Bin Laden And Hiroshima

tahmed you said america saved hundreds of thousands of life by nuking Japan .. isn`t it? Whose lives did it save? Chinese? Who arwere always and even now America`s biggest enemies?

zeemax: re-read what i wrote. where do i say that america said this to save the chinese??

#4 by tahmed32

America did this to save the chinese? Get a reality check you idiot.

#4 by tahmed32

America did this to save the chinese? Get a reality check you idiot.

If we accept that religious fanatics are planning nuclear attacks and that they may eventually succeed, then what? The world shall plunge headlong into a bottomless abyss of reaction and counter reaction whose horror the human mind cannot comprehend. Who will the US retaliate against? Will the US nuke Mecca? The capitals of Muslim states? What will the US and its allies do as their people fear more attacks, will they expel Muslims from the US and Europe or like the Japanese Americans in World War II, herd them into internment camps?


All valid concerns. Quite fair coming from an intellectual like Prof Hoodhboy.

However, consider this:

1) The nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was quite uncalled for and unnecessary as a means to make Japan surrender. Several books have appeared on the subject since then which prove by anectodal as well as documentary evidence that Japan was willing to withdraw from the war anyway before Truman`s decision.

2) Japan had overrun its neighbours, but was no direct or indirect threat to America`s security and existence itself justifying such drastic measures by America.

3) The concept of `Collateral Damage` was introduced, at a scale of several hundred thousands of innocent men, women and children, dead, maimed and scarred for life, forming the doctrine that civilians are expendable in a war between men, whether a territorial, ideological, or political war.

4) In America`s bombing of the Japanese, it was neither territorial nor a political war. It was merely ideological. America nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki to place a stamp of finality on its own ideology that the world must follow in its letter and spirit , nothing else. Japan did. So did most everyone else.

Now:

Bin Laden is following the same doctrine. Innocent civilians are expendable. The phenomenon of suicide bombers has shown that many ordinary young men and women consider their very own lives as expendable as mere foot soldiers. And, this is not talking about muslims at all, neither does religious faith come into it. Japanese were the first suicide bombers, and then the Tamils. Muslims came much later. So religion has nothing to do with suicide bombings as a motivating factor. The only factors are alienation and disenfranchisement.


Prof Hoodhboy is concerned about the world plunging into a bottomless abyss should the Jihadis get their hands on a nuke. What he forgets is that after every major catalysmic event in history, the world has had major power shifts in its course. In which direction will it turn this time around? Only time will tell. However, the current world order is unsustainable and I doubt that America alone can prevent its collapse, though it is fighting hard.

The Bin Ladens of the world (and mind you Bin Laden now is a generic term, not a person) feel that a nuke on american soil is not such a bad idea regardless of the consquences. I tend to think that is the overall direction events are taking.

Rgds.

Re: # 3

hindvi wrote ``Mr hoodbhoy in any non proliferation regime how is compliance to be ensured? there is always a strong incentive to break the rules, because the violater will always win, this in itself is then a further incentive to pre-empt the violater. When an incentive exists it will be taken.
any concrete ideas from game theory?``

I think game theory indeed says something in this regard. Defect-Defect solution in Prisoners` Dilemma (PD) emeges when no communication takes places between the prisoners. Even a little communication between the prisoners can shift the solution to Cooperate-Cooperate. Also, repeated version PD offers Tit-for-Tat as a solution not the Defect-Defect. I believe game theory offers a solution in such disputes i.e. regular discussion and continuing diplomacy on nuclear issues.

Mr. Hoodbhoy: Save some of your tears for the tens of millions chinese who were brutally murdered by the japanese. And be glad that fear of getting the nuclear bomb on his own sweet head caused the japanese emperor to change his mind on fighting to the last japanese fanatic, and thus saved hundreds of thousands of lives.

Mr hoodbhoy in any non proliferation regime how is compliance to be ensured? there is always a strong incentive to break the rules, because the violater will always win, this in itself is then a further incentive to pre-empt the violater. When an incentive exists it will be taken.

any concrete ideas from game theory?

I completely agree with Romair. This is an absolutely brilliant piece. Mr Hoodbhoy is one of the biggest voices of reason in the sub-continent. I heard him speak at the World Social Forum in 2004, before the screening of Anand Patwardhan`s ``War and Peace.`` I am sure that many Chowkies have seen that documentary.

``For this to happen, the civilized world will have to subdue the twin ogres of American imperialism and Islamic radicalism.``

Very sensible article: easily the best one Hoodbhoy has ever submitted to this site.........

There is one anomoly: The American Imperialists do not think they are imperialists and feel their killings are perfectly justified. And the Islamic radicalists do no think they are radicalized and feel their killings are equally justified.........

Before anything can be done, we need to have an across the board acceptance of the fact that any killing - be it of any religion, ethnicity, caste, creed, nationality, gender etc. - has to be equally condemned, regardless of who carries it out. Once that criteria is established, across the board, the rest will be easy.........However, I don`t see that criteria every being accepted............