Losing My Religion

Re: # 36 DM

.....What domination are you talking about? They are hardly represented in the institutions of power, such as police and senior civil service. .....

They don`t have to have official power positions. Osama, Dawood Ibrahim and scores of such do not have any official power. They are actually hunted by police and army. But, do you think people are afraid of them? You bet they are. That is the kind of ``fear`` I am talking about. Go to any small city/town in India (I am from the south and I have seen it everywhere I have been) and talk to people. Most common people don`t know what is RSS, but sure they experience what I said about Muslim community and are expressing the sentiments I described.

....If some of them have taken to illegal activities, what has that to do with Islam?..

I never said anything about its relation to Islam. That is entirely a different topic. I am just mentioning about the Muslim community, as it exists in India now. You would be really blind not to see this growing sentiment among not just Hindu, but all non muslim community in India. Majority of people showing aggressive resistance towards Muslims and their behavior are from socially backward communities rather than the Brahmins, the RSS types.

No, I am not trying to ``demonize`` the Muslim community. But, it is a fact. I am not an expert to tell you why it is happening and who is responsible for this. But, I can tell you the rift between Muslims and non muslims in the region I come from (Northern part of Karnataka and south Maharashtra) is widening so much, people are racing towards ``Gujarat``s. It will take only a small incident to trigger it. No, it is not RSS, BJP or any of that. And, when Gujarat-like thing happens, believe me, neither Congress nor BJP or RSS will be able to contain it easily. For the most part, it is the bad Muslim leadership and their policies. To top it, those Muslims that can envision this are marginalized, helpless and cannot do anything. I may be pessimistic, but things are heading fast towards this calamity.

Nandita,


Semitic religions are not inclusive or accommodating of others - either u are them or you are not. Either your son is a muslim or he is not.

He is not a cake that you can label fraction of ingredients in him.

#37, Simon {``#37 by Simon_Templar on August 3, 2005 6:24pm PT
Re: # 15 If you had ever been to Pakistan, you`d know that Chauhans
are dime a dozen there. They`re millions of them lolling around. Hate to
tell you, but you`re not that special.``}

I may not be special to you and that is OK with me, my friend. :)
Please don`t exaggerate - Chauhans and, for that matter not even Khans, are a ``dime a dozen.`` No one is that cheap and Pakis do not use dimes, at least not yet. When was the last time you were in Pakiland?
Salim

delhiwala, harish-hyd:

I have never defended Pakistan`s treatment of its hindu minority. Still, one has to be factual and balanced in one`s criticism. Fazloo may be a politician but I don`t think there are many votes to be had by visiting a Hindu temple in Pakistan, let alone NWFP.


khare:

If what you say about the image of Muslims among non-muslims is correct, then things are even worse than I imagined. I can only offer my godless prayers for the future of India.

Kaura,

What utter rot. Religions all over the world evolve syncretically-to exclude one`s environment, context, fellow practicers, economic and political influences is an unnatural and false performance.

You cant even logically prove your claim.

Re: # 51
Raja is a caste derived from Jutt tribes of Sials and Kheras.
A very large percentage of Jutts converted to Islam 300-400 yrs ago to retain hold over their lands. As this was the only option for them to be landlords when pressure was applied by the Mughals and their predecessors whole village and Kasba would convert to survive. This is the truth. Many such converts later on dropped their sirnames as they would be targetted as loosers.
Cheema, Gill, Sial, Randhawa, Bajwa, Tarar, Dhillon, Uppal, Chawla, Mehra, Chauhan, Rajput, Ranjha, Raja, Grewal, Ghumman, Panesar and the list is endless.
Lands mean more to them than religion which was so foreign to them. Neither they could understand the language or the religion but the benefit that came with it was tremendous, that is why conversion. During English Raj Islam was made more accessible to such like people due to modern schools of thought and Koran was available in local languages. I remember someone telling me that in Karnal area(home of Liaquat Ali), there was a cluster of five villages of Muslims, when it bacem clear that Karnal would be in India, they approached their neighbourhood villagers also same caster as them telling that they had become Muslim earlier on due to Nawab’s pressure and now would like to become Hindus again and will the Hindus marry their daughters to them?
The Hindu cousins under greed refused, their intention was to aquire the lands. All the Mann Muslims had to migrate to Pakistan, forced by their own.
This story was told to me by an eyewitness.

Same can be compared to Hindus becoming Christians in Bihar, Kerala or TN these days. We had a maid servant in India whose name was Laxmi but she was a Christian, one day I found out that Roman Catholic Church pays them monthly stipend to come to Church and stay as Christian.
All the powerful people have a tendency to convert others to their thinking, wheather it is Constantine or Ghaznavi or Ghauri.
Contrary to what is taught in Pakistan, very limited number of Hindus adopted Islam on their freewill under Sufi influence. If their are any truly converts due Sufi influence then they would be Kayasths, UP baniyas or Biharis.

#70, Dillidost,
Thank you for the information concerning Hindu last names of Indo/Pak Muslims. In my own case, my ancestors fought the Ghoris and Delhi Sultanate and the early Mughals. They started serving Mughals after the time of Akbar and during the reign of Aurangzeb converted to Islam as a demonstration of their admiration and loyalty for that great Rajput Emperor. His bravery is still praised among my Rajput relatives. I think that is one reason why so many of my relatives are named after the Mughal/Rajput Emperors.
Salim Ahmed Chauhan

#71, Dilli,
I am only narrating what I have heard from my grandfather (dada) and several relatives in the Jaipur area. :)

Re: # 68
No Sir,
Humbly disagreeing. He is doing so to gain international publicity to counter Mushraffaf`s stature and become a national leader not just sectarian. It is so obvious, I am surprised that you did not see it that way. Like someone else said, he is Pakistan`s Advani.

Personally, I think Pervez Musharaff is the best leader that Pakistan has in many decades, They are better off under him than any other local Politican or ISI backed General. He is honest in his likes-dislikes. I am impressed with Pervez and his initiatives. He is good for Pakistan and he is good for India too.

Re: # 45
There we go again...sigh! Its the women on the receiving end again,right? Clip it off and stop her from enjoying sex, where as do the guys lose anything with their version of the clipping....?just curious, that`s all.

Re: # 72
Salim,
I am sorry if I sounded harsh in my analysis because all this is history and now you are a Muslim and you have every right to practice your religion as you please. Maybe it was my frustration speaking because I just saw one website about Pakistan`s history and they are white washing all of the history to make it sound like Arab or Islamic.
That is bothersome.
Why can`t Pakistanis accept that a good number of them were Hindus before and now are Muslims and donot distort the history.
Just like Rome has not destroyed their ancient buildings, rather they are preserving all of their heritage and yet they are proud Christians.
Why can`t Pakistan do the same?

Salim: You are a good friend and a good man.

Nevertitti, #74,
Women have always been on the receiving end. They have always been the vessels, the receptacles, the bowl, the womb. It`s called Mother Nature - learn to live with it. :)
Just kidding. Wanted to get you riled up due to your pharoaic name.

Re: # 71
Actually chauhan sirname should not be in my list. As I am aware of your story, I also had a school friend who was Rajput-Muslim but he called himself descended from the Jodha-Bai Raja Man Singh`s sister tree.
His last name was Rathore.

Have you ever been to Jaipur, just curious?

Well...now that Salim Chuhan the Namard is on this board, this page is officially braindead.

Dillidost #75.
No need to be sorry. I never take anything you say as a negative. You are narrating history and history is full of ironies. As far as denial of Hindu ancestry is concerned, I agree with you. Many Paki Muslims (even some Indian ones) think that admitting to Hindu ancestry is somehow degrading. I think it is the fascination with being a Shaikh, Syed, Mughal, or Pathan that is the root of the Muslims` problem. This phenomenon is found mostly in UP, Delhi, and Hyderabad. Somehow, descent from Arab, Persian, Afghan, Turk, or Mongol invaders is considered an element of superiority. I guess it is the Ashfrafi concept - noble vs converted. The same was true in Medina, where you had the Ansars (local converts) and Quraish (original Moose Limbs from Mecca).

I have managed to make Islam a very personal belief for myself. I do not associate myself with any Ummah and select my friends and associates based on personal considerations. I do not believe that all tall people are good, all short people are mean, all light people are sneaky, and all dark people are violent. These are stupid prejudices invented by simple-minded folks because they don`t have the mental ability to investigate further.

Thanks for interacting with me in such a polite and informative manner. I always appreciate your presence on Chowk.

Have a great evening.

Salim

#77, Dillidost,
Yes, I have been to Jaipur. I have several relatives there - both Hindu and Muslim. :)
Salim