Finding Kashmir's Pain in London

#101 by dharma on April 9, 2006 12:58pm PT


Resettle kashmir and change its demographics, give free land to businesses to develop it etc.


Absolutely...and it`s stupidity, not generosity that makes India do that..I`m sick and tired of hearing about how the ``Kashmiris`` are alienated..screw that..a majority of Indians feel the same way about the ``Kashmiris``..

Resettle the flood of people coming into Bombay to Kashmir...change the demographics in less than 5 years..WTF can the pakis do? they`ve changed the demographics of ``Azad`` Kashmir and given away part of Kashmir to the chicoms without any compunction...

dharma

Let`s not kid ourselves with delusions of generosity. India is behaving exactly how its nature dicatates (all nations and all of us always do).

To behave differently, India has to change herself.

(Of course, apologies are due to unreformed Skinnerians)

Re: # 102
kalachkra
I dont mean India has been intentionally generous. The status quo is too generous to others involved because of india`s weak response. It is not playing all its cards. World will be only too happy if we are tough on a muslim insurgency and make them democratic and multi cultural by whatever means necessary. It is a huge favor to humanity which is held hostage by a few inhuman beareded terrorists. Islamists by definition dont support human freedom - they supress independent thought, exploit women and children and weild power through violece and mainipulation of fear. We have to make all these islamic socities democratic so that common man can have voice.

Re: # 103
``We are not playing the cards you have in mind because, given the nature of our society, we cannot play them, and could not have played them.``
we could have played them, we can play them now as majority of indians including indian muslim dont sympathise with kashmiri muslims. Infact they see them as oppressors instead of being oppressed because they kicked out their minorities and shown us how minorities have to be treated by example. We can follow their example and noone cries foul. After all you get what you deserve.

Actually india is being too generous, being the stronger side and just accepting LOC
as border and not claiming the whole of kashmir including chinese occupied part.
The simplest solution is to repeat what chinese have done with Tibet. Resettle
kashmir and change its demographics, give free land to businesses to develop it etc.
There is no country in this world except for the ismalic ones which will oppose
this strategy. In the case of tamils in srilanka there were genuine grivances for their
asking separate homeland. They were dicriminated by the majority by quota systems.
In India quota systems always work for minorities. Mulsim kashmiris enjoy more rights
than oridinary indians legally. They may not enjoy as many rights now becuase
it is infested with insurgency. Even then Indian govt is not as heavy handed as
some other govts like UK and US could be in case of insurgency. US and UK would
never talk to terrorists like Indian govt tries to do now and then. All kashmir problems are
self created by India by showing weak responses to terrorism. we should learn from china, US, UK and other strong countries. People are entitiled to their constitutional rights only when they respect the constitution.

#90 by Ras on April 8, 2006 6:57pm PT


For my Indian friends who continue to go for the jugular
on Kashmir, a word of caution.


Indians aren`t going for the jugular..they don`t care about paki kashmir like pakis care(or pretend to care) about Indian KAshmir


The only victory that can happen is when
all three sides walk away with something


India will never give up land and Pakiland won`t be satisfied with anything less than a transfer of land..being that Pakiland isn`t any position to change the status quo, Pakiland will have to reconcile with reality..


and the Gora that started it all loses in arms sales.


Very interesting consider that India spends way below Pakistan as a % of GDP..and India has institutions like the IITs and companies like Infosys to show for it while all Pakiland has are the madrassahs..


Kashmir is headed for a ``LOC Plus`` solution.


Yup...LoC + Pakiland accepts reality..

Kabuliwallah

In relation to Kashmir, India has ever had only one cause for national shame: Nehru`s liberalism and failure to understand the essential respectability of religious thuggery.

But he had Fabian socialism and Gandhi`s utterly naive religiosity to share the blame for his costly errors of judgement.

The problem with the Pakis is that they would like the Kasmiris to have Self Determination; the one thing which they themselves do not have. In fact, the Kashmiris in India are as free as any other community in India. I was there last year. I saw the atmosphere there was alike any other Indian city with Muslim majority i.e. overly religious. I think this point about the Muslims is not debated throughly. All the time the Muslims are seen calling the Prophet on some pretext or the other. It would be good for the Muslims to have less of religion and more of education and mixing with other religions.

Kabuliwallah....thankfully majority of the Indian people are not idiots like you.

#89 Kabuliwallah

Let me quote the following to you from another board:

[My professor who taught religion used to say ``Proof of the pudding is in its eating``...practitioners of a faith need to take responsibility for the situation that their religion finds itself in...]

Do you agree that there is Muslim extremism going on in Kashmir and do you think that its supporters (in Kashmir and Pakistan) should take responsibility for it?

A simple ``yes`` or ``no`` will do - no need for a bhashan on the price of ration!

#89

``Indians should part as friends with the Islamic world and close the chapter of our long, fruitful as well as scarred relationship with our Islamic neighbors.``

That`s got to be the most amusing statement I`ve come across in this discussion so far. India has cordial relations with ALL Islamic countries in the world, EXCEPT for Pakistan. Even the feeble noises that Islamic countries used to make on Kashmir at the behest of Pakistan have now disappeared.

If anything, Pakistan should disband itself and it`s constituent states should merge with India & Afghanistan or become outright independent states. The world will then return to the status quo that existed for thousands of years and will rid itself of terrorist problems 99% of which originate from Pakistan.

#90 by Ras

Ras sahib,

I am sure you are well-intentioned. But if I were you, I would not start booking any quick tickets for Delhi or any place inside India so soon.

The only people who have been tooting the martial horn in the subcontinent have been the Pakistani khakis - remember the hot shot who predicted that India will ``surrender in one hour`` as soon as those Pakistani nukes started falling? How many Pakistani ``intellectuals`` had the guts to challenge him. What the heck happened to him - doesn`t he still hold a cushy job courtesy of Mushy?

Have the ``intelligent`` Pakistanis taken leave of their senses?

The total moral bankruptcy stares me in face too directly to look any other way.

The inability of the Pakistani crowds here to see their own religious bigotry is beyond anything I could ever have imagined before coming to this site. What is this with you guys that you see the killings taking place by your army`s paid agents and not be shaken - and then turn around and call those cowardly killers ``freedom fighters``?!

And don`t give me that crap about education levels - the educated bigots are the worst of the lot! What kind of utter moron calls the killer of civilians ``freedom fighters``. And what kind of ``educated`` person sees not the connection between infiltration followed by crackdown followed by damage to the population?

I will tell you what kind - the kind that is fixated by that ``green`` vision - and I don`t mean the greenbacks!

You may delude yourself that it is out of the ``goodness of the heart`` that the Pakistani khakis are negotiating. I don`t buy it. It is the same bunch which was always there and had the same chances for negotiating all the time. They are negotiating NOW because they KNOW when they have lost. I have no concerns for their ``sensitivities`` or for those of their supporters (misguided or otherwise) in the subcontinent - no matter which side of the border they live on - and whether they live in Kashmir or in Pakistan or in England or even in India! You know how it is - there are some creatures which only come out at night. And in daylight they simply hide. Those who plan and conduct the dastardly deeds and hide in Pakistan remind me of such creatures. The 9/11 was the breaking of daylight. The same people who have been at the root of the troubles all along have suddenly started shrinking as daylight washes over them.

They deserve no respect now any more than they did before - at a level somewhere between nil and zero.

The simple fact is that the country of India has taken every punch this lousy crowd has delivered - inside and out - and is still ticking quite well. And it can handle quite a few more - as far as Pakistan is concerned you know the story better than I.

And the real reason the problems have lasted so long are even simpler. Like racism in the USA which went on for another hundred years after the civil war, a problem can never be solved if those suffering from it refuse to admit it.

Pakistan`s problem is - and has always been - about its state religion being ``better`` than that of the next guy. Because if one does not say so openly then the next question becomes - what was the big idea behind this whole fiasco? And that becomes a REAL difficult question to answer.

Well, one can not have it both ways! It is like an alcoholic going to a rehab center and refusing to admit he has a problem with the bottle. You guys are too fixated on that green bottle for too long to even START admitting the cause of your problems (and the resulting some problems of ours). As long as such fixation remains, every negotiation will be simply a tactic - a bit of song and dance before the next round!

Only now the Indians (and the world) already know the routine and are not impressed by it and more importantly, are not going to be surprised by it!

There are operations that require delicacy. Throwing in ``wishy washy`` language is not one of them - it just shows the chicken in you - the chickenry whose persistence over the last sixty years has eaten you guys up from inside and made your souls so hollow that all of you are damned as damned can be - and are already dead a thousand times over before you hit that restful coffin!

This whole ``delicate stage`` thing does not wash with me. Save it for the birds - the pink flamingos perhaps!

For my Indian friends who continue to go for the jugular

on Kashmir, a word of caution.

This is not the time to toot your Martial horn.

Kashmir is at its most delicate phase since 1989.

NOBODY has won this war, certainly not India.

And Kashmiris are not going anywhere.

The only victory that can happen is when

all three sides walk away with something

and the Gora that started it all loses in arms sales.

Kashmir is headed for a ``LOC Plus`` solution.

If it happens, I`ll come back to Delhi again and

throw a party at Karim`s or (for the non-Veg crowd)

or share sweets at Ghatewala.

Kashmir needs a lasting peace more than anything else.

When we achieve that, the Lassi is on me.

Ras

Re: #90 by Ras on April 8, 2006 6:57pm PT

``For my Indian friends who continue to go for the jugular

on Kashmir, a word of caution.

This is not the time to toot your Martial horn``


One doesn`t see any tooting of Martial horns by Indians here. People
are only responding to the humbug postings- propagnda on Indian
army`s atrocities, advice on India should better behave, be honest, etc, etc.

If they can loosen up the LOC and people on both sides can live peacefully
and as a democracy, who is going to object?

Re: # 90

Ras Sahib:

I am with you. I grew up in Nizamuddin East not too far from Karims.

Anil Kapuria

Dear Murtaza,

as an Indian, I am extremely ashamed of the behavior of the Indian state towards Kashmiri Muslims, people the state claims are `Indian citizens`. Nationalism has blinded my countrymen to the agony and pain of Kashmiri Muslims. An essentially peaceful, non confrontational and non violent people, Indians, today are apathetic to the killings of innocent Kashmiri Muslims caught in the crossfire between the security apparatus and Muslim militants. The heavy handedness and brutality of the military and security forces is inexcusable. The militants are not expected to adhere to UN charter of human rights because they do not speak in the name of any govt. But the military and security forces should adhere to these values because they act in the name of the Indian people. That they have failed to do so is an indication that India has failed Kashmiri Muslims. Spending billions of dollars in Kashmir on infrastructure and other carrots is not enough when Kashmiri Muslims fear for their lives and honor whenever they step out.

There is not nearly enough exposure among Indians to the atrocities perpetrated in Kashmir. Whatever there is, is skewed in the nationalist point of view. There is no trailblazing journalism of the Vietnam kind which changed attitudes in America and brought Americans in the streets and the Vietnam war to an end. Indians need to be exposed to the realities of the war in Kashmir. They need to see the gory victims of security forces` brutality, not just the victims of militants. It is only then that the Indian masses will wake up to the situation in Kashmir. The vast majority of Indians have never been to Kashmir and form their opinion of the state from the media which while free and brave in many issues, sticks to the govt. version when it comes to Kashmir. There is no independent initiative and thought when it comes to Kashmir or other insurrections elsewhere in India for that matter.

India cannot afford to delay the settlement of various grievances in Kashmir and the north-east. For its own sake, India needs to settle the Kashmir Muslim issue in a peaceful and satisfactory manner for all the parties involved, Muslim and non-Muslim. Indians should part as friends with the Islamic world and close the chapter of our long, fruitful as well as scarred relationship with our Islamic neighbors. Only then can the Indian state concentrate completely and wholeheartedly in solving the problems of the Indian people, people who are proud to be Indian and are not forced to be Indian. India needs to move on and fulfill its promise. Best regards and best of luck,

Kabuli