Finding Kashmir's Pain in London
Murtaza Shibli April 7, 2006
#229 Posted by zeemax on April 16, 2006 3:45:54 am
#228 by swarrier
Thanks for the links. I hadn`t seen these before and these give a complete and I think an unbiased account of what happened.
Jinnah had a leaning towards brinkmanship but he wasn`t good at it. He made several blunders, biggest of which was Pakistan itself. That`s why he died soon after with a broken heart because he had failed at his original aim which he lost by failing at brinkmanship. Prof. Ayesha Jalal has written that he had twice rejected what turned out to be the final version of Pakistan as the `mutilated, moth-eaten Pakistan`.
Jinnah never wanted Pakistan as it eventually turned out to be. In fact, I believe he didn`t want partition at all because he had accepted the cabinet mission plan of May 16 1947 for an undivided India but then the congress backed out. Nehru and Patel were smarter than Jinnah. They both just got rid of the largest opposition Party by kicking them upstairs in the guise of giving them their own country, and then ruled unopposed for decades. These conclusions are of-course debatable.
But the fact remains, the instrument of accession both in case of Junagadh as well as Kashmir was just a piece of paper as your links point out. It was simply `might is right`.
Thus the unresolved Kashmir issue.
Thanks for the links. I hadn`t seen these before and these give a complete and I think an unbiased account of what happened.
Jinnah had a leaning towards brinkmanship but he wasn`t good at it. He made several blunders, biggest of which was Pakistan itself. That`s why he died soon after with a broken heart because he had failed at his original aim which he lost by failing at brinkmanship. Prof. Ayesha Jalal has written that he had twice rejected what turned out to be the final version of Pakistan as the `mutilated, moth-eaten Pakistan`.
Jinnah never wanted Pakistan as it eventually turned out to be. In fact, I believe he didn`t want partition at all because he had accepted the cabinet mission plan of May 16 1947 for an undivided India but then the congress backed out. Nehru and Patel were smarter than Jinnah. They both just got rid of the largest opposition Party by kicking them upstairs in the guise of giving them their own country, and then ruled unopposed for decades. These conclusions are of-course debatable.
But the fact remains, the instrument of accession both in case of Junagadh as well as Kashmir was just a piece of paper as your links point out. It was simply `might is right`.
Thus the unresolved Kashmir issue.
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#230 Posted by swarrier on April 17, 2006 11:13:15 am
Re: # 229
Perhaps an undivided India would have been in everybody`s interest. That is not to say there would not have been problems, problems are to be expected under such disparity. However the hatred that the partition gave rise to and sustained may not have occurred for one, and secondly perhaps there would have been greater co-operation within . One can never say.
Perhaps an undivided India would have been in everybody`s interest. That is not to say there would not have been problems, problems are to be expected under such disparity. However the hatred that the partition gave rise to and sustained may not have occurred for one, and secondly perhaps there would have been greater co-operation within . One can never say.
#232 Posted by kaami on April 17, 2006 3:57:05 pm
Re: # 230
but in the end it comes down to us people....
we could`ve hated each other even then
and we can live in peace even now if we really want to .... and i just hope we do
but in the end it comes down to us people....
we could`ve hated each other even then
and we can live in peace even now if we really want to .... and i just hope we do
#228 Posted by swarrier on April 15, 2006 6:49:14 pm
Zeemax
In light of your comments on Junagadh , etc, I decided to search the web for some knowledge. I prefer a good book and I shall look for something when I am in India this summer. I have neglected India`s history in the last few years, so I really need to read up on this stuff.
I found a couple of pages that may be of some interest and some pointers to books . You may have seen them before. It`s from Frontline and Indian magazine with a leftist bent. I do not always approve of it since I have seen them twist some facts as good leftists will, .. my wife assures me all journalists and newspapers do it. But then we have to trust somebody ......
Here are the links.
http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1820/18200780.htm
and part 2
http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1821/18210760.htm
I have managed to re-read Summer in Algiers again and will post a bit of the last part on another board . I feel it is a very good paragraph.
In light of your comments on Junagadh , etc, I decided to search the web for some knowledge. I prefer a good book and I shall look for something when I am in India this summer. I have neglected India`s history in the last few years, so I really need to read up on this stuff.
I found a couple of pages that may be of some interest and some pointers to books . You may have seen them before. It`s from Frontline and Indian magazine with a leftist bent. I do not always approve of it since I have seen them twist some facts as good leftists will, .. my wife assures me all journalists and newspapers do it. But then we have to trust somebody ......
Here are the links.
http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1820/18200780.htm
and part 2
http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1821/18210760.htm
I have managed to re-read Summer in Algiers again and will post a bit of the last part on another board . I feel it is a very good paragraph.
#227 Posted by bharath on April 15, 2006 6:26:15 pm
re:226 Arjun_m
this Adnan Naseem character`s concluding statement:
``It is not yet too late to plan ahead with an eye to our long term goal of building a modern and enlightened society in Pakistan.``
After 60 yrs of war mongering and military adventurism, this could be accomplished by waving some magic wand.
If Kaami had written an article about IT industry probably this is how he would have concluded:
``We shall not rest until the innocent suffering Muslims of Kashmir are liberated from Indian occupation, Allah-o-akbar``
this Adnan Naseem character`s concluding statement:
``It is not yet too late to plan ahead with an eye to our long term goal of building a modern and enlightened society in Pakistan.``
After 60 yrs of war mongering and military adventurism, this could be accomplished by waving some magic wand.
If Kaami had written an article about IT industry probably this is how he would have concluded:
``We shall not rest until the innocent suffering Muslims of Kashmir are liberated from Indian occupation, Allah-o-akbar``
#226 Posted by arjun_m on April 15, 2006 2:11:42 pm
#223 by kaami on April 15, 2006 10:44am PT
Hello paki...you were saying..
Where does Pakistan stand?
ADNAN NASEEM
The abysmal state of affairs in the education sector is reflected in the stunted growth of the IT industry in Pakistan. According to Pakistan Software Export Board (PSEB), the number of IT professionals in Pakistan during 2004-05 was 75,000. The number of IT graduates produced in Pakistan every year is 5500, out of whom hardly 10 per cent measure up to international quality requirements. By contrast, about 120,000 high quality IT professionals graduate from Indian universities every year, while the number of IT software and services professionals is close to a million. During FY 2004-05 the IT industry in India generated total revenue of $ 28 billion out of which exports were worth $ 17.9 billion. On the other hand, IT enabled services export from Pakistan during 2004-05 was a paltry $ 48.5 million.
Hello paki...you were saying..
Where does Pakistan stand?
ADNAN NASEEM
The abysmal state of affairs in the education sector is reflected in the stunted growth of the IT industry in Pakistan. According to Pakistan Software Export Board (PSEB), the number of IT professionals in Pakistan during 2004-05 was 75,000. The number of IT graduates produced in Pakistan every year is 5500, out of whom hardly 10 per cent measure up to international quality requirements. By contrast, about 120,000 high quality IT professionals graduate from Indian universities every year, while the number of IT software and services professionals is close to a million. During FY 2004-05 the IT industry in India generated total revenue of $ 28 billion out of which exports were worth $ 17.9 billion. On the other hand, IT enabled services export from Pakistan during 2004-05 was a paltry $ 48.5 million.
#231 Posted by kaami on April 17, 2006 3:38:23 pm
Re: # 226
i still don`t get it...... why are u even bothered to collect these stats.... i know for a fact that indian IT industry is much larger than the pakistani It industry
and..... did i ever say that pakistanis were any better than india in the IT industry ???
the only thing that i said was that call centres do not spell IT..... it`s got a much broader spectrum .... with call centres being somewhere at the bottom
and yes..... i hope kashmiris will find peace soon... Allah-o-Akbar ;)
i still don`t get it...... why are u even bothered to collect these stats.... i know for a fact that indian IT industry is much larger than the pakistani It industry
and..... did i ever say that pakistanis were any better than india in the IT industry ???
the only thing that i said was that call centres do not spell IT..... it`s got a much broader spectrum .... with call centres being somewhere at the bottom
and yes..... i hope kashmiris will find peace soon... Allah-o-Akbar ;)
#225 Posted by arjun_m on April 15, 2006 1:02:29 pm
#223 by kaami on April 15, 2006 10:44am PT
Ring Ring
the paki version of that is : ring ring, we`re good to go? ok..allah-o-akbar...(suicide bomber blows himself up in subway)...
did you search the intel india jobs website to see what kinds of jobs they`re listing? don`t...it`ll be really really depressing for you...
Ring Ring
the paki version of that is : ring ring, we`re good to go? ok..allah-o-akbar...(suicide bomber blows himself up in subway)...
did you search the intel india jobs website to see what kinds of jobs they`re listing? don`t...it`ll be really really depressing for you...
#221 Posted by zeemax on April 14, 2006 12:44:45 pm
#218 by swarrier Re: # 214
Yes Sheikh Abdullah did not see eye to eye with neither Jinnah nor Hari Singh. But it was clear the population did not want to be part of India therefore the standstill agreement with Pakistan to finally decide without accession to anyone. In the meantime India took Junagadh and Hyderabad by force so Pakistan attempted the same but failed. And no, Shahnawaz Bhutto had pursuaded Nawab of Junagadh to accede to Pak, not the other way around.
Also the plebiscite was to be held only after India and Pakistan withdrew their troops. Since neither side have done so.....
That was the tricky part. If either side withdrew, the other would have rushed in. That`s why no plebiscite was ever possible.
I remember some years ago on American Television , Benazir Bhutto saying Kashmir has no future as an Independent country , its future lies only as a part of Pakistan.
She may have said that. It is quite correct that independent Kashmir would not really be viable. Perhaps another Bhutan, but that`s not good enough, is it?
Yes Sheikh Abdullah did not see eye to eye with neither Jinnah nor Hari Singh. But it was clear the population did not want to be part of India therefore the standstill agreement with Pakistan to finally decide without accession to anyone. In the meantime India took Junagadh and Hyderabad by force so Pakistan attempted the same but failed. And no, Shahnawaz Bhutto had pursuaded Nawab of Junagadh to accede to Pak, not the other way around.
Also the plebiscite was to be held only after India and Pakistan withdrew their troops. Since neither side have done so.....
That was the tricky part. If either side withdrew, the other would have rushed in. That`s why no plebiscite was ever possible.
I remember some years ago on American Television , Benazir Bhutto saying Kashmir has no future as an Independent country , its future lies only as a part of Pakistan.
She may have said that. It is quite correct that independent Kashmir would not really be viable. Perhaps another Bhutan, but that`s not good enough, is it?
#220 Posted by zeemax on April 14, 2006 12:32:19 pm
#219 by bharath
.. only one question from me (don`t evade by saying I`m switching topics)
What moral justification did you have to conduct the biggest MUSLIM GENOCIDE of
20th century when u killed a coupled of million Bengalis in 1971? ...
LoL ... That`s creating a false dilemma to avoid the original issue. We `re talking about disputed acessions. Not what happened in 1971. But I`ll answer anyway. E.Pak was an insurgency due to specific reasons and not a dispute from the beginning. Next, it wasn`t a couple of million but a fraction of that. Still an atrocity, noone denies that. It was an insurgency attempted to put down awkwardly. How many people have you killed in Kashmir?
Now please don`t change the subject.
.. only one question from me (don`t evade by saying I`m switching topics)
What moral justification did you have to conduct the biggest MUSLIM GENOCIDE of
20th century when u killed a coupled of million Bengalis in 1971? ...
LoL ... That`s creating a false dilemma to avoid the original issue. We `re talking about disputed acessions. Not what happened in 1971. But I`ll answer anyway. E.Pak was an insurgency due to specific reasons and not a dispute from the beginning. Next, it wasn`t a couple of million but a fraction of that. Still an atrocity, noone denies that. It was an insurgency attempted to put down awkwardly. How many people have you killed in Kashmir?
Now please don`t change the subject.
#222 Posted by bharath on April 14, 2006 6:42:01 pm
Re: # 220
You did not give a straight answer, not surprising.
30,000 innocent Hindus killed by the Muslim terrorists
40,000 innocent Muslims killed by the same Muslim terrorists
simply because they did not obey the terrorists and their masters across the border
20,000 Muslim terrorists
=90,000
You did not give a straight answer, not surprising.
30,000 innocent Hindus killed by the Muslim terrorists
40,000 innocent Muslims killed by the same Muslim terrorists
simply because they did not obey the terrorists and their masters across the border
20,000 Muslim terrorists
=90,000
#219 Posted by bharath on April 13, 2006 7:59:11 am
#214 by zeemax on April 12, 2006 11:45pm PT
blah blah balah and then funny dumbo assumptions that I am evading some questions, raw nerve blah blah. I will asnswer those questions, and then you answer my question.
Your question1:
What Pakistan did in Kashmir any different from what India did in Junagadh and Hyderabad?
My answer:
Not different.
Your question2:
What moral justification did India have in those two cases?
My answer:
None.
Very funny. When Patel offered to cede Kashmir in lieu of Hyderabad, greedy pukis said no and lost both!!
Now you have to answer only one question from me (don`t evade by saying I`m switching topics)
What moral justification did you have to conduct the biggest MUSLIM GENOCIDE of
20th century when u killed a coupled of million Bengalis in 1971?
blah blah balah and then funny dumbo assumptions that I am evading some questions, raw nerve blah blah. I will asnswer those questions, and then you answer my question.
Your question1:
What Pakistan did in Kashmir any different from what India did in Junagadh and Hyderabad?
My answer:
Not different.
Your question2:
What moral justification did India have in those two cases?
My answer:
None.
Very funny. When Patel offered to cede Kashmir in lieu of Hyderabad, greedy pukis said no and lost both!!
Now you have to answer only one question from me (don`t evade by saying I`m switching topics)
What moral justification did you have to conduct the biggest MUSLIM GENOCIDE of
20th century when u killed a coupled of million Bengalis in 1971?
#217 Posted by arjun_m on April 13, 2006 7:08:33 am
#216 by zeemax on April 13, 2006 4:08am PT
I`ll give you an example. Each and Every culprit involved in the suicide attacks on Musharraf as well as PM Shaukat Aziz was found within a few weeks, and most of them already tried summarily and hanged,
You conveniently left out the fact that a lot of these guys were from jihadi organizations(of the indigenous freedom struggle that only received moral and diplomatic support fame)..or more accurately, jihadi organizations armed, trained and funded by the paki army to fight in Kashmir..and a few of them were from the PAF..
So if the paki army caught the islamist nuts who tried to whack mushy/shortcut, it`s cause these people were their own people..their ideological allies.
For too long you`ve radicalized your own population in the hopes that you`d get a critical mass of jihadis who`d then volunteer to go do your dirty work in afghanistan and kashmir..this is just blowback, pure and simple..
I`ll give you an example. Each and Every culprit involved in the suicide attacks on Musharraf as well as PM Shaukat Aziz was found within a few weeks, and most of them already tried summarily and hanged,
You conveniently left out the fact that a lot of these guys were from jihadi organizations(of the indigenous freedom struggle that only received moral and diplomatic support fame)..or more accurately, jihadi organizations armed, trained and funded by the paki army to fight in Kashmir..and a few of them were from the PAF..
So if the paki army caught the islamist nuts who tried to whack mushy/shortcut, it`s cause these people were their own people..their ideological allies.
For too long you`ve radicalized your own population in the hopes that you`d get a critical mass of jihadis who`d then volunteer to go do your dirty work in afghanistan and kashmir..this is just blowback, pure and simple..
#216 Posted by zeemax on April 13, 2006 4:08:23 am
#215 by majumdar
... but there is an organisation behind the culprit the culprit which can be smashed....No action has been taken against LeT, JeM, HuM and numerous jihadist/sectarian terrorists operating in Pakistan.
Majumdar, you are quite correct. The organisations behind each of these incidents ALSO perform the `agencies` nefarious tasks, so Musharraf will never destroy them. These very same organisations help in keeping Musharraf propped up by relieving direct Military involvement in needling India over Kashmir and creating distractions.
I`ll give you an example. Each and Every culprit involved in the suicide attacks on Musharraf as well as PM Shaukat Aziz was found within a few weeks, and most of them already tried summarily and hanged, with the kingpins handed over to US. However, NONE of those responsible for sectarian targeted killings and massacres; and there have been dozens of major incidents in the last year alone; has ever been found.
Does that say something? To me it says a great deal. In my knowledge of Pakistani secret services, hardly anyone is out of direct reach. They always know whodunnit. When they want to find someone, it is no problem at all. But whether they want to find someone, that is another story.
... but there is an organisation behind the culprit the culprit which can be smashed....No action has been taken against LeT, JeM, HuM and numerous jihadist/sectarian terrorists operating in Pakistan.
Majumdar, you are quite correct. The organisations behind each of these incidents ALSO perform the `agencies` nefarious tasks, so Musharraf will never destroy them. These very same organisations help in keeping Musharraf propped up by relieving direct Military involvement in needling India over Kashmir and creating distractions.
I`ll give you an example. Each and Every culprit involved in the suicide attacks on Musharraf as well as PM Shaukat Aziz was found within a few weeks, and most of them already tried summarily and hanged, with the kingpins handed over to US. However, NONE of those responsible for sectarian targeted killings and massacres; and there have been dozens of major incidents in the last year alone; has ever been found.
Does that say something? To me it says a great deal. In my knowledge of Pakistani secret services, hardly anyone is out of direct reach. They always know whodunnit. When they want to find someone, it is no problem at all. But whether they want to find someone, that is another story.
#215 Posted by majumdar on April 13, 2006 12:52:19 am
Zeemax sahib
(Police are saying it was a suicide bomber. The people acually at the scene are saying it was not and it was a remote controlled device and the police are just blaming it on suicide bombers because that would put an end to any investigation. Culprits gone you see? )
Culprits maybe gone but there is an organisation behind the culprit which can be smashed.
Tahmed sahib recently blasted me for opposing the Pak army`s action in NWFP/Baluchistan saying that as an Indian I should support Pak army action against terrorists. While I agree that Mush is taking on Al Qaeda in NWFP, the Pak Army`s WOT has been selective. No action has been taken against LeT, JeM, HuM and numerous jihadist/sectarian terrorists operating in Pakistan. Taking them on and destroying them would be a piece of cake as compared to taking out AQ. Sadly the price for this selective WOT was paid by innocent victims- both in Varanasi and Karachi.
Regards
(Police are saying it was a suicide bomber. The people acually at the scene are saying it was not and it was a remote controlled device and the police are just blaming it on suicide bombers because that would put an end to any investigation. Culprits gone you see? )
Culprits maybe gone but there is an organisation behind the culprit which can be smashed.
Tahmed sahib recently blasted me for opposing the Pak army`s action in NWFP/Baluchistan saying that as an Indian I should support Pak army action against terrorists. While I agree that Mush is taking on Al Qaeda in NWFP, the Pak Army`s WOT has been selective. No action has been taken against LeT, JeM, HuM and numerous jihadist/sectarian terrorists operating in Pakistan. Taking them on and destroying them would be a piece of cake as compared to taking out AQ. Sadly the price for this selective WOT was paid by innocent victims- both in Varanasi and Karachi.
Regards
#214 Posted by zeemax on April 12, 2006 11:45:29 pm
#183 by masanamuthu Re: # 179
Thanks, I hear it is the work of ``suicide bombers``..
Police are saying it was a suicide bomber. The people acually at the scene are saying it was not and it was a remote controlled device and the police are just blaming it on suicide bombers because that would put an end to any investigation. Culprits gone you see?
#185 by bharath /#186 by dharma
Instead of lecturing me about “universal principles” and diplomatic, strategic, economic clout etc., why didn`t you answer my question about how is what Pakistan did in Kashmir any different from what India did in Junagadh and Hyderabad? What moral justification did India have in those two cases? I`ll answer my own question because you won`t answer it. Those two were hindu majority states with Muslim rulers who wanted accession to Pak, while Kashmir was the opposite. Both used force. India succeeded, Pakistan failed. Thereby the dispute and thereby an article 370 to entice the Kashmiris into remaining with India which didn`t work.
On an aside .. looks like kaami hit a raw nerve too !
Thanks, I hear it is the work of ``suicide bombers``..
Police are saying it was a suicide bomber. The people acually at the scene are saying it was not and it was a remote controlled device and the police are just blaming it on suicide bombers because that would put an end to any investigation. Culprits gone you see?
#185 by bharath /#186 by dharma
Instead of lecturing me about “universal principles” and diplomatic, strategic, economic clout etc., why didn`t you answer my question about how is what Pakistan did in Kashmir any different from what India did in Junagadh and Hyderabad? What moral justification did India have in those two cases? I`ll answer my own question because you won`t answer it. Those two were hindu majority states with Muslim rulers who wanted accession to Pak, while Kashmir was the opposite. Both used force. India succeeded, Pakistan failed. Thereby the dispute and thereby an article 370 to entice the Kashmiris into remaining with India which didn`t work.
On an aside .. looks like kaami hit a raw nerve too !
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