: # 12
Are you the ana from Oregon? just curious?

Thanks for your (mostly) kind words. Just a note: this essay appeared as an Op-Ed piece in the NY Daily News (not Daily Times, as noted in the footnote at the bottom).

I and some other friends and family members hope to begin some kind of organized effort to help Muslims (immigrants and children and grandchildren of immigrants) assimilate and become positive, forward-thinking, and productive members of our adopted country. If we gather any heat, we`ll call upon you good chowkies for your open minds and hearts....

Peace.

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#5

The muslim problem is only with non-muslims killing muslims, let me illustrate:

(Muslims v/s Pagans)
- Sudanese muslims killing christians and animists - A-OK
- Pakistani terrorists killng Indians - Allah-Hu-Akhar

(Muslims killing muslims)
- Pakistanis killing Bengalis - You know it happens, there were also ... you know, they wear lungi`s and eat fish, man they were asking for it.
- Sudanese in Darfur - you know they are kinda dark, cant be real muslims

The only problem is when Kansas homeboys are blowing up the mosque minaret to get the sniper or the Hindu soldieris who switches to full auto and sprays bullets around.

Thanks Anne. You`ve cut to the heart of the matter and done it so well.

Your article reminded me of this family I peripherally knew a while ago. They were refugees who had got asylum here (I forget which Arab country. sorry) and their kids were born and brought up here. They were not allowed to have any American friends, the girls wore hijab from the time they were like five years old. And they constantly bitched about America even though they had even spent time on public welfare and had even lived in public housing. I think I met them somewhere just once and was so disgusted and disturbed by their constant complaints about the country (that has is own faults) that had given them refuge, a place to stay, food to eat, an opportunity to begin a new life.

I know there are more of these folks who marginalize themselves and consider themselves superior to the US and to Americans. So bombing evil Americans is no great tragedy to them.

I believe they are the minorty but still they are a sad and scary reality and as Muslims we have to decide who do we let speak for us? These ghettoized Mullah types ever ready with their jihad or moderate, reasonable, educated human beings who are not scared of analyzing themselves?

This does not mean America and the West does not have problems or that their policies are great but we cannot forever intersperse the ``but`` when talking of Islamic extremism and violence.

I wish more people were interacting on this board. Oh well!

This thread was read 364 times and there are 6-7 posts.
That certainly speaks about the popularity of your message Mrs. Shamim with the Muslims.

Would you tell your Pakistani brothers in Queens and Dallas to walk openly on the streets with banners and placards condemning UBL and suicide bombings?

fantastic!

You have simply yet eloquently said what so many people think, muslim and non-muslim alike.
Terrorism and all the other hate crimes are not just caused by extremist groups, but also the attitude that is inherent within us all.

If schoolchildren and their parents were encouraged to explore the joys of integration, and to reject xenophobia, then at last things might change.

Well done.

Dear Anne,
good piece and the sentiments behind it are in the right piece. as you watched the unspeakable crime against humanity and heard your 15 year old son say ``it sucks to be a muslim``. do you think 15 year old american (read caucasian/christian) kids say that when they watch CNN where it shows that 20,000 Iraqis died? I dont think so. The issue is that as a friend of mine said, ``Muslims are the new black people in America``.

Far more people have died all over the world and still do than did in NY at 9-11. I think 9-11 was a terrible atrocity but it should be kept in perspective. 3,000 dead as opposed to the million dead in Rawanda in ONE month alone. Sure they werent Americans but they were human beings.

Just because 9-11 happened doesnt mean that every thinking Muslim goes into overdrive trying to explain that Muslims arent all rabid fanatics. When Timothy McViegh was convicted I dont recall his redneck brothers and sisters talking about how all hicks werent bad.

I really think you should keep things in perspective for your 15 year old if nothing else. He needs to grow up with a broader perspective rather than trying to defend who he is.

ofcourse it`s our mess and we have to clean it up, but the world being a mess isnt entirely our fault either. the bottom line is that there is a problem where we have a major role but then the powers to be also have an equal role to play.

rumpus.

Dear Anne,

Noble sentiments! But what took some of us so long to realize what many generations of immigrants have known and been doing for centuries?

[Teach newly naturalized citizens the language, the culture, the ways of being an upstanding citizen. And how about some anti-violence, anti-terrorism classes thrown in for good measure?]

All that information IS currently available, and has been that way for a long while – especially since the internet became available. There is no reason to ask Immigration to do what individuals should be doing on their own (language, etc.).

One of the things many immigrant groups ought to leave at the door is the attitude of expecting a government that would run their lives and do things which THEY need to do on their own.

Glad to read a practical perspective by a Muslim mother on the current state of affairs.

One wonders what must be going on in the minds of the mothers who were on the receiving end of hearing about their sons` acts in London, New York, Madrid and elsewhere.

Anne:

welcome back!

you have said it more eloquently than i do in a rambling oblique fashion...

--leave heavenly injunctions and dogmas aside....it is our mess, we got to clean it up ourselves

more power to you!

lve

t

Amen Sister!