Losing My Religion

Re: # 76
Mother Nature does n`t get riled, remember?! She just gets even...like for eg. poison the environment, air, water,whatever, and guess where it comes back to. What goes around comes around..and suddenly we don`t know exactly who is on the receiving end! The receptacle bit is getting to be dangerous these days,right? Me too, just kidding!

Re: # 69
Let me take that one:

Semitic religions are very explicit in their definitions of who is a Muslim/Christian/Jew or not.
Islam even went one step further and have a Code of conduct book of Laws called Shariat.
It is the official version of religions that make them exclusive. None of the Indian Religions have exclusive theory and say that ours is the only religion.

Notbody needs to use logic here. Just read the shariat and it will be very clear to you what Kaura is saying.

Christianity is more moderate because they have become more water-down religously, and are more tolerant due to Liberalism induced by Protestants.

Romair #47,
Please take a look at Saminasha`s post below:

{``#78 by Saminasha on August 4, 2005 8:42am PT
Well...now that Salim Chuhan the Namard is on this board, this page is officially braindead. ``}


I REST MY CASE.

Salim

#77, Dillidost,
Yes, I have been to Jaipur. I have several relatives there - both Hindu and Muslim. :)
Salim

Dillidost #75.
No need to be sorry. I never take anything you say as a negative. You are narrating history and history is full of ironies. As far as denial of Hindu ancestry is concerned, I agree with you. Many Paki Muslims (even some Indian ones) think that admitting to Hindu ancestry is somehow degrading. I think it is the fascination with being a Shaikh, Syed, Mughal, or Pathan that is the root of the Muslims` problem. This phenomenon is found mostly in UP, Delhi, and Hyderabad. Somehow, descent from Arab, Persian, Afghan, Turk, or Mongol invaders is considered an element of superiority. I guess it is the Ashfrafi concept - noble vs converted. The same was true in Medina, where you had the Ansars (local converts) and Quraish (original Moose Limbs from Mecca).

I have managed to make Islam a very personal belief for myself. I do not associate myself with any Ummah and select my friends and associates based on personal considerations. I do not believe that all tall people are good, all short people are mean, all light people are sneaky, and all dark people are violent. These are stupid prejudices invented by simple-minded folks because they don`t have the mental ability to investigate further.

Thanks for interacting with me in such a polite and informative manner. I always appreciate your presence on Chowk.

Have a great evening.

Salim

Well...now that Salim Chuhan the Namard is on this board, this page is officially braindead.

Re: # 71
Actually chauhan sirname should not be in my list. As I am aware of your story, I also had a school friend who was Rajput-Muslim but he called himself descended from the Jodha-Bai Raja Man Singh`s sister tree.
His last name was Rathore.

Have you ever been to Jaipur, just curious?

Nevertitti, #74,
Women have always been on the receiving end. They have always been the vessels, the receptacles, the bowl, the womb. It`s called Mother Nature - learn to live with it. :)
Just kidding. Wanted to get you riled up due to your pharoaic name.

Re: # 72
Salim,
I am sorry if I sounded harsh in my analysis because all this is history and now you are a Muslim and you have every right to practice your religion as you please. Maybe it was my frustration speaking because I just saw one website about Pakistan`s history and they are white washing all of the history to make it sound like Arab or Islamic.
That is bothersome.
Why can`t Pakistanis accept that a good number of them were Hindus before and now are Muslims and donot distort the history.
Just like Rome has not destroyed their ancient buildings, rather they are preserving all of their heritage and yet they are proud Christians.
Why can`t Pakistan do the same?

Salim: You are a good friend and a good man.

Re: # 45
There we go again...sigh! Its the women on the receiving end again,right? Clip it off and stop her from enjoying sex, where as do the guys lose anything with their version of the clipping....?just curious, that`s all.

Re: # 68
No Sir,
Humbly disagreeing. He is doing so to gain international publicity to counter Mushraffaf`s stature and become a national leader not just sectarian. It is so obvious, I am surprised that you did not see it that way. Like someone else said, he is Pakistan`s Advani.

Personally, I think Pervez Musharaff is the best leader that Pakistan has in many decades, They are better off under him than any other local Politican or ISI backed General. He is honest in his likes-dislikes. I am impressed with Pervez and his initiatives. He is good for Pakistan and he is good for India too.

#71, Dilli,
I am only narrating what I have heard from my grandfather (dada) and several relatives in the Jaipur area. :)

#70, Dillidost,
Thank you for the information concerning Hindu last names of Indo/Pak Muslims. In my own case, my ancestors fought the Ghoris and Delhi Sultanate and the early Mughals. They started serving Mughals after the time of Akbar and during the reign of Aurangzeb converted to Islam as a demonstration of their admiration and loyalty for that great Rajput Emperor. His bravery is still praised among my Rajput relatives. I think that is one reason why so many of my relatives are named after the Mughal/Rajput Emperors.
Salim Ahmed Chauhan

Re: # 51
Raja is a caste derived from Jutt tribes of Sials and Kheras.
A very large percentage of Jutts converted to Islam 300-400 yrs ago to retain hold over their lands. As this was the only option for them to be landlords when pressure was applied by the Mughals and their predecessors whole village and Kasba would convert to survive. This is the truth. Many such converts later on dropped their sirnames as they would be targetted as loosers.
Cheema, Gill, Sial, Randhawa, Bajwa, Tarar, Dhillon, Uppal, Chawla, Mehra, Chauhan, Rajput, Ranjha, Raja, Grewal, Ghumman, Panesar and the list is endless.
Lands mean more to them than religion which was so foreign to them. Neither they could understand the language or the religion but the benefit that came with it was tremendous, that is why conversion. During English Raj Islam was made more accessible to such like people due to modern schools of thought and Koran was available in local languages. I remember someone telling me that in Karnal area(home of Liaquat Ali), there was a cluster of five villages of Muslims, when it bacem clear that Karnal would be in India, they approached their neighbourhood villagers also same caster as them telling that they had become Muslim earlier on due to Nawab’s pressure and now would like to become Hindus again and will the Hindus marry their daughters to them?
The Hindu cousins under greed refused, their intention was to aquire the lands. All the Mann Muslims had to migrate to Pakistan, forced by their own.
This story was told to me by an eyewitness.

Same can be compared to Hindus becoming Christians in Bihar, Kerala or TN these days. We had a maid servant in India whose name was Laxmi but she was a Christian, one day I found out that Roman Catholic Church pays them monthly stipend to come to Church and stay as Christian.
All the powerful people have a tendency to convert others to their thinking, wheather it is Constantine or Ghaznavi or Ghauri.
Contrary to what is taught in Pakistan, very limited number of Hindus adopted Islam on their freewill under Sufi influence. If their are any truly converts due Sufi influence then they would be Kayasths, UP baniyas or Biharis.

Kaura,

What utter rot. Religions all over the world evolve syncretically-to exclude one`s environment, context, fellow practicers, economic and political influences is an unnatural and false performance.

You cant even logically prove your claim.

delhiwala, harish-hyd:

I have never defended Pakistan`s treatment of its hindu minority. Still, one has to be factual and balanced in one`s criticism. Fazloo may be a politician but I don`t think there are many votes to be had by visiting a Hindu temple in Pakistan, let alone NWFP.


khare:

If what you say about the image of Muslims among non-muslims is correct, then things are even worse than I imagined. I can only offer my godless prayers for the future of India.